RootsChat.Com

Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: jean Sandra on Friday 21 January 05 15:11 GMT (UK)

Title: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Friday 21 January 05 15:11 GMT (UK): Hi,
does anyone know exactly what a hawker of pots would have done?
Does it mean the person sold pots at markets and fairs? Or does it mean they travelled from door to door selling pots?
Would the person have sold from a catalogue or would they have had to carry pots around with them?
Would the hawker have worked directly for a manufacturer or would they have sold earthenware from different sources.
Ancestors of mine were hawkers of pots for at least 2 generations in the early to late 19th century. They originated in Staffordshire but were later found in Hyde, Hazel Grove, Furness Vale and other areas of Cheshire.
The areas concerned were close to canals and railways would this have been important?
I'm just curious.
Regards,
Jean Sandra
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: casalguidi on Friday 21 January 05 15:26 GMT (UK): Hi Jean

In general, hawkers (as opposed to pedlars) had transport ie. a horse and, possibly, a cart of some description. They generally worked from door to door and often had regular rounds/routes that they followed. It's possible that they did attend fairs etc. but this would only have been from Easter (Whitsun even) to late September.

It is interesting that yours were specifically recorded as pot hawkers - obviously selling wares from the potteries. I don't know but would perhaps hazard a guess at the areas being close to the canals and railways giving a more lucrative trade with more people around? Or maybe they even arranged delivery of their wares via these transport methods? I am not local to that area so somebody else with more local history knowledge than myself may come up with some other information.

Best wishes

Casalguidi
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Saturday 22 January 05 02:59 GMT (UK): Hi,
many thanks for the prompt reply.
I really hadn't distinguished between hawkers and pedlars and was a bit confused.
Many thanks again.
Regards
Jean Sandra
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Boongie Pam on Saturday 22 January 05 16:26 GMT (UK): Hiya,

I have many Hawker's of Pots and Earthenware dealers in my tree. I've collected census material from all over the north of England whenever I have seen the occupation listed and many of the families are related. I'd be interested to hear the surnames of yours.

Mine are Lowther, Stewart, Miller, Robinson, Brough, Hall, Harrison. MAny of these families intermarried. Area wise they are primarily Cumderland & Lancashire.

I haven't been able to find much written information about the trade from a sales point of view but "potters" are well know in the Cumberland area as travelling dealers in glass and ceramics.

There is a book called

Charnley, Robert. - The summer of '89 : being the photographic record of a Scottish highland summer...

Maclean Press (in association with) Dualchas, 1991. - 0951602217

The lady on the front below is a hawker of pots - her picture below. She is called a tinker woman as she hawked tin ware but the potters of Cumberland were the same.
They travelled around villages selling glass, pots, crockery an important source when people were in general less mobile.

My ancestor Thomas Robinson owned a warehouse outside Carlisle in a place called Brunstock in the early 1800s. On the 1871 census after Thomas's death it still appears on the census as Robinsons Earthenware in 1841 the census shows other hawker families living at the place (Millhouse) I believe these were people stocking up to take pots up to Scotland - their name was McGregor.

It is an occupation I am fascinated by and would love to know the names of the people.

All the best,
Pam
;D
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Saturday 22 January 05 18:13 GMT (UK): Hi,

this is fascinating.
My anxestors were called Challenor and from Staffordshire where there was a large pottery industry. That was probably their source but later they moved north into Cheshire where thay called themselves Earthenware dealers or hawkersof pots/ earthenware. I have visions of their carrying these items around the area but it must have taken some doing!
My husband's family come from the Whitehaven area of Cumberland but they were mariners. The Lowther family name of your ancestors is quite an important one in that area.
Regards
Jean Sandra
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Dolgellau on Saturday 22 January 05 18:40 GMT (UK): Four of my 3x great grandparents were hawkers of pots in the mid 1800’s they all lived in mid-Wales but appear to have travelled throughout most of Wales and the border counties plying their trade. I have one for example born in Ruthin in the north east, living in Llwyngwril in the middle of Wales but giving birth to one child in Pembrokeshire in the south west.

I am told that hawkers had to be licensed by the local magistrates to ply their trade, unfortunately none of the records for the grant of licences have survived for my area, but it might be worth checking in the local RO to see if the grants have survived for your own area.

The question of “where did they get their pots?” is one that never occurred to me. I had just assumed that they made their own, but the suggestion that they bought them from the potteries makes more sense. I hadn’t considered that the pots might be “pots and pans” as the lady in the picture is carrying either, I had just thought about earthenware pots. These are avenues that I will have to explore further– thanks for the suggestions.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: casalguidi on Saturday 22 January 05 18:56 GMT (UK): They may well have made any metal pots. Tinsmith being another travelling occupation for those that made and repaired pots & pans. I believe that the word "tinker" derives from the same.

Casalguidi
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Boongie Pam on Saturday 22 January 05 19:36 GMT (UK): My family tree at my website hasn't got all the interesting bits of info yet just the BMD I need to find the time to flesh it out.

I'm slowly collecting a lot of info on the Cumberland potters just because of my fascination of how a group of people who are considered "low" were actually really important folk in years past. (Tinker & potter are often used as insults)

Some interesting snippets...
The parish records in Wigton Cumberland have my ancestor John LOWTHER (bn ~1760 d 1843) as a brazier for a number of the baptisms. This was a person who carried a fire in a bucket who mended spoons and tin pots or other metalware.

Later baptisms have him as a "potter" the colloquial term for earthenware dealer. His son Henry is listed in Pigot's in Wigton as a glass and earthenware dealer. This to me shows a connection between travelling folk and the pot hawkers, I saw the same change in occupation with what I think is John's brother James.

There are also connections with families who have traditional "gypsy" names such as Sewell and Lovell. I'm trying to find out whether my Lowther's are originally from a gypsy family. It is believed that travelling people sometimes settled and took the name of the local landowner - in Northern Cumberland that is most likely to be Lowther.

I found a great census entry you may be interested in as well.

1851
Whitehaven Preston Quarter

Pottery Lodge
Charles Lowther/60 /Travelling Potter/   NK/M/Head
Margaret Lowther/58 /Travelling Potter/NK/M/Wife
William Lowther/27 /Travelling Potter/NK/U/Son

Pottery Lodge
John Lowther /24 /Travelling Potter/ NK/M/Head
Jane Lowther/ 18/Travelling Potter/NK/M/Wife

NK = Not Known for place of birth

Pottery lodge seems to be associated with the Trousdale pottery manufacturers. I imagine these are outhouses that families stayed in while they bought new merchandise.

In 1841 there is a Hall family - with all the kids, can you imagine how hard it was to travel with a full family!?

