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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: fionajka on Monday 30 June 08 04:38 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I am trying to find a birth for Harry HILDITCH.
I have located one record on the IGI where he listed as born 1876 Crewe, Cheshire. I need to confirm this if possible. Apparently his parents were John and Julia, but again, this is unconfirmed.
What I DO know is that he married Ethel GRIFFITHS, 1906 in Birkenhead, Cheshire. and they then went on to have a number of children both in Monmouth and Australia.
Essentially, I'm trying to find his parents and siblings if possible..
Any leads available?
Fiona
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Hi Fiona
Welcome to Rootschat.
I would be wary of the IGI record you have found, as it has been submitted by a member of the LDS Church so cannot be relied upon.
The birth on FreeBMD for 1876 is for a Harry Hilditch born in Stone, Staffordshire, reference Sept.1876 Stone 6b 31.
There is another birth reference Sept.1874 Congleton 8a 308 and another reference Dec.1878 Stoke T (Stoke on Trent) 6b 230. Any of these could be your Harry Hilditch.
You will need to buy the birth certificate to find out his parents, or as you know his wife's name, you could buy the marriage certificate, reference, Sept.1906 Birkenhead 8a 1111, if you don't already have it as that will give his father's name. From that you may be able to find him on the censuses before his marriage with his parents and possible date of birth to narrow down your options.
Lizzie
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Hi
According to a Pedigree Resource File on http://www.familysearch.org/ he and Ethel are alleged to have been born c1884. An exact birth and death date are given for Ethel plus her birth place details. The name of the person who submitted the information is also shown (but unfortunately no contact address)
As Lizzie says, these are details submitted by individuals rather than being taken from original church records and, as such, their validity cannot be guaranteed.
The 1906 Marriage seems to be the key to finding out who he was (unless you already have a bit more certain information about him that we can use)
According to http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/ the 1906 Marriage took place at the Baptist Church, Grange Road, Birkenhead.
If you do not wish to buy the certificate, someone may now be able to look it up in the register for you, if you ask.
DS :)
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It's nice to have less common names to search for! It appears to me that the correct birth entry is the one at Stone in 1876. However, I believe that he was the illegitimate son of a Julia Hilditch bp.3/8/1856 Alsager, Cheshire in 1856.
In 1881 Harry is a boarder with a couple (didn't note exact details) but in 1891 he's at Haslington, Cheshire with his grandparents.
George Hilditch 69 b. Bishton, Cheshire
Ann Hilditch 63 b. Alsager, Cheshire
Eliza Hilditch dau. 23 b. Haslington, Cheshire
Annie Hilditch g/dau 19 ditto
Harry Hilditch g/son 15 b. Stone, Staffordshire.
Ref. RG12 2854 34 25
In 1881 Julia Hilditch is listed as a servant in Stone, Staffordshire!
As already stated one should always be a bit sceptical about submitted entries and check things thoroughly - however, the birth date is more likely to be correct and ties is with the Stone birth entry in Sept.1876. I feel sure the date on the birth certificate will tie in with this submitted entry but think it will just state mother - Julia Hilditch.
In Sept.qtr 1883 at Stone, Staffs. Julia Hilditch married to either a John Vernon or William Morris. Couldn't find on 1891 Census so checked deaths and found:
Julia Morris bc.1856 d. Sept. qtr. 1888 Stone, Staffs.
Hopefully this helps.
Annette
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1881 reference RG11/2692/126/18. The couple he's boarding with are called Joseph and Susannah Bladon.
1891 reference RG12/2854/34/25, when he's with grandparents.
I'd looked at those but discounted them as like Fiona said the Harry who she found on IGI was apparently born in Crewe and they are not in the same area. Crewe is in Cheshire, Stone in Staffordshire and they are 25 miles apart.
Annette - The marriage and death you have found don't tie in with IGI (although that is probably a suspect entry) as on IGI it shows Harry's parents as John and Julie. From that you would think she married the John Vernon, not the William Morris that you found.
