RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: andycadman on Tuesday 17 June 08 23:28 BST (UK)
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I believe that 2 Raddlebarn Road, Selly Oak, Northfield, Kings Norton is a place were single mothers to be went to give birth to illegitimate children. I also believe that it may have been a workhouse.
This address was given on a birth certificate dated 1910 that I have.
Can anyone please confirm this and perhaps tell me a little more about this place at this time?
I believe that many of the records have been lost.
Any further information on this establishment at this time would be much appreciated.
Andy
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Andy ,
Have Pm'd you,
Kaz
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Thanks for the PM Kaz. Your info adds to the picture.
What I think is 2, Raddlebarn Road was an address that registrars are known to have used for Kings Norton Workhouse. I think it was the workhouse infirmary. Also I think in those days possibly the workhouse infirmary was the nearest thing to an NHS hospital. This can be seen on the workhouse web site. There's no doubt this was a probably proper professional hospital. It's only a few years later that the workhouses and their hospitals were to be handed over to local authorities and the term 'workhouse' would become history!
I hope that I am thinking along the right lines. Perhaps someone can help here. I would just like to know a little more about what life was like at that place at that time. Also to find any records for 1910 if they still exist anywhere.
Andy
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Andy,
Have you seen this site:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?KingsNorton/KingsNorton.shtml
K
Oops ..of course you have - you've just mentioned it.Sorry - must be having a "moment"...which is obviously lasting a long time!!
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Thanks Kaz,
I have seen the web site, but your posting has given me another thought.
Should this discussion be under Worcestershire? I believe the birth certificate has Worcestershire on it.
I always think of Birmingham as Warwickshire, but not all of it was!
Andy
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Andy,
Can't help you there i'm afraid. However, if no one can help you on this website then you may wish to try:
http://forum.birminghamhistory.co.uk/index.php
Regardless of which part of Birmingham they may be able to help/point you in the right direction.
Kaz
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Many thanks for the tip Kaz. I will give it a try in two days time as user registration has been temporarily suspended on this site.
Andy
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This place is still there. It became Selly Oak Hospital.
My great aunt was also born there ~ when her mother was unmarried. She was baptised in a private ceremony and I found the details of that in Birmingham Central Library ~ I think under records for St Mary's church.
The site was for Kings Norton Union Workhouse and also also Kings Norton Union Infirmiary.
It was in Worcestershire and the area became part of Greater Birmingham in 1911.
(Coincidentally, my elder son was also born there ~ in 1986!)
It is now part of University Hospital Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust:
http://www.uhb.nhs.uk/
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Well of course that address does sound like Selly Oak Hospital today...but...there was also a place on Raddlebarn Road that was opposite St Edwards RC School....the place was a very big building indeed owned by the RC Church and single RC mothers would go there to be 'helped' with their births !! it was staffed by Nuns and the place was called 'Woodville' that building was demolished many years ago and now on the site is St Mary's Hospice
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The Birmingham Electoral Roll for 1912 shows Walter Stephens living at 2 Raddlebarn Road, Selly Oak
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03ow/
Susan :)
Added: He's still there 1925-1939 - No. 2 sounds like a "normal" house :-\
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It must depend, then, on whether one was RC or CofE, wchich side of the road the illegitimate babies were born.
My gt aunt was born 1905 or 1906 ~ I can't remember exactly off hand. The Christening was registered under St Marys C of E church, Selly Oak.
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As I said earlier, what I think is 2, Raddlebarn Road was an address that registrars are known to have used for Kings Norton Workhouse around 1910, I have heard of several instances of this and 1 and 1a Raddlebarn Road also may have been used. I hope that this thinking is along the right lines.
I would just like to know a little more about what life was like at that place at that time. Also to find any records for 1910 if they still exist anywhere.
Do you think Tricia_2 that most of the illegitimate children born there were baptised at St Mary's church - did you see any evidence of this in your research?
Andy
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Andy,
I would have to find & check my notes, but I am pretty sure that there was a batch of such christenings ~ all together in the records of St Mary's.