1851
Whitehaven Preston Quarter

Pottery
Sarah Trousdale   60   Earthenware m.   Y
Ralph Hall   35   potter   Y
Mary Hall   35      Y
Eliza Hall   14      Y
Sarah Hall   12      Y
Catherine Hall   8      Y
Ralph Hall   6      Y
Mary Hall   3      Y
Wm Hall     1      Y

So it is a good idea to find out where the local potteries where - you never know you may find your stray ancestors.

And sometimes they travelled mob handed!

1841
Calthwaite

William Stewart   65   Potter   Y
Isabella Stewart 65      Y
John Lowther   45   Potter   Y
Jane Lowther   45      Y
Mary Steward   35   Potter   Y
William Stewart   25      Y
Ann Stewart   25      Y
Jane Lowther   10      Y
Charles Steward   10      Y
William Stewart   5      Y
Edward Steward   5      Y
Edward Stewart   4      Y
John Stewart   2      Y
Isabella Stewart 1m      Y

If anyone is interested in the census material I have collected please PM me and I'll send you an excel file. It isn't brilliant in that I don't have folio numbers etc it's just a notes file for my own use.

Sorry for the ramble - but this one is my favourite subject!!!

Pam
;D
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Sunday 23 January 05 03:06 GMT (UK): Hi,

yes, I know what you mean about them being mob handed.

My Challenor family had father William, sons Enoch and William, and their families, all hawkers of pots and living close together in Hyde Cheshire in 1841. Son Richard was also a hawker of pots. I wonder if working in groups helped the carrying of their wares much easier? Perhaps they could carry a larger range if there was a few of them.
how interesting that there was a 'Pottery Lodge' in Whitehaven. I've done a bit of research in Whitehaven for my husband's family but not looked at it from the point of view of hawkers before.
Thanks for the information it's fascinating.
Regards
Jean Sandra
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Dolgellau on Sunday 23 January 05 04:57 GMT (UK): I am quite exited by the fact that there are so many other family history researchers who are descended from pot hawkers, who seem to share an interest in the work that they did and the sources for tracing their whereabouts and tracing their families.

I have heard about “One Name Studies” where enthusiasts of the same name collect all available data about a single name. Is there such a thing as a “One Job Study” whereby we can all contribute to a data bank of all the potters that we come across (in the same way that a ONS can contribute to all the POTTERS that they find)?

My biggest brick wall is a family of potters who I have in the 1851 census in Cemaes Montgomeryshire, but I can’t find anywhere in 1841, 1861, 1871, etc. When one considers the itinerant nature of a hawkers work it is not surprising that they can’t be found from one census to the next using “normal” research methods.

If there are other one job studies available I would like to know about them and how they work so that we descendants of pot hawkers can collect our data together on one Website, in one archive or however these things are done – I’m sure that it would be a worthwhile project that might benefit all of us.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Sunday 23 January 05 09:15 GMT (UK): Hi,

good idea for a site of 'one job studies'.
My Challenors were also very elusive and are difficult to trace from one census to another.
In fact no matter how hard I try I can't find William and his sons Enoch and William in any census but 1841 in Hyde.
Richard his other son can't be found in 1841, 1851. He was in Hyde in 1981, Furness Vale in 1861 and 1871.
There was another family of Challenors in Macclesfield who were hawkers but I can't prove that they were related.
It still intrigues me as to what they did with their pots. They must have stored them and they must have been difficult to source, transport and sell.
Jean Sandra
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: KathyM on Sunday 23 January 05 09:34 GMT (UK): In my late grandfather's diaries - he was born 1901 in West Yorkshire - he writes about the various traders who called - around 1910-20 - one of them was 'the Pot Man' - he had a horse and cart - he travelled on a regular route and carried all sorts of household goods - a bit like a travelling hardware shop - not only did he carry pots - that is 'pint pots, mugs, cups, plates & saucers' - but utensils, pans, soap, cleaning materials, candles, etc.....my grandfather said they would buy matches from him.....depending on which sort he had with him - he liked a particular brand of match - because the boxes were used to make into toys - and they were the 'best boxes'.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Sunday 23 January 05 17:41 GMT (UK): Kathy,
that's amazing!
yes, I can imagine hawkers carrying their pots on a cart it explains a lot.
Your Grandfather's diaries must be wonderful, what a treasured posession to have.
Thanks very much for the shared information
Regards
jean Sandra
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: chrisjen on Sunday 23 January 05 19:02 GMT (UK): It was very interesting to read all your comments about "hawkers", we recently started to trace my husband's family, and my mother-in-law had always said her grandmother had a stall selling earthenware, china, bric-a-brac in Swansea Market. We haven't proved this, but we have found my husband's g-g-grandfather, whose surname was Gregory, who is listed on the census' from 1861 to 1891 as a "hawker" and an "earthenware dealer"together with his first and second wife who must have worked with him. He was born at Diseworth, Leicester, but the rest of the family were Ag Labs, apart from his brother who became a fishmonger!! The Swansea Potteries were famous, but the high end of the market, so I suppose he sold more everyday items. Anyway, on with the quest......... :)

Regards,
Chris
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Sunday 23 January 05 19:28 GMT (UK): hi,
my Challenor ancestors were hawkers/earthenware dealers.
I often wondered if they had market stalls in Hyde, where they lived for part of their lives does have a market but whether records remain I don't know.
In fact I don't know if the market goes back as far as 1837, when the first reference to William Challenor appears in a trade directory as a dealer in earthenware and glass.
the family came from Staffordshire and I often wonder if they were dealing with earthenware produced by a factory with the name Challinor. I don't suppose there is any way of finding out.
Jean Sandra
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Boongie Pam on Saturday 07 January 06 18:48 GMT (UK): Must be the time of year when I start to think about my potters ;D

I've been googling for earthenware dealers and Lowthers/Robinson and guess what this thread is the top hit!!!

Would anybody be interested in getting involved in a wee project on on this occupation?

I thought just as a starter it would be nice to collect together all the family names of known earthenware dealers - from Pigots, census etc and put them on a map? I thought I would try to put a webpage together where all the chatters who have an interest in the families could be listed with their names in the counties/parishes?

Since these are travelling folk it may help future researchers?

What do you think?

Interested?

Pam
;D
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: carol8353 on Saturday 07 January 06 22:11 GMT (UK): Hi Pam....and others ;D

I have recently discovered that my Bailey ancestors from Biddulph in Staffs were pot hawkers and earthenware dealers. Like Jean Sandra,I hadn't really thought what the difference was.I presumed beacuse they were from Staffs it would automatically be china/pottery items.

And like Jean mine too moved to Macclesfield,via Congleton (they must have known each other Jean!)

Loved the picture on the front of the book Pam- I think I'll try and find out more about these Baileys from Biddulph. :D

Carol
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: sem73 on Sunday 08 January 06 20:26 GMT (UK): Hi All

Interesting topic!!......I too have found rellies in the same job....few details at the mo...sorry not as detailed as alot of you have already found out :-[

What I have so far.........

