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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Lass on Tuesday 10 June 08 15:32 BST (UK)
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Hi there! ;D
After bumping into a couple of stone walls, I've decided to go as far back as I can and try to sort out the earliest members of the family.
I trawled SP and the IGI for the variations in spelling that I was already aware of, but discovered I was evidently missing lots of family members given the children I found born to father named X when I couldn't find an appropriate X in the right timeline. (Does this make any sense??!!) However, opening up my search, I've come across a bundle of christening/baptism records which would make a lot of sense, but I'm just not sure about the name variations and wonder if I'm fitting these people in just to suit my tree!
To explain: the family name of interest is Balharry (Balhary, Balharie, Balharrie, Ballhary, Ballharry, Balharey, Batharry etc etc).
The records I've found which 'fit' nicely are Bathie, Batthie and Barty.
My Balharry's all originated from around Glamis, Tealing and Newtyle and of course this is exactly where these newfound folks hail from. ::)
What do you think? Am I stretching here? I haven't yet checked a couple of the original images to see whether they've been mistranscribed, but there are so many of them that I think it unlikely.
Your thoughts are most welcome.
Lass x
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Hello
The following site:
http://www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?search_name=Bathie&search_sex=F&action=search&Submit=Submit
Shows that a pet name for the female Christian name of Bathie can be either Bathia, or Bathsheba, with variant spellings of Batthie or Bathy.
Regards, Steve :O)
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Hi Steve, thanks for that link, may well come in handy along the way ;D The names I have, however, are surnames......
I just sort of wanted to know if I was reaching for something that's not there! I had contact from another Rootschatter who's given me the wise advice of 'if in doubt, leave it out', which I guess I'll have to go with, since there's no proof anywhere that these folks are mine. A tad unfortunate, as it looks like I won't be able to piece together the bits I have there now and it's a big chunk :'(
Thanks for your interest anyway! :)
Lass x
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No problems,
I'd agree with the other person as well. I only put the link in to highlight the fact that the names looked like christian ones. I take it that none of your 'possibles' died after 1855 or at least after the 1851 census?
Regards, Steve :O)
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Hi Steve
I do appreciate that link btw, wasn't being ungrateful!! In fact, I wonder if perhaps these first names are derived from original surnames?
Anyhow, I'm sorry I didn't mention it, but I'm looking at folks mostly in the 1760's but also a few in early 1800's. So yeah, no help with the census dammit!! ::)
Lass x
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Hi Cousin- ;)
The most common mix-ups with the surnames was with the Behary/Beharrie family. I believe there was a completely seperate family by the name of Behary, however the Balharry family often was mistranscribed as Behary, etc...
The Bathie/Barrie/etc was not often found to actually be the Balharry's. Bathary/ie was only mistakenly transcribed as such a few times.
P.S. Nice work on Chile!!
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Well hello there, cuz! ;D
I figured I was reaching with this name variation!!
And re Chile - twas the kind help of the rootschatters who got me there in the end - I'm in touch with our Chilean cousins and they're delighted to be part of our family ;D If you want the info I've got on this branch, let me know - I still haven't pinpointed where the original David slots into our tree though...... maybe your fresh eyes on this, or existing tree info would help???
Lass x
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Yes- please fill me in on the Chilian history... I had received some previosly from a fellow (with a very Spanish sounding name- actually)- but I did not think it was well enough documented... Seem to recall he thought David went there and returned to Scotland- so I wonder if the marriage to Margaret Jaffrey was a first marriage...and he may have later remarried? Just a thought.
The fact that BF Balharry was born so late in the marriage also brings forward the question of whether or not perhaps the marriage was- shall we say- of convenience??
I can't quite recall all of the details on the Chilian side-Please do refresh my memory ;D
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Hi Lass I have never found any proof that Bathie, Batthie and Barty are part of the family surname. The only variations I have seen are those you listed Balhary, Balharie, Balharrie, Ballhary, Ballharry, Balharey, Batharry & also Beharie and a Becharie. Probably we all descend from John Balharrie 1674 testament Glamis and his spouse Barbara Smith. Suggest you send a researcher to the attic at Balharry in Alyth Scotland where you will find 50 large crates of Balharry estate documents. Many early documents mention various persons living at Balharry or variation like Balharie and there is a 1683 four foot long Balharry Writs document listing all the Balharry estate owners. Somewhere buried in these old documents could be a clue as to our Balharry origin, the surname given to one of our ancestors who once lived there at Balharry but moved away, unfortunately we do not know his name. But there maybe some evidence of his name in the Auld Scots documents held at Balharry. Could be worth a look.
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Well hello there cousin! ;D
I had no idea about the cache in existence in Alyth - obviously knew about the house - how did you come to find out about this??? Now what a fabulously interesting exercise that would be...... send a researcher?? I'd want to do it myself! ;D
I'm sending you a pm anyway, be nice to be able to keep in touch, I know mum had your email address but has either lost it or it's changed, not sure which.
Lass x
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Hi Lass
You can always email me
I found out about those Balharry docs from National Archives of Scotland. By the way I forgot to mention that it is a private archive at Balharry so you will need to gain viewing permission via appointment with the owner first. That can be done through contact with the NAS. I had a researcher go there but there was far to many documents and it would have been far to much of a costly exercisers to pay him to go through everything let alone transcribe old documents. There are hundreds of old letters etc in the boxes many must be fascinating
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Hi again cuz
I've taken note of your email addy, so I'd suggest you go back in to your post and delete it, otherwise you're likely to get a bucketload of spam!
