RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: kdc650 on Tuesday 01 July 08 11:41 BST (UK)
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Some of you know already that I'm working on a book for the RTFHS on Traveller musicians active before 1900. I've cast my net far and wide, and isolated 265 individuals so far, mainly fiddle players. The sources which are more of a problem are the certificates of birth, marriage and death, which are too costly to be speculative about. I was wondering if any of you have information from either this type of source, or family tradition, or any other less accessible source. I would be so pleased to learn anything further. And, of course, I will be happy to share my own research if you contact me offlist.
Many thanks in advance.
Keith
Here is a brief listing of those found so far :
BLACK Amos alias BLACKMAN / Morris
BOSS Charles / Newton aka Newcombe / Robert
BOSWELL Aaron / Andrew / Bruce / Byron / Charles alias BOSS / Edward / Edward Mackenzie / Elias / Elias ('Lias') / Frampton / Frederick ('King of the Manx Gypsies') / George / Hezekiah / Hope / Isaiah / John / John / Joseph / Lawrence / Lawrence / Levi / Lewis / Mackenzie ('Kenza') alias James SMALL/ Major / Mordecai alias WAINWRIGHT / Moses alias BOSS / Moses / Nelson / O'Connor aka Fergus Occona / Oscar ('Womanly') / Peter / Plato aka William / Riley / Samuel / Seth / Silvester ('Wester', 'Westrous') / Theophilus / Thomas / Trafalgar / Uriah / Zachariah aka John
BOWERS Henry
BUCKLAND Abraham / Absalom ('Stinker') / Edward ('Winggi') / Henry G. / Henry / Henry James / John Shipton / Moses / Nelson / Noah / Owen / Plato / Tenant / Thomas aka John / William / William / William Emanuel
BURCHALL James / James
CLEMENTS James
DAVIS Albert alias Thomas DAVIES / Frederick / Mark Henry / Thomas alias DAVIES
DOE Albert
DRAPER Ambrose / Edward / Edward / Elias / Israel / James alias CLARK / Joseph / Samuel
EYRES James
GAGE Walter Joseph
GRAY Adolphus / Alfred / Charles / Frederick / George / George / George / Henry / Israel / John Budd / John / Joshua / Louis / Obediah / Oseri / Oseri / Oseri aka Eckley / Piramus / Samuel / Sunny / Thomas aka William Joshua / Thomas alias Ambrose DRAPER alias Thomas SMITH / Yoben
GREEN Frederick / George / Henry / Mackenzie ('Kenza') alias SMALLWOOD / Matthew / Samuel / William
HARRIS William ('Billy')
HERNE Evergreen / John / Nukes ('Crimea') / William
HOLLOWAY John / Thomas / Thomas
JAMES Ancian
JOHNS William OR Solomon
LEE Adam / Charles / Ethal aka John alias WOOD / Eugene Walter / Felix Alfred / Henry / John / Joseph / Major / Oliver Alfred alias WOOD / Silvester aka Wester / Thomas / Valentine V. / Walter / Zachariah / Zachariah / Zachariah
LEWIS Louis / Siterus aka John / Thomas
LOCK Bert / Enoch ('Winkles') / Ezekial / Ezekial / John / Herbert / Isaiah aka James ('Pollen') / Leonard Buzzi / Noah alias BOSWELL / Noah aka Manoah alias BOSWELL / Somerset Joseph / Vivian Delmore aka Charles / Zachariah alias Henry ('Harry') BOSWELL / Zebulon James
LOVELL Arthur / Charles ('Wry-necked Charley') / Charles / Henry / Horatio Lamprey / John ('Concertina Johnny') / Walter Charles
LOVERIDGE Moses
MACE James ('Jem')
MARTIN Henry
McLEAN Charles / James
MIDDLETON Alfred James / Edwin / James
PERRY Peter
RAINBOW John
REDMAN Mitchel Robert
ROBINSON Elias ('Lias') / Eros / John
ROGERS Thomas
SCARROTT Charles / James
SHAW Aaron ('Funny Aaron Jeks') / Arthur / Arthur / Arthur ('Rinky') / Charles / James / James ('Big Jim') / James / John ('Little Jack') / John ('Ne'er do well') / Larry / Larry / Moses / Moses / Noah / Rodney aka William / Tiger ('Fiddling') / Tobias / Walter / William / William ('Willie')
SMITH Abey / Abslolm / Albert Edward / Betsey / Cain / Charles / Charles / Charles Simpson / Cornelius alias SHAW / Elijah / Henry / Henry / Henry Robert / Hercules ('Old Arti') / Hercules aka Arkless / Isaac / Israel / James ('Jemmy') / James / James / James H. / Jasper / Job / Job / John / John / John / John / John / John Francis / Jonas / Josiah / Josiah aka John / Levi / Nelson / Neptune / Perrin / Riley / Sampson / Shandres / Stephen / Thomas ('Fiddling Tom') / Thomas / Thomas / Thomas / Tobias / Walter Herbert / William ('Black Willy') / William / William / Wisdom
TAYLOR Obediah D. alias DIAPER
TOWNSEND Lawrence
WELCH Moses / William
WILLIAMS Henry/Thomas / William ('Fiddling Billy')
WOOD Abraham aka Abram
YARDLEY William
YOUNG Esau / John aka Auther alias Oli HERNE
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Sorry, I don't personally, but it's sounds like a really interesting project.