Of my g g g grandfather's wife...in 1851..

Pheobe Morelee 47 Earthenware dealer as was her daughter Ann aged 16 living in Mold, Flintshire, North Wales.

Pheobe and a couple of daughters appear in later census as earthenware dealers or hawkers in and around the same town.

Nearly all the men appear as coal miners until 1870s when most moved to nearby Buckley and were in the brick industry........all the way along until my own father working in brick kilns in Buckley during the 1960's.........clay seemed to be the way to go in my family!!! LOL

This thread has certainly made me think about their jobs and to find out more about the earthenware dealers / hawkers that were in my family

Sarah

:D
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Mike38 on Tuesday 31 January 06 16:03 GMT (UK): Hi I have just found this site, and you were asking about hawkers, I dont know about hawkers ,but my Gt Grandfather worked the canal boats from Wolverhampton to Stoke on Trent, and carried pots and the like, and his name was William Henry Challenor, he was born 1828
Quote from: jean Sandra on Sunday 23 January 05 03:06 GMT (UK)
Hi,

yes, I know what you mean about them being mob handed.

My Challenor family had father William, sons Enoch and William, and their families, all hawkers of pots and living close together in Hyde Cheshire in 1841. Son Richard was also a hawker of pots. I wonder if working in groups helped the carrying of their wares much easier? Perhaps they could carry a larger range if there was a few of them.
how interesting that there was a 'Pottery Lodge' in Whitehaven. I've done a bit of research in Whitehaven for my husband's family but not looked at it from the point of view of hawkers before.
Thanks for the information it's fascinating.
Regards
Jean Sandra
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Tuesday 31 January 06 20:23 GMT (UK): Mike,

this sounds as though someone walked over my grave....

My Challenor ancestors were from Staffordshire and were earthenware dealers / hawkers of pots.

They moved north and were found in Furness Vale, Ashton and Hyde but my great grandmother Elizabeth Challenor, moved back to the midlands and my grandmother was born in Wolverhampton. I have long felt that my great grandmother went to live with relatives in the town of Wolverhampton after her husband (Major Lionel Mills) died in a tragic boating accident but havent been able to find them.

The Challenor family moved to places where canals were being built and I wondered if there was a link.

Your William Henry interests me as William Challenor is a family name. Do you know his history. My 3x great grandfather Richard Challenor was born to a William Challenor from Staffordshire. Richard had a brother William. They were all hawkers/sellers of pots. There could be a link.

Regards

Jean Sandra
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Mike38 on Wednesday 01 February 06 13:52 GMT (UK): Hi Jean, I have been looking and have found 3 Elizabeths in the Wolverhampton area :- Elizabeth born 1812, another one
born 1831, and another one born, 1857 this one live 3 miles from Wolverhampton A place called Wednesfield, I will see if I can find a Richard later today, but the birth dates are always usefull, My Gt grandfather William Henry, Married a Mary Ann Pickford, she came from Congleton in between Stoke on Trent and Macclesfield, I supose he met her when they stayed over night in that area, I dont know the full facts, if you have the birth date of Elizabeth, I will try to find more. Mike
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Saturday 04 February 06 09:06 GMT (UK): Hi again,

many thanks for this, its very interesting.

You say your William turned up at Congleton. For a long time I have thought my Challenor ancestors were related to some in Macclesfield, Amongst them were hawkers too. They also had a Simeon Challenor, my 2x great grandfather was Simeon Challenor but was born in Hazel Grove near Poynton, near Macclesfield, where there was also a canal. His father was Richard, a hawker. The Challenors in Macclesfield included one with a birthplace of Horton in Staffordshire. One of the places Richard said he was born was Haughton in Staffordshire. He couldnt read or write so it could be the same place.

If your family of hawkers was working with mine they would have a large area covered. If yours worked the canal area from Stoke to Macclesfield mine could have worked the area from Macclesfield. There is a Challenor's wharf on the canal at Macclesfield but I don't know its history.

Do you know who your great grandfathers parents were and where they came from?

You probably havent found my gt grandmother's birth as she was born in Hyde Cheshire in 1880. She moved with her family to Birmingham in the 1890s but they moved back to Hyde. In 1891 she returned to Birmingham and married a Major Lionel Mills at Kings Norton register office in June 1893 just a few months later before my grandmother Marjorie Mills was born in Wolverhampton in August 1903. I don't know the details but believe that the baby was sent north to live with her grandmother Jemima Challenor whilst Elizabeth Mills formerly Challenor stayed in service in the Birmingham area. It was the Wolverhampton link that interested me as Elizabeth had no family in the midlands that I knew of and wondered who a young widow would stay with to have the baby. Her inlaws lived in Kidderminster and her own close family were in the greater Manchester area.

Regards

Jean Sandra
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Ninatoo on Monday 06 February 06 11:58 GMT (UK): My James McCormick was reputedly born in 1835 in England, possibly Lancashire. He was an earthen ware hawker for some of the time, but he had moved to Scotland by 1859. Like you I have found it very difficult to trace his movements through the censuses, but his family resided in Glasgow all the while from 1861 -1901, and he only made it home for the first census listed there!

But what is really interesting is that on James' death registration it lists his father Samuel's occupation as a Delf Hawker. I looked it up and Delf Hawker sold "Delf", which is earthenware from Delft, Holland. It is that blue and white stuff you see all the time...but I thought I would mention it here because it is another place the hawkers could obtain their goods...from overseas markets!

Nina
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Wednesday 08 March 06 09:41 GMT (UK): Hi Pam,

have you thought anymore about a website dedicated to hawkers/earthenware dealers?

I continue ti find family members who lived around Horton, Horton Hay, Biddulph Moor who were potsellers / hawkers.

Having recently visited the area for the first time I can't imagine why so many people lived in such an isolated area 200 years ago and all selling pots. The families Challenor, Mellor, Booth, Bailey and I think Shufflebottom and Green lived close together all dealing in earthenware and working as a large family unit.

Perhaps there was a gypsy, tinker element to it but I just don't know. They certainly moved around especially Cheshire, Congleton, Macclesfield, Furness Vale, Hyde.

I think your website sounds a good idea.

Regards

Jean Sandra
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: old rowley on Wednesday 08 March 06 16:28 GMT (UK): A bit off topic but as tinkers have been mentioned in this thread I thought that someone might be interested in the following. For a while now I have been collecting meanings and origins of sayings etc (I know....... I know but I get my new anorak next week ;D) and one of them deals with tinkers.

