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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: c-side on Wednesday 18 June 08 20:32 BST (UK)
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I have an Italian Medal - still in it's box - which belonged to my grandfather who was in the Sherwood Foresters during WW1. Can anyone tell me what it was for?
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Any chance you can tell us what it looks like c-side ??
Or give us some details that would give people a chance to help you ? maybe your grandfathers name or any family stories you may have heard !! :)
Annie :)
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Sorry, Annie, I should have done that in the first place.
It's about the size of a pre-decimal penny and much the same colour. One side has three heads on it and the date 1918. The other side has three shields with crowns on the top and lances beside them - one shield looks as though it has the Union Jack on it. Underneith the shields are the words
NELLA FEDE FRATELLI E NELLA VITTORIA ----- ARMATA ALTIPIANI.
The trouble is I have never heard any stories about this - didn't even know it existed until my mother died and I acquired family bible, old photos and grandad's medals.
C
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Hello C,
It sounds like it is the Armata Altipiani Medal 1918.
It was a commemorative souvenir of the Battle of the Piave, 15th to 24th June 1918 apparently.
Phil
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Thanks, Phil.
I have never heard of this battle - must do research.
C
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the Armata Altipiani Medal, 1918 it is not an official medal but was otherwise struck by the Italian authorities as a commemorative souvenir of the Battle of the Piave, 15th-24th June, 1918. The British participation in the battle, principally involved the 23rd (Northern) Division, and the 48th (South Midland) Division, who were situated upon the Asiago Plateau !
I'm trying to get a picture ... to see if it's the same one !! ::)
Edit ........ Phil ... stop typing so fast ... you're too speedy for me !! :D
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does this work ??
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Certainly is - minus the safety pin!
Thanks Annie
C
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90 years this week !
http://www.1914-1918.net/BATTLES/bat1_italy.htm
Not forgotten
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There was a commemoration there at the weekend...
(http://www.postimage.org/aVAD3_J.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVAD3_J)
(http://www.postimage.org/gxEZhri.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxEZhri)
(http://www.postimage.org/gxETnN0.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxETnN0)
(http://www.postimage.org/gxEZ7sJ.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxEZ7sJ)
(http://www.postimage.org/gxF8OWi.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxF8OWi)
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So much information from one medal! You have inspired me to read up on the battle and also to return to "the box" with all the momentos in. Sure enough, if you put all the pieces together with a little donated knowledge it makes more sense.
The Christmas card from 1918 reads "Xmas Greetings from the 7th Division 1918 Italy". So that fits. The Christmas dinner menu card for the same year tells me that he was with B Company, 7th Battalion Machine Gun Corps.
What I still can't figure is how the Sherwood Foresters, whose officers were on horseback, fitted in with machine guns. I know from photographs that my grandfather had his horse with him - must have been very well trained horses!
Thanks again for all the information.
C
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Hello C,
Who was your grandfather? Can you point us in the direction of his medal card?
I can't see any connection between the Sherwood Foresters and 7th Division.
The transfer to the MGC would have been a complete move.
Here's a bit more reading for you :)
Another Rootschat thread on 7th Division, complete with Christmas card from Italy.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,308663.0.html
..........and a brief history of the MGC
http://www.1914-1918.net/mgc.htm
Phil
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Here's the memorial at Hyde Park Corner in London !
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=20373
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OK, so I'm probably approaching this military research backwards. The truth is I hadn't even thought of it until I discovered Rootschat a few weeks ago and wondered about the Italian medal. So I have never even seen a medal card, Phil, or indeed know what one is!
I've looked at the link to the other Christmas cards - I only have 1917 and 1918. The interesting thing is that the reverse of the 1918 card already posted has PIAVE hand-written under Assiago Plateau and so does mine. It's written in pencil. I wonder if they all do.
As to grandfather's identity - his name was Robert Potts Redford and he received his (temporary) commission as a 2nd lieutenant on 7th April 1915 - I have the original document. He would have been 23 at the time. I know he was in the Sherwood Foresters because he called his house Sherwood. As a child I remember asking why and that was his explanation. I never heard him talk much of the war but then I was only 18 when he died and probably wasn't interested enough to ask. He also served in WW11 - RAF that time.