Whether the mothers & babies were taken there, or whether a minister went to the hospital / workhouse for the 'private' baptisms, and they were written up in the baptism register, later, I don't know.
I'm sure that experts will know, though.
Good luck.
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As St Mary's church & school is on the doorstep....the clergy wouldn't have had far to go anyway..........likewise with the RC version further down Raddlebarn Road....Woodville was almost opposite St Edwards Church and school....
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Many thanks for that Mike, I will have to try and have a look at the records when I can. I live some distance from Brimingham.
Thanks also for your response Tricia_2 - have only just seen it.
Andy
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I live further away from there than you now...but I spent over 55 years there...not at St Edwards all the time ha ha....but lived right there for all those years....Kings Norton in the old days went right down to Balsall Heath...which of course changed ages ago....but very off putting when you think that KN was classed as Worcestershire then too.
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Hi,
I too have been looking into the address "2 Raddlebarn Road" which appears on an ancestors death certificate in 1922.
Having checked up on various sites it seems that Selly Oak Hospital began to be run from 1922 onwards and I assume that those folks who needed the aid of the former workhouse & its infirmary were cared for there.
There is a house in the electoral books which shows that the Stephens family lived at 2 Raddlebarn Road from 1912 until at least 1939, Mr Stephens worked as a storeman in a chocolate factory, Cadburys I assume.
I have read several entries on various forum sites relating to the births of children to unmarried mothers & deaths which were registered as taking place at 2 Raddlebarn Road for several years in the early 1900's when clearly the same address was the postal address for the Stephens family. Some of the certificates were dated to the end of the 1920's. I therefore assume that the local authorites continued to use 1, 1a & 2 Raddlebarn Road as
addresses upon certificates even when it first became known as Selly Oak Hospital instead of the workhouse, perhaps because it still cared for the former inmates and was still being used to disguise the fact that they had been workhouse inmates.
Does anyone know when 1, 1a & 2 Raddlebarn Road ceased to be addresses that were used by the local authorities for the use on certificates please?
Thanks,
Treefan.
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My Father was also born at 2 Raddlebarn Road in the June 1921, I have his Birth Cert to validate this.
I was also told it was the workhouse infirmary, his mothers address is down as the same on Cert,so Im guessing along with others it was used for part of the workhouse overload maybe.?
I am going to find my source for the info I was able to find out from on another site,and re-read the info given me.
Sophiedog.
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Hi Sophiedog,
Many thanks for letting me know about your father's birth details.
If you find out anything else of interest about the workhouse/infirmary & the use of the addresses I would be very interested to learn from you.
Thank You,
Treefan.
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Hi Treefan. I have found my notes on 2 Raddlebarn Road,and the funny thing is it was a question (post) I put on this site on the 14/2/2008 asking for info on this subject of the above address and it was Peter Goodey a member of this site who answered my question and here is his answer to me.
I *Quote* from my notes as follows;
These addresses that the registrars are known to have used for Kings Norton workhouse include;
1a Raddlebarn Road
1b Raddlebarn Road
2 Raddlebarn Road
There may well be other variations that I don't know about.
These are not postal addresses-there never really was a 1a and 1b and a 2 (although there may be today as a result of development and renumbering).
Its just a form of words used to obscure the place of birth. The point of all this was so that the child would not suffer the stigma of having his Birth Cert showing a birth place of the workhouse.
END OF QUOTE;
Hope this is of some help to you.
Sophiedog
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Many thanks again Sophiedog.
The thing that I find strange is that although I now know that 1, 1a & 2 Raddlebarn Road were addresses that were allotted to the local authorities to use representing the workhouse/infirmary/unmarried mothers home in order to disguise the true facts to save face for the families involved for certificate purposes there actually was really a 2 Raddlebarn Road which was the home of the Stephens family from at least 1912 to 1939 -- Mr Stephens was a store keeper in the local chocolate factory and the family can be found in the Birmingham electoral records under the address 2 Raddlebarn Road for all those years.
I think it very odd that the local authorities used an address (even though it was only on paper) when the address was also a real postal address in existance at the same time.
Thanks again,
Treefan.
