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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Hanan on Monday 09 June 08 14:59 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help me with a problem I'm having?
I am having great trouble finding a birth certificate for David Donaldson Wyllie b Abt. 1882(?). His mother was Jeanie Wyllie - father unknown.
I've found plenty of David Wyllie births but none are the right person.
(I can't find his mothers birth either.)
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Hi Hanan
Amy idea what part of Scotland?
I can see 2 David Donaldson WYLLIE's in the 1891 Census, father (b 1860 Bothwell Lanark), and son (b 1890 Bothwell) - but your chap falls in the middle of these two in birth years....
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Ambly,
Not entirely sure where he was born. I think it could be Glasgow (but it could also be Auchinleck).
I have his 1891 Census for Dumfries, his mother's has remarried by then and is a "Roberts" - David is at home.
I also have his 1901 census. They are now living in Cumnock. Both list David as being born in Glasgow.
Hanan
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Just so you don't waste credits on viewing this one. There's two David Donaldson WYLIEs born 1882 on SP. One Bridgeton (Glasgow) and the other Bothwell.
However, I think they're both the same person. The Glasgow entry gives parents as John WYLIE and Jane M.S. WHITELAW. Since the father was resident in Bothwell (as per birth cert.), I suspect they registered it there too. :-\
There's others born in Scotland with the same name but none around the same time.
hume24
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Hi Hume24,
I have that certificate. I also checked out John & Jane Whitelaw's Marriage. Doesn't seem to be our David. This is a tricky one I know...
Jeanie wasn't married at the time of David's birth. According to her marriage certs her parents were John Wyllie & Jane Allan.
I have Jeanie getting married twice during her lifetime first to William Roberts (not sure when) then James Smith (Aug 1908). David remained Wyllie until his death. One
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Have you checked for David Donaldson births? It's likely he was named after his father (as was done at the time), and he (his father) was there when registering the birth. Just a thought. :-\
Also, can you post the census entries for David just in case it helps?
hume24 :)
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No I haven't tried searching for David Donaldson - good idea, perhaps this is the answer. Here is what I have on David;
1891 Census - 13 Friars Venal
William Roberts Head 32 Born England (Hawker)
Jeanie Roberts Wife 26 Born Glasgow
David Roberts Son 5 Born Glasgow (Scholar)
William Roberts Son 2 Born Annan
1901 Census - Elbow Lane, Old Cumnock
William Roberts Head 47 Born England (Masons Labourer)
Jeanie Roberts Wife 34 Born Glasgow
David Roberts Son 17 Born Glasgow (Mines Labourer)
Mary Roberts Dau 10 Born Dumfries
George Roberts Son 8 Born Dumfries
Henry Roberts Son 5 Born Dumfries
Jacquie Roberts Dau 3 Born Dumfries
Marriage
David Donaldson Wyllie & Mary Campbell, 7th Nov 1902, Old Cumnock.
Parents listed as Jeanie Wyllie (now married to William Roberts, Masons Labourer)
Death
David Donaldson Wyllie, Stone Miner (Married to Mary Campbell), 1st Oct 1946, Bute Hosp Cumnock, Parents Jeanie Wyllie Domestic Servant afterwards married to 1st William Roberts Masons Labourer, 2nd James Smith Coal Miner (deceased)
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I've had a look for David Donaldson, no luck. I can't find any with a mother Jeanie Wyllie. :'(
Not even a Janet, Jane, Jessie, Wylie or other spelling combination.
I am starting to wonder if he was born outside Scotland. The obvious possibility would be England. Does anyone have access to English births and could have a quick check for me?
Thanks
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Freebdm for English BDM records is virtually complete for this time period. There are 3 David Wylies (nothing spelt Wyllie)
June 1882 lanchester - Co Durham
March 1885 whitehaven - Cumbria/Cumberland border
March 1886 Cockermouth (David Wylie Wylie?) Cumbria/Cumberland border
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
Trish
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Thanks Trish,
One of these could be my David even with the different spelling, his mother was illiterate.
His Mother Jeanie married a Englishman (William Roberts) in Glasgow Apr 1882. I wonder if I find where in England William was born, perhaps that will give me a clue to whether one of these is David. :-\
Hanan
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Eventually there will be indexes with at least the mother's name - but otherwise it is tricky to know which, if any, are possible, although your marriage date has me confused.
If Jeanie married William Roberts in 1882, are you sure David didn't belong to him? In 1891 he is listed as 5 and 1901 17 - both giving a birth date after 1882 ??? The ages are certainly strange?
