RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: EAP on Thursday 10 July 08 22:46 BST (UK)
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Hello All,
This is my first posting to this section of the message board.
My mother-in-law (born 1906) had aunts or uncles who were brothers and sisters of her mother. They owned a travelling fairground. She spent many childhood holidays with them. The fairground family was well off. Her aunt had a fur coat and lots of gold jewellery.
My mother-in-law's mother's maiden name was WHITTLE, and I know from marriage certificates, 1881 census etc, that she was born in Hillingdon / Uxbridge and that her father, George WHITTLE, was a canal boatman, born Bromsgrove Worcestershire about 1830. Presumably he worked on the Grand Union Canal.
I would be very interested to know whether anyone has come across a) a WHITTLE fairground or b) a WHITTLE girl who married into a fairground family.
My sister-in-law also has a vague and perhaps unreliable memory that my mother-in-law's brothers sometimes helped out at the fairground. This makes me think the fair must have travelled around in the London / Middlesex area.
Edwina
PS. I am NOT after the fur coat or the gold jewellery 8)
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Hi Edwina
If you google whittle Fairgrounds a few things pop up ...these look interesting:
http://www.nfa.dept.shef.ac.uk/history/rides/rplane1.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/radioballads/2006/fairgrounds/credits.shtml
deb :)
ps ...It would be nice to have the fur coat and gold ;D
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Hi Deb,
Thank you for that suggestion. I'll follow it up now. :)
OK. I'll share the goodies with you if anything materialises. ;)
Edwina
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Hi
i am a Whittle from the Surrey area. According to my Grandmother i too am related to the Whittle's fairground,
Regards
Perry
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Hi Perry :)
Welcome to Rootschat ! I am sure you will enjoy yourslf here.
Hopefully you and Edwina can find a connection.
deb ;D
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Hello Perry,
What a bit of luck that you have found my message on your first posting. :)
I have been looking online this afternoon, and I saw an image of a steam traction engine in the Camberley area that was used in Surrey by the WHITTLE fairground.
http://www.surreyheath.gov.uk/tourism/SurreyHeathMuseums/comeandsee.htm
They do not give any further information. My husband's grandmother was Mabel Alice WHITTLE and her parents were George and Emma (born about 1842, maiden name ALLAWAY). Mabel had a brother George, born about 1866, but I do not know many other details. We are all kicking ourselves because we have forgotten the name of the fairground aunt my mother-in-law used to stay with.
Do you or your grandmother know any more details about your fairground background?
Hope to hear from you soon.
And thanks, Deb, for getting me searching on the internet.
Edwina
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sadly my grandmother passed away last year and grandfather died about 35 years ago, i will speak to my father and try to get more info. His father was Tom Whittle. My father did tell me that the fairground Whittle's became related to the Hickey's of Richmond family who were boiler makers (makes sense being steam folk). If i got it right Hickey's daughter married a Whittle, do you have any more info?
regards
Perry
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The fairground family was well off.
indeed, that is what i was told by elder members of my family. In fact apparently the fairground family owned substantial amounts of property too in the affluant Richmond Hill area. I'll keep digging and see what i can find out
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Hi :)
Have been looking around for the whittle Family.
In 1881 George Whittle is 51, Emma 39, George 15 and Mabel is 9months.
By 1891 We have George and Emma living with Mabel 11 and their son Alfred ,10. Also in the home is Margaret Grafton (daughter, 29 married) and their s-i-l William with Bertie 5, Thomas 3, Nellie 5months and Beatrice 12months :-\
The children are refered to as Nieces and nephews :-\
George and Emma (nee Alloway) married dec q 1867 Uxbridge ...so who is Margaret's mother? I cannot find them in 1871.
Did you know of the other children?
Margaret - b 1862
George - b 1866
Mabel A - 1880
Alfred -1881
I cannot find a birth reg for Margaret Whittle.
ahhh okay ...found a marriage : William Grafton 1886 Bethnal Green and on the same page ...Mary Ann Whittle.
will search further
deb :)
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hi
i spoke to my parents and my grandfather was
Thomas William Whittle, born around 1910
My parents confirmed the relationship to the Whittle family fairground, but it goes way back.
The Whittle coat of arms
(http://www.pezzar.plus.com/whittlecoa.jpg)
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Hi Perry
Who were Thomas William Whittle's (1910) parents?
deb :)
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hi
This was on National Archives ....
VARIOUS PHOTOGRAPHS RELATED TO STEAM ENGINES, FAIRGROVES AND HORSES
Reference 1087
Covering dates 1882-1957
Held by Greater Manchester County Record Office
G.A. Whittle & Sons. Chariot Racing. Written on back- "G. A. Whittle's Burrell 'Princess Morg' at Old Deer Park, Richmond, Surrey, on Sun. 9th April, 1939. Copyright A.C. Durant. 1087/20 1939
Contents:
Negative Sheet Number T44/33
a photo ...how great ! I wonder if you can order a copy online?
deb :)
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Hi again
AT LAST!!! I have found them in 1871 ... there was quite a gap between George b 1866 and Mabel Alice b 1880 ...
so this may be the missing children , who would be the missing aunts and uncles of Edwina's mother-in-law.
1871
Uxbridge, Hillingdon
2 Canal Street
Emma WITTLE head mar 28 Boatman's wife b Hillingdon
Mary ALLOWAY dau 9 ...she nust be Mary Ann/Margaret who married Wm Grafton
Eliza ALLOWAY dau 6
George ALLOWAY 6 ( aka George Whittle)
Hannah WITTLE dau 4months
all born Hillingdon
a few houses away ... Jane Alloway widow, 60 b Uxbridge
deb
so it seems that possibly Emma Whittle/Alloway was married prior.
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G. A. Whittle's Burrell 'Princess Morg' at Old Deer Park, Richmond, Surrey, on Sun. 9th April, 1939.
this ties in with what i have been told, Richmond was a key area for the family during that period
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:) Interesting, Perry. I've also done some more internet browsing!
A young girl called Olivia WHITTLE was the carnival queen in Hayes (London Borough of Hillingdon) recently. She is a showman's daughter.
http://www.hillingdontimes.co.uk/mostpopular.var.2380173.mostcommented.shire_horses_for_hayes_carnival.php
I would so like to find some history of the WHITTLE fairground, and find out where my husband's 19th century ancestors fit in.
Perhaps Alfred or young George became showmen.
Deb - Thanks for all your research. Very much appreciated. Hannah WHITTLE did not live long. On freeBMD she died Dec q 1871.
Based on experience in my own tree, I wonder if Emma ALLOWAY and George WHITTLE had a couple of children before they were married, especially if he was away on his boat sometimes :o. I'll try to persuade my husband to order a few birth certificates, so we can confirm / eliminate some of the possibilities on freeBMD.
Thanks for all your interest, folks. 8)
Edwina
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8)
I think I may be getting somewhere - but my husband has to want to get the certificates before I can check ;)!
on freeBMD I have found an 1889 marriage between George WHITTLE and Lavinia SMITH in Holborn district. (remember there was an 'uncle George' in my husband's tree.)
1) WHITTLE and SMITH are surnames that occur together as joint owners on at least one of the showground sites I have looked at.
2) On one of the resources listed in this section of Rootschat, (Romany chat, perhaps?) there is also a girl called Chelmsford Daisy WHITTLE christened in Walton-on-Thames in 1904. Parents George and Lavinia.
3) On freeBMD she was born as Chelmer Daisy WHITTLE in the Chelmsford, Essex Registration district.
A travelling family, or what?
Might be Uncle George...
Edwina ;D
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Hi Edwina
I have been looking into the Hickey family of Richmond...
I found this;
In 1901 there is a James Hickey, 41 boiler maker b Leeds married to a Rebecca, 37 b Suffolk, They have the following children:
Amanda BRADLEY 18
Albert HICKEY 13
James HICKEY 11
William HICKEY 9
Bernard HICKEY 7
all living in Richmond Surrey
In 1891 they have a Kate Whittle, 20 living with them
I found this marriage;
Henry Inkerman BRADLEY = Rebecca WHITTLE in 1882
I have not been able to find her marriage to James Hickey the boiler maker yet.
deb :)
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Hi again, Deb,
Well, the plot is definitely thickening.
It looks as if Rebecca and James might have been living anywhere when they got married, then. Shows how far they travelled. Kate WHITTLE looks promising.
Thanks for this. Will have some thinks and might be back in a few days.
Edwina :D
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wooohoooooo Edwina .... look at this;
1891
Berks, Maidenhead, Cookham
The Moors, Bridge rd
George a Whittle head mar 23 or 25 ? Traveling showman b Uxbridge
Lavinia wife 22 assistant b Surrey Egham
George A son under ? months
/
William Smith head mar 68 Steam Circus proprietor
Mary A wife assistant 58
John 27 "
Albert 17 "
Amy 14 "
/
Rowland family ...also travelling showmen
so it seems that the Whittle's may have got into the circus/showman business through the Smith's
will search further
deb ;D
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Hi again ...
I think the circus was in Essex in 1901 ;D
RG13/1611 fol 48 pages 41-44
Yes there are 4 pages of all the travelling showmen :o
George Whittle 21 ::) travelling showman b N.K. telling fibs about age , I think
Lavinia wife 29 b Surrey Egham
Lavinia A dau 6 b Surrey Woking
Lewis W son 4 B " "
Violet dau 1 b Stratford Essex
Ellen Smith 16 Niece helper in show b Windsor, Berks
on the same page there is an Albert Smith 36, Glasgow who is a Cinematographer
deb ;D
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Have now ordered marriage certificate for George and Lavinia, to see if his father was George WHITTLE, boatman. Fingers crossed.