"I don't give a tinkers damn/cuss"

This saying comes from the "dam", "plug" or "cuss" that a tinker used when repairing leaky pots or pans. A piece of bread (known as the dam/plug/cuss) was chewed and placed as a bung over the hole to be repaired. This was to stop the solder from running through the hole. Afterwards once the hole had been sealed and repaired the bread was thrown away, therefore the saying means "nothing more worthless than his (tinkers) dam or cuss".

old rowley
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Boongie Pam on Friday 10 March 06 14:30 GMT (UK): Hi Jean,

I haven't had a chance to do anything yet - it will be after May now (exams) but more than willing to collect info together from everyone.

P ;D
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Friday 10 March 06 17:01 GMT (UK): Hi,

good idea they did seem to operate out of large families / groups. They seemed area specific too.

Regards

Jean
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Shuffy Boy on Tuesday 15 December 09 19:12 GMT (UK): Hello folks, my great grandfather Arthur Shufflebotham, was "a penny odd cup merchant" his words. The roots come from Horton Hay, close to Biddulph Moor, here's a message sent out requesting info:

Shuffs & Friends of Shuffs,

Please find attached the latest update of Shuffs, from the Hollins to the Cloughs.
It is work in progress; I hope you find it interesting. There are no photographs or copies of documents; you can find those on the Ancestry.co.uk website under “Hollins Clough Shuffs”

A particularly interesting area for further research would be to confirm that William [B. 1852 in Bidulph], Jane [B. 1853 in Horton] and Hannah [B. 1855 in Horton] were born out of wedlock to James Shufflebottom and Martha Bayley [Bailey]? It seems likely as James is described as a bachelor on their wedding certificate.

More intruiging and quite disturbing is a question about his father Ambrose. He married Hannah Mellor in 1810 [see Wedding Cert. Ancestry.co.uk website]. In the 1841 Census he is 55 years old, living with young Hannah [his daughter] who is 35 years old born in 1806, therefore 4 years old when he married Hannah Mellor. Also living in the same house is Thomas aged 25, Ambrose aged 20, probably young Hannah’s brothers.
Who is the mother and father of our James Shufflebottom and his twin sister Mary, both aged15 and Sarah aged14???

Also to be researched: A reference in Rushton Spencer Notes, Ambrose “ Shoebottom” [should this be transcribed as Shufflebottom??] born to William and Hannah in 1785 [correct date for our Ambrose] could be living at “Springs” area of Rushton Spencer. 1788 where an area called crofts at the Hollins is mentioned. See Rushton Spencer website search for Ambrose Shoebottom.

PS someone in this strand is looking fordetails of the Swansea Gregorys, China dealers in Swansea Market. Ken Gregory was a customer of mine buying china and glass for many years, His son John is still living in Swansea, contact me for details

Andrew Shuff
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Wednesday 16 December 09 10:03 GMT (UK): Hi,
your post really interests me.
My Challenor / Mellor ancestors were earthenware dealers / hawkers from Horton and Biddulph.The earliest known was William Challenor (born 1777) son of Hannah Challenor who married John Mellor at Horton in 1779. William and his family took on both the Mellor and Challenor names. Even his sons were baptised under both.
Williams son Richard was an an earthenware dealer / hawker like his father William. He claimed at various census' to have been born Horton or Biddulph.
The names Bailey and Shufflebottom crop up at census' as fellow lodgers etc usually all earthenware dealers born in Horton / Biddulph.
I can't find a connection yet but I'm sure there will be one as they seemed to marry between families.
Do you know if some members of your family went to Macclesfield, Chapel en le Frith, Hyde, Ashton under Lyne?
Regards
Jean S
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Shuffy Boy on Wednesday 16 December 09 22:39 GMT (UK): Jean,
Thats really interesting, I've also found that the Mellors, Bailieys and Shufflebottoms are closely linked. Most Horton Hay Shufflebottoms are potters, there is a lot of potting going on, I know that white clay was mined there, this was "Creamware" era.
Ambrose Shufflebottom married Hannah Mellor in 1810 see my Ancestry.co.uk website for a copy certificate. Could John Mellor be Hannah's father. If so where were they living? Where could they have met?
There also seems to be a strong Macclesfield link. Arthur Shufflebotham was living in Macclesfield in 1891, his sister Jane married John Hill from there. Was there a pottery connection there?
Any info greatfully accepted.
Andrew shuff
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: emmsthheight on Thursday 17 December 09 01:28 GMT (UK): Hi all :)

I've only just seen this post. OIn fact it started before I knew about Rootschat!

It's a bit late - to say the least today, to write much, bit I've spent a long time looking at a friend's families who were potters and earthenwre dealers in Cumberland and the north west. they were invoved with the Millers, Lowthers etc. :)

I also started collecting data for any earthernwear dealer and similar and also gypsies and had a serction of my web site earmarked in fact I think mine would compliment quite nicely what you've done, but much filing etc is needed, then BT went and closed the siites, so I'm looking for a home - or my web site is! :'( :'(

I'll write more again but I didn't want to lose the post.

I'll dig my info out.

Hopefully we can swap ideas?##Best wishes

Emms :)
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Thursday 17 December 09 09:14 GMT (UK): Where were Hannah mellor and Ambrose married. Hannah and John Mellor were married in Horton 1779 so even though I havent come across a child hannah it wouldn't be surprising if she was there daughter.
John mellor's family were potsellers around Horton area.
Joseph (born Macclesfield) and Harriet (born Horton) Shufflebottom were lodgers with Jane Mellor in Macclesfield in 1851. Only have details so don't know if brother sister or married. If married harriets name would be interesting. Jane was Jane Challenor who married Joseph Mellor in Horton 19 May 1831. Another Mellor / Challinor link.
John Mellor's son Simeon Challenor was living Macclesfield from about 1837. His children were Mellors early in life but adopted their mothers name Challenor later. No idea why as Hannah Challenor (mother) married John Mellor. There was a large Challenor family in Macclesfield.
Will let you know if I find more.
Jean
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Thursday 17 December 09 09:20 GMT (UK): Shuffy
regarding occupations in Macclesfield.
Joseph Shufflebottom 1851 was a shoemaker.
I have Challenors who were hawkers, pedlars, earthenware dealers in Macclesfield. The older Simeon son of Hannah and John Mellor was at various times labourer, sheep skin dealer amongst other occupations.
Jean
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: emmsthheight on Thursday 17 December 09 11:39 GMT (UK): Hi Pam

My friend's ancestors were Berry and McKenzie and Keenan. Loads of them were earthenware dealers and hawkers, potters etc. Also Basket makers and besom makers. Some were travelling hawkers and some we know were actual gypsies.

They are most ly in Cumberland and Westmorland and especially Cockermouth and Penrith and on the roads between eg "Camping behind the Hedge"! Some went to USA

They inter married with Youngs, Lowthers, Harrisons etc.

I have loads of info and maybe we can help each other fill in some spaces.

I've seen some hawking licence records - loads of all those families. Also odd news and court reports for hawking without a licence and being drunk in charge of a horse. They are linked to the Charnley family.