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Hi Treefan,I thought the same as you, when I read your post.
I was wondering if Mr Stephens,let out rooms at this house to my Grandparents in 1921 when my father was born there. Just a thought ! Have you been able to look in the 1911 census , (sorry Im still new to this,) or is that the same as the electoral records.?
Sophiedog.
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Hi Sophiedog,
Over a period of time since we have been looking into 2 Raddlebarn Road due to it being the address on an ancestors death certificate we have come across a great number of others too for both deaths & births -- there are far too many for it to have been possible for them all to have been lodgers of the Stevens family, they must have been inmates of either the workhouse, the infirmary or the unmarried mother's home for it to make sense.
Someone who presently lives in the area told us that the houses in that area were owned by the Cadbury Trust for use of the Cadbury workers. Mr Stephens was indeed a Cadbury worker so this may be correct but we have never checked this out as yet -- perhaps someone else may know?
I have checked the 1911 census & Mr Stephens & his wife are still in residence there.
Treefan.
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Morning Treefan, it is indeed a mystery,and I don't know where to go from here to solve it.
A long shot ,but are there not any Archive Records up in Birmingham to help us.I don,t know anything much about Birmingham as I live in the South of England,I only know my Father was born there.
I wonder if we will ever find out ?
Best wishes.
Sophiedog.
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It's great to see that a topic that I started over a year ago now come back to life.
My father was born at 2, Raddlebarn Road in 1910. In the 1911 census it seems my father William George age six months was staying with Childminders at 37, Norman Street, Winson Green in Birmingham. His mother Norah was working as a Domestic Servant at 37, Havelock Road, Handsworths approx 2.5 miles away. So by then they had moved away from the "hospital".
Can I go back to my original question:
What I think is 2, Raddlebarn Road was an address that registrars are known to have used for Kings Norton Workhouse. I think it was the workhouse infirmary. Also I think in those days possibly the workhouse infirmary was the nearest thing to an NHS hospital. This can be seen on the workhouse web site. There's no doubt this was a probably proper professional hospital. It's only a few years later that the workhouses and their hospitals were to be handed over to local authorities and the term 'workhouse' would become history!
I hope that I am thinking along the right lines. Perhaps someone can help here. I would just like to know a little more about what life was like at that place at that time. Also to find any records for 1910 if they still exist anywhere.
The other possible avenue of research is that I believe the nearby St Mary's church was used to baptise the children born there. If so is it possible for anyone to do a look up to see if a "Cadman" was baptised there on or after 20th September 1910. And let me have the details.
If anyone can help it would be very much appreciated.
Many thanks,
Andy
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Hi Andy,
I do go to the Birmingham Central Library once in a blue moon so I shall make a note of your query and try to have a look for you -- I don't know when it will be though so bare with me please.
Treefan.
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Morning Treefan, it is indeed a mystery,and I don't know where to go from here to solve it.
A long shot ,but are there not any Archive Records up in Birmingham to help us.I don,t know anything much about Birmingham as I live in the South of England,I only know my Father was born there.
I wonder if we will ever find out ?
Best wishes.
Sophiedog.
Hi,
I don't know when I shall be able to get to B'ham Library to try to find out more but when I do I shall let you know.
Treefan.
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If you could find out more at Birmingham library for me Treefan that would be really appreciated - Andy
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If you could find out more at Birmingham library for me Treefan that would be really appreciated - Andy
I would also appreciate a Baptism for a Dennis J Adams born 16/6/1921 ( birth at 2 Raddlebarn Road )
Thats if he was Baptised at all. !!
please if its possible and not too much for you Treefan. Thank you.
Edited; This question we would all like an answer to was also at one time being discussed on another well known site,and still came back with the same answers we have on here. here is another Quote from there.
Quote;No 2 is a house,its on the corner of Raddlebarn &Willow Rd, part of the Bournville Village Trust Area.its still there as I past it the other day,the workhouse was across the road,now Selly Oak Hospital.End of Quote.( Dated 19/8/2008 )
Sophiedog
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I have a death certificate that was (I think) 1 back Raddlebarn Road, which was Kings Norton Workhouse. That was in 1924.