I'll look into the NAS situation. I wonder whether they would allow us to do it personally, or whether they would insist on a recognised researcher, do you happen to know?
Lass x
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Sorry, me again - just checked my email and found your message, will respond!
Lass x
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Hi Las NAS can give you the archive owners phone number, her name is Mary Blackwell at Balharry, you can then call her direct and discuss viewing the documents your self (I don't know her position on that but you could tell her you are a family genealogist or something). Like I said these documents are mostly to do with estate owners of Balharry and persons who lived there for some centuries. One of our ancestors must of lived there at one point but may have just been a tenant. The trouble is we do not know which ancestor. However there are hundreds of stampless letters among the boxes from 18th & 19th century some clue could be hidden away somewhere. I am lucky as I also connect to the Smyth of Balharry family so there is a lot there concerning the Smyth's of who Mary is a descendant. Can you transcribe auld scots? I will wait for your email, by the way please send me your latest family tree and I will take a look, enjoy your weekend regards Duncan
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Hi Lass, don't know what your surname is but I am custodian of the combined family trees of the Balharrie's, Beharrie's, Beharie's, Baharie's so if you still need info on these let me know. You can find me on facebook...Just search for my user name. BTW, the house in question is at "Balhary", not "Balharry"...I've been there and part of it is now the local job centre.
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My problem is south of the border in County Durham. The name Freak. or ? or? or ? or ?.
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BTW, the house in question is at "Balhary", not "Balharry"...I've been there and part of it is now the local job centre.
Spelling isn't constant.
There are two houses named as Balharry with the double r in the parish of Alyth on Stobie's map dated 1783 - see https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400314 and zoom in to find Meigle and Alyth at lower right.
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My problem is south of the border in County Durham. The name Freak. or ? or? or ? or ?.
You must be referring to the surname Baharie? First let me say that Beharie (my Surname) is just a phonetic variation of Balharrie, and it first appeared in the records around the 1690's when a John Beharie was born...He Christened his son James Beharie (my Gt, Gt, Gt, Gt Grandfather) in 1716. And even after that I had some ancesters that appear as both Beharie or Balharrie in the records (On the IGI). Even my gt, gt, grandfather Robert Beharie, a well off Mill owner from Dundee, called his company Robertson and Beharrie (with an extra r!)...They really didn't seem to care how it was spelt at all. As for Baharie, that is just a phonetic variation of Beharie. It first appeared when James Beharie's brother, Alexander Baharie of Atholl was born, in around 1720. His Son, another Alexander, who was born in 1746, was a seafarer, possibly a ships captain or navigator, as he moved from Dundee to Sunderland and started a Naval academy there. He even published a book on the subject. I have the complete family tree of the Baharie side of the family right down to the present day (thanks to Peter Godfrey), as well as the Beharries and Beharies of course. I haven't added more of the Balharries to my tree as it would get far larger and even more complicated. Going by your user name I am guessing you surname is Barry? I'm afraid to say that as far as can tell, Barry is a Welsh surname, and completely unrelated to the Balharrie's, Baharie's, Beharie's or Beharries from Scotland.
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BTW, the house in question is at "Balhary", not "Balharry"...I've been there and part of it is now the local job centre.
Spelling isn't constant.
There are two houses named as Balharry with the double r in the parish of Alyth on Stobie's map dated 1783 - see https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400314 and zoom in to find Meigle and Alyth at lower right.
That may be the case, but if you actually go and visit the large red brick mansion house at the place in question you will find it is spelt Balhary. Thanks for the link to the old map though.
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if you actually go and visit the large red brick mansion house at the place in question you will find it is spelt Balhary.
It's shown with one r on modern maps too.
The point I am trying to make is that spelling was a pretty random thing until about the 20th century. Names were spelled however the clerk writing them down decided to spell them on the day. Sometimes the same person's name is spelled in different ways by the same clerk in the same document.
So it's not a case of someone deliberately changing the spelling of his name or actively deciding that from now on there will be one r fewer in the name of a house or to drop a letter from the middle of a surname.
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if you actually go and visit the large red brick mansion house at the place in question you will find it is spelt Balhary.
It's shown with one r on modern maps too.
The point I am trying to make is that spelling was a pretty random thing until about the 20th century. Names were spelled however the clerk writing them down decided to spell them on the day. Sometimes the same person's name is spelled in different ways by the same clerk in the same document.
So it's not a case of someone deliberately changing the spelling of his name or actively deciding that from now on there will be one r fewer in the name of a house or to drop a letter from the middle of a surname.
Yes, I know, the variation of spellings is probably the most frustrating thing for family tree researchers like ourselves. I'm so glad my surname isn't Smith or Jones, or I probably would have trouble finding anyone past my Grandparents. Thankfully, with such a rare surname I have been able to trace mine back to 1640 now. Beyond that, I will have to wait to see if the Mormons can find more details. The problem is, when Monck rampaged through Scotland, capturing Dundee on 1 Sept 1651, and his troops were subsequently allowed free reign to loot, burn and pillage, many old records from before that time were destroyed in the ensuing two days of total chaos...This is why it is so difficult to find records older than this from these parts of Scotland.