Loads are buried in Cockermouth. Loads of bmd & earely census records are missing.

I will write later when I cxome in or I can pm and I will tell my friend to look too.

Bye just now.

Emms :) :) ;) ;) :)
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Steve G on Thursday 17 December 09 18:57 GMT (UK): Quote from: jean Sandra on Sunday 23 January 05 17:41 GMT (UK)

I can imagine hawkers carrying their pots on a cart it explains a lot.

Maybe this'll help ye see the picture more fully?

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/ptpc/tn_121-2197_IMG.jpg)

That's not still called a " Pot Cart ", to this day, for nothing ;)
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: jean Sandra on Thursday 17 December 09 21:47 GMT (UK): Wow! How grand is that?
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Steve G on Thursday 17 December 09 21:48 GMT (UK): About one and a half, as I remember ;D
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Incywincyspider on Monday 19 September 11 22:49 BST (UK): Hi...this thread is really interesting.

I've found my third paternal great grandmother Mary A Harrison (possible maiden name of Johnson) who was a hawker of tin ware. Her and her travelling Butler husband - Alexander Harrison lived in Leeds in a premises it says was lodgings for travellers needing overnight lodgings in 1871 census. I'm struggling to find her before this or any marriage/birth certs for her and it says he's from Scotland but again I'm hitting walls to find him either. Was there a separate census for travelling folk?

Later in 1891 their son, also Alexander, lives in Linthwaite, Yorkshire with travelling show people - Johnson's as a travelling servant.

Any clues or hints anyone can give me re. tracking these ancestors would be really appreciated.

Leah
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: emmsthheight on Tuesday 20 September 11 00:02 BST (UK): Hi Leah

Welcome to Rootchat! :)

It's great fun and you'll get loads of help!

I've been having fun with a friend's gypsy and hawker family and my Hoeys seem to have joined in too!

She has some Harrisons married to one of her Berry family.

As far as special records including census are concerned, they're special all right! They're invisible on occasions!

I'm no expert, buit I'm told, and the evidence confirms it that none of these communities liked to appear in official records. Also, the way of life endorses that.

For censuses, we have loads of blanks for the early censuses.

The ones we do have are such as "Group of families camping by road", "Behind the hedge" and even one in America "Living in wigwam by the lake"!

Even where they are more down to earth, often the birth place is given - incorrectly as the place where they are living - so did they say that to cover up, or did the enumerator just give up and write something to keep his job?

We reckon and I've seen it in articles as well, that many of the early bmd's just weren't registered, but on topoif thaty, if they moved between the birth and the baptism, the census, even if it's right wont lead to a baptism.

Presiumablky most of them were buried but of course deaths and burials were just where they fell, so if they were on the road away from any of their usual haunts you've had it almost.

Many of them didn't marry, or not officially in church or civil ceremony's. It was just "Across the Brush" or "Over the broom", or similar - ie in front of their own people.

As I'm told true Romanies don't accept charities or benefits, there is very little mention in charity records which have helped me no end with the poorer end of my families.

Keep plugging away though. It's all great fun!

Have you seen the posts on travellers on Rootschat too?

Good luck!

Best wishes

Emms :)
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: emmsthheight on Tuesday 20 September 11 00:06 BST (UK): PS This link will take you to the Travelling Peoples board on Rootschat. They really know what they're talking about! :)

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,387.0.html

Enjoy!

Best wishes

Emms :)
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Monday 09 April 12 20:13 BST (UK): Just found this thread, its my first time on Rootschat
Very interested in what you have said Emms
My GG Grandparents were Keenan's, Berry's, McKenzie's & Knowles all Hawkers at some time in particular pots which I believe were made at the Jubilee pottery at Dearham
I would love to know what info you have on these families,
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: emmsthheight on Monday 09 April 12 22:23 BST (UK): Hi :)

Welcome top Rootschat!

These are actually the family of a good friend and her cousins. I think Rootschat's calling me back! I've been a bit distracted the last few months but this is two mails in twenty four hours that I couldn't ignore!

I like the Cumbrian name bu the way!

I am in Cumbria where these families spent time before going to Canada and America.

I will contact my friend, but the main characters were Thomas Berry son of John and \\ann, born near Penrith. This family travelled. Thomas married Martha Hutchinson, may children born in Penrith, marriage a mystery.

Also John Keenan from Ireland and Elizabeth McKenzie born Carlisle. All travelled but graduated to Cockermouth where many are buried and others went to America - hence the census above.

We have evidence of licenced hawkers - and hawking without a licence! - selling pottery as travellers but also one branch were involved in manufacture of pottery and had a shop in the town.

I'll get back tomorrow though the family may see your post. I just happen to live in the area and have made somed friends from the family across the water!

Best wishes

Enjoy Rootschat!

Emms :)
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Tuesday 10 April 12 09:11 BST (UK): Hi Emms
Thanks so much for getting back, I am also in Cumbria
John Keenan & Elizabeth McKenzie are my GG Grandparents, Thomas Berry & Martha Hutchinson are my GGG Grandparents.
I can find no record of Elizabeths birth nor Elizabeth & Johns marriage same for Thomas & Mary
I have tracked the Keenan's from entering England to their dispersal around UK, USA, Canada, Australia and Im close to linking NZ
However, rather than just collecting names & dates, I am more interested in going back in time slowly gathering as much information as I go, photo's, documents, letters, wills, stories, so that I can build as much social history as possible.
I have quite a lot on Keenan's and am now trying to understand the McKenzie link which I believe introduced the Keenan's to the pot trade. Do you know if there are records of Hawkers licenses in Cumberland
Any help would be wonderful
Cheers
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: emmsthheight on Tuesday 10 April 12 12:12 BST (UK): Hi

Greta to hear back!

I'm afraid we've all had tyhe same lack of success with the marriages. It looks as if a marriage over the broom might be the explanation - any!

I did find a baptism which we think is Elizabeth's in Carlisle. They were camping behind the hedge close to where the bypass runs now on the census in 51!!

This was in Holy Trinity C hurch - now knocked down, at the botton of Wigton Road. I'm old enough to remember it's spire!

I found anfew baptisms in there, but I don't have the record with me. but I sent it to some other family and I may also have the email if they don't find it.

I'll send a link to my friend and I'll send you a private message with an email address in case I can send you some files.

I'm not sue how locakll you are, but there are graves for the family in Cockermouth and also Dearham. Some of my friend's family ha ve been to see the Cockermouth ones. I keep thinking I will look at the Dearham ones but there's a lot going on at the moment.