Wish you every success.
At least it now back on the top of the list again : ;)
Paulene :)
Will let you know if I come across any others on my travels.
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Hi Keith
Do you want information on people who were travelling solo musicians, or those who played in groups?
I have an ancestor who was on a Census as a musician (in lodgings) in 1881 & was with a "Wild West Show" as a musician in 1891. I've no idea what instrument he may have played, or when he died. Let me know if you would like details
Steve
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Hi,
I have an ancestor who is described as being a musican or "Professor of the Violin" on various census. There is also evidence of boxing running through the family and I have often wondered if they were Romany. 2 children disappeared from records as did their mother (one I think was sent to Australia for theft), although she possibly was moved from parish to parish.
They were Swifts. Do let me know if you want anymore details.
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Burto,
If the Swift family were in Nottingham there might be a record of her settlement certificate in the index at the archives office.
If you're really lucky there might be a settlement examination which will detail where the family came from and moved to. It's all indexed by surname and they'll let you know if the names are in the index, if you email.
Paulene :)
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Hi Willow,
Do you know what dates these certificates started from? My ancestor was living in a house in Nottingham in 1841, so not sure if that means he was of Romany descent? Are these certificates exclusive to travellers or to anyone who was moved around?
Thanks.
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Hi Burto,
They applied to everyone.
Here is a little explanation I found:
http://www.doncaster.gov.uk/Leisure_in_Doncaster/Libraries/Archives_Local_Studies/family_local_history/Settlement_Certificates.asp
Nottingham archives have the following:
Poor Law Records (City and County) (Cards)
• Settlement Certificates and Examinations c1690-c1850
• Removal Orders 1715-1866
Issued to people without a valid settlement certificate.
• Maintenance Orders 1715-1866
Issued to the reputed father of an illegitimate child.
Hope this helps + good luck, Burto.
Paulene :)
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Hi kdc650,
Sorry - back to the point.
Found these on the 1881 census:
*all described as travelling musicians:
Henry Wombwell b. 1809 Worksop, Notts
Frederick Wombwell b. 1852 Hull
Frank Carle b. 1862 Lanarkshire, Scotland
Chas J Dillon (Charles Joseph) b.1850 London, Middlesex
L A A Livermore B. 1854 London, Middlesex
George Wileman B. 1932 Leicestershire
Charles L Tapson b. 1850 Liverpool, Lancashire
Samuel L Hall b. 1839 Petton (?)
Paulene :)
Do you need more, or are you concentrarting on tracking down more information on the ones you have?
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I have a harp playing ancestor who travelled the country with his wife & children between 1860-1888 when he died.His background was Woolcombing{brother & father Woolcombers from Leicestershire,who then moved to Bradford,west yorks around 1830's.}and I wondered if you could enlighten me on how & why he would have taken up harping & singing as an occupation?
1851 census-woolcomber, Bradford.
1861census he was in Norwich with a group of musicians.
