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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: PabloC on Tuesday 01 July 08 20:49 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Was wondering if anyone might be able to put a name to the pub in background of the attached photo?
I'm fairly certain that it was taken in Liverpool, possibly 1920's or 30's. The street plate on the side of the pub appears to read '------ Place'.
I myself think it might be within the Everton area of the city, as that's where the line from which the photo came lived.
Any ideas?
Thanks
Paul
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Hi Paul I'm a bit confused here.
Do you know the name of the large building in front? It looks like a pub and Threlfalls as the name of the brewers.
DSo it's the building on the left behind?
I've got a book with loads of old streets in. I'll have a look, but whether I could recognise the back ground one?
I'll try.
Emms
Ah, am I being slow? You mean the big building but it's actually bhind the man?
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Hi Paul
Try this website, could be an old photo on there.
http://inacityliving.piczo.com/?g=41057337&cr=7
Cheers
Erika :)
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Paul,
Is it possible to post a higher-quality crop of the street sign?
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Aha ....I think it could be Gordon Place !
That would make it Mossley Hill - off Bridge Road and close to the station.
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Just checked 1914 Gore's and there doesn't appear to be a pub on the corner of Gordon Place and Bridge Road :(
Cheers
Erika :)
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I can't find anything in the directories either.
The lamp may be significant. There is writing on the glass. Something like "W&S (?) something and something Ales"
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Hi
Yes
I was going to say about the writing on the lamp' There are a few words.
If anyone came on line who knew about pubs, this might be a standard pub gign. There are about six lines of writing and I think one of them has two words in.
I wondered about Gordon Place, too, or Seddon Place. "on" looks good for the ending.
The shop behind looks loike a grocert's. The writing on one sign says tea.
I glanced at the book but didn't have yoour photo with me so I'll have another look.
Best wishes
Emms
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Copy removed. Aren't compiters infuriating?
It wouldn't post, so |I went back and did it again to find my post on twice!
Emms
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Is it possible to pm a larger resolution view, so we can look at the wwriting and other bits Paul?
Best wishes
Emms
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http://www.breweryhistory.com/Defunct/Merseyside.htm
anything on here??
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Hi
I'm looking at this.
There are some addresses for Threlfall Bubs but I don't know Liverpool well enough.
Maybe one of you can tease something out.
Best wishes
Emms
http://www.breweryhistory.com/Defunct/Merseyside.htm
(Brewery Histoery Society)
Snap! Great minds think alike Hepburn! Emms
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/exacta2a/
or this?
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Have you any idea wher Seddon Place maybe, can't find it listed in Gores 1914, but if you knew what the main road could be?
Maybe the photo sould be posted on the restoration forum and we may get somewhere. Nice to have something todo whilst waiting for Wimbledon to start!!! ;D ;D ;D
Cheers
Erika :)
PS Have looked at that website too Emms, but couldn't see anything
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Hi
Could it be Hudson Place?
I don't know there is a Seddon Place, but those werte the first two things that fit the letters.
I just got my magnifying glass out though, and washed it specially! It looks like Huson, but I don't really know Liverpool.
Emms
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The "Excelsior" looks a bit like it...
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The "Excelsior" looks a bit like it...
The Excelsior has 5 columns of windows each side. The pub in the picture is a different shape - it has 6 windows on one side and only 3 on the side facing us ( and note the Window Tax avoidance work).
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Where did the picture come from Paul ? is that gentleman one of your relatives ??
You said you only thought it was Liverpool .... where else could it be ??
You might try Scottie Press .... or heres another site to try .....
http://www.merseypub.com/
Annie :)
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The Excelsior which was in Troughton St also wasn't on a corner >:(
Just had a look through all the pubs in 1914 and nothing on the corner of ????? Place.
Mind you, maybe they only included a side road if there was an entrance to the pub on it. Seems all the pubs in Liverpool were on a corner ;D
Mysteries I love 'em!!
Cheers
Erika :)
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I think we need Paul to come back on line and post a better resolution scan of the road sign and lamp.
I have loaded it into my photo manipulation package, but there is just not quite enough detail.