Best wishes

Emms :)
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Tuesday 10 April 12 12:41 BST (UK): Emms
Your wonderful
Ive spent all morning trying to find Elizabeth on 41 & 51 census but no luck, tried lots of combinations of spelling but nothing.
I think I found John & Elizabeth (Parents) on 51 census spelled McKinsey they are at Holme Abbey but only with son Charles, who is Elizabeth with on 51
The other family you mention, is that Chuck and Joanne if so I am in regular contact
Im living in Carlisle, don't know if you know SW a Keenan descendant living in north yorkshire
She's coming over on Thursday and we plan to visit the archived in the morning and drive out to Dearham/Cockermouth in the afternoon
You're welcome to join us all/part day
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: emmsthheight on Tuesday 10 April 12 12:42 BST (UK): PS
(Second attempt. It just ate the first one!)

I did look at all the hawking licences a couple of years ago. They were in Carlisle and at the time they were off site though they should be at the new record office now.

they took the form of a register in a book, by year with name and town.

The interesting thing was that a large proportion on each page were your family and the families they married into such as Youing and McCulloch. Also they went from 19c well into 20C and where there were names repeated for years on end they often had a year or two missing.

Did they correspond with the reports in the paper for hawking without a licence???!!!

Again I do not have my records with me.

I'll be in touch with my friend and get back.

Best wishes

Emms
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: emmsthheight on Tuesday 10 April 12 12:47 BST (UK): i

Crossed with you!

How exciting!

No I don't know your family from Yorkshire, but how kind of you to invite me. I'll send a pm about Thursday. I don't want to gatecrash and I'm not 100% at the moment but I might manage the CVockermouth &/or Dearham bit.

Yes Joanne and Chuck are the family I'm in touch with.

I'd love to meet a real live Keenan - I was in Carlsile earlier.

Thank you again.

Best wishes

Emms
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Tuesday 10 April 12 16:40 BST (UK): Sorry to disappoint Emms but i'm not a real live Keenan
My Grandmother was Elizabeth Keenan
The lady who will be with me Thursday is also a grand daughter of a Keenan
Actually we haven't met before either, we were introduced my Chuck
If you'd like to spend the afternoon with us, it would be a pleasure not a gatecrash
Let me know and we'll make a plan to pick you up after archives
Anyway, 3 heads will be better than 1 at solving riddles
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: emmsthheight on Wednesday 11 April 12 18:55 BST (UK): Hi

You defntely count as a real live Keenan to me!

Much closer than me anyway!

If you're nstill up for it ntomorrow pm sounds great.

I'll pm you some more details and you can see what you think. I'll see what info I have with me too.

Take care

Emms
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Wednesday 11 April 12 19:21 BST (UK): Hi Emms your message came as I'm digging away at records again
I Will leave home About 8.30
my e-mail is (*)

(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.

New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: streetprice on Sunday 15 July 12 19:03 BST (UK): I have discovered a great grandmother, Bridget Moran- who was the second wife of my great grandfather Peter McGinn- I think there was also a third wife but I have not discovered her yet. She is listed as an earthenware dealer living in Birkenhead up until about 1876 when she died of TB. I think she was born in Ireland. Anyone else know of earthenware dealers of that name in the Cheshire, Chester, Lancashire, Liverpool, North Wales area? Do you think she could have been from an Irish Traveller family? I am also interested in whether she would have made the pots (my sister is a potter) or bought and sold them. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Sunday 15 July 12 20:49 BST (UK): Selling pots & earthenware was a typical trade of travellers & gypsies
It is highly unlikely they made the wares as this involves a kiln and infrastructure which is expensive and not typical of a traveller
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: davidpaul on Sunday 15 July 12 21:25 BST (UK): i have ancesters as dish hawkers in scotland on 1911 they hawked verious things from baskets linin baskets to earthenware even flowers in scotland and cumbria and northumberland ,have one of them in durham as wireman hawker they travelled all over doing this.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Skoosh on Sunday 15 July 12 23:20 BST (UK): "Elfie Delfie" as they used to shout in my young day. Presumably a Delft origin?

Skoosh.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Wednesday 18 July 12 08:54 BST (UK): What a wonderful piece of information

"Elfie Delfie"

Do you think this may just have been your local mans calla, or common to all

Any ideas how to find more information on Hawkers calls
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Skoosh on Wednesday 18 July 12 10:01 BST (UK): Common to all in Glasgow's east end!

I like the wee story in Alastair Phillips, "My Uncle George", where a hawker wifie heavily encumbered with bundle & bairn calls at the Free Church manse in Fearn, Ross-shire, where George Mackay was the minister. His housekeeper gave her short shrift and told her never to come back. "Ye can kiss ma erse" retorted the traveller heading away from the door, "An ye can kiss ma erse as weel", echoed the bairn.

Skoosh.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Wild Woman on Friday 31 March 17 22:56 BST (UK): Thank you for sharing this!! ☺

1851
Whitehaven Preston Quarter

Pottery Lodge
Charles Lowther/60 /Travelling Potter/ NK/M/Head
Chucky Bob
(My Great Great Great Granda)

Martha
Margaret Lowther/58 /Travelling Potter/NK/M/Wife

(My Great Great Great Grandma)
William Lowther/27 /Travelling Potter/NK/U/Son

Pottery Lodge
John Lowther /24 /Travelling Potter/ NK/M/Head
Jane Lowther/ 18/Travelling Potter/NK/M/Wife

NK = Not Known for place of birth

Pottery lodge seems to be associated with the Trousdale pottery manufacturers. I imagine these are outhouses that families stayed in while they bought new merchandise.

Pottery Lodge also Potters Lonning!
:) These Lowthers are my relatives!!! Theirs a few more children to be added though :-) Thank you for sharing this!
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Saturday 01 April 17 06:01 BST (UK): Hi
I don't know how many people are still connected to this thread, but it would be great to revive the conversation.
Since my last post (several years ago) I've spent many happy hours researching my Travelling ancestors, Keenan's, Berry's, Knowles, Hutchinson's, McKenzie's Strickland's and the families they married into, Lowther, Miller, Lovell, Dewsnap etc. etc. I'm in regular contact with other family cousins. and we have been working together researching, and more recently using DNA to increase our knowledge of our Travelling family and Hawkers in general.
Our families Travelled Cumberland, Westmorland, North Lancashire, North Yorkshire, Durham and Scotland.
Since my last post I have a much greater knowledge of Travelling families in general and mine in particular, I have followed families as the emigrated for better lives to USA and Canada and have at least 2 who were given penal servitude and transported to Australia and I'm in contact with their descendants. Anyone interested in more chat, or would like to PM me, I'd be happy to answer what I can. I'd love to hear fro you EMMS if you're still linked to this
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Wild Woman on Saturday 01 April 17 08:16 BST (UK): Hello :-) My Grandas(still with me) his Grandma was Martha Lowther (Hawker) whos Dad was Charles Robert Lowther and Mum Margaret Lowther they had other children Ellen,Jane,Wilfred and Ann. Me and my Granda would love to have any info you have about them passed on. We have struggled to find places of birth etc or any record of the family with them being travellers. My Granda idolised Martha and said she was a lovely woman(she sold fish) She married Tom Crickerd. Im excited to hear from you :-) Any stories,books to read etc would be grand. I know that the families base was at Potters Lonning,Workington.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Saturday 01 April 17 10:46 BST (UK): I'd be happy to try to help you
PM me your e-mail address and we can correspond there
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: Susan Smith on Sunday 30 June 19 21:11 BST (UK): I too am related to Shufflebottoms and find a striking resemblance between this man, my cousin and his son

Susan
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: cbcarolyn on Monday 01 July 19 10:00 BST (UK): I have just read through this very old thread not seen it before I don't think, and has answered some of the questions that I had been pondering on.