1863 married in Edinburgh
1863 child born Glasgow
1865 " " Liverpool
1868 " " Castle Donington
1871 census Middlesbrough
1871 Child born Cardiff
1874 " " Middlesbrough
1878 " " "
1880 " " Leeds
1881 census Middlesbrough
1888 died in Union Workhouse Middlesbrough.
One of his sons continued in the harp playing but by the 1901 census was working in the Jarrow Shipyards as a riveter,which must have been more lucrative when he married and had a family.
Just wondered if you would have any info. on such people as above -even tho' they wern't "travellers or gypsies".
Good Luck with your book. 8)
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Hi kdc650,
I'm new to this website, and just saw your message. I have two relatives on your list of Travelling Musicians - Walter Joseph Gage and his father-in-law Elias Draper. I know quite a lot about them, not sure if that's what you're after.
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Hi Pollyb
I have a lot on Elias Draper and the Gages too, as I collect all references to Gypsy/fairground Drapers.
So I'd be very interested to hear what you have on them - and pleased to share all my info too.
Sharon
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Hi Sharon,
I'm really new at the Rootschat thing so not quite sure how it all works yet. I'd be happy to share my info with you, which is limited to my family tree research and family stories, but I am directly descended from Elias Draper and Walter Gage so may have something of interest to you.
Pollyb
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I am directly related to :
Henry Boswell
&
Israel Smith
But i dont know if i can be much help.
I do however have some family members who did play instruments in Wolverhampton. The hodgkiss tribe, they was Musician Street Pianists, and Barrell Organ players.
But you don't seem to have the hodgkiss's listed, so im not sure if i can be help there either....
All the best,
Gary
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Hi There to you all and in particular, the person with the name SWIFT in their family tree. They are most certainly Romany and thought you may like the entries that I have in my research into Gypsy Families in UK. I am researching Gypsy Convicts who were transported to Australia and If you could send me the details of your convict I would apprecite it. Robert Dawson, in his book Ä Romany In The Family (ISBN 1-903418-27-5) states that the Swift family were in the UK at least from 1608-1866 (int) at DBY, GLS, MON, NTH, SOM, SRY & WAR. I have them in Surrey in 1907. My entries are as follows,
SWIFT Dorothy May born 25.7.1906 daughter of Joseph and Alice Mary (Hawker) Ash, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
SWIFT Olive Daisy born 26.10.1907 daughter of Joseph and Alice Mary (Hawker) Ash, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through)
SWIFT Thomas born 18.11.1860 son of Joseph and Hannah Travelling (Hawker) Ash, Surrey (Gypsies Passing Through) . Hope it helps- Roser
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Hi Steve!
A few members of the Flexney family were musicians.
(The children of Edward and Mary Flexney.)
Edward (1825) played,and his son,Edward (1849) was a 'professor of music'.
Charles(Richard) played,and John played too.
Daniel Flexney,I don't think, played an instrument,but his grandaughter, Nelly Searle,my grandmother, was an Assosiate Member of the Victoria College of Music,London,when she was 14.
Regards,
Neil (Mills)
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Hi,
I have an ancestor who is described as being a musican or "Professor of the Violin" on various census. There is also evidence of boxing running through the family and I have often wondered if they were Romany. 2 children disappeared from records as did their mother (one I think was sent to Australia for theft), although she possibly was moved from parish to parish.
They were Swifts. Do let me know if you want anymore details.
I would like the Info on the family member who was sent to Australia, if that's okay- Romany Roser
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Thanks to everyone who has responded to my plea. I apologise for not having replied sooner. Various distractions, including family deaths and serious illnesses, and not the least of which was a small stroke I had last year. But I will now slowly work my way through all these interesting replies, hoping I remain in good standing. As ever, I am always willing to share my own material with all who ask.
More soon,
Keith C
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Sorry to hear you not been well Keith. Get well soon hunny x
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Once again, many thanks to all who have responded so far with further information and well wishes. I will now try and answer all the backlogged questions. I need to add now that in addition to the volume on specifically Romany or pas rat musicians, all others born in England or Wales found so far who don't fit into that category have gone into a separate database, which I intend to make available via the Village Music Project website. Musicians born outside of England and Wales were legion during the 19th century (especially Germans working in travelling bands), but fall outside of my current research.