Edwina
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I might have some information for you :)
I have a newspaper cutting recording the death of Mrs. Rebecca Whittle.
in it there is reference to her husband A. H. Whittle and how they worked in the Smith and Whittle Show
before the 1914-1918 war. Rebecca used to run the shooting range!
I have some other newspaper cuttings......The death of my great grandfather George Alfred in 1942 and another cutting about the wedding of Mr. Herbert Turner to Miss Violet Whittle, second daughter of Mr. and Mrs. G. A. Whittle the well known show people of Blackwater in 1933. Gifts included a Musquash coat and a Wolsley Hornet car.
I am happy to pass on any other information if it helps
Trevor Whittle
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Dear Trevor,
Thank you so much for your posting. This is really interesting, and I shall pass your reply over to my husband for him to look at. I suspect his family had lost contact with the WHITTLEs by the 1930s or 40s, though perhaps his grandmother had not.
We are still waiting for the marriage certificate. IF it shows a connection with George WHITTLE the boatman, you and my husband may be connected. If not, we are still searching, though it still seems likely that these families must mesh together somewhere down the line.
I'll get back to the list in a few days, to report back about the marriage certificate and to let you know what my husband says about the newspaper cuttings.
Best wishes,
Edwina :D
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Dear Trevor and Perry,
I have just been browsing again on freeBMD, and wondered whether either of you were related to Minnie WHITTLE? If so, she is quite a scoop 8).
Marriages Sep 1916: Smart William G; Whittle; Bristol, 6a, 347. married Whittle Minnie; Smart; Bristol, 6a, 347.
If this is Minnie WHITTLE marrying the famous Billy SMART, whose son ran the big circus, then this is quite something. Unfortunately a bit too far removed from my husband for us to bask in any of the fame!
Edwina :)
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Sorry, but I don't recognise the name Minnie.
We live in West Sussex. We moved down from London just before I was born (1966)
I still have family in London. I will ask my parents for more info!
Regards
Trevor
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I now have a marriage certificate for George WHITTLE and Lavinia SMITH (1889). He says he's 22 years old, (ie. born about 1867) which is about right for being the son of George WHITTLE, boatman, and Emma ALLOWAY.
His occupation is 'Carman' (ie. a jobbing cart driver). His father is George WHITTLE, occupation 'Carter'. I believe a carter could be transporting goods either by road or water, but I am not sure about that.
Lavinia's father is William SMITH, 'Traveller'.
They were both living at 21, Wellesley Street, Holborn, London, and the witnesses were W. Grafton and M.A. Grafton - no idea who they could be.
So the certificate is not as conclusive as I had hoped, though the dates tie up nicely. :-\
I think the 1891 census that Deb transcribed shows that, even if he wasn't in the fairground business when he got married, he soon teamed up with Lavinia's family, as we thought.
More thinks needed now... ::)
Best wishes,
Edwina
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hi,
have a look! Does this help anyone :)
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Thank you Trevor. Great to see a picture of George A., though obviously not in the happiest of circumstances. And especially to read his wife's tribute to him. I presume 'L.' is Lavinia.
Edwina :)
Just an afterthought to what I have just written:
I have been wondering overnight if perhaps I have jumped a generation. Perhaps your photo is of George and Lavinia's son, born about 1891. He would have been Violet's brother, and would have been about 50 when he died. If it is Lavinia's husband, he would have been about 73. ??? :-\
Perhaps you know, Trevor?
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Hi :)
Have been looking around for the whittle Family.
In 1881 George Whittle is 51, Emma 39, George 15 and Mabel is 9months.
By 1891 We have George and Emma living with Mabel 11 and their son Alfred ,10. Also in the home is Margaret Grafton (daughter, 29 married) and their s-i-l William with Bertie 5, Thomas 3, Nellie 5months and Beatrice 12months :-\
The children are refered to as Nieces and nephews :-\
George and Emma (nee Alloway) married dec q 1867 Uxbridge ...so who is Margaret's mother? I cannot find them in 1871.
Did you know of the other children?
Margaret - b 1862
George - b 1866
Mabel A - 1880
Alfred -1881
I cannot find a birth reg for Margaret Whittle.
ahhh okay ...found a marriage : William Grafton 1886 Bethnal Green and on the same page ...Mary Ann Whittle.
will search further
deb :)
Hi Edwina ...
The witnesses may be his sister, Mary Ann who married William GRAFTON
deb :)
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Hi again
I think that your marriage cert is correct ...especially with the witnesses .
Another thing; In 1871 Emma is a BOATMAN"S wife ..this is the occupation that would be on George jnr birth cert. By1881 George snr is a bricklayer's labourer (as per census) but in 1891 George snr is a CARMAN...so it seems to all add up pretty nicely. :)
deb
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Back again ;D
re ; the Tribute to George A Whittle ,,,perhaps it is George A jnr as there are tributes underneath Mrs L Whittle by sons Stanley and Joey. I don't think George Snr had sons by those names.
deb :)
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Thank you, Deb. I had also noticed the Stanley / Joey clue, but had forgotten to scroll back and re-read the information you had already found about the GRAFTON connection. Thank you for quoting it again.
My feeling at the moment is that George WHITTLE (b.1830) probably had a son, George (b. about 1867) (who may have started life as George ALLOWAY ???) and a daughter, Mabel (my husband's grandmother). George (b.1867) got involved through his horse-and-carting with fairground work, married Lavinia SMITH (the boss's daughter!) and came into the fairground business. Then George and Lavinia's son George A (b.1891) would have been the man in the picture.
It also means it might well have been George and Lavinia that my mother-in-law went to stay with.
Nearly there? :-\
Edwina
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:)
Marriage certificate for George WHITTLE and Emma ALLOWAY at St John's Church, Uxbridge Moor, Middlesex, has just this minute arrived.
They married on Christmas Day 1867. He was 34 (bachelor), she was 26 (spinster). His rank or profession: Boatman. But his father, William, was a bricklayer. Her father, also William, was a Labourer.
George signed the certificate himself, but Emma made a mark. The witnesses were Thomas HUNT and George WILLIS. I think my husband is beginning to get a taste for this now, so I expect he will soon be wanting to check up on some of the other related certificates. I'll be able to let him get on with the research a bit more then, and concentrate on my own tree. ;)
Best wishes,
Edwina
:)
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Another thing; In 1871 Emma is a BOATMAN"S wife ..this is the occupation that would be on George jnr birth cert. By1881 George snr is a bricklayer's labourer (as per census) but in 1891 George snr is a CARMAN...so it seems to all add up pretty nicely. :)
deb
seems that George snr. followed his dad's trade at times ...it all adds up really well! :)
deb
glad your husband is getting interested!
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Hi
Trying to follow up on George (b 1830) , his family.
On IGI we find this;
Children of William Whittle and Hannah; all extracted records
JOHN WITTLE : 27 OCT 1811 Bromsgrove, Worcester (age at christening 1)
WILLIAM WHITTLE 20 DEC 1820 Silver Street Baptist, Worcester s/o William Whittle and Hannah ROE extracted record)
JOSEPH WHITTLE 24 FEB 1824 Silver Street Baptist, Worcester
MARY WHITTLE 06 MAY 1827 Silver Street Baptist, Worcester
GEORGE WHITTLE 30 JAN 1831 Silver Street Baptist, Worcester
In 1841
Worcestershire
St Martin, Tallow Hill
Hannah WHITTLE 55
Mary 14
GEORGE 10
next door is a Martha Whittle 20
all born in county
I cannot find a William Whittle, bricklayer in 1841.
IGI has this marriage;
Willm Wittle = Hannah ROE
20 AUG 1810 Bromsgrove, Worcester
deb
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Hi again
1871
Uxbridge, Hillingdon
2 Canal Street
Emma WITTLE head mar 28 Boatman's wife b Hillingdon
Mary ALLOWAY dau 9 ...she nust be Mary Ann/Margaret who married Wm Grafton
Eliza ALLOWAY dau 6
George ALLOWAY 6 ( aka George Whittle)
Hannah WITTLE dau 4months
all born Hillingdon
a few houses away ... Jane Alloway widow, 60 b Uxbridge
deb
i have been going batty for quite some time trying to find EMMA Alloway's family. ;D At last I think I have them ...they have been transcribed under the name ANWAY but it is def. ALLOWAY on original
HO107/1697 fol 165 p 66
1851
St John RdUxbridge
WILLIAM ALLOWAY head mar 35 ag lab b Hillingdon
JANE wife 35 char woman b Uxbridge
Susannah 12
Mary 10
EMMA 8
Elizabeth 6
Eliza/Elvira? 1
James 4 months
all children b Uxbridge
This goes well with her dad being William a labourer on her marriage cert!
will try to find her parent's marriage
deb :)
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hi
Have been trying to find them in 1841 to see if any clues as to Jane's maiden name pops up ....
this is the closest family I can find .... you need to look at original to be sure but the last letters on original for surname is "***oway"
1841
Hillingdon
UXBRIDGE MOOR ....where George Whittle and Emma Alloway married ;D
William ...oway 20 lab
Jane 20
Susannah 13 months
Mary 3 months
all born in county
the beginning of the surname could possibbly be an "A" as there is an Andrews family further down the page . Anyway the above family has been transcribed as Ferency :-\ :-\ ::)
cannot find them under Alloway/Allaway etc etc
deb
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can't find a marriage yet...but here may be some of the children's birth registrations;
James John Alloway;June q 1851 Uxbridge vol 3 p 446
ummm I thought I would find more ... can't see them yet either :-\
deb
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:o
Wow! Hang on a minute, Deb! I normally get an e-mail message to say if there have been responses on any of the threads I am following. Nothing has come through though. Did not realise you were doing all this ALLOWAY research for me!!! Thank you. ;D
No wonder I have not been able to find the ALLOWAYs on the census. You are a real detective. :)
Thanks for looking up some Worcestershire WHITTLEs for me. From freeBMD I know that it is a very northern name, but there is quite a busy Birmingham / Worcestershire contingent as well. In fact I am wondering if George WHITTLE born 1867 could turn out to be
Births Sep 1866 Whittle George King's N 6c 425
The Stratford Canal meets the Worcester and Birmingham Canal at Kings Norton. You never know, Emma might have gone gallivanting on the canal with her George before the children started to arrive!