I believe that in the early 20th century, a law was passed that forced registrar's to put down the address of the workhouse as a number and road, basically to stop Workhouse being on the certificate's. People who needed medical help, but could not afford it, often chose to enter the workhouse, so that they could use the worhouse hospital. I have looked through the records for Burton Union Workhouse in Staffordshire, and there is plenty of cases were people enter the workhouse, are sent to the hospital, and either die or leave soon afterwards.
In 1930 (or there abouts), Neville Chamberlain (a local man!) passed a law that rewrote the poor law system. The workhouse were closed - children went to orphanges. The problem was, they could not get rid of the adults (and possibly some children) already in the workhouse, and I have no idea how long it would have taken for them to stop taking new cases in.
When Clement Attlee won the 1945 general election, he set up the NHS, which took over many of the old workhouses to use as hospitals. It is very likley that this is when Selly Oak Hospital was born, although I can not prove/disprove that.
Tippin
PS: Kings Norton was in Worcestershire. Worcestershire used to bend round into Warwickshire, so that places on the east of Birmingham, like Yardley and Moseley, were in Worcestershire. In fact, Birmingham used to be in three counties - Warwickshire, Worcestershire (to the south, and parts of the east), and Staffordshire (to the west).
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Hi Tippin,
I have been looking into the Kings Norton workhouse due to ancestor's connections and I have discovered that in 1912 Kings Norton was amalgamated with the Birmingham Poor Law Union & in 1922 the former Kings Norton Workhouse became Selly Oak Hospital.
Treefan.
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If you could find out more at Birmingham library for me Treefan that would be really appreciated - Andy
Hi Andy,
Well I finally managed to get to visit the Birmingham Central Library & I had success in finding your grandfather's bapism in the baptism register book for St. Mary's Churcn. The entry read as follows :-
Born 20th September 1910
Baptised 17th october 1910
William George Cadman
Mother = Norah
Place of birth = Kings Norton Union Infirmary
Service was performed by G T Miller
I hope that is of help to you.
With best wishes,
Treefan.
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If you could find out more at Birmingham library for me Treefan that would be really appreciated - Andy
I would also appreciate a Baptism for a Dennis J Adams born 16/6/1921 ( birth at 2 Raddlebarn Road )
Thats if he was Baptised at all. !!
please if its possible and not too much for you Treefan. Thank you.
Edited; This question we would all like an answer to was also at one time being discussed on another well known site,and still came back with the same answers we have on here. here is another Quote from there.
Quote;No 2 is a house,its on the corner of Raddlebarn &Willow Rd, part of the Bournville Village Trust Area.its still there as I past it the other day,the workhouse was across the road,now Selly Oak Hospital.End of Quote.( Dated 19/8/2008 )
Sophiedog
Hi there,
I have finally managed to get to the library to do some more research & I tried to find the baptism entry for Dennis J Adams for you. I searched through the baptism book for St Mary's church but sadly couldn't find an entry for his baptism
Sorry.
Best Wishes,
Treefan.
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Thank you so much Treefan for finding my fathers baptism.
It means a lot to me.
Best Wishes,
Andy
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Hi Andy,
It was my pleasure. I had hoped that the baptisms would be on film so that I could get a photocopy of the entry for you but instead I had to look through the old parish register book and I'm afraid that I didn't have my camera with me. Now that you know the details though, perhaps you could send off for a copy from the library.
With best wishes,
Jan.
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Hi Jan,
I now have the reference, which is just what I wanted.
I will have to get in touch with the library for a copy.
Also important for this topic - any one who has a birth certificate with the address 2, Raddle Barn Road, Circa 1910, now know that the child is likely to have been baptised at St Mary's Church.
Thanks again,
Andy
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Your comment about the baptisms taking place at St Mary's church is indeed correct -- there were many baptisms all done at the same time all being born at the Union infirmary.
Treefan.
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If you could find out more at Birmingham library for me Treefan that would be really appreciated - Andy
I would also appreciate a Baptism for a Dennis J Adams born 16/6/1921 ( birth at 2 Raddlebarn Road )
Thats if he was Baptised at all. !!
please if its possible and not too much for you Treefan. Thank you.