In one sense practically all musicians active before 1900 were travellers, in that they 'travelled' to the performance venues, even when these were close to home. That said, many non-Romany/pas rat players were often on the road far from home. I hope that by creating chronologies for each, which will include all material discovered - biographical (from the usual genealogical sources and even the oral tradition where available), newspaper and manuscript sources, and so on - to be able to show the variety of performance activity. At the very least, establishing dates of birth and death will at least indicate the timeframe each musician could have been active. From this preamble I hope it has become obvious that I have an interest in everyone named as musician born before 1900. Some will (and have) eventually proven to be of a higher social standing than the grass roots players which interest me most, but there are no hard and fast rules. I'm thinking of the source which tells of the twelve men employed to attend upon services twice a day in Salisbury Cathedral during the mid-19th century. Because of insufficient wages, they were forced to find work outside of that regular job : one played fiddle in dancing booths, another played and sang in glee clubs. Even those who played in church bands across Britain would often double as suppliers of music to country dancing (Thomas Hardy's work, of course, but there is much other evidence).
Thanks for staying with me so far. On then to specific responses.
Steve (Reply #2) - I'm certainly interested in details of your 'Wild West Show' ancestor. Travelling shows of all kinds usually had some form of music attached, even if it was just the proprietor blowing a horn and banging a gong. Most larger shows hired small bands of musicians for the season, sometimes family members.
Burto (#3) - Your Swifts sound very interesting. Please tell us more. Once I can outline their life history we might be able to tell if there is a specific Romany connection.
Paulene (#7) - Many thanks for those musicians listed, some of which were now to me. Please tell me of any more that cross your path. Eventually I hope to create biographies for all players.
Lollyross (#8) - Very interesting to hear of your travelling harp-playing ancestor, and would love to learn his name. The harp turns out to have been much more common an instrument used in bands which played for country dancing, even among Romanies, than we first thought. And these were often full sized harps. Goodness knows how some of them overcame the problem of carrying the thing around. In addition to playing in combination with fiddles, trumpets, and so on, I have one early reference to a harpist as sole musician to a set of country dancers.
Pollyb (#9) - I will contact you via a personal message, as Elias Draper and Walter Gage are of especial significance to my Romany book.
Gary (#12) - Again, I will contact you personally, as I can send both you and Pollyb the grids I have already created for your direct ancestors in a form not reproduceable here. But the Hodgkiss family from Wolverhampton are also of great interest.
Neil (#14) - I only have John Flexney gridded so far, though I find his brothers Richard and Frederick as musicians in various censuses and they are high on my 'to do' list. John's birth was registered in Witney, OXF (three miles from where I live) in 1840; trail ends at the 1881 census. I would love to learn what happened to him. Are the two men named Edward on your list related to the other men? Interesting also to hear of your grandmother's musical accomplishments. Was she a violin player? Any idea what instruments the earlier musicians would have played?
Once again, I apologise to all for the delay in replying. Now that I am 'on the mend' I will be sure to monitor this list more often. I hope others will continue to share their finds, family stories, etc. And, once again, I am always willing to share anything I have. You just have to ask.
My very best wishes to all.
Keith
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Hi Keith,
Glad to hear you're back on the case!
I'll reply more fully to you in a PM later this week re the Flexney family - my ancestor (John) & Neils (#14) were brothers - they can be found in 1851 Census travelleing together as musicians. Edward, the eldest brother played the trumpet I think - he moved to Lancashire & taught (I think) at the RNCM. His son, Edward was a violinist with the Halle.
I've no idea what John played - as far as I know none of his descendants were very musical - he was with the "Wild West Show" in Wiltshire in 1891 & then disappears
Best wishes
Steve
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I found this thought might interest you kdc650 :
Quote :
Tommy Lewis was a gypsy fiddle player who often, at least in later life, camped at nearby Standlake; as is often the case with travellers, I have been unable to trace any details of his birth or death. He is, however, also recorded as playing for the Abingdon (Berkshire) Morris Dancers, just prior to the First World War. Edward 'Deedlum' Butler, so nicknamed for his habit of 'diddling' the tune while playing (as did William Wells at a later date), was born in Burford about 1813, and later lived at Asthall, where his son Richard was born in 1854. The older Butler had a dancing booth which he used to take round and erect at fairs as far away as Blackwell in Warwickshire. There was no charge for admission but a man paid a small sum (perhaps a penny) for each dance in which he and a partner joined.