All this inconsistency is why no-one should trust submitted records on IGI.
Lizzie
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Thank you both for that information - I'll spend some time trying the two different scenarios and see if they fit.
I do agree that the marriage certificate is the key...do either of you now anyone that can do a lookup for that - is it on another area of rootschat that I would have to submit that request too?
I also agree with being somewhat suspect of submitted IGI records - of course contacting the submitter is a great idea to check sources of information. Which is what I am doing at present with this thread and only using the information as a guide.... thankfully for me, many submitted records have turned into excellent leads in my family search.
So again, thank you both for your help.
Fiona
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Hi Fiona
Unfortunately, no-one can look up a marriage certificate, you have to buy it. The website is www.gro.gov.uk and the certificate will cost you £7. You need the reference I quoted, that is Sept.1906 Birkenhead 8a 1111, then you wait a couple of weeks and the certificate should arrive.
When you start buying lots of birth, marriage and death certificates, you realise that this can be a very expensive hobby.
Lizzie
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Hello all again,
I finally got the marriage certificate for Harry and Ethel and it looks like the IGI record was correct. His father name is listed as John who was a wheel wright but deceased by 1906. Harry was 30 at the time so I doubt the 1901 census record would have him with parents and siblings. He is listed as an electrician ad living in "Whelock Heath"? near Baudbach and Ethel was at 13 South View, Bromborough Pool.
Thought I would let you know how it turned out...
Fiona
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OK. This is where we seem to be now.
1. Harry's father was John (at least that's what he told the registrar)
but does the marriage cert. give father's surname?
2. The IGI record states he was born 26.6.1876 in Crewe.
3. There are no birth registrations for a Harry Hilditch born in Crewe.
4. The IGI record shows his parents as John Hilditch and Julie.
5. The IGI record does not give his mother's surname, maiden or married.
6. On the 1881 census (born Stone) he's already boarding with a Bladon family.
7. On the 1891 census (born Stone) he's staying with Hilditch grandparents.
8. Julia Hilditch is an unmarried servant on the 1881 census
9. Annette gave you the following information:
In Sept.qtr 1883 at Stone, Staffs. Julia Hilditch married to either a John Vernon or William Morris. Couldn't find on 1891 Census so checked deaths and found:
Julia Morris bc.1856 d. Sept. qtr. 1888 Stone, Staffs.
I think to find out who his parents were, the only option is to buy a birth certificate. However, there are 3 to choose from, although the first might be the most probable as on the 1881 and 1891 census, Harry is shown as born in Stone.
Sept.1876 Stone 6b 31.
Sept.1874 Congleton 8a 308
Dec.1878 Stoke T (Stoke on Trent) 6b 230
Lizzie
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Hi Lizzie,
His marriage certificate does indeed give fathers name as John HILDITCH, which leads me to believe that the Julia Hilditch found on the 1881 census wouldn't be his mother, especially if this is her maiden name, as she is listed as single...she may be John's sister.
I agree that his birth certificate is the key but I first need to narrow down which of the three listed are him... although the Stone one is most probable due to ages on marriage cert and 1891 census. I'm not going to believe the IGI birth information yet until I find more proof to corroborate it.
I think that the 1891 census which Harry is listed with Hilditch grandparents could possibly be the parents of his father John, not Julia (unless she is John sister), as was first suggested. So maybe a look for a John Hilditch with those parents would be an idea - Harry is born c 1876, according to his marriage age, so John possibly born around 1846-1856. So if anyone has access to the 1851/61 census then a look for him would be appreciated
I couldn't find a marriage for John yet either, but I do know he was deceased by 1906 - Harry's marriage. I haven't been able to find that either as yet.
So where do we go from here...?