I think all the info you have found seems to be right. I'm getting a long list now of things to look up on the originals. So many things to do! :(
Anyway, thanks for all this. I'm really so grateful, but please don't feel you've got to carry on - unless you have got the scent of the chase and are enjoying it!
All the best for now.
Edwina
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Slightly off the beaten track, because we thought they never strayed from Uxbridge, but I have found a possible marriage for William ALLOWAY and Jane:
Marriages Sep 1837: ALLAWAY William, St.Mary Magdalan Bermondsey, 4, 8.
ROFFEY Jane, St.Mary Magdalen Bermondsey, 4, 8.
Several other marriages on that page too, though, so no way of knowing whether this pair match up, unless I get the certificate. The only other William ALLOWAY marriage was in Cookham district - not too far from Uxbridge, but no Jane listed.
:)
Edwina
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>:(
Re George WHITTLE's birth Sep 1866, I think this may be a baby who died :'( : Deaths Jun 1867: Whittle George, 0, King's N. 6c, 236.
Never mind, keep looking...
:)
Edwina
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Hello again, Deb, :)
This is the 1841 address you gave me:
In 1841
Worcestershire
St Martin, Tallow Hill
Hannah WHITTLE 55
Mary 14
GEORGE 10
next door is a Martha Whittle 20
all born in county
deb
Tallow Hill, Worcester is a street that runs up eastwards from St Martin's Gate, crossing the Worcester and Birmingham Canal. I have not been there, only seen it on the map. This makes the address sound very likely. Does 1841 tell us whether people were married, widowed, unmarried? I don't think it does, does it? Pity. You never know, William might also have worked on the canal too. Bridges, wharves etc all needed maintaining...
Thanks again, Deb :-*
Edwina
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Slightly off the beaten track, because we thought they never strayed from Uxbridge, but I have found a possible marriage for William ALLOWAY and Jane:
Marriages Sep 1837: ALLAWAY William, St.Mary Magdalan Bermondsey, 4, 8.
ROFFEY Jane, St.Mary Magdalen Bermondsey, 4, 8.
Hi Edwina
Nice to hear from you ... I also have not been receiving replies to some threads :-\
anyway ...going on the basis of Jane Roffey being his wife I have found this on IGI
JANE ROFFEY
06 DEC 1816 Saint Mary, Lambeth, Surrey
parents; Richard Roffey and Mary
extracted
The age seems to add up according to the 1851 census where she is 35 but she claims Uxbridge as her POB.
I cannot seem to spot them in 1861 :-\
I am also wondering why I can't find William and Jane Alloway's children's births ...maybe ordering James John Alloway's cert would help...James John Alloway;June q 1851 Uxbridge vol 3 p 446
will look further
deb :)
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Thanks for this, Deb. Will be back again when I get the chance. Must go now...
:D
Edwina
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Hi again
AT LAST!!! I have found them in 1871 ... there was quite a gap between George b 1866 and Mabel Alice b 1880 ...
1871
Uxbridge, Hillingdon
2 Canal Street
Emma WITTLE head mar 28 Boatman's wife b Hillingdon
Mary ALLOWAY dau 9 ...she nust be Mary Ann/Margaret who married Wm Grafton
Eliza ALLOWAY dau 6
George ALLOWAY 6 ( aka George Whittle)
Hannah WITTLE dau 4months
all born Hillingdon
a few houses away ... Jane Alloway widow, 60 b Uxbridge
I wonder if this is George's birth reg ...
George A Allaway
Mar q 1866
Lewisham Greater London
vol 1d p 861
George Whittle and Emma Alloway married Christmas day ( :D) 1867 ...so he would most likely be registered under her maiden name !
deb :)
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This must be Mary Ann's birth reg ... George's older sister, she married William Grafton ..
Mary Ann Allaway
June q 1861
Uxbridge Middlesex
vol 3a p 20
deb :)
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Great news about Mary Ann! You are posting faster than I can reply. Your information about Mary Ann arrived while I was still writing a reply about a possible George WHITTLE birth. ;D
This is what I was about to post re the George WHITTLE birth:
Yup, I saw that one online and wondered about it. S.E. London is my family territory - never heard of anyone from my husband's family down that way! ;)
I'll have to see which of these he wants to start off by ordering. I think the only way is to work our way through the options. Up till now I have been the family history buff, and he is very busy at the moment. But there is no point me ordering things and getting carried away. I always find I have to think through it all quite slowly so I can get a feel for what is going on, and I think it will be the same for him - especially with all these Georges! ;)
Thank you very much.
Best wishes,
Edwina
8)
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Hi edwina
So glad I can be of help ;D
I have been looking for Emma Alloway's birth reg ...there is this one that keeps popping up ...right place and date but no surname :-\;
Emma
June q 1842
Uxbridge Middlesex
3 323
there is no original to look at. Tried the complete index but no luck on Allaway/Alleway or Alloway :-\ :-\ :-\
I wonder if Emma pretended to be married to George when she had Mary Ann, Eliza and George as it is only Hannah who was registered as a Whittle.
deb :)
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Good morning Deb! (my time here :D)
I have just been looking at freeBMD and the scan for this index reference looks rather like 'Chissnell' (could be Chiswell), though it is not completely clear. It is in among the CHISNALLs and CHISWELLs, anyway. I don't think we've found any Jane CHISSNELLs, who could be her unmarried mother, have we? So perhaps it is not her. It did sound good at first. :(
I think you are probably right about Emma and George not being married till after the kids started to arrive. I think people often called the children by the surname of the head of household anyway. My mother's brother was really her mother's son from a first marriage, but he used my grandfather's surname, because he was only little when my grandma re-married. His own children and his sons' children have all used my grandfather's surname. Now I do family history, it makes me wonder what kind of brick walls they will come up against if they ever start on their own family history :-\
Ah well, thanks for all that. Time for work. Bye for now.
Edwina
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I'm wondering if my partner could be related to these Whittles. His grandfather was also called George Whittle born in Surrey born around 1900.
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Hello MissChampers :)
As you can see, some of the links among these members of the WHITTLE family are still a bit unclear, but it would be good to collect some more details to see if they link together. Do you know any more about your partner's grandfather, such as where he was born? Did he also have a fairground connection?
I hope we can help one another :D
Edwina
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Hello again, Readers :)
Deb wrote:
I wonder if this is George's birth reg ...
George A Allaway
Mar q 1866
Lewisham Greater London
vol 1d p 861
Well :( :'( I now have that birth certificate, and it is not for any son of Emma ALLOWAY and George WHITTLE, unfortunately. >:(
It is for a George Albert, son of James ALLAWAY, fishmonger, and his wife, Ann ALLAWAY, formerly AMBROSE. I can see from freeBMD that this couple were married in Kensington Registration District in 1854.
So, if any descendants of James and Ann happen to read this, please send me a PM and you are welcome to have the certificate :), as I do not think we shall be needing it.
Best wishes,
Edwina
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Hi Edwina
well that is very disappointing :-\ :-\ :-\ So sorry that it did work out!
I know spending money on cert's can be tough but what about Mary Ann Alloway/Whittle who married William Grafton :
Mary Ann Allaway
June q 1861
Uxbridge Middlesex
vol 3a p 20
I will search further for George's BC
deb
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umm what about this;
George Halloway
Mar q 1866
Uxbridge, Middlesex
vol 3a p 23
found this one too:
Elizabeth Esther Allaway Dec q 1863 Uxbridge Middlesex
deb
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Pure genius, Deb :)
Should have thought of that myself, because I have some HARLIN / ARLINs in my own line. ???
George Halloway
Mar q 1866
Uxbridge, Middlesex
vol 3a p 23
Looks very promising. Will probably try that one.
Edwina
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Hi Edwina
I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hope he's the one , else I might have to send you money to recoup your losses ;D
BTW ...I have seen an EMMA HARROWAY b c 1842 Uxbridge ...I wonder if that is a mistranscription from the original ? Take a look and see what you think!
I am off to the beach until Friday ... will be back then.
Take care
deb :)
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You are funny, Deb :D. Be careful now, I have your written statement about reinbursement here 8).
Enjoy the beach. The rain here is hammering steadily, and this is the second day now, so the beach is somewhere I shall NOT be going. Have fun.
Thanks very much for the suggestions.