Rog
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It looks like it was a corner pub,also I can't see how many windows from this picture..
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That one is the Excelsior on the corner of Dale Street and Johnson Street. As you can see from that picture, above the ground level there are 5 columns of windows of equal size on each side - so it's basically a square building. The one we are looking for is rectangular.
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Hi,
Wow, this thread seems to have generated some interest since last night!!! :)
Right....here goes with the answers to the questions that have been asked.
1.) I said 'thought it might be Liverpool' purely because I haven't as yet 100% identified the subject of the photo. I'm almost certain it's Liverpool though. Can't think of anywhere else it would be. In any case, from the limited reading I've done, Threlfall's Brewery were based in Liverpool and Salford only.
2.) Although the photo is small, and the man can't be seen in much detail, from his stance, and general size, it would appear to be my Great Grandfather. I obtained the photo from his daughter, my mum's aunty, although she didn't identify him.
3.) Interestingly, someone mentioned 'Hudson Place'. Now.....whilst I hadn't said so, I was of the opinion that it might be 'Hodson Place'. If so, this would place the pub in question in Everton, on the corner of Hodson Place and Margaret Street. If this is the case, then I belive that it's still standing...it can be seen from West Derby Road if you look over to the right of the Water Tower in Everton.
4.) I will try to post a higher resolution picture this evening.
Many thanks for the assistance everyone!
Paul
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No pub on the corner of Margaret St and Hodson Place unfortunately :(
Hopefully if you can enhance the photo we may sort this out.
Cheers
Erika :)
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The other end of Hodson Place is on Everton Road... with a pub on the corner called "The Clock" ( per my 1911 Directory - the proprietor at that time was John Longshaw)
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Sarah St also borders Hodson Place and there is a pub called The Dolphin.
Got to be one of those two.
Cheers
Erika :)
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Hi
I think with the magnifying glass it could just as easy be Hodson.
Also, this afternoon, I've seen a pub called the Clock and pondered as it had the right structure and window arrangement apart from one major thing. Might be the door had moved or similar, and a complete different look. That's surface, though.
It might be the one that said it was acoffeee shop now.
Only thin ng is, was it your site, or my book? Here goes!
Emms
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Wonder if it could be one of these ?? :-\
In the 60s Cazneau Street ran straight up from St. Anne street, across Juvenal Street and up to Scottie and there was a pub called the Clock on the corner of Juvey and one on the corner of Horatio Street next to Lawrence Gardens
http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4848&page=2
http://www.carling.com/beerfinder/venue_details/10784/liverpool/The%20Clock
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Hi...
Computer keeps crashing..so very quickly...!!! :'(
1.) Street name is definately 'Hodson Place'. Found powerful magnifying glass. Can see it quite clearly.
2.) Thanks to big magnifying glass, now not even sure who the bloke is, as he appears to have a moustache, which my great grandfather did not have.
Still.....who cares.....I'm intrigued to find out which pub this now anyway!!!! :)
Paul
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Just compared photo with that of the Clock.
Two different pubs as far as I can see..... :)
Paul
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Paul.... where did you find a photo of The Clock in Everton Road?
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There are about seven "Clock"'s on this page but I don't know how close they are to where you want to be.
Emms
http://www.merseypub.com/script/report.php
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Hi Shaun,
I was comparing it to the Clock as featured in the link provided by Liverpool Annie, here:
http://www.carling.com/beerfinder/venue_details/10784/liverpool/The%20Clock
...but just realised this is the Clock on Walton Road, Anfield, not Everton.
Shame I can't scan the photo in again at the moment although it most clearly is Hodson Place. Shame I've not got the Everton area on the Godfrey Edition maps yet!
Paul
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Here's a 1930's map
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Hi Shaun
That's a brilliant map. We have to have one -or two streets behind the pub and parallel to Hodson Place, with the grocer on the end of the first one and the little houses we can see the back of look like a little street that is squashed between Hodson Place and the streeet with the grocer on the corner.
Hodson Street and Everton Road with de Silva in between?
You're nearly there, Paul!
Best wishes
Emms
PS Of course we don't have an exact date so we don't know what else could have been knocked down or changed.