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/bampton.htm
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Thanks for that Tiggi. I wrote that article, but please continue to draw my attention to anything that looks interesting.
Keith (Chandler)
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Lol sorry Keith I should have checked who wrote it :-[
I must admit I found it really interesting :)
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Glad you found the article interesting, Tiggi. I wrote it in 1992. Seventeen years on I know so much about Tommy Lewis that he forms a separate chapter in my forthcoming book!
My very best wishes,
Keith
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Hi
I'm related to Horatio Lamprey Lovell and his son William Horatio Lovell who was also a musician (harp). I don't have any personal stories to pass on, but I do have certificates & census returns which state that they were musicians.
I would be happy to pass on the information via private message . Please let me know what you require and of course if you have any info to share.
Best wishes
S
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When I was looking in the 1881 Cencus for Bollington I decided to do a "next household" walk around looking for my Nanas Aunt.
It would seem that there was an acting troupe or a group of Musicians lodging throughout the village at various households.
I'll try & look for names next time I am in there.
Gaille
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Thanks to S and Gaille for the responses. Look forward to details of the musicians in Bollington.
Keith
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Hi,
Found this one only today:
James Bishop, Retired Musician, Father in Law. Aged 77 born Trowbridge Wilts.
He was in a Caravan in St Andrews Plymouth in 1871 RG10/2120/108/51
Sorry I can't read the name of the family he was living with.
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A very nice find, and many thanks for bringing it to my attention. There are a bunch of interesting familes living in the vicinity, and I'm wondering if it was the occasion of a fair. In tracing him backwards I couldn't find him in 1841, but hit upon a fascinating location, namely the Middlesex Pauper Lunatic Asylum at Hayes, which included one street musician and a number of hawkers.
My best to all,
Keith
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And another one:
James Carr aged 22 Visitor, musician. Living in a caravan in Pruhoe, Northumberland. He was born in Yorkshire.
RG10/5143/66/48
Hope he is as interesting as the last one I found (beginners luck!)
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Thanks to S and Gaille for the responses. Look forward to details of the musicians in Bollington.
Keith
I had a flick thru again last night - I have a few names for you, not finished yet tho.
LOL just wish I could find MY Catherine Mc'Cree while I am looking!!!!
Gaille
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And some more (well sort of)
Kezia Saunders, Musicians wife aged 46 born in Notts
and her kids : Mezzino Son aged 14,
Wallice Son 12
Lonser Son 4
No sign of the musician himself.
All living in a Caravan, Leicester St Margarets. RG10/3272/43/13
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Hello All
I’ve just joined and I have come across many travelling musicians as I am tracing my family which originally came from Italy.
From my own tree the original ancestor from Italy was a musician on the birth cert of his son born 1844 in Pembroke and again with another son in 1852 in Carmarthen, both places of course in Wales. He had two more children one born in 1842 in Conway North Wales and another child in Haverfordwest so he definitely was travelling around.
When searching for members of my family I have come across single and groups of travelling musicians from Italy in the early census returns of 1841 and 1851 in all parts of the UK.
I have often wondered whether they were travelling fairs, circus, or theatres?
Steven
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Name: Edward Draper
Age: 19
Date of Offence: 25th October 1865
Offence: Assaulting one James Randall and violently stealing from his person one purse, one handkerchief and 18 shillings and sixpence in money, at Luton on the 17th Oct. 1864.
Sentence: 9 Calendar Months Hard Labour
Type of trial: Bedfordshire Quarter Sessions
Personal details
Height: 5 ft 8 ¾ inches Hair colour: Dark
Eye colour: Dark
Visage: Oval Complexion:
Sallow Identifying marks: Scars on each knee, mole left side of nose, the gypsy cast of features.
Trade or occupation: Gypsy fiddler
Education: Neither
Marriage status: Single
Number of children: Unknown Religion: None
Residence details
Birth town: Wheathampstead Birth country: England Residence parish: no fixed place
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Hi,
I'm researching one of my past lives as the daughter of musicians in the 1800's. I have the place, at least for a period of time, narrowed down to County Cork, Ireland, and although I have no specific information that we were Travellers, it seems quite likely, and I would like to look into this a little further. Do you have any information on Traveller musicians in County Cork in the 1800's?