Edwina
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can't find a marriage yet...but here may be some of the children's birth registrations;
James John Alloway;June q 1851 Uxbridge vol 3 p 446
ummm I thought I would find more ... can't see them yet either :-\
deb
Just re-visiting some old e-mail contacts from 2003, Deb, plus re-reading this thread. Someone else has already claimed James John. His parents were John ALLAWAY and Ann BROWN. Will probably add to this post later in the week. It is in danger of turning into an ALLOWAY thread ???
For any new readers - Welcome! :) The idea is to try and see if George WHITTLE and Emma ALLAWAY definitely had a son, George, who went into the fairground business.
We know a George WHITTLE married a Lavinia SMITH in 1889 and became involved with the fairground, but I am trying to find out if he was definitely the same George WHITTLE, born 1867, who was also known as George ALLOWAY / ALLAWAY.
I'm sure the saga will continue ::) :-\
Best wishes,
Edwina 8)
-
Hi
sorry i've been gone so long, i have found out my grandfather was married twice, first to Alice Agnis Cheeseman then to Mary Ann Scally born Rosscommon Ireland (my grandmother)
My grandfather Thomas William Whittle's mother was Jane Sedgewick later Jane Whittle (my sister is named after her). My father and aunt believe my great grandfather was either William or George. Problem is with that era you never knew your grandparents that well to know their full names i suppose. Hope this helps
Perry Whittle
-
:)
Hello again Perry,
I thought perhaps you had changed your mind about doing family history - but you were obviously researching... some good stuff.
Do you know the website: <http://freebmd.rootsweb.com> ? Very useful for finding ancestors on the GRO records indexes.
Have just looked at it and found the following:
Marriages Mar 1902
Alexander Ernest Hembest Chertsey 2a 96
Potter Ethel Chertsey 2a 96
Sedgwick Jane Chertsey 2a 96
Whittle George Chertsey 2a 96
Each of these people has his or her marriage entered on volume 2, Chertsey registration district, page 2 for the 3 month period Jan - Mar 1902. In this case we can be pretty sure that Jane and George belong together on the same marriage certificate, I think! ;D
If you look on the freeBMD site it tells you how to order the certificate from GRO if you want it (costs £7). The certificate will give their address and father's name and occupation.
We seem to be collecting George WHITTLEs on this thread. I'll read through everything again tomorrow to try and think whether any of them could be the same person. ???
Best wishes,
Edwina
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A friend has just alerted me to this posting...
I am a Great grandson of George Alfred Whittle who was married to Lavinia Smith.
They had a son called George Alfred (known as Alfie Whittle) who was my Dad's Dad.
Myself and my family are still travelling showpeople today, travelling the South of England.
I know that Stanley Whittle was one of my grandfather's brothers and his descendants are still travelling members of the Showmans Guild as are most of George and Lavinia's childrens families,
The Whittle family yard was at Blackwater near Camberley, this yard was sold during 1960's. After the yard was sold, my father's part of the family moved to Chertsey, where I was born.
I will ask my father for more info and dates when I catch up with him at another fair and will share my findings.
Sheldon Whittle
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Hello Sheldon,
Thank you very much for this! :D
I'll wait and see what information you find out from your dad.
Edwina
-
Hello,
I have been researching the WHITTLE/HICKEY connection as part of my research into the MORLEY family tree.
Information on The Whittles:
Edward WHITTLE born C1750 in Melford married Mary ? and had a son called Robert WHITTLE b. C1776 in Melford Suffolk.
Robert WHITTLE married Martha ? and had 3 children:
Samuel WHITTLE b. C 1815 Newton, Suffolk d. 2 Nov 1853
James WHITTLE b. C 1818
Maria WHITTLE b. C1820 d. 4th May 1828
Samuel WHITTLE (1859 labourer) married Elizabeth BOREHAM and had 5 children:
George WHITTLE b. 31st March 1831
George WHITTLE b. C1836 d. 29th march 1839
Elijah WHITTLE b. 21st Dec 1839 Stanstead, Suffolk
George WHITTLE b. 24th March 1845
George WHITTLE b. 2nd July 1851
Elijah WHITTLE (Labourer)(b. 21st Dec 1839 in Stanstead Suffolk) married Sarah BRUCE and had 9 children:
Susannah WHITTLE b. 1st June 1862 Glemsford, Suffolk
Rebecca WHITTLE b. 18th July 1864 Stanstead, Suffolk
Eliza WHITTLE b. C1866 Stanstead, Suffolk
Thomas WHITTLE b. 8th March 1868 Stanstead, Suffolk
kate WHITTLE b. C1871 Wandsworth, Surrey (entered as a servant on the 1891 Census).
James WHITTLE b.C 1873 Wandsworth, Surrey
Ada WHITTLE b C1876 Putney, London
George WHITTLE b C1878, Putney, London
Sarah WHITTLE b. C 1897 Kew, Surrey
This is the information I have on the Hickey's:
Martin HICKEY (occupation Bootmaker) b. C1841 in Ireland married Eliza O'DONNELL.
Their son was James HICKEY b.22nd Feb 1851 in Leeds.
James met (although not sure if married) Rebecca WHITTLE c1887 (previously Rebecca Bradley. She had previously been married to Henry Inkerman BRADLEY and had my Great Grandmother Augusta Eliza BRADLEY in 1882). In 1882 Rebecca lived at 9 Garden Row, Mortlake.
James HICKEY was a boilermaker/riveter who started a business called James Hickey and sons in Sandycombe Road, Richmond in 1881. In 1891 they lived at 21 Alexandra Road and Rebecca WHITTLE is a laundress. In 1892 James Hickey worked as a riveter on Tower Bridge and rented/then purchased 14.5 acres of land in Cheshunt (formally Brickfields) including the boileryard and a house in Churchfields Path called Ingleside.
James HICKEY and Rebecca WHITTLE had 4 children:
Albert HICKEY b C1888
James HICKEY b. C1890
William HICKEY b. C1891
John Bernard HICKEY (aka Mike) b C1893.Married Clara FRASER 28th July 1919 in St Lukes Church Richmond.
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Hello NM :D
These WHITTLEs from your family tree look as if they come mostly from the Suffolk area. I wonder if they are related to my Bromsgrove George, or to George and Lavinia? As far as you have said, they do not seem to be connected to a fairground, though Perry, who posted an earlier message, mentioned WHITTLEs, HICKEYs and fairgrounds in his family... interesting...
These trees take some sorting out. :-\
Edwina
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Hi
I have spoken to my Father and have got hold of a family tree compiled in or around 2004.
This goes back to George and Lavinia which is as far as he knows.
The reference you made to the canal boats ties in with my Grandfathers memories of swimming in the canal at Islington whilst staying with Aunts and uncles (told by my father).
I have just tried to attach the copy of family tree but for some reason there was an error stating that the file is too big??? As this is an A4 copy I would have thought it would attach easily so any advice as to how to remedy this would be welcomed! Otherwise I can email the document on request.
Obviously the details of the earlier George and Emma Alloway was news to us and I am keen to find out more going further back again.
-
Well, the Islington connection sounds about right. :)
I have never attached anything to a rootschat message, so can't really offer any help on that one. Perhaps a more experienced user will read the message and come up with something.
I am away from home at the moment, and have just signed on quickly to read this. I'll catch up with you again once I'm home.
Thank you for this.
Edwina
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Hi everyone :) :)
My father did tell me that the fairground Whittle's became related to the Hickey's of Richmond family who were boiler makers (makes sense being steam folk). If i got it right Hickey's daughter married a Whittle, do you have any more info?
quote from NM:
"Their son was James HICKEY b.22nd Feb 1851 in Leeds.
James met (although not sure if married) Rebecca WHITTLE c1887 (previously Rebecca Bradley. She had previously been married to Henry Inkerman BRADLEY and had my Great Grandmother Augusta Eliza BRADLEY in 1882)"
James HICKEY was a boilermaker/riveter who started a business called James Hickey and sons in Sandycombe Road, Richmond in 1881.
1891
Berks, Maidenhead, Cookham
The Moors, Bridge rd
George a Whittle head mar 23 or 25 ? Traveling showman b Uxbridge
Lavinia wife 22 assistant b Surrey Egham
George A son under ? months
/
William Smith head mar 68 Steam Circus proprietor
Mary A wife assistant 58
John 27 "
Albert 17 "
Amy 14 "
/
Rowland family ...also travelling showmen
I think the Hickeys and the Smiths/Whittles must all connect somehow. the Boilermaking seems to be relevant to running a Steam Circus.
Still following this thread with much interest ... is there anything I can look for ...?
deb :)
-
George Halloway
Mar q 1866
Uxbridge, Middlesex
vol 3a p 23
deb
Dear All, :D
We now have a copy of this birth certificate. It is for a baby George, born 30th Jan 1866 Uxbridge Moor, Hillingdon. His mother was Emma HALLOWAY. So I am confident he grew up to be "George ALLOWAY (aka George WHITTLE)" as Deb told us was on the 1871 census. I am also confident he was my husband's grandmother's brother or half-brother.
There is no father stated on this birth certificate, so I do not know whether he was the son of George WHITTLE, boatman. He obviously grew up to think of him as a father, because after 1871 he seems to have been called WHITTLE. I know you cannot register a baby with the father's surname unless you are either married, or have the father with you to agree to it. Perhaps it was the same then. If George WHITTLE senior travelled on the boat, he may not have been around to acknowledge the birth, even though Emma seems to have waited until March before she registered the baby.
They were married the following December.