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Sorry
I think that should be Solva St when I look at my little map and that one.
I've actually found the section in my little book of old photo's. There's one of Solva Streetmand also Lloyd Street the one that backs on to Hodson Place the other wayy, but neither show the pub in the background. Lloyd Street is evidently subsiding.
If anyone would like a copy feel free to pm me. I don't think I'd darte post them. Which street did your family live in, Paul. There are nearly fifty photo's in this section alone. There may be one of your street at the time.
Best wishes
Emms
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Paul McCartney's father Jim MCartney lived at 3 Solva Street as a boy. He was born around the corner at 8 Fishguard Road in 1902.
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Can anyone find a picture of the Dolphin as that was on the corner of Sarah st and Hodson Place?
Cheers
Erika :)
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Hi
This is a map of the area in 1906 (I hope). Although Hodson Place goes off-map, you can see the two pubs. The one on Sarah Street end looks promising, but the one at the Everton Road end is on the wrong side of the street (I think).
John
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Great map John.
It does look like the Dolphin is the one doesn't it.
1. The orientation is right
2. It occupies the whole block on one side - just like the one in the photo
3. It's at the start of Sarah Street which would explain the other street sign partly hidden by the lamp.
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Some more corroboration for The Dolphin. There was a shop on the corner of Sarah Street and Lloyd Street which is the street that runs on the other side of the Dolphin from Hodson Place.
It was at 72 Lloyd Street. The proprietor was William John Davies in 1911.
In 1894 it was a dairy, proprietor Mrs Mary Hole.
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All we need now is a photo.
I checked the website I posted earlier inacityliving, but couldn't see one, mind you there are loads :-\
Keep on going
Cheers
Erika :)
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I found this .... memories ....... !! :D :D ( there is a Clock Hotel .... but we're looking for the Dolphin now ..... ) some other good old movies too !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ia1jJAgaQ
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In 1938 the Dolphin Hotel was run by a Mrs Delia Morris. I can see her in the phone books at that address ( 7 Sarah Street) up to 1947. Can anyone find a later reference to the Dolphin ?
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Dolphin was still there in 1955
Licensee George H Q Halewood.
Is it still standing?????? if not when was it demolished, surely there's a picture somewhere.
Cheers
Erika :)
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The Dolphin Hotel in Everton was situated at 7 Sarah Street between Aubrey St and LLoyd St.
The manager during the 60,s was John McConnell.
I have a photo but because of copyright issues will not be able post on the site will pm original posting about this photo.
Regards Margie.
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Hi Margie
Fantastic!
Does it look like the photo that Paul originally posted?
Cheers
Erika
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Can you tell us what publication it's in Margie?
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Found the photo in Freddy O Conner,s book:
A Pub on Every Corner Volume Four Scotland Rd, Everton and Anfield.
If anybody wants any look ups just let me know. Published 2001.
Will email the photo to anyone just p.m. me with your email address please put Dolphin in the subject matter.
Margie.
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Hi Margie
Thank you, I'll be pm'ing you.
The one I've got is Freddie O'Connor, "It all Came Tumbling Down". It has the two adjacent streets. There are a mixture, mostly housing taken just before the great clearances around the sixties in Liverpool. eg 47 photo's around Everton.
Again, if anyone wiuld like a look up pm me. It's better if you know the area as there's no index - I'll try anyway though. I'm thinking of doing an index.
Thank you again, Margie
Best wishes
Emms
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Thanks Margie for emailing the photo of the Dolphin Hotel. That is definitely the same pub, though the author has the location slightly wrong. It's between Hodson Place and Lloyd Street - the only pub on Sarah Street and clearly shown on John's map as between those two streets.
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Thanks Margie for the photo, definitely the one.
Hope Paul sees it.
It must have been demolished tho' as Sarah St doesn't exist anymore.
Cheers
Erika :)
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Hi Margie
Thank you for the photo. What a smashing building it is..
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi All :)
Cheers for the photo Margie. That is most definitely the same building, so there it is....mystery solved!
Not that I'm any the wiser as to whether it is my great grandfather in the photo! ???