My Husbands family had this occupation, seemingly in the North East, and the travelling across the country to Wales, where is ancestor had a shop as a china and glass dealer. surnames are no match to any mentioned on here

Proctor, Worth and Bostock.

The odd thing about the family name they seem to have used both surnames of the parents worth and proctor and made researching a bit confusing.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Monday 01 July 19 10:12 BST (UK): Travelling families were very suspicious of anyone in authority, due to historical persecution.
They disliked any kind of form filling eg. census and often deliberately gave the wrong name.
My 4G Grandmothers 2nd husband went under Dewsnap, Dewsnip, Dowsnop, Dowsnip, Snapdew, Tuesnap and Parsnip, and that's the ones I know of.
My 5G Grandmother had 14 alias's that I know of.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: cbcarolyn on Monday 01 July 19 23:06 BST (UK): so it maybe just to keep everyone on their toes then! I was thinking it was the family name that they wanted to keep, but makes sense.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Tuesday 02 July 19 06:22 BST (UK): Obviously I don't know details about your family, but generally they disguised their names to hide their petty crimes. Most Travellers were poachers etc. and if caught in a different town to their last offence, would change their name.
Have a searched newspapers, they are a wonderful source of info on Travellers.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 02 July 19 10:04 BST (UK): This is very interesting as I have traveler ancestors who used alias names and I have never been quite sure if this was by accident or design. I have 2 x Great Grandparents called James and Elizabeth Conroy (nee Fitzpatrick) - they did not marry officially in an RC Church until 1859 - 12 years after the birth of their first child. Some of the job descriptions attributed to James were besom maker, basket maker, earthernware dealer, and hawker.

When I first started looking in to the background of his family I started to suspect that they and other family members were occasionally using the alias names of Gilroy and Kilroy. I finally got proof of this when I read a court case concerning them in a newspaper and the defence said in court that the jury should understand if anyone referred to Gilroy they were really referring to Conroy. This was in 1857.

Strangely, James' Grandson - a baby called Thomas Conroy died in the 1880's. I had such a hard job trying to find any death record of the baby. At this point the family were in Birtley and there are quite a number of records for them at this Church spanning a number of years - but no mention of Thomas. Then one day the penny dropped that he might be under the old alias name and I looked again at the death entries and sure enough there was an entry for a Thomas Gilroy. His death was also registered as Thomas Gilroy it would seem. I do not know why they might have still be using that alias name by that point. Surely the priest would have known them to be called Conroy? Perhaps it was an accident.

My Conroy ancestors are also linked by marriage to the Millers of Northumberland through the line of Jacob and Jane Miller nee Anderson.

My Great Grandmother was called Bridget Conroy nee McCabe and her Mother's maiden name was Hoey. Her family came over from Ireland but I do not know if her side of the family were travelers but her husband - my Great Grandfather Simon Peter Conroy's family definitely were.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Tuesday 02 July 19 11:22 BST (UK): Hi River Tyne Lass
Researching Travelling families is very challenging, but very rewarding.
Looking at the family names you follow, Watson, Miller, Brown, Young, Allen are all family names associated with Travellers. You will often find that they married within their own community.
Travellers were very superstitious, and generally always married and had their children baptised. (this is still the case today). If you've found a marriage 12 years after a birth, it may be a 2nd marriage. Have a look for the 1st marriage somewhere like Gretna Green, or Alisons Bank Toll House which were a favourite for Travellers. Baptisms often happened years after the birth, the next time they came to a favoured/lucky church. Often more than 1 child was baptised at a time.
Many genealogists get thrown out by this, as they record the year of baptism as the same year as the birth. This then throws the year of birth out on later census. I have someone on my tree who was 7 when baptised as his mum was in prison 8)
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 02 July 19 12:08 BST (UK): I totally agree, it can be challenging but extremely rewarding.

My two x Great Grandparents James and Elizabeth were described in court as from the 'mugger tribe' and as tinkers. There is quite a lot to their story as they were involved in a notorious court case which became known in the press as the 'Matfen Murder' !856/1857) and were accused of murdering their landlady with a family of Allens/Andersons. Personally, I do not believe my ancestors committed this murder but I do have my suspicions about one of their lodgers who was called Michael Allen but in my mind I do not think he was the only suspect. I think there were others who did not get to court who may also have been suspects. They were all acquitted on the grounds of not sufficient evidence. Apparently, there was a big gathering of gypsies outside the court in Newcastle to greet my ancestors after they were acquitted. In the newspapers I do get a strong sense of prejudice.
My family were closely linked with the Miller family. Although, I can't prove it as yet I suspect that Jane Anderson who married Jacob Miller had some sort of family connection to the Anderson/Allen family that my ancestors were put on trial with.

In my ancestors case, I really don't think it was a second marriage they were both extremely young when they started having children. I think James was about 17. Their first child was Mary, then Joseph, Simon Peter - my Great Grandfather, James, John, Michael, Thomas, Catherine and Elizabeth. The last two daughters died very young. They married at the same Church their son Michael was baptized at in Stella, Durham. Their first three children were baptized at St Robert RC Church in Morpeth, the next two - James and John at St Francis Xavier in Cheeseburn Grange, Michael at the RC Church in Stella, Gateshead, Thomas and the last two girls were baptized in Hexham.

The Brown and Young that I am following feature on my Mother's line of the family (non travelers) - having said that I do believe that my Great x 2 Grandfather's James' brother Joseph married a Mary Ann Allen but under the name of Joseph Gilroy at St Albans, Earsdon. Thereafter, they revert back to the Conroy surname. She had a sister in her family who married a Young.