We still can't be sure 100% whether this is the birth certificate of George who married Lavinia, but it could be. The birth certificate only says George, not George Alfred, so it looks a bit doubtful, unless they gave him that name later. After all, he is only called George on the marriage certificate when he married Lavinia. I thought at first perhaps his initial A might have stood for ALLOWAY - but that might have been too good to be true.
I still think swimming in the canal sounds hopeful, Sheldon, because my mother-in-law's family lived in Islington. If she went to stay on the fairground sometimes, perhaps the WHITTLE boys sometimes came to stay with them too.
Thank you for your interest, Deb. If you know of any directories, parish records, or anything similar it still might help. I would never have found half this material without your help. Please carry on being interested and having bright ideas if you can. Very welcome from my point of view :D
Sheldon, I am sending you a PM because I guess you will probably be interested in George and Lavinia's marriage certificate.
Best wishes,
Edwina
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Do you know the website: <http://freebmd.rootsweb.com> ? Very useful for finding ancestors on the GRO records indexes.
Have just looked at it and found the following:
Marriages Mar 1902
Alexander Ernest Hembest Chertsey 2a 96
Potter Ethel Chertsey 2a 96
Sedgwick Jane Chertsey 2a 96
Whittle George Chertsey 2a 96
Each of these people has his or her marriage entered on volume 2, Chertsey registration district, page 2 for the 3 month period Jan - Mar 1902.
Just re-reading the posts and saw this bloomer. Everyone was too polite to point out that I must finally have lost it! Of course, I meant:
Volume 2a Chertsey registration district, page 96.
:-[
Edwina
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ahhh okay ...found a marriage : William Grafton 1886 Bethnal Green and on the same page ...Mary Ann Whittle.
will search further
deb :)
Have now ordered this marriage certificate.
Edwina
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:)
A probable marriage for Emma ALLAWAY's parents:
Marriages Jun 1842
HARROWAY William, Uxbridge, vol 3, p.305
WOODCOCK Jane, Uxbridge, vol 3, p.305
These two people were the only ones on that page.
This marriage looks more likely than the ALLAWAY / ROFFEY one I found in Bermondsey a little while ago.
Perhaps they were not yet officially married when Deb found them on the 1841 census:
1841
Hillingdon
William ...oway 20 lab
Jane 20
Susannah 13 months
Mary 3 months
all born in county
Edwina
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Hi Edwina
I have been looking for Susannah and Mary's birth reg ...the closest I coud find is this one:
Mary Ann Harroway
June q 1841 Uxbridge
vol 3 p 304
will look further
from a previous post we have this;
1851
St John Rd Uxbridge
WILLIAM ALLOWAY head mar 35 ag lab b Hillingdon
JANE wife 35 char woman b Uxbridge
Susannah 12
Mary 10
EMMA 8
Elizabeth 6
Eliza/Elvira? 1
James 4 months
all children b Uxbridge
Maybe the only way to find Jane's maiden name for sure is to order a birth cert ...
deb
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ooo Edwina
Could this be your EMMA Alloway
Emma Harroway June 1843 Uxbridge
vol 5 p 327
Have we found her family in 1861 yet?
deb
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I had seen this before ... I think it's worthy posting ;D 8)
1861
Rockingham Rd , Hillingdon
Jane HARROWAY head wid 39 laundreess b Uxbridge (maybe telling fibs about age) ;D
EMMA dau unm 18
Elizabeth dau 13
James son 12
Eliza dau 9
Jane dau 6
William son 2
all kids born Hillingdon
the other children tie in ...ie; James and Elizabeth
what do you think?
deb :)
-
ye gawds ...how many other ways can this surname be spelled :-\ ;D
Jane Arraway June q 1855 Uxbridge 3a 14
or
Jane Holloway 1857 Apr-May-Jun Uxbridge (date off)
deb
added ..I can't find a Jane Woodcock b c 1816 in Uxbridge on IGI (search 1816 =/- 10 years)
-
:)
1871:
Jane Halloway, 19 servant, unm, b Hillingdon is working in the home of George Brooks and family at 45 Rockingham Rd , Hillingdon.
The Alloway family is no longer at 50 Rockingham rd! :-\
can't see Jane snr yet ...
deb
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Edwina
re;1841
Hillingdon
William ...oway 20 lab
Jane 20
Susannah 13 months
Mary 3 months
all born in county
I have been looking for Susannah's birth circa late 1839 , early 1840
Look what I found;
Susan Woodcock 1840 Jan-Feb-Mar Uxbridge
I wonder ..... Jane Woodcock = William Harroway! I cannot find a Susan* Alloway/Halloway/Harroway etc born around that time in Uxbridge. I wonder if Jane Woodcock was married prior and William adopted Susannah?
let me recheck a birth for Mary..... no nothing under Woodcock !
will look further
deb
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You have been busy, Deb!
I think I agree with you about Mary: Births June 1841 HARROWAY Mary Ann Uxbridge 3 304
Also about the Susan WOODCOCK birth - had not got as far as thinking of that one!
Also think this one is right: Emma Harroway June 1843 Uxbridge
vol 5 p 327
Well done finding them on the 1861 census. I admit they had nutty ways of spelling their name, but basically they stayed in the same place, which has been a great help. Imagine if they had moved around too! ???
Yes, perhaps Jane had already been married once, but I think you are being very diplomatic. On my own family tree several of them seem to have thought it wasn't worth getting married unless the relationship had been fully tried and tested beforehand, so the ALLOWAYs may have felt the same way! Strict Victorian morality does not seem to have been as widespread as we are led to believe ::)
By the 1871 census I suppose the children had gone their separate ways:
1871
Uxbridge, Hillingdon
2 Canal Street
Emma WITTLE head mar 28 Boatman's wife b Hillingdon
Mary ALLOWAY dau 9 ...she nust be Mary Ann/Margaret who married Wm Grafton
Eliza ALLOWAY dau 6
George ALLOWAY 6 ( aka George Whittle)
Hannah WITTLE dau 4months
all born Hillingdon
a few houses away ... Jane Alloway widow, 60 b Uxbridge
Thank you for all this. You are a star.
Edwina :)
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Have been looking at the addresses in Uxbridge.
We have St John's Road, Rockingham Street, Canal Street, and Old Gas Yard Rockingham Road.
On Multimap Rockingham Road is the main A4007 through Uxbridge. It crosses the canal. Immediately after that it crosses the River Colne. As it crosses the river its name changes to St John's Road. Old Gas Yard is not there now, but the Gas Yards were almost always on the canal, so the coal for the Gas Works could be unloaded.
My mother-in-law was so funny. She used to say proudly, 'My mother was a countrywoman you know. She came from Uxbridge.' She had obviously never been back to Uxbridge herself, because it has all been built up for many years, I think. Not to mention London Airport...
Edwina :)
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Hello,
My name is Lloyd Whittle. I am 14 and am very interested in this thread ;D .
Here is a rough tree:
George Alfred Whittle-------¬--------Lavinia Smith
|
George Alfred Whittle-------¬--------Sibil (?Forget?)
|
--¬-----------------¬------------------¬--------------------¬----
Joyce Dennis Alfie Sible
|
------¬-----------------¬-----------------¬-------------------¬
Amelia Sheldon Spencer Wayne
| | |
--¬--------¬-- -----¬-------¬-- --------¬-------¬--------¬----
Marlow Lila Ashton Grace Charlie Reed Lloyd
Well there you go and I'm looking foreward to good feedback.
-L
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Hi Lloyd
Welcome to Rootschat ;D I wish I had started my research at your age ... I would have asked all my old rellies lots of questions which may have made looking for dead rellies a lot easier :D
I see the marriage of George Alfred Whittle to Sybil.... Not sure if she is alive so don't want to mention her name;
ref; Dec q 1919 Guilford Surrey
also the birth reg of Sybil, their child ...1920
thanks for all the info
deb :)
-
Thats alright. If you have any questions I will answer them as best as I can :) .
-L
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Hi Deb
my dad told me Aunt Sybil was married to Billy Lee from Canning Town they had three sons Billy Jimmy and Alfie, they also travelled in the showkeeping buisness.
they are both dead now.
My dad lived in Miami for a few years and then come back and settled down in Ryde on the Isle of Wight, he is now the Mayor of Ryde.
His grandad alf Whittle ( George Alfred ) also went to live in America in his younger days, i think it was during prohabition.
He lived in Chicargo, and then Canada, he wanted to live there forever but Sybil would only marry him if he stayed in the uk.
My dads Unkle Alfie's son and daughter Garry and Lorraine both live in Huston texas,
So you see we as a family have a strong will to move to America, just like your part of the family did.
Me and my brother Reed make cartoons and publish them on the internet http://uk.youtube.com/user/LegoGecko13 .
And we want to go to collage in California to study animation we want to work for Pixar or Dreamworks.
My grandad Dennis and grandma Olga still travel with the Fair they are both in their 70's now.
My dad has old pictures of the Whittle family when they all traveled together with their own big Whittle's Fair during the war.
Dad says all of his grandads brothers and sisters had nick names so it is hard to work out who was who from the birth certificates, there was Dutchy, N-word, Jack Davis, Len, Cockie, etc.
So How are you related to us ?
Aparently when G.A. Whittle senior Died the whole family sold up everything and split up, that was after they came back to the yard at Blackwater after they came out of the Drill Hall in Portsmouth,
they had been open in there during the blackout in the war, and left after Portamouth was carpet bombed by the Germans, everything was flat around them.