Still, feel equally happy that a name has been able to be put to this pub...and that for those with an interest in old pubs of Liverpool, there is now an even older photo of it!
As stated earlier, Sarah Street no Longer exisits, the whole area now consists of housing.
Cheers!
Paul
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Hi folks
Glad you have solved the riddle of the pub.
It looked familer to me. it seemed very like the pub called the Clarence
On the corner of Spencer street and Everton road
Next road up from creswell street
I have not been able to get up there till tonight
I took a photo on my mobile phone
I wasgoing to post it on here But
This is a Vista computer and is not compatible with the mobile phone driver I have for my old XP
Anyhow the clarence(Im never sure if it was clarence or cleveland sorry)
Is very like the pub in the photo
Except it is only a two story building
But could have been put up by the same builders so looks so like the Dolphin
Never mind
All done now well done folks
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Just to add, my grandad was the licensee of The Clarence in 1914.
Cheers
Erika :)
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Definitely the Dolphin- the street sign says Hodson Place, that pub used to look quite posh when I lived there!!!! I lived in Solva St which was the next one along.
Janet Gerrard
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Hi,
Just to confirm once and for all...
Have been able to scan the photo using our work scanners...much more powerful. So, here's the street plate above the pub; clearly Hodson Place.
Furthermore, the man would now appear to be my Great, great grandfather, as opposed to Great grandfather, which ties in nicely, given that his daughter, my Great grandmother was living in Fishguard Street...just across the way from Hodson Place.
Paul
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Looks like a pub my ancestors may have had a few bevvies in. :)
Thanks to Shaun's map I can see three different streets my ancestors lived in and as my g.grandfather and his family lived in Hodson Place it's more than likely the pub was his local.
Jean
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Hiya guys!! :)
I'm new to this but does anyone have a pic of Hodson Street in this area as I've just found out my family lived in No. 6 in 1901 plus any old pics of LLoyd Street, Salisbury Street would be much appreciated!! :)
Many Thanks!!
Cal
X
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Hi all,
Eight years down the line and I have just stumbled across this thread! I have rellies who lived here too!
In the 1911 census Henry Pashby was the resident landlord at The Dolphin. His new family (Henry was on his second marriage, and his time to Florence Bellion) was certainly there by December 1910 as I know that their son, Leadlay Ernest Bellion Pashby, was born in a room above the pub. I have no idea how long they remained there - no access to the 1921 census as yet - but I know that Henry died aged sixty-three at 63 Clifton Road, Tuebrook, Liverpool in 1928.
In April of 1910 he had given his address as 36 Hamilton Road, Everton (on his marriage certificate) and prior to that he was recorded in the 1901 census as a Publican at 282 Great Howard Street, Liverpool although the name of the pub was not listed. Can anyone please help with that one?
And I'll be pm'ing Margie for a copy of the pub photo very, very soon!
MT ;)
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282 Great Howard Street was the "Railway Vaults" per 1894 Gore's Directory. It was on the corner of Denbigh Street.
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Brilliant, Shaun! Thanks very much!
Next question - any photos?
MT ;)
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The Railway Vaults must have been next to Sandhills Railway Station.
The pub seems to have closed before 1911.
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The Railway Vaults must have been closed by 1909 as it does not have an entry in the City of Liverpool Licensing Report Book for that year. [No pictures, just addresses, name, licensee etc.]
[For future queries, there is much more chance of there being a photograph of Tetley/Walker pubs in Liverpool, as they deposited many photos in the city's Archives. Few other companies did this.]
A
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What a brilliant thread and stupendous detective work! For a moment I thought this may have been the pub my great grandfather (William Japha) was a licensee at in the 1870's, The Royal Standard. However some of the earlier maps in the thread almost show the street the pub was on (3 & 5 Heyworth street, Everton). I was wondering if there might be the possibility of anyone identifying he spot of the pub (almost now certainly demolished) or ambitiously, a photo/image?
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The Royal Standard was on the first block of Heyworth Street, between Rupert Lane and Kepler Street. It had disappeared by the time of the 1891 census - all the numbers before 11 disappeared from directories around that time.