Thank you,
Barbara
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Have you any names or further details Barbara?
Keith
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Many thanks to all who have taken the trouble to reply to my questions over the past couple of months. Edward Draper was the son of Samuel Draper, who features heavily in my research, since in addition to being a peripatetic fiddle player he maintained a dancing booth at fairs and feasts. Italian musicians were frequently to be seen on the streets of towns during the nineteenth century, often playing the hurdy gurdy. No doubt some WERE employed in circuses or tent show of various kinds. Thanks too for details of the caravan dwelling Saunders family.
I will be very pleased to hear of anything relevant on the subject at any time. Good ancestor hunting to all.
Keith
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Keith,
No, the only other details I have so far is that I may possibly have been involved with a married man, or have been suspected of it... there was definitely a jealous wife involved, and I may possibly have killed him. That part is still pretty vague, but if I knew of any Traveller musicians in County Cork during the 1800's I'm hoping I could do some research, see some photos, find out what instruments they played and anything else that might spark a memory. I know it's not much to go on, but that's the nature of this kind of research. Thanks for getting back to me so quickly! :)
Barbara
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My gt grand father was Frederick William Lovely Towhey (1852) a blind travelling musician.
Married Ellen Pattingale Birmingham 1879, she also was and itinerant musician.
I have never been able to trace back further than Frederick.
On the 1881 census the family are living in Brighton and Frederick states he was born in Dublin. Listed as Itinerant Musicians.
On the 1891 census living in Liverpool he states we was born in Woolwick Kent but it's definitely the same family.
On the 1901 census states born Woolwich, living in Manchester as a dealer in musical instruments.
1911 census Ardwick Manchester states the same.
Frederick died in Lambeth 1928.
Ellen Pattigale was born 1862 Selby York.
Ellen died in Camberwell London.
There were 7 children from the marriage but only 2 survived.
My grandmother born 1883 was the only child to carry the Lovely name but it's listed as Loval on her birth cert not Lovely.
On Fredericks wedding cert he states his father's name is James Towhey a Station Master.
Happy to provide you with documents I have, I do have some photo's but none with musical instruments.
I'm also tracing the other side of my family Irish Traveling Musician and Showmen, Brennan's and McCormick's.
Regards Jackie
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Hiya Keith and everyone else,
im a bit late and i dont have much to share except that im a descendant of Hercules smith, grandson of the gypsy fiddler, unfortunately i only have certificates of his daughter Mezelle (birth, marriage, death) if they are any use?
Also for the gent looking for convicts i have another traveller Isaac Sherrif (hercules father in law) who was sentenced to death for murder, then reduced to transportation then i think he ended doing his sentence in england! He can also be found living back with his daughter in old age! I have newspaper clippings detailing trials and a description of him on the boat if its any use?
Finally if anyone is related to these families or has any info i would love to hear it please
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I had family in Bradford 1850 to 1900 my great grand parents Dominic Tassari
Rossa Tassari and Daughter Mary,I think they were also known as Yazza,they lived
in Paper Hall Court in Bradford .
They were all musicians.Any info anyone.
PG.
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Hi There,
I am a McCormick, Gt Grandson of Frederick McCormick listed in 1901 census. Can you tell me more about your McCormick ancestry.
Regards
Barry
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Hi Keith
I am a direct descendant of Adolphus Gray son of Oseri Gray who are both listed as musicians on adolphus's wedding certificate. I see that you have included them on your list. I remember seeing reference to Oseri in the JGLS a while ago and wondered if you had seen this. but
I did not study the journal in depth so any information you have I would love to hear about. Im particularly interested in going back further. I believe Oseri's parents were Ossory and Anna not sure buyond this.
Best wishes
Teresa
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Hi Barry, where your McCormicks the travelling circus folK?
Regards Jackie
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Still looking to find my Brennan's travelling musician's showmen.
Thomas Brennan born Ireland somewhere between 1870's and 1880's
Travelled thorought Ireland (Connaught Bazaar)
Thomas's father was also named Thomas and was the Steward on a large estate thought to have been near Kilkenny, possibly had a brother in the priesthood.