We know lots of the story, like i said Ask if you want to know anything about the showman side of the family, I am interested in what happened to the rest ???
Like you.....
-L
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Hi Lloyd ...
unfortunately for me, I am not part of the Whittle family although the other posters on this thread are ... I was helping search for them all throughout the censuses. ;D I too, have gypsy family ....the Penfolds and Orchards mainly from the Cornwall/Devon and Wiltshire areas.
Hopefully Edwina, who started this thread, will join us soon as I am sure you both will have a lot to follow up on! Her Alloway family married into the Whittle family.
deb :)
PS Good Luck with your future in animation.... think positively ...I am sure you will get what you want eventually !!! :D
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Hi Deb
my grandad lives in a yard next to Garry Penfold and his family at Hindhead
Thanks for your help
lloyd
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Hello LittleWhittle
My nan and grandad are burried at Wooton Bridge!
My grandad was John Whittle and my nans name was Edwardean. I remember my nan saying she used to do the 'Roll a penny' game when she was in her dads show (we now believe this to be 'Smith and Whittle'). Have a look at page 2 of this post, there is a photo attached. I wonder if maybe we are related?
Let me know what you think!
Thanks
Trevor Whittle
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Hello Trevor
my Dad has spoken to my grandad
The picture you have is of my dads great grandad
He had seven children
Stanely John Whittle...who may be your grandad as he married twice, his first wife was a Studd, he married again and had a so called Vincent.
stanley was the youngest son
joe whittle
lewis Whittle
and alf Whittle ( G A Whittle ) my dads grandad
the sisters were
venie, she married Jack Davis ( Uncle Jack )
Lovie, she married Len Pharoh
and
duchie ( her nick name as she spoke gibberish as a child, double douch )
We dont know her real name, but she married one of the Turner brothers from woking.
so you see Stanly whittle must of been your grandad.
he had two children in his first marrige
John Whittle, who had four kids john , Gary, lisa and Lyn
Gerald Whittle was his other son he had two boys Paul and dad cant remember his brothers name, but he aint done bad.
so Trevour who are you ?
who was your dad ?
-
Sorry I don't know these names. If we are related, it must be from when the family divided around the time the photo was taken. Have you read your messages?
-
Hello again!
Hello Lloyd :). You know a lot about your family. Deb is right about asking the questions while people are still alive. It is my husband who has the connection to the WHITTLE family, but it is a long way back. I have been trying to find out whether his canal boatman ancestor was the father of George Alfred WHITTLE who married Lavinia SMITH.
I now have the marriage certificate of William GRAFTON and Mary Ann WHITTLE for December 26th 1886. They were the witnesses at George Alfred and Lavinia's wedding. Mary Ann WHITTLE's father was:
George WHITTLE - Barge carter.
This occupation seems to me like the missing link among all the other certificates I have collected. Sometimes old George is called a boatman, sometimes a carrier, sometimes a carter, and now a barge carter. It must be the same George every time, I think. So Mary Ann was the sister of George Alfred. And Mabel Alice WHITTLE, my husband's grandmother, must have been their sister. :D
Sheldon WHITTLE has an excellent family tree showing the descendants of George and Lavinia. Perhaps worth seeing if you can get a copy??
No one in my husband's family has any fairground or travelling connections. When my mother-in-law said she used to go and stay with relations who kept a fairground, we did not know where it was, but now we have learned so much about the WHITTLE & SMITH fair. Thank you all!
I do not seem to have time to write up all this information properly, but some time in the next few months I will definitely do so. I shall put the information I now have that goes back to Worcester in 1816 and beyond in with my husband's family and Sheldon's tree, so we can see how it all fits together. But I shall try not to include living people. Will get back here again when I have done this. Don't be surprised if Christmas comes and goes before I get my act together :( Writing up is the boring bit.
Best wishes,
Edwina
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Edwina
I am so glad that the marriage cert has given you the proof you needed.
It was a great 'hunt' and I so enjoyed it! Have fun putting it all together. ;D
deb :)
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Hello Deb and Trev
Deb Sheldon is my uncle i was with him today
i talked with my grandad Dennis last night and he told me and my dad about his dad George Alfred whittle, he did stay with cousens in islington he and his brother Len both went to school there while the rest of the family were on the road, and aparently he was a good scholler and a good swimmer he used to swim across the canal and pinch monkey nuts from the barges going by in Islington cannel.
And Trevor my grandad told me that his dads cousens from Fulham used to come and visit him at Putney fair every year when he was young and they some times used to help them mind the rides and stalls.
So we are related, its how we are related that we must work out, grandad said its very similar how you also had a girl in the family that died before her time, his sister Joyce died when she was 24, the picture you have is of George Alfred Whittle senior is from the Worlds Fair news paper, if he is your great grandad then that would mean he had a son before he married Lavinia.
My grandad wondered if your great grandad was George Alfred senior's brother we still dont know how many siblings he had ?
Maybe he had an older brother ?
We know that our great grandad was the oldest member of his family or we think we do ?
But like you said your nan and grandad both remember helping out at the fair, only your grandad would of grown up as a Whittle, so maybe it was on a visit to Putney Fair.
Deb your part in this with the old history is interesting, a few years ago my grandad was selling a trayler and a showman from up north came down to buy it , his name was alf Whittle and there were more of them up there, we wondered if maybe some of the Whittles from the other end of the Cannel joined the buisness ?
Its interesting how barges on the cannels are pained and lined out just like fairground equipment,
The missing link maybe
Oh and grandad said George Alfred Whittle senior was a great carpenter as well as blacksmith and engeneer.
He was the great seed that started us all in the Fairground , he would work for farmers doing there blacksmith work etc as long as his fair could open on their land while he was doing it, thats how the Whittles got so many places to open at.
lets all keep digging
this is fun
lloyd
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Dear All
As a granddaughter of James Hickey, daughter of James Hickey (son) all of the James Hickey & Sons of Richmond I am sorry to say that your Whittle family is not the same as my grandmother's (Rebecca Whittle).
Hickey's used Traction Engines for heavy haulage and there are still some around today.
They may well have known you family given they repaired boilers and that there was a permanent fair on Kew Green, Richmond, Surrey.
My cousin and grandson of Rebecca Whittle through her first child and marriage to Henry Bradley (she never did marry James Hickey) tels of his Uncle William (Hickey son no 3) knowing fairground people and taking him to the fair.
My Whittles came from Suffolk.
Whittle is a northern name and it is a fairly common name in the north.
My unce had steram boats on the river thames - use for pleasure and if it needed steam or moving the Hickey's were there.
My great claim to fame is that my grandfather James Hickey helped to build Tower Bridge, cutting rivet holes by hand and still more to investigate....
Nic talking to you and I hope this has helped you sort out some of your connections.
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I cannot believe there are so many Whittle relatives out there, George Alfred Whittle seems to be a distant cousin, of mine, his father George Whittle born 30/01/1831 in Lowermore Worcester married to Emma Alloway born 25/12/1867 was my 3 x G Grandfather's (John Whittle born Aug 1811) brother. I hope this makes sense it is all new to me. These details have only recently been passed to me by my later father's (George James Whittle) family, the details include maiden names of some of the females who have married into the Whittle family since 1773 (Roe, Smith, Stokes, Alloway, Bosley, Priddey, Knight to Lavinia Smith). Also males who have married Whittle females including Spence and Attwood. The family seem to originate in Bromsgrove in 1773 but move to Egham in Surrey, Windsor in Berkshire, Woking and Barnet Fair Hertfordshire before the last couple of generations make it to Birmingham where we are now. If anyone has any further information I would be grateful to hear it. I am told that our a ancestors were boat people and connected with the fair I would love to know more about this.
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Hello, Egypt. This is good! I shall have to get my brain back into gear now, because I have not looked at these WHITTLES for a couple of years now. This thread was fantastic and helped me find out so much about all these people for my husband. I did say I would enter it all up onto a tree, but still have not done so. The George WHITTLE / Emma ALLOWAY connection is definitely my husband's line. They were his great-grandparents.
Best wishes,
Edwina
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Edwina
If you have any information regarding the Whittle line this would be appreciated.
Best Wishes
Egypt
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OK, Egypt. Will now get motivated and organise the material. Will PM you when I've done it. Might take me a week perhaps to slot it in alongside everything else?? Will get back to you.
Edwina
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Hello
I am new to this site but I was searching my family history and came across this written on this site by TJW in July 2008
I have some other newspaper cuttings......The death of my great grandfather George Alfred in 1942 and another cutting about the wedding of Mr. Herbert Turner to Miss Violet Whittle, second daughter of Mr. and Mrs. G. A. Whittle the well known show people of Blackwater in 1933. Gifts included a Musquash coat and a Wolsley Hornet car.
I am the granddaughter of Mr Herbert Turner and Miss Violet Whittle. They were cousins and had two sons, William Herbert and Edward Arthur. I am Edward's daughter - whom they called Arthur since birth.
My father knows loads about the whittles and I think is still in contact with a few of them. We have lots of photographs of my grandmother at the coconut shy and other stalls. My grandfather famously claimed that he lent Billy Butlin £200 to start Butlins - he has passed away so we don't know if its true but its a great story!
I will question my father and try to find out more.
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Little Whittle & TJW: Duchie Whittle was my grandmother, her real name was Violet Whittle. My father Edward Arthur Turner is still in touch with Gerald Whittle.