There are quite a few William Roberts in 1881 :-\ in England, or was he in Glasgow by then?
Trish
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Hi Trish,
Everything to do with David Donaldson has me confused. :-[
I don't think David belonged to William. If you read what it says on his Marriage and Death cert, it sounds like he doesn't;
MARRIAGE: Parents listed as Jeanie Wyllie (now married to William Roberts, Masons Labourer)
DEATH CERT: Parents Jeanie Wyllie Domestic Servant afterwards married to 1st William Roberts Masons Labourer, 2nd James Smith Coal Miner (deceased)
David went onto have 10 children after he got married and one thing that has interested me is that 8 of them have middle name of "Donaldson" and only one with "Roberts". I'm guessing, although I can not confirm his biological father may be a Donaldson?
The change of ages are confusing aren't they. David was illiterate like his mother, so I'm guess that is why they changed so much.
I do not have an 1881 census showing William, I don't know where he was then.
Hanan
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Sorry should have said.
I've checked out births registered "David Donaldson" and none (in Scotland) have a Jeanie Wyllie as the mother. :'(
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Hi, i just found this site. I am david donaldson wyllie. My family are from auchinleck and there is a roberts connection also. My grandfather was thomas donaldson wyllie born 1912? his father was david buried in auchinleck.david was married to mary campbell i think.
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I just spoke to my father and it seems its my great grandfather you are looking for.
Its been a while since your post so i wonder if you are still looking.
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Hi Dave
I've sent you a PM seems we have a connection.
Thanks for contacting me.
kind regards
hanan
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(http://)
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(http://)
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Dave, think this was taken auchinleck may 1941. ???
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Thats when thomas and rose were married, may 41.
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Hi, I have been researching my family history and have been struggling to find a birth certificate for my Great Grandfather David Donaldson Wyllie, he was married to Mary Campbell on 7/11/1902 in St Johns Chapel Cumnock. My Grandmothers name was Jeannie Roberts Wyllie born 23/05/1905 in Elbow Lane Old Cumnock. I would be really grateful if you had any information about him or the extended family. The information I already have ties in with the information posted, so feel I am on the right track. Many thanks.
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hello cousin Betty,he was also my gt grandfather. but we don't have any more information as yet as far as i know. his son thomas was my grandfather.
Dave.
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Thanks Dave for the prompt reply, I have tried for a few years to find David's birth certificate, could find no trace even with the info from his death certificate. I remember as a young girl visiting Great Granny Mary Wyllie in Auchinleck, prior to her death in June 1975. I have her Parents names if you don't already have them.
Regards Betty
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The timeline makes no sense at all
1882 Jeanie Wyllie marries William Roberts
1891 David is aged 5, giving a birth years of 1885/6
1901 David is aged 17, giving a birth year of 1883/4
So if the ages are accurate, David's father would have been William Roberts. In which case why cal himself Wyllie in later life?
On the other hand, if he was illegitimate then (a) he must have been born before 1882 and (b) even if his father had signed his birth certificate, be would still be indexed under his mother's surname.
Now, Jeanie.
The 1891 census says she was 26, so born 1864/5
The 1901 census says she was 34, so born 1866/7
And she said her parents were John Wyllie and Jane Allan, but there is no birth in the IGI of a Jane/Jean Wyllie with mother Jane/Jean Allan between 1863 and 1868.
There is a Jeanie Allan, mother Jane Allan, born 26 January 1865, and a Jane Allan, mother Jane Allan, born 25 June 1866, both in Glasgow and neither with a father's name. But I can't find either of them in the 1881 census in either Lanarkshire or Ayrshire.
There is just one possible Jean/Jane Wyllie in the 1881 census - a bit older than 'your' one at 19, and name Jane rather than Jeanie, but with mother Jane. However there are two other daughters, Fanny (16) and Elizabeth (14), both also missing from the IGI.
So I reckon there must be more than just 'your' David missing from the records.
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we have a picture of gt granny, she looks like she was nice. apparently she made jam a lot.
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Thanks Dave will have a look.
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Hello - I've looked at this family today because I have Wyllie ancestors and someone in our Wyllie research group asked me to help with this. I sure wish that I had started with RootsChat since I seem to have reinvented the wheel a bit. Here is what I have -
David Donaldson Wyllie, Statutory Death Record 610/A 40. 1 Oct 1946, Old Cumnock, Ayr(shire). His age looks like 66. Occupation stone miner. Married to Mary Campbell. Parents "Jeanie Wyllie, domestic servant, afterwards married to 1st William Roberts Mason's labourer, 2nd James Smith Coal Miner (deceased). Informant David Wyllie son.