I am really enjoying reading your posts hiyamarra - these are really interesting and enlightening. :)
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Tuesday 02 July 19 15:17 BST (UK): Hi again
From your user name, am I correct in assuming that you are from the N.E. ?
If so, I'm at the other end of the A69.
Did you know that a mugger was someone who sold mugs. It's one of the earliest mentioned occupations of Travelling families, along with tinklers (the oldest occupation) which became tinkers and spooners who made spoons from bones.
You have to be careful about saying the Millers were a Northumbrian family ;) I know lots of descendants of Cumbrian Millers, and they all had Jacobs in the family. As far as I know, I don't have any direct ancestors who were Millers, but there is no doubt my ancestors were closely associated with Millers.
I actually believe the Millers were Scottish, and I have provenance that William Miller b1712 in Dumfriesshire, may have been the first Traveller in the family. He served an apprenticeship as a brazier to Andrew Stewart of the Grass Market in Edinburgh from the age of 10. At 15 he left to join the 11th Regiment of foot soldiers. He left the Army in 1745 after probably serving in America (at one time he claimed to be American) and became a Travelling tinkler.
The more you dig into these characters, the deeper you get.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: cbcarolyn on Tuesday 02 July 19 23:39 BST (UK): Quote from: hiyamarra on Tuesday 02 July 19 06:22 BST (UK)
Obviously I don't know details about your family, but generally they disguised their names to hide their petty crimes. Most Travellers were poachers etc. and if caught in a different town to their last offence, would change their name.
Have a searched newspapers, they are a wonderful source of info on Travellers.

i have searched a lot, but found very little, so maybe mine were not so interesting! will have to have another go as there are more newspapers all the time.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Tuesday 02 July 19 23:52 BST (UK): Maybe yours were goodies :) I have goodies baddies and outright scallywags
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 03 July 19 10:41 BST (UK): Hi hiyamarra,

Yes, I know you are right about the Cumberland aspect of the Miller background.

Just to give you a bit more background on how my ancestors were linked to theirs - my Great Grandfather Simon Peter Conroy had a brother called Thomas Conroy who married the eldest child of Jacob and Jane Miller nee Anderson - wife was called Isabella. Also my Great Grandfather's sister Mary Conroy had a daughter called Elizabeth to her husband William Watson. This daughter married Michael Miller who was the son of the above mentioned Jacob and Jane. There is a Margaret Dalton who gave an emergency baptism to one of my Great Grandfather's young sisters before she died. I believe this daughter to have been a sister of the above Jacob. Margaret Miller married Patrick Dalton in Corbridge. I also suspect that the Jacob Miller's sister Ann is linked with my ancestors - she married a Peter Conroy.

I believe the above mentioned Jacob Miller's parents were Jacob (Wigton) and Ann Miller nee Readhead (Rothbury) and his Grandparents to have been Thomas Readhead and Beatrix Arkle.
The above mentioned Jacob (the younger) was baptized at St Bartholomew in Longbenton but on the entry it is recorded that the family home abode was Gateshead at that time.

I also believe that his wife Jane Miller's parents were Alexander and Isabella Anderson. Can't remember now off the top of my head but I think her maiden name was Campbell.

By the way, another RootsChatter put this link below on the Northumberland Resources board the other day. If you look on Earsdon and if you put Jacob Miller in the search box you will see a grave stone for the Jacob and Jane above - also Michael Miller his brother and Sarah Miller his daughter and there is a Campbell. What relationship she had to the Millers I am not sure about.

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/pictures?userid={07E767B9-6071-47FE-B9B9-DAC9E87A8215}&inv=EA6123BAE2F1E6A&userid={07E767B9-6071-47FE-B9B9-DAC9E87A8215}&inv=EA6123BAE2F1E6A&albumid={3A315EDF-8E88-4861-8655-15F842968DC0}&groupid={78872CB1-0FBB-4682-84F7-86AEE61FF44B}

I already have a photo of this grave from when I visited the cemetery a good while back after having been told about it by another RootsChatter.

By the way, you mentioned on a post the other day about gypsies being very superstitious. This got me thinking. Even though, the traveler side of my family seems to stop with my Great Grandfather's generation - (from then on they became coalminers) - I do recall that my family were very superstitious about various things. I recall us having things like a 'lucky rabbits foot' 'lucky pixie' and my Dad nailed a horse shoe to the wall of the house in a 'U' shape - apparently your luck was meant to run out if you nailed it upside down. I remember as a child searching for lucky four leaf clovers. I am not superstitious now, but your post made me recall all these incidental things from my past.

Another little thing to mention is that as a child - it would always be a tradition to go to Morpeth in the holidays. We would have a picnic, walk around, go to the market and go on the rowing boats. I have found that my ancestors feature very strong in the Morpeth area and I do wonder if our tradition of going to Morpeth might link back to connections with them. My parents have both passed on - so too late to ask Dad in particular why it was always a tradition to go to Morpeth and why he seemed to love the place so much.

Oh and yes, I am from the North East. :)
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Wednesday 03 July 19 16:35 BST (UK): Lots of information there, you are obviously well and truly hooked ;)
Personally I love to research in detail, like you do. It almost becomes like you know your ancestors personally.
Keep it up.
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: sandi on Thursday 27 April 23 21:12 BST (UK): Hello,
I am in the process of trying to find more info on the Trousdale/Truesdale family who were earthenware manuafctures in St Bees, Cumberland. I have posted before but now I serioously need to lay this family to bed and move on.

Having looked at the parish records for St Bees, I find Frances Trousdale born 1800 was the son of John Truesdale and Sarah Rickerby. ( married 1799)John lists his occupation as a potter. It also states "John of Gins"does anyone know is this is an area in St. Bees?
The Trousdale name takes on may variations of spelling it is getting very confusing.
Many thanks
Sandi
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: hiyamarra on Friday 28 April 23 10:35 BST (UK): Hello
Hopefully, I can give you some ideas to help you on your way.
The parish of St Bees covered a very large area which includes the town of Whitehaven.
Gins is an area of Whitehaven and was the site of the Whitehaven pottery.
The Gins pottery was established in 1819 by Sir William Lowther who leased it to Woodnorth, Harrison, and Hall. There may have been an earlier pottery on the same site.
It is possible that your ancestors may have manufactured pottery, but I would suggest this is not so.
Someone described as a "Potter" at that time, was usually a Traveller or Gypsy, and this is more likely.
Try joining the Facebook group "Cumberland Travelling Families" I'm sure someone there may be able to help
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: sandi on Friday 28 April 23 15:34 BST (UK): Thank you that was really useful.
I will definitely look at joining the facebook group.
Thanks again
Sandu
Title: Re: Hawker of pots/earthenware
Post by: sandi on Wednesday 03 May 23 21:07 BST (UK): I have now joined the FB Group so hopefully something will come up.
I viiste dthe local libary today and accessed the Newspappers on line and I was surprised to find an article which read.
When John Truesdell / Trousdall died the Earthenware Manufactory will be carried out by his son, Francis.
Another report shows in 1844 the Freehold property and contents held by Francis were sold at auction by John Kitchen of the Ginns pottery.
I still have some researching to do

Printed from www.RootsChat.com.
All Census Lookups are Crown Copyright, National Archives for academic and non-commercial research purposes only.