Edited; This question we would all like an answer to was also at one time being discussed on another well known site,and still came back with the same answers we have on here. here is another Quote from there.
Quote;No 2 is a house,its on the corner of Raddlebarn &Willow Rd, part of the Bournville Village Trust Area.its still there as I past it the other day,the workhouse was across the road,now Selly Oak Hospital.End of Quote.( Dated 19/8/2008 )
Sophiedog
Hi there,
I have finally managed to get to the library to do some more research & I tried to find the baptism entry for Dennis J Adams for you. I searched through the baptism book for St Mary's church but sadly couldn't find an entry for his baptism
Sorry.
Best Wishes,
Treefan.
Hi Treefan,My father was born there in 1921 so I am guessing you looked for that year and not 1910 for my father.Thanks for trying for me .
Sophiedog.
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Hi,
Just to confirm that I did indeed look for the year 1921, sorry that I had no success.
Treefan.
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Thanks so much Freefan :)
Sophiedog.
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As a side issue to this...
Phill Lynott was an illegitimate child who lived on Raddlebarn Road and was baptised at St Edwards.
I was born in Selly Oak hospital in the late 40's
Lived at the Shop which is now Kirks top of Hubert road till I was 5
Lived at Gristhorpe road and went to Raddlebarn school till I was 11. then
Moved "round the cnr" to Willow Road, Bournville
My step father still lives there.
I had no idea of the existence of the work house.
Everything changes. Selly Oak Hospital is all but closed now.
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I have no idea if anyone is still looking at this thread but I am researching my Great Grandmother – another child of Raddlebarn Road (1908) and need some details to link her to the right person (two of same name and date of birth were found on Ancestry.com), which I hope can be gleaned from the Baptism Cert. The info on this page has been amazing, especially the church of baptism info.
I am in Dublin Ireland and hope to get over to Birmingham soon to make this search if needs be. If anyone here was researching in the library anyhow, I would be indebted if they would be able to look up the baptism cert. The right link would put me with either contemporary living relations now in California, or a dead end on other side. As I said, I will get over eventually but if there was anyone out there who would be in the Library anyhow I would be indebted.
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Hi there, could you supply more details please. What was your great grandmother's name and when was she born?
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Thanks Treefan,
Grandmother was Dora Willetts, born to Elizabeth Willetts in 2 Raddlebarn Road, 24 March 1908.
Elizabeth's address was listed as just Kings Heath. No listing for Father.
If we could find any more info about Elizabeth's address or her parents, we could cross reference her with some we have found. Very much appreciate your interest in helping.
Hi there, could you supply more details please. What was your great grandmother's name and when was she born?
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(two of same name and date of birth were found on Ancestry.com)
The General Records Office has only 1 Dora Willetts registered in 1908 in the King's Norton Reg. District which is correct for Raddlebarn Rd.
Or do you mean there are 2 possible Elizabeth Willetts?
Is she the Dora Willits (sic) aged 3 listed as visitor in Balsall Heath in 1911?
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Hey Jim1,
Sorry - i did mean there are two Elizabeth Willetts born around the same time. That is indeed the Dora you mentioned. A non-adopted child she was listed as a ‘visitor’ on that census.
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two of same name and date of birth were found on Ancestry.com
So we don't give information you already have how do you know her date of birth?
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Thanks Treefan,
Grandmother was Dora Willetts, born to Elizabeth Willetts in 2 Raddlebarn Road, 24 March 1908.
Elizabeth's address was listed as just Kings Heath. No listing for Father.
If we could find any more info about Elizabeth's address or her parents, we could cross reference her with some we have found. Very much appreciate your interest in helping.
Hi there, could you supply more details please. What was your great grandmother's name and when was she born?
I assume from the information given by you that you have gleaned these details from the birth certificate for Dora Willetts. It appears that you are seeking more info re. Dora's mother in order to determine for certain which of the two ladies found in records showing two ladies of the same name is your own ancestor.