Fiona
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1851 census
Haslington,Cheshire
H0107 Piece 2169 Folio 200
George Hilditch,Head,27,Farm Lab,Barthomly? Cheshire
Ann Hilditch,Wife,23,Alsagar,Cheshire
John Hilditch,Son,3,Alsagar Cheshire
Thomas Hilditch,Son,8m,Haslington
This corresponds with the 1891 census found above when Harrys with his Grandparents.So they were Johns parents
Welsh Lady
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Have been following these recent posts and have done some checking re. John Hilditch bc.1848 Alsager.
By 1881 he is married to an Ann and living in Haslington, Cheshire with 3 children, none of whom is Harry. John is a Farmer (in 1901 still a farmer and still married to Ann).
1881 ref. - RG11 - 3544 - 83 - 6.
Hopefully you can get the correct birth certificate. Alas, the cynic in me still thinks this will show he is the son of just Julia Hilditch. His father may well have been named John, and a wheelwright, but I don't think he was a Hilditch. Can find no John Hilditch who is a wheelwright I'm afraid.
Annette
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Hi Annette,
If you can't believe a marriage certificate then what can you believe?! I understand your cynicism though - just need some more proof
I don't know where else to go with this one - don't know how else to narrow down the birth.
Fiona
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Hi Fiona
I'm afraid my cynicism is due to personal experience - have been researching for over 20 years and umpteen times have had certificates which state fathers name/profession when the reality was that they were born 'the wrong side of the blanket' - the one thing they all have in common is that the father is always shown as 'deceased'.
I feel that the certificate you need is the one born in Sept.qtr. 1876 Stone. That's what I would get anyway.
Will look forward to reading the outcome. Fingers crossed it's the right one.
Annette
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So do you think to be respectable, on his marriage certificate he made up the name/occupation etc...?
Just to cross off all doubt, is there a Julia Hilditch in 1861/71 census? with parents same name as 1891 census perhaps....
Fiona
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I do think details were 'made up' to try and put some respectability on themselves. In some way you can't blame them - they probably grew up with a stigma and now they could put it behind them.
Anyway, in 1871 Julia was working away from home as a servant but she was indeed a daughter of George and Ann as I suspected. Took me a little while to find them as the surname as been written as Hildiche.
1861 - Close Lane, Haslington, Cheshire
George Hildiche Head 39 Agricultural Labourer b. Berchton, Cheshire
Ann Hildiche Wife 33 Labourer's wife b. Alsager, Cheshire
John Hildiche Son 14 Labourer ditto
Mary Hildiche Dau. 9 Scholar b. Haslington, Cheshire
Henry Hildiche Son 7 ditto ditto
Julia Hildiche Dau. 5 ditto ditto
Margaret Hildiche Dau. 3 ditto
Samuel Hildiche Son 1 ditto
next door (maybe George's parents)
Ralph Hildiche Head 60 Agricultural Labour b. Haslington, Cheshire
Elizabeth Hildiche Wife 65 Labourer's wife b. Berchton, Cheshire
Ref. RG9 - 2617 - 33 - 8
Annette
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My g.grandmother was married before she met my g.grandfather. Her eldest daughter from her first marriage had an illegitimate daughter (E). (No-one can even find the birth registration). However, when E married, she gave her father as, believe it or not, John (and the surname) deceased. Her mother did marry later on, but E did not live with her, she lived with her grandmother and in any case, her mother's husband wasn't called John. Her grandfather and Uncle were both called John so maybe she just chose that name. In the same way, Harry may just have given his uncle's name to the registrar.
There are many Hilditch families in Cheshire and Staffordshire, so the other option is that Harry's father was a distant relative of Julia.
Lizzie
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Yes i agree i have lots of birth certs in my family who were illegitimate who then when married put a made up Fathers name down.John and Julia were brother and sister so Harry could have put the name down for respectability on his marriage cert if Julia was his Mother?
However you cant rule out anything yet until you send for the birth cert.