If you look at the map in reply#34, it would have been where the church is located at the top of Rupert Lane, to the left of the word "Cine". The church was St Benedict's. (The cinema next to it was the Everton Electric Palace.)
It looks like the pub and adjacent properties were demolished in the early 1880's to make way for St Benedict's church and associated schools.
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Liverpool/Everton/stbenedict/index.html
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Thank you so much Shaun, thats the finest piece of information I've had in ten years of fruitless searching for the pub (weird, its quite cathartic knowing it no longer exists) and just being aware of the 'place' is strangely reassuring. (Every place associated with William Japha in Liverpool no longer exists, not even his grave!).
Although there seems to be a pub on the street and vicinity you describe called 'May Duncans', but this looks more recent than 1870's? (sorry, still forlornly hopeful ...)
many thanks Shaun, much appreciated
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May Duncans is a little bit further up at 33 Heyworth Street. As far as I recall it's the only building remaining on that side of the street.
It used to be the Thistle: here's an old photo which also shows St Benedict's (now demolished).
http://goo.gl/fO9QgZ
http://www.liverpoolpicturebook.com/p/l4-l5.html
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Hi Paul,
Was just having a nose around and came upon your question. I decided to look up Liverpool Lost pubs and the first one I came across was this. It seems to be the pub, called Athol Vaults
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Hi,
Was wondering if anyone might be able to put a name to the pub in background of the attached photo?
I'm fairly certain that it was taken in Liverpool, possibly 1920's or 30's. The street plate on the side of the pub appears to read '------ Place'.
I myself think it might be within the Everton area of the city, as that's where the line from which the photo came lived.
Any ideas?
Thanks
Paul
1888
The Debenture Corporation invite applications for £600,000 of share capital and £400,000 of debentures in Threlfalls Brewery Company.
...
The company has been formed for the purpose of acquiring and working the old-established business of the late Mr. J. M. Threlfall of Liverpool and Salford, and also of purchasing and amalgamating therewith the business of Mr W. A. Matheson, brewer, of Juvenall-street, Liverpool. ...
The price to be paid for the properties is £943,950 ...
At Liverpool Record Office
Threlfalls Chesters Ltd, brewers, minutes, agenda, attendance books, registers, accounts, ledgers, journals, cash books, salaries and property records
1783 - 1974
Accession 5538 & 5559
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/N13770803
For other Threlfall of Liverpool items (noted online with TNA, Kew)
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=Threlfall%20liverpool&_dss=range&_sd=1850&_ed=1880&_ro=any&_st=adv
In 1891 (inside the newspaper the page has printed 1981)
HORNCASTLE
Treat to Workmen.
Last week Messrs. Threlfall of Liverpool, treated their employees in their malt kilns at Horncastle to an excursion to Liverpool and back. ...
The newspaper says they started out on Wednesday and returned home by special train on Thursday and were treated in a grand manner and being most hospitably entertained.
Records
The records at Liverpool R O, look to be the Company records, enquire if they have a Property Ledger/s. (The records of some companies, may still contain copy deeds and mortgages of premises they bought and sold).
I know that in the early half of the 20th Century (another Brewery Company) in their Company Records submitted to Companies House a single page Mortgage Certificate (where they took out a Mortgage on a particular pub) and you may well find a Mortgage Certificate with the Pub name and town area / address, in the Company Records they submitted to Companies House.
If searching Company Records submitted to Companies House (after about 1860) you need to check if the parts being kept are at TNA, Kew, or the whole record is still at Companies House.
Some Brewery Companies change their name many times and have subsidiary companies, but if you have the official Company Registration Number and that company is still live, or archived at Companies House, (or pay their search fee to find the original name and Company No.) you can get the accounts, correspondence submitted to Companies House, and very brief Mortgage Certificates.
I have purchased other brewery records on a pack of Fiche for £9.00 per company (100 years plus, of continuous trading is quite a number of fiche for some companies). They were about £20 and on disc, last time.
Regards Mark
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Hello Pablo C
I may have some information on the Vallelly family from Co Louth, Ireland.
Paul L.