C
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Hello C,
Here's the notice of his commission to 2nd Lieutenant in the London Gazette as well: Issue Number 30024. Page 3709. I haven't found his promotion to Lieutenant so far.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03o1/
Phil
PS - PM sent to you
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Here's his medal card ... also on A* !!
Medal card of Redford, Robert Potts
Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment Second Lieutenant
Machine Gun Corps Lieutenant
Date
1914-1920
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03o3/
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Thanks to Phil and Annie I am a lot wiser now than a few days ago but I still don't understand how the horse fits into the Machine Gun Corps.
Here is a photo of the man himself (if I can figure out how to do it) which, it says, was taken in Gambellara, N. Italy 1918 and he still has that horse!
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Hello Chrissie,
It looks like his service record may be at Kew in WO 339/40284.
I'll post a link later: got to eat :)
Phil
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The Machine Gun Corps used horses ..... the horses were used to haul cannons ammunition and so on and a horse doesn't get stuck the same way as a truck does in the mud ::) ::) ::)
But the officers used horses to get from A to B and your man was an officer !! :) :)
I have pictures of my officers and they nearly all seem to have a horse !!
Annie :)
PS You were asking about the use of pencil Chrissie ... that was all they had in the trenches ... war diaries were also mostly written in pencil !!
PPS ... wonder if he knew my Robert Stead ?? ::) ::) ::)
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This is the link to the catalogue. You won't find the record itself online.
It's the best fit searching Redford that I can find. It looks like he served from 1914 to 1920. The 1939 entry could be to do with the RAF.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03o9/
Officers files vary widely over how much they contain. I have one file of an officer with many years service which is only 25 pages and another who served a couple of years which has 150 pages (after a good 25% was destroyed by the War Office).
Phil
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There are times, Annie, when what I say and what I mean to say are two different things - something to do with engaging the brain before trying to use it. :-\ I knew about the pencils - I have a few postcards written in pencil. What I meant to say was that the word PIAVE is written on both cards in exactly the same place and could even be the same handwriting which seemed to be too much of a coincidence so I wondered whether it had been added to all the cards before they were issued.
I wonder if he did know your Robert Stead - all I know about my grandfather's service record is what appears on these pages but if your Robert was having Christmas dinner in 1918 with B Company in Gambellara......
Phil - I've checked out that link to the service records and I think it could well be him. When I finally absorb all of this I will follow up on it.
C
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I'd be thrilled if I knew "Our Robert " spent Christmas with your Granddad C !!! :)
But we'll never know as we don't know what he looks like !! :-\
I wonder if it was the censor that wrote "PIAVE" ..... ?? that's a possibility too !
Glad you feel like you're getting somewhere !! :)
Gets exciting after the first little bit of information .... just have to keep going !!
Annie :)
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And just to be a bit silly ......... this has to be my most favourite mounted picture !! :D :D
On Martyn Smith 's terrific site !
http://www.huntscycles.co.uk/index.html
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Why should Britain tremble when we have the seaside donkey ;D
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As for Annies suggestion of the censor writing in Piave...In my experience of military letters...The censor normally blocks out words...I have never seen them put in! :o
I would suggest though, that the penciled in bit is because they had a job lot done before Piave; so to keep them all up to date, the battle was put in apres the fighting (or during it!)
Have been digging though my library...have found a marvelous account of Piave in my mate Martin Marix Evans (another Northamptonshire lad...well adopted!) book...
"Forgotten Battlefronts of The First World War" published by Sutton in 2003 ISBN 0-7509-3004-7
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The Christmas cards must have taken some organisation - to have huge numbers printed, distributed to the troops, collected back in and censored and still have them arriving home before Christmas. They were probably printed well in advance but someone decided that Piave shouldn't be overlooked and had it added.
The other thing I noticed that my card has in common with the other post is that there is no message on either - just a signature - whereas the 1917 card had a personal message. Could it be that it took so long to write PIAVE on all the cards that the guys had no time to do anything but scribble their name??
I also have another 1918 MGC Christmas card - like a four page booklet containing message from the king and drawings of machine gunners. Why would they have two cards for the same event?
C
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At 11 a.m. on November 11, 1918 - the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month - a ceasefire came into effect !
Maybe because the war was over by Christmas 1918 - so that was a special card !!
Annie :)