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Hello E Turner
I am the grandson of George Alfred Whittle and son of Dennis Whittle my son is Little Whittle.
I remember my Dad taking me to your familys brakers in Woking, when I was a little boy.
I hope you are all well.
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my name is George Alfred Whittle, son of Lewis William Whittle. I am second son of him and Emily Ivy Whittle maiden name Pharo. There date of births are Lewis William Whittle is 6.9.1898 Emily Whittle is 12. 9. 1901. My first cousin is Dennis Gerald Billy Arthur John Whittle.
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hi my name is john whittle.
my granddad was george whittle.
he was part of the people you refer fairground people.
my grans name was jane they both lived in weybridge surrey.
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dont know a Jane Whittle , where did they live.
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I am a relative of John Davis Whittle of Weymouth/Dorset area (b. 1846). Does this tie in with anyone?
Many Thanks
Amy
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dont think so but have you got any more info to help me connect .
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Hello there,
I notice several people have mentioned George and Jane Whittle (nee Sedgwick), who are my great-great grandparents. George died in 1944. He was a 'Miller Oil Mill' in 1901 and a general labourer in 1924.
Jane Sedgwick married him in 1902 in Walton-on-Thames and they had about 12 children, including those mentioned in this topic Thomas William Whittle (1908-1974) and my great grandfather George Thomas Whittle (1902-1992).
Jane died in 1979 aged 96; I will post a picture of her once my internet works again.
Some people have mentioned that these people are connected to the Fairground Whittle's, but I can't prove or disprove this.
There are two coincidences: George Thomas Whittle was a boilermaker. His father was born in Putney, which has been mentioned before.
Is there any connection; or should I start a new topic about George and Jane?
CVS
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Back again.
I promised a photo of Jane Whittle (1883-1979), wife of George Whittle (died 1944).
Not sure if she is definitely connected to the fairground, but she has been mentioned here a couple of times.
She lived in Walton-on-Thames (Chertsey, Weybridge Union, Surrey).
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Sorry back again.
So many people have mentioned George and Jane (Sedgwick) Whittle that I have decided to start a new topic called "George and Jane Whittle of Surrey."
Hopefully we can share our information etc.
I believe these people are descendants of George and Jane just like me:
hi my name is john whittle.
my granddad was george whittle.
he was part of the people you refer fairground people.
my grans name was jane they both lived in weybridge surrey.
Hi
sorry i've been gone so long, i have found out my grandfather was married twice, first to Alice Agnis Cheeseman then to Mary Ann Scally born Rosscommon Ireland (my grandmother)
My grandfather Thomas William Whittle's mother was Jane Sedgewick later Jane Whittle (my sister is named after her). My father and aunt believe my great grandfather was either William or George. Problem is with that era you never knew your grandparents that well to know their full names i suppose. Hope this helps
Perry Whittle
I'm sure there were more... MissChampers?
I'm not sure if they're related to the fairground, so not to muddle it up, there's a new topic.
Thanks
CVS :)
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Hi. My Grandfather was George Thomas Whittle who married Betsy Jane (nee Williams). My Great Grandfather and Grandmother were George Thomas Whittle snr and Jane (nee Sedgewick.) who lived in Radnor Road, Weybridge - I remember visiting as a child.
Betsy and George had 8 children in total and they are listed on this site. My father is Lionel, we have just started to look into the Whittle history and found this site. Very interesting, I am sure we will be able to contribute some information.
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Hi Shelley Teres
Just to say, It's great you found this site and I also hope we can collaborate.
However, I fear this is getting away from the meaning of this thread and George and Jane weren't the 'Fairground Connection,' so I've sent you a personal message.
How about we collaborate here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=530065.msg3845260
I'm very exited to here from you
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Hello all
My grandad was George Alfred Whittle he was a showman he lived with his family in Blackwater
He was sent with his brother to live with his cousins in Islington so he could go to school, its sead they used to swim in the canel there (must be a connection to past family history) he told me that his cousins from Fulham would come and visit his family when the opened with the fair each year at Richmond (must be a connection with the boiler makers).
I was sent to boarding school in yateley where my teacher (who was from Weybridge) told me I must be one of the Whittles from weybridge (another connection).
We all come from George Alfred Whittle and Lavina Smith who met in Uxbridge and married, George coming from Canal people and Lavina coming from half Showman and half Gypsies (as I am Told), their marriage and life started the Whittle family Fairground as George being a great tradesman would work for ladowners doing blacksmirth and repair work in exchange for his family having a fair on the land.
Typical male Whittle christian names are John, Lewis, Alfred, and George, if you have any of these names in your family history your probably a descendant.
Many of the Smith family are also still Showman
traveling in the South of England
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Okay, well this is what I have:
George Whittle - born 1902 in Weybridge - a boilermaker. Lived in Weybridge.
He had brothers with first/second names John and Alfred.
It seems like Perry - a descendant of George's brother Thomas, has suggested the families are connected.
I can't find a connection. I believe George's father was another George Whittle - the brother of Rebecca Whittle - who has been mentioned before. She lived in Richmond with a boilermaker.
But that family can be quite certainly traced to Suffolk labourers....
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Morning
Maybe so, however I think your best look to the Fulham and Richmond connections as that appears to be the part of the family who settled down long ago.
like I have said before My Dad has also confirmed that the South London coucsins visited when we were in the area (Richmond)
There were also a couple who retired to the Isle of Wight and lived at Wooton Bridge.
Your familey have the right christian names for Whittles not forgetting the rest of the familey lived around vaginia Water, chertsey and Blackwater post war times, and at Blackwater after.
More digging is needed for you as I think your familey fractured off not long after the Lavina Smith days
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Hello Wayne
This is very interesting; as you say more digging is needed.
I thought that George Whittle (1911 census says born circa 1880 in Putney) was the son of Elijah and Sarah Whittle (both born Suffolk, died Richmond).
But there are just too many coincidences with the fairground family to be ignored.
I'll read over all these posts and see if there might be a connection.
If the fairground family (Lavinia Smith) can be traced to Chertsey then that would be enough to convince me.
Any suggestions would be welcome.
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Hi
Can anyone find George Whittle, husband of Lavinia in the 1911 census?
In 1911 my ancestor George Whittle was 31 years old.
In 1901 Lavinia's husband George Whittle was 21 years old.
Maybe the same person? I don't know.
When did Lavinia die? Is it possible they divorced or split up? It's not unheard of.
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George and Lavinia married in 1889
There are many Georges and George Alfreds
His farther was also George Whittle a boatman
So you see another son of the first George could of named his son George after his farther, and so on so forth
Boiler knowledge and skills would have probably come from the traction engines that were used to haul the Fairgroung equipment.
Thank god I'm called Wayne!
Although theres nothing stopping my boys from calling their sons George Alfred
Also in answer to George Alfred the 4th, your grandad Lewis was the brother who went to stay with the Whittles in Islington to go to school with my grandad George Alfred Whittle commonly known as Alf Whittle, his wife was sybil
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The problem I have is that George and Lavinia had a son George Whittle, born in about 1891.
My George Thomas Whittle was born in 1902. So they can't be brothers - although if he was known as 'Alf' maybe they had another son called George who they really called George.
Is that possible?
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No his name was George Alfred
his letters always said G.A Whittle
what about if his farthers other son had a son called George?
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Just Tthinking this was maybe why he was known as Alf to save confusion
It does not state anywhere that George and Lavinia did not travel with Georges Brothers?
Running a steam Fair would have taken many hands, My dad has told me how all the chaps who worked for them would turn up at the beginning of the season with their bags of possesions to live in the kip truck for the summer.
I am sure the boiler thing is firm comformation of association, we probaly did fraction off over the Years just as my family did after George Alfred died.
Everything was sold due to arguments.
But the ladies who started this thread were right we did once have a traveling Empire and other future showland Empires were grown from the remnants of ours.
One of the things that always strikes me about our family is did the Fairground artwork come from the artwork on Canal Boats?
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This is what I know:
The Whittle's were canal boatmen originally from Worcestershire. George Whittle (born George Alloway) married Lavinia Smith, the daughter of a steam circus proprieter. This created the 'Smith and Whittle' show, which included roundabouts, swings and chariot racing. George and Lavinia had several children including George Alfred - known as Alf.
They had a daughter named Chelmsford Daisy in 1904 in Walton-on-Thames.
George Thomas Whittle was born in 1902 in Walton-on-Thames. His sister's middle name was Daisy.
Surely the boilermakers of Weybridge fit in.
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But did George who married Lavina have a Brother who got married and called his son George?
The female names you mention are not from my grandad Alf's immediate family but they could be from his first cousins
I think we need to look back a bit further
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Of course George (died 1941) could have had a nephew named George Whittle, born about 1880 in Putney.
However, earlier on this thread there's a post about the Hickey family. It includes a George Whittle, born 1877 and the son of Elijah Whittle.
But that would mean there's no connection.
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G A Whittle snr
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Hello all
anther George Alfred Whittle snr picture
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My grandad G A Whittle jnr
On hi way to the USA
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my Great grandmother Lavinia
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My grandad and grandmother Sybil with my Mcowen
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Grandad
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all the family
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all in the joint
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more
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My Grandma Sybil
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Both Stanly Whittle
the one who with my Grandad stayed at Islington with his cousins as a boy
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My grandad in the Army and jane Botton (first cousin) Grandma and unkle Alfie Whittle in grandads Joint
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family
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very old
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Those sure are amazing photos
Thanks Wayne for sharing them
Just to think, they may be great uncles and cousins...