Birmingham Central Library holds records for 3 Poor Law Unions in the Birmingham area including Kings Norton which is where Dora was born. It may have been the case that Elizabeth Willets only spent time in the infirmary for the birthing of her daughter but it's also a possibility that she may have been an inmate of the workhouse too.
It would perhaps be an idea to make contact with Birmingham Central Library to make enquiries about a search of the records in the hope that more details might which might appear within the Union records might reveal more details about Elizabeth Willets which might help you to determine which of the two ladies she really was.
If anyone who lives locally is able to help you perhaps they might be able to visit the library to look through the records on your behalf.
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Hi again Treefan and Jim1,
Apologies for any confusing information. Here's what I know.
I am looking to find out any more info on Elizabeth Willetts – mother of Dora. I do have Dora's birth cert (born 24 March 1908) and an Elizabeth is listed on it but no more info, and nothing of the father at all. Elizabeth is listed as a Drapers Assistant of Kings Heath at the time of Dora's birth.
Now, there are two Elizabeth Willetts listed on the births for King's Norton's district that are likely this woman. One in April/May 1884 (Let's call her Elizabeth A) and one in Oct/Nov/Dec 1885 (Let's call her Elizabeth B).
There is also a third likely Elizabeth Willetts (Elizabeth C) who was listed on the 1911 Census as a single servant girl, aged 27, in Birmingham but there's no obvious connection to King's Heath or King's Norton here.
The information from Dora's baptism might hopefully link her mother to one of the Elizabeth's above by giving a home address outside the workhouse, or a date of Elizabeth's birth even. She has been provisionally linked to Elizabeth A above because of circumstantial evidence but we really can't be sure of this. Any small clue might help confirm this and this can only come from the documents around birth of Dora; Baptism cert or maybe the workhouse records.
Hope this clears up any info I have given to date and might aid any advice or assistance. Thank you all.
Simon
Thanks Treefan,
Grandmother was Dora Willetts, born to Elizabeth Willetts in 2 Raddlebarn Road, 24 March 1908.
Elizabeth's address was listed as just Kings Heath. No listing for Father.
If we could find any more info about Elizabeth's address or her parents, we could cross reference her with some we have found. Very much appreciate your interest in helping.
Hi there, could you supply more details please. What was your great grandmother's name and when was she born?
I assume from the information given by you that you have gleaned these details from the birth certificate for Dora Willetts. It appears that you are seeking more info re. Dora's mother in order to determine for certain which of the two ladies found in records showing two ladies of the same name is your own ancestor.
Birmingham Central Library holds records for 3 Poor Law Unions in the Birmingham area including Kings Norton which is where Dora was born. It may have been the case that Elizabeth Willets only spent time in the infirmary for the birthing of her daughter but it's also a possibility that she may have been an inmate of the workhouse too.
It would perhaps be an idea to make contact with Birmingham Central Library to make enquiries about a search of the records in the hope that more details might which might appear within the Union records might reveal more details about Elizabeth Willets which might help you to determine which of the two ladies she really was.
If anyone who lives locally is able to help you perhaps they might be able to visit the library to look through the records on your behalf.
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Many thanks for the extra information. I shall do my best to get the old grey cells into action for you!
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Hey there!
I'm researching my family tree and when I saw that my great-grandmother had died at 1B Raddlebarn Road, Selly Oak, I googled it and came across this site, not expecting that address to be an old workhouse. She died in 1938 so am I right in thinking it was a hospital then and she in fact died in a hospital not a workhouse?? She was married with children and wasn't born there so I was surprised to see she died in a workhouse (if it was a workhouse in 1938??).
Any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!
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Hi :)
Yes, it became Selly Oak Hospital. My grandfather died there and my elder son was born there, but it has recently been demolished. Understandable because it was outdated, but sad all the same :)
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From memory it closed in 2012 after the remaining services were moved to the new Queen Elizabeth hospital in Edgbaston in about October 2011. From memory I think that some of the original Victorian buildings haven't been demolished but have been kept as part of the redevelopment. There definitely were some still standing the other year when I drove past but haven't been that way for a year or so.