David Donaldson Wyllie, Statutory Marriage Record 610/A 36. 1902 7th November, Old Cumnock Ayr(shire). St John Chapel, Cumnock, Roman Catholic Church. His age 19, coal miner bachelor. parents "Jeanie Wyllie (was married to William Roberts Mason's Labourer)". Mary Campbell, age 17, domestic servant (spinster) parents Thomas Campbell Pit Foreman & Susannah Campbell MS Mc Gunn. Usual residence for both of them is Elbows Lane Cumnock. David signed with "X" his mark.
Thomas Donaldson Wyllie, Statutory Birth Record 586/1 69. Sept 25, 1913, Dalmellington Ayr(shire)
parents David Donaldson Wyllie coalminer & Mary Wyllie MS Campbell, married 1902 Nov 7th Old Cumnock. Address High Street Dalmellington
I've looked at a number of David (Donaldson) Wyllie births circa 1884 but none match with his mother's name. He appears to be illegitimate, but that was required to be noted in Death Records until into the 20th century but I can't recall when that was dropped.
I couldn't find his mother's marriages but I was guessing at the years. It looks like she divorced her first husband since the records don't say he is deceased.
I think that I found William Roberts + Jeanie in the 1901 census. Elbow Lane, Old Cumnock, and he is a mason's labourer. I just have the ancestry transcription so the ages are suspect. The oldest child is 17-yr-old David Roberts "son". I wonder if that's David Donaldson Wyllie. Birthplace is Glasgow and occupation Miners labourer. There are three younger children: Mary (19), Henry (5) and Jeanie (3). The younger children were all born in Dumfries. William born England and Jeanie born Glasgow
The 1891 census: I found a Willm and Jane Roberts in Dumfries. The birthplaces for them are correct but the ages are odd so perhaps mis-transcribed. He is a hawker. The children are Daniel Roberts b. Glasgow age 5 and Willm Robert age 2 b Annan. So either David does not appear here, or Daniel is actually David, or this is a doppelganger family just out to confuse us.
I had a look for Jeanie Wyllie in the 1881 census, looking for her as a young domestic servant, born Glasgow. The LDS 1881 census has a Jeanie Wylie, age 18, domestic servant, b Glasgow, in Alloa Clackmannan, head of household Janet Younger age 58.
I'm happy to try to help sort this all out.
Katherine
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It’s been a while. Does anyone have any info about the elusive birth certificate?
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I am sure I am a relative of the Wyllie / Roberts family you are asking about. My grandad Henry was born in Dumfries in 1895 to Jeanie Roberts ms /Wylie and William Roberts. My Grandad died in 1963. His daughter my mum Jeanie must have been called after her gran. As her middle name was Wylie.
I know the grandmother of my mum went on to marry a Smith from Cumnock.
My grandad had a sister called Elizabeth, know as Lizzie. She was also born a Roberts.
If you have any information I would be pleased to receive such. I have just started researching a wee bit and came across this site by accident.
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Hi Annie
Sorry to say I STILL haven't found a birth cert. It's a real puzzler.
Hanan
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I know the grandmother of my mum went on to marry a Smith from Cumnock.
Welcome to RootsChat, Annie :)
This looks to be the SP marriage entry for the second marriage:
JAMES SMITH
and
JANET WYLLIE
1908
613 / 2 / 9
Catrine
Marriage is also indexed with same refs for Janet Roberts & James Smith.
Monica
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Has anyone delved deeper into this birth reg from 1882? Birth indexed twice in both Bridgeton and Bothwell. Normally this happens when a birth takes place in a district which is not the normal residence for the parents:
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Just some thoughts.
I think what has thrown searches off is that Jeannie/jane/Janet mixed up her details such as age & surnames.
Looking at that 1882 birth cert for a David Donaldson Wylie. John Wylie and Jane Whitelaw did indeed marry in 1881 as showing on this David's birth reg.
Jane's parents were showing as an Alexander Whitelaw and Jane Allan (mother's name is a constant in later records for Jane). Jane is showing with her father and a brother in 1881:
Alexander Whitlaw 49 woolen weaver b. Glasgow
Jane Whitlaw 22 hand winder in factory b. Glasgow
Stephen Whitlaw 19 b. Glasgow
Address: 14 East Union Street, Glasgow/ Camlachie
This looks like her birth: Jane Whitelaw b. 6 Jun 1859 High Church, Glasgow.