I have read a book which includes this excerpt by a daughter of George and Jane (Segdwick) Whittle [when asked what her father did]: He had to make the roads, he came here from Cambridge with his father in a horse and cart to help them make the roads in Weybridge.
Horse and cart is a connection, perhaps? Judging by his age this could be sometime around 1887-1893.
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I thought I'd add a photo as well, the daughter of George and Jane Sedgwick. Rose.
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I have put these on to preserve the images as soon they will be too old to see, got many more, I just thought it would be nice to see some of the people that have been talked about over the past pages and years.
Every picture tells a story
first is Whittle family at Uncle Alfie@s Wedding
second is Family sitting on the rails at Epsom in the dip, a charter fair that went on for centuries but was stopped by the Council illegally
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The family and friends having a break on a summer day 1947 after building up, starting with Joyce top right then a lady? then G A Whittle jnr
The girls minding the roll downs Jane Botton to the left Joyce to the right
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1800 riders
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Thanks again for sharing them,
It's very important to preserve the past, it's a shame to see photo's that are ripped or faded. It's great to get the faces to the names and stories discussed here by various relatives.
I'd say that there is a resemblance to the Weybridge Whittle's but maybe that's just because I want there to be...
I wonder who the 'Unknown Whittle's' are, a story to be told with that photo, I wonder why the young man has a walking stick.
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In the big picture with all the Whittle family, do you know who the man second from far right (leaning against the pole) is?
He looks alot like George Thomas Whittle.
Just wondering...
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Hello
if its the chap with the bowler type hat its Stanley whittle, thats my Grandads brother, his son is John Whittle
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Aunt Sybil and family and friends
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Family together
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more
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a Whittle traction engine
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one is Nelly soon to be Botton, not sure of the other
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sorry this is the one that's Nelly, I'm not sure who all the others are, one is obviously Dafney, still none the wiser
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Whittles and Bottons and friends
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One is the Bottons, Jimmy snr and family, I am not sure who the others are, any clues?
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Whittles and Smiths the family's joined by G A Whittle and Lavina's union
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One is my Grandma with baby Billy Lee jnr, the other has Aunt Sybi and next to her is a Smith, I know this because who ever it is, is the image of my cousin Charles Smith son of Billy Smith
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The next three pictures are of my Aunt Joyce, my Dads sister who died in a tragic traffic accident aged 24
I never met her as I was born years after.
She is on quite a few of the group pictures, she looks and was a very popular kind and lovely person
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gone but not forgotten
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The first picture is at my uncle Alfie's wedding to Aunt Rosie Crick
The second is my Dad his brother Alfie and their cousin Mr Jones
I have many pictures, its funny because the big ones wont load onto this site but all the little ones (that I thought were a stupid small size) do.
If you know any of the faces get in touch, the Whittle-Botton connection comes from my Grandmother Sybil and her sister Nelly, as Nelly married Jimmy Botton and moved to Skegness and started the Pleasure Beach Amusements
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Hopefully the others come back and see these amazing photos.
Could I please add:
Anyone related to George Whittle who married Jane Sedgwick, please PM me. A rule on Rootschat has it that you must make 3 posts before being allowed to PM.
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Picture 43... the man with a hat near the photo of Nellie Botton... do you know who that is? Again I can see a resemblance.
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Hi
I think he is a Whittle, I will have to check
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Hi
Some more questions:
Back to page 13 and the big picture of all the family together, do you know who the man third from left in second row (with tie and balding hair) is? He looks just like Stanley Whittle in the same photo.
In the wedding photos of Alfie to Rosie, there is a lady in a hat with her hand on the shoulder of another woman. The lady in the hat and the short lady sitting just left and in front of her look alot like my aunt Whittle, I'm just wondering if they're Whittle's?
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page 13 Stanley Whittle is far right 2nd from the end in a kd bowler type hat
The lady in the hat is nelly Botton sister of my Grandmother, the lady in front is Drewy Stevens
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Thank you.
So Drewy Stevens isn't related? Even though she looks alot alike, I guess coincedences do happen.
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Hi
Drewy was one of the UK's longest living downs syndrome females
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Hello All
Just had some info, if you go back to page 14 look at reply 134, the picture at the bottom listed as unknown Whittles
in the picture the man on the right is George Alfred senior, the man on the left is Billy Smith senior his brother in-law and partner in the Smith's and Whittles Fair.
I still cannot work out if the lady on the right is Lavinia because the lady on the left looks more like her in her later life pictures, if the lady on the right is Lavinia she lost a lot of weight when she got old.
I cannot work out who the baby is either, but that is G A Whittle sitting on the right
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Hi all sorry i have been away for so long. I am attempting to locate pictures of my grandafather Tom Whittle, maybe his face will ring a bell with some of you
Regards
Perry Whittle
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Hi Wayne
thank you for the photographs, especially the photo of my grandmother Jane Sedgewick who was well known around the Weybridge parish as aunt Jane. She even had her own seat in the snug bar of the Crown pub, Thames St, Weybridge :)
If you have any further pictures or information around the family i would be most grateful if you would communicate them to me. Please feel free to send a PM
Regards
Desmond Whittle
PS
Pezzars father and Son of Thomas William Whittle
John Whittle in this same thread is my younger brother
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Hello Desmond
There is a mountain of picture still to get through, I was always aware of a Whittles of Weybridge connection since attending boarding school in Yateley, where on arrival one of the teachers (who lived in Weybridge) asked me if I was one of the Whittles from Weybridge?
Its amazing we never met any as we only lived in Chertsey a mile or two up the Road.
If I come across any old pictures I will post them as this is the best way to preserve them.
Best regards
Wayne
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??? Hi Deb, I am des whittle of Weybridge Surrey - Perry Whittle.s dad. The one thing that is for sure is that there have been more Georges in the Whittle family than there have been in the Royal Family. I knew from what my mother told me that thyere was a connection between the Weybridge Whittle's and the fairground Whittle's. The Whittle's seem to be an aloof family only ever meeting at funerals, high days and holidays so to speak. My father was Tom Whittle and he had brothers name: Jim, George, Albert, Bob and Charlie. There were two daughters called Phyllis and Dorothy -I think I've got them all. Bob as far as I know was taken P.O.W at Dunkirk and I should imagine many of the fairground Whittle's were called to arms during world warII. I will be interested in how you progress with searching the family background. Best Wishes. Des Whittle
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Hi Des. My dad is Lionel, son of George Whittle (born/lived in Radnor Rd, Weybridge) and Jane Williams, great grandson of Jane Sedgwick and George Whittle. I went to Thames Valley Grammar school and a year or two higher than me was a Whittle (can't remember her Christian name now), I always denied being related to her, but I guess we most probably were related, at that age you only think about your immediate family. George and Jane had Iris, Joan, Betty, Lionel, George (died within a few weeks of birth) George (birth name Jack, but known as George) (died in 2006) Nadine, Shirley and Christine. Sadly only Lionel, Nadine, Iris and Shirley are still living. There certainly seem to have been a lot of Whittles around Weybridge.
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I have a newspaper cutting which says that George Alfred Whittle passed away on February 9th 1941
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Hi Edwina
I have been looking into the Hickey family of Richmond...
I found this;
In 1901 there is a James Hickey, 41 boiler maker b Leeds married to a Rebecca, 37 b Suffolk, They have the following children:
Amanda BRADLEY 18
Albert HICKEY 13
James HICKEY 11
William HICKEY 9
Bernard HICKEY 7
all living in Richmond Surrey
In 1891 they have a Kate Whittle, 20 living with them
I found this marriage;
Henry Inkerman BRADLEY = Rebecca WHITTLE in 1882
I have not been able to find her marriage to James Hickey the boiler maker yet.
deb :)
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Hello Deb, James Hickey aged 11 was my grandfather, my mothers father. My mother did not raise me so I have little knowledge of the Hickey family, please can you give me any information you may have found. Best wishes Jackie.
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Hello to any Whittles.
Would any of you know a Stanley J Davis (Davies), who worked as a fairground assistant around 1946-48? Is he still alive? Any information gratefully received.
He possibly worked for a time in the Hampshire area.
Many thanks.
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If still alive, he cannot be discussed on RootsChat.
You need to be sure he is no longer alive before we can proceed.
Sorry about this, but it is RootsChat policy.
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Hello Trevor
my Dad has spoken to my grandad
The picture you have is of my dads great grandad
He had seven children
Stanely John Whittle...who may be your grandad as he married twice, his first wife was a Studd, he married again and had a so called Vincent.
stanley was the youngest son
joe whittle
lewis Whittle
and alf Whittle ( G A Whittle ) my dads grandad
the sisters were
venie, she married Jack Davis ( Uncle Jack )
Lovie, she married Len Pharoh
and
duchie ( her nick name as she spoke gibberish as a child, double douch )
We dont know her real name, but she married one of the Turner brothers from woking.
so you see Stanly whittle must of been your grandad.
he had two children in his first marrige
John Whittle, who had four kids john , Gary, lisa and Lyn
Gerald Whittle was his other son he had two boys Paul and dad cant remember his brothers name, but he aint done bad.
so Trevour who are you ?
who was your dad ?
Hi, I’m new to here trying to help my stepdad find out about his family! My stepdad is Harry Whittle born 1940's. His dad is Stanley Whittle and he said jihn and Gerald are his half brothers- he is the son of Stanley’s 2nd wife Annie Miller!