Last known address was in Raphoe Ireland 1930.
Close family connections to Enya and Moya Brennan (Clannad)
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Hi Keith
Just came across another musician for you
Railway Arches Ground, In Caravan
St Pauls Deptford London
RG12 494 105 10
James Miller 45 Musician b.Whitehaven Sunderland
Mary J Miller 40 wife b.Newcastle Upon Tyne
Mary J Miller 9 dtr b.Leeds Yorks
Hart(?) Miller 6 (transcribed as Kase on A***) b.Newcastle
Sarah Miller 4 b.Camberwell London
travelling with other Hawker travellers in caravans, including
Hamilton Forrest & Ann Cunningham.
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Once again I am in your debt, Ann.
In fact, I've already created a biography for James Miller, though he appears in my gaujo musicians database, as I was unable to find any specific Romany connections. Have a look at his biography at :
http://www.etma.org.uk/musiciandownload.html
the 1841-1850 PDF, under MILLER, James. A very interesting career, including playing in a Music Hall context.
Please continue to pass on anyone else who looks a likely candidate.
I very much appreciate it.
Keith
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Hi Keith, came across this post and really interested in the topic. Has the book been finished/printed? If so where might I get a copy. Many thanks
Lucy
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Thanks for your interest, Lucy. I continue to work on the book, but new sources are appearing almost daily. I must just knuckle down and do it. When available I will post a message here and elsewhere.
Regards to all, Keith
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Hi Jackie,
Back on after a break :-)
I see you have listed connections to McCormicks and Brennan's. My first cousins would also be related to the Brennans through my Aunt Edna (nee Bell) We have a group on Facebook "the scattering"
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Hi keith
Your family is on my family tree. Hercules smith brothers abasolm fido jasper smith my great.
They where all fiddlers. North Marsden. Thomas had his fiddle stolen in a pub if I remember a write up. Please contact if we have the same one.
steve
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Hi there,
Have just discovered that Hercules Smith was my 6th GGuncle. My family go down through Wisdom Smith, James Smith, Defiance Smith (who married Robbie Penfold) Eliza Penfold who married Henry Holland. Down the Holland line to me.
I'm fascinated to learn that some of the lads were Gypsy Fiddle Players. I'd love some more info as my Dad, Henry Holland, still alive at the the ripe old age of 93, has Dementia but is still very interested in our heritage,
Very many thanks
Ellalaine :)
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Hello my great great grandfather was Noah shaw he had a brother William (Willa boy) they where from London, they were fiddle makers and players, Noah Shaw appears in a stradivarius magazine, would love to find out more
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Hi
I am really interested in your research and wonder whether you have completed your book yet? I am a classical violinist and we thought there was no-one else in my family who had ever played, but I recently discovered that I have Romany Gypsy heritage so maybe it is in the genes after all. I would love to purchase a copy of your book. Where would I find it?
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While researching my own family background in the parish registers for St Cadfan's Chyrch, Tywyn (Towyn) Merionethshire I came across the following consecutive entries for baptisms in 1817:
April 16 Edward Woods son of Thos. Wood and Silvina Wood. Place of abode Parish of Dolbenmaen Father's occupation Fidler
April 16 Jeremiah Woods son of Jeremiah Wood and Anne Wood Place of abode Parish of Penmorfa Father's occupation Harper
All spelling is as it in the register including the disparities between surnames of sons and fathers. Interestingly, most of the other entries in this period record the mother's maiden name.
Dolbenmaen and Penmorfa are both located near to each other in Caernarfonshire.
The patriarch of the family, Abram Wood (named in the original post), is buried in the churchyard of Llangelynnin which is a few miles from Tywyn. He is known in Wales as the king of the gypsies. The Woods were such a large family that a common expression in Wales to describe a large family is that they are "fel teulu Abram Wood" (like Abram Wood's family).
Hope this is helpful.
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Hello to everyone who responded to my initial query all those years ago. Health and other matters forced me to temporarily abandon my research on Gypsy musicians, but I have just reactivated the project. And, now as then, I would be very grateful to learn of any known musicians active before 1900. My list of known musicians has now reached 319 players. Health and happiness to all.