Good Luck
Welsh Lady
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Just found the Christening
Source-Ancestry England and Wales Christening Records 1530-1906
Harry Hilditch
Christ-16th July 1876 in Stone,Staffordshire
Mother-Julia Hilditch
Julia Hilditch
Christ-3rd Aug 1856 in Alsager,Cheshire
Father-George
Mother-Anne
Welsh Lady
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Well done Welsh Lady
Although I subscribe to ancestry the new parish records are not included in my subscription alas.
Too many things did not add up here and I just knew that he was a child of Julia Hilditch. Your discovery means that unless still wanted Fiona does not have to purchase the birth certificate.
Annette
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Well done - that seems to answer that question.... big fat fibbers! makes genealogy much harder than it already is! Well, I suppose that is part of the fun for all of us isn't it?
So, John may or may not be real - a distant are imaginative figure, Julia is real, as are her parents and siblings - so at least I know that now. As for who she ended up marrying, well, I might go with the original idea that it was William Morris that she married in 1883 due to the death info of 1888. Will now look to see if she had any children in between that time.
Thank you all for your help with this one - waste of money if they tell lies, thank goodness for other sources!
Fiona
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Annette,
You mentioned that in 1871 Julia was working away from home, could you please find her parents, George and Ann Hilditch to see if there was one more child born between 1860-1868?
Fiona
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Baptisms off same source as before
Alsagar Cheshire
Parents-George and Ann Hilditch
John-09th May 1847
Thomas-18th Aug 1850
Mary-09th May 1852
Henry-21st May1854
Julia-03rd Aug 1856
Margaret Annie-25th April 1858
Samuel-29th April 1860
Elizabeth-08th March 1863
Amelia-06th Nov 1864
Agnes Jane-03rd June 1866
Eliza-01st Dec 1867
Lucy Anna-05th Sept 1869
George-05th Nov 1871
Welsh Lady
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This looks like the marriage
Alsager was in the Barthomly Parish in the Hundred of Nantwich
Qtr Dec 1846 Nantwich,Cheshire
George Hilditch to either Ann Warburton or Ann Platt
Looks like Ann Warburton but youd need to confirm with marriage cert
Baptisms in Alsager
Possibles for George and Ann?
George Hilditch
21st July 1822
Father-John
Mother-Elizabeth
George Hilditch
22nd Feb 1824
Father-Samuel
Mother-Ann
Ann Warburton
30th March 1828
Father-Samuel
Mother-Margaret
Baptism in Sandbach(On some censuses his birthplace is down as Betchton and this was a township of Sandbach)
George Hilditch
02nd Sept 1821
Father-Samuel
Mother-Mary
Welsh Lady
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1841 census Alsager,Barthomly,Cheshire
HO107 Piece 116 Folio 10 Page 15
Samuel Warburton,40,Wheelwright
Margaret Warburton ,35
John Warburton ,15
James Warburton ,14
Ann Warburton,13
Elizabeth Warburton ,11
William Warburton ,9
Eliza Warburton,7
Thomas Warburton,6
Emily Warburton,4
Julia Warburton ,1
All born in the county remember adults ages are rounded down in 1841
George Hilditch is in the same area working on a Farm as an Ag lab age 20.
Sending for George and Anns marriage will confirm if these are the correct family it looks like it
Good Luck
Welsh Lady
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Annette was right on Julias marriage to William Morris
Ancestry Marriages
Stone,Staffordshire
18th July 1883
Julia Hilditch, Father-George Hilditch
William Morris,Father-Francis Morris
Thats all the info it gives
Welsh Lady
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Hello
I read with interest the question posted by Fionakennedyarnold on Monday 30/June/2008. As George Hilditch, father of Julia Hilditch was my Great Great Grandfather, I did some research myself and I found that a Julia Morris was on a Passenger List to Melbourne Australia in 1890. So I would like to know if the death of Julia in 1888 was confirmed. Also Harry and Ethel Hilditch had 2 girls when they left for Australia Nina and Edith and they had a son George in Australia
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Hi,
Glad to meet you.