Can't easily see the marriage to William Roberts so far but their entry for 1891:
Willm Roberts 52 hawker b. England (age mistranscribed?)
Jane Roberts 26 b. Glasgow
Daniel Roberts 5 (David? Daniel and David are first name variants)
Willm Roberts 2 b. Annan
Address: 13 Friars Vennel, Dumfries, Dumfriesshire
Has anyone checked the birth certs for the Roberts children to see what date is showing for their parents' marriage?
Monica
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As already mentioned, the family were in Old Cumnock for 1901. William Roberts' age looks to likely be more accurate than the previous transcript.
Likely death for him in Old Cumnock in 1904. Aged 44. Mother's maiden name not given. Could well not be showing on the actual register if not known by the informant. Has anyone had a look at this death to confirm the details and that it is the correct death for William?
We then have Jane's marriage to James Smith in 1908 in Catrine. Her father has now become a John Wylie, a hawker ??? and mother Jane Allan, both deceased.
Jane's death in 1923 continues with parents as John Wylie and Jane Allan. She is showing as Janet on her death entry.
Monica
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Another mystery is Donaldson. A middle name running through the family. Including me.
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Well i just spoke to my Ma ( happy mothers day). She tells me she found DDW to be born in Glasgow but all records were lost in a fire.
She’ll look for the name of the place
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Curious.
Best way to check that story out would be to ask Scotland's People, though the relevant page on their web site says nothing about missing registers, whereas the pages describing the old parish registers have lists detailing which have survived and the census pages contain lists of the enumeration books that are known to be missing.
Registers of births, deaths and marriages are kept in duplicate, one in Edinburgh and one in the relevant Registration District, and the ones kept locally in the Registration Districts are routinely stored in fireproof safes. So for a register to be lost in a fire the fire would have had to strike while both books were out of their safe, and within a few months of the end of the year of the events if both copies were lost.
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I agree with Monica that John WYLIE and Jane/Janet WHIT(E)LAW are the parents of your David Donaldson WYLIE. You won't find a marriage to William ROBERTS because she was already married.
The 'Donaldson' comes from John WYLIE's family. His brother was also named David Donaldson WYLIE baptised at Bothwell in 1859, the son of William and Agnes (formerly PORTEUS). John was baptised 1854 at Old Monkland. The men were all iron puddlers.
Debra :)
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Another mystery is Donaldson. A middle name running through the family. Including me.
Mine too
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According to the marriage cert Jeanie Wyllie is illiterate I think that explains all her name changes
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Yes, sadly not uncommon at the time.
What do you as family researchers think of the possible new info posted yesterday?
I think John Wylie and Jean/Janet Whitelaw parted ways after the birth of David Donaldson Wylie...
John Wylie showed in his father William's Poor Relief application in 1890. He is listed as widowed and with one son living in Glasgow.
However, on John Wylie's 1881 marriage to Jane Whitelaw he was showing as widowed. He had married a Helen Brown a few years earlier who died young not long after. One son from that marriage, called William and born 1878.
Young William is showing with his paternal grandparents in 1881, William and Agnes (Porteous/Porter).
John Wylie did marry again (bigamously I would suggest). He married Agnes Hewitt in Glasgow in 1890. Showing on the census for 1891 in Glasgow is John, Agnes, young william from John's first marriage and Amelia Wylie. She was born in 1882 and registered as Hewitt to mother Agnes.
John Wylie did not die until 1939 in Cambuslang.
I have just found this family tree for this Wylie family with numerous original certs from SP. You need a subs to view so not sure how accessible this will be to you www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/1880871/person/352177423548/facts
On this tree, there are some errors for John such as the later censuses with the wrong family but I would focus on the original certs that have been included across the family for direction.
Monica
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From my mother :
David Donaldson was born in Bryony parish of Glasgow his mothers parents were John wyllie and Jane Allen nee wyllie
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That will be Barony. There is no such parish as Bryony.
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That would be my mum’s spelling😁😁
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David Donaldson was born in Bryony parish of Glasgow his mothers parents were John wyllie and Jane Allen nee wyllie
It does look as if maybe Jane Allan/Allen was David's grandmother rather than his mother. Not an uncommon mistake. I've come across some similar ones in my own tree.
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Looks like my mum got the nee the wrong way around too. I copy and pasted it from her message.
I got a dna match on My Heritage with an Allan in canada last week.
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Spoke to mum today. Yes david’s Grandparents were john and jane.
Not what she texted at all.
Mums eh?