My research of Julia Hilditch has basically been through rootschat and the assistance I have received through that forum. So not a lot has been confirmed in the England/Wales findings.
Whatever has been found her in Australia has pretty much been confirmed, so no her death in Staffordshire hasn't been with documentation.
Is there a reason for you to believe that Julia and her husband, William Morris arrived in Australia, especially Melbourne? Is there a William with her or any other children that might link that record to the Julia in Staffordshire? Not that I actually have any children listed for them at this stage.
I also have her son Harry's wife Ethel and children dying in Brisbane, any idea on dates for Harry? I haven't been able to locate it yet. I also id have those three children that you mentioned but no birthdate for Edith who married Mark Dobson. Do you also have Jane, Robert and May as their children too?
Fiona
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Hello Fiona
Since tracing my descendants back to my Great Great Great Great Great Great Grandfather John U Hilditch, I have now become interested in finding what happened to all the children of my forefathers and which other families they married into.
Back to Julia who was on the Passenger list for Melbourne 1890 her birth date was 1856, also on the Passenger list was a male Morris birth date 1847 which I think corresponds with William Morris's birth date. If you live in Australia could you check the arrivals to Melbourne in 1890. Also could you let me now if you are related to Harry Hilditch, wether Nina who married Percival John Webb had any children and if Harry and Ethel's son George married and had children.
Jart
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Hi Jart,
I'll look into the arrivals for Melbourne - may atke a bit at the moment due to Christmas, going away and moving states al within the next month... yes, my husband is descended from Harry Hildirch through his grandfather - who is one of the sons of Nina and Percival. It is him that we will be going to see over the holidays actually.
It would be easier for me to send you the paper work via a GEDcom file if you have access to a programme that would open it - if not, I use PAF 5 which can be downloaded for free from the LDS Familysearch website. You will need to send me your email address for me to send it through to you.
I can't yet find a spouse for George Stanley Hilditch as yet. Although we will be travelling through Rockhampton so I'll see what I can do about that.
Fiona
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Hi Fiona
I am sorry I haven't replied sooner.I have just been contacted by the Granddaughter of Julia Hilditch's sister Lucy H Hilditch, she has told me that she had found a death of Julia Morris at Stone Jul/Aug/Sept quarter aged 32 ref, 6b page 20.1888. Also she says in 1891 Julia's husband William is a Carpenter at Yarnfield. He is widowed and is living with his son William aged 7 a scholar, a daughter, Evelyn aged 4 and a son Arthur aged 2.
In 1901 William is a farmer at Yarnfield and is living with his daughter, Evelyn aged 14 and son Arthur aged 12. Arthur was born Sept. quarter 1888 and is registered at Stone ref, 6b page 34. This is the same time as Julia died.
Therefore did you find out if Julia & William Morris arrived in Melbourne in 1890, if not you might have some more ancestors Evelyn, William and Arthur.
Also did you find any more information on George and Harry.
Regards Jart
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Hiya,
I will have to say no to both those questions, I have taken a break from researching for the past six months - moved state, started work again etc etc....so haven't done anything with Hilditch family.
Fiona
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Hi Fiona
I have been looking again on the www.findmypast.com and have found an Arthur Morris also left for Melbourne Australia who's birth date was 1888 in 1913. Also could you give me any information with regards to your husbands relation to harry.
Thanks
Jart
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Fiona
you probably know this by now "Whelock Heath"? near Baudbach
But i think that should read Wheelock Heath, Sandbach.My great,great grandparents lived there and married in chester,before they moved on to Stafford with their gang of children ;D.No relation to you I might add.
Celia
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Hi Fiona
I am hoping you can help me please. I am looking for a Stanley George Hilditch born around the early 1940’s whom lived in Queensland around the 1970’s. His parents were George Stanley Hilditch & Hilda May Hilditch(née Leeton). And I think he is the grandson of Harry Hilditch whom married Ethal Griffiths. Thankyou