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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: Billy Anderson on Friday 18 July 08 13:01 BST (UK)
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Hi My 2x Great grandfather John Black was a Blacksmith from the isle of Lismore.
He was born in 1860 at Clockalea which I found with the help of Donald Black on Lismore.
John Blacks parents were Donald Black( Slate quarrier) and Catherine McIntyre
he moved to Glasgow pre 1886 were he drowned in 1896.
Looking for the marriage details of his parents and deaths and any pos. siblings
any help would be most appreciated, Billy.
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Hi Billy
John Black son of Donald Black and Catherine McIntyre appears to have had at least the following siblings:
Ann b 1 Sep 1835 Lismore
Chirsty b 2 Jan 1838 Lismore
Mary b 23 Sep 1844 Lismore
this is from the IGI and they are extracted entries.
I can't readily see a marriage for their parents. You may have more luck searching for the marriage on SPeople.
Joy
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Hi Joy, thanks for the info and speed of reply, I will check out the details, many thanks, Billy.
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Hi Billy
You're welcome.
I thought I would check the 1841 census before I go to bed but it doesn't help much
1841 Census Argyll Civil parish Lismore parish no: 525
Donald Black 30 joiner b Argyll
Arch Black 60 cotton [that's all that's written] b Argyll
Catherine Black 30 b Argyll
It looks like the right family but there should be at least 2 children. Perhaps they were away visiting or perhaps they died.
What do you think?
I'll have a look at the 1851 census for you in the morning.
Joy
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Hi Joy, many thanks for more info,like me you must be on Oz time, many thanks Billy.
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Hi Billy
Sorry for the delay.
1851 Census 62 Franklin St Calton Glasgow
Parish No: 622
Civil Parish Calton
ED 21A
H'Hold Schedule 75
Roll CSSCT 1851_147
Donald Black Head 37 labourer in colliery b ca 1814 Lismore Argyll
Catherine wife 35 b ca 1816 b Ardnamurchan Argyll
Mary Dau 6 scholar b ca 1845 b Glasgow
Donald McPhail 26 lodger labourer in Dye works b ca 1825 Ardnamurchan Argyll
Duncan McPhail 28 lodger labourer in Dye works b ca 1823 Ardnamurchan Argyll
I'll have a look at the 1861 census next
Joy :)
Edit Sorry Billy do you already have all the census information for Donald and Catherine?
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Hi Joy,
Thank you so much for the work you have done.
I had nothing on Donald and Catherine.
Their son John my 2x Great grandfather was born in Lismore in 1860 and he was married to Catherine Donald from Enzie in 1883 in Glasgow his address given as 161 Houston st.
I should also try and find them on the 1881 census to see if they are in Lismore or Glasgow.
I thought they were still on Lismore and John left for Glasgow.
If I can find them on Lismore in the 1861 census then I think they could be my Blacks. I supose it is pos. they moved back and forth between Glasgow and Lismore. much thanks for all your work.
Billy.
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Hi Billy
The list of siblings I gave you for John Black definitely had as parents Donald Black and Catherine McIntyre. I'm almost sure that the 1851 census I gave you is the correct family. Unless there were two Donald Blacks who married two Catherine McIntyres which is of course possible.
However as you're not sure, I'll continue looking. I'll have a look at the 1861 census next.
joy
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Hi Billy
I can't find John Black with parents Donald and Catherine in 1861 census in Lismore or Glasgow. It is more than possible that I've missed them. Any other way that I can help? I also have the '71, '81, '91 & 1901 census if you would like any other lookups.
Joy
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Hi Joy,
Thanks for all the work you have done, I think I have to look at John Blacks wedding to Catherine Donald in 1883 in Glasgow then look at his birth in Lismore in 1860.
At the moment I only have details but I will order the certs.
If the Catherine you found is his mother then she would have to be about 49 when he was born, which I know is pos.
The scots sequence of naming children creating several first children all having the grandfathers name has caught me out in the past that is why I am weary of taking the Blacks you have found as mine at first hand.
He accidentally drowned off the steam Clipper the Cumbrae at Glasgow Pier in 1898.
I have a copy of the Maritime death cert from the records office but it has almost no info.
Do you think that there would be another death cert provided that may mention his parents, and his pos. burial.
many thanks Billy.
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Hi Billy
I just had a quick look on SP to see if there was another certificate for John's death in 1898, but I couldn't see one. I'll have a better look tomorrow.
If you care to PM me your emails address I'll send you the marriage certificate. I don't think it will tell you anything more unless you didn't know the name of the witnesses. I'll look up his birth [John] and see if I can hunt down death certs for Donald and Catherine.
Joy
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Hi,
John Black died 7 Dec 1895.
John Black, Blacksmith - Journeyman, Married to Catherine Donald
Found 4.30pm December Seventh 1895 In the River Clyde at Berth No. 30. Usual residence 7 Houston Street, Glasgow
Male 42 years
Father Donald Black, Labourer (Deceased)
Mother Catherine Black, MS McIntyre (Deceased)
Cause of death: Drowning as cert by John Hardie MD
Informant: Duncan Black, brother of 46 Park Street, Kinning Park
Billy, if you PM me your email address I can send you a copy of this certificate.
Working backwards from the info in the death cert, in 1861 we have the following:
28 Mill Street, Rothesay, Bute
Donald Black, 55, Head, Labourer, born Lismore, Argyll
Catherine Black, 48, Wife born Lismore
Christina Black, 22, Daur, Dressmaker, born Lismore
Alex Black, 12, Son, Scholar, born Lismore
Duncan Black, 10, Son, Scholar, born Lismore
John Black, 8, Son, Scholar, born Lismore
Debbie
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1841 Census
Balevolan, Lismore, Argyll
Anne Black, F, 65, born Argyll
Anne Black, F, 30 born Argyll
Archibald Black, M, 1, born Argyll
Catherine Black, F, 30, born Argyll
Christy Black, F, 3, born Argyll
Donald Black, M, 35, born Argyll
Duncan Black, M, 75, born Argyll, occ:Tenant
Duncan Black, M, 25, born Argyll
Flory Black, F, 50, born Argyll, occ: Ind
Duncan McCaig, M, 10, born Argyll, occ: Hew
Catherine McIntyre, F, 15, born Argyll, occ: Female Servant
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1851 Census
Balevolan, Lismore and Appin, Argyll
Donald Black, 49, Head, born Lismore, Farmer of Hills
Cathrin Black, 42, Wife, born Lismore
Christis Black, 13, Daur, born Lismore
Archb Black, 11, Son, born Lismore, Scholar
Dugald Black, 9, Son, born Lismore, Scholar
Mary Black, 6, Daur, born Lismore, Scholar
Alexr Black, 3, Son, born Lismore
Dan Black, 6 months, Son, born Lismore
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Well done Walcha72 - I was just typing all that out and you beat me to it
Joy :)
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Debbie and Joy,
Thank you both so much for the hard work you both have done on my behalf I will send both of you a PM.
thanks again,Billy.
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Was in Edinburgh GRO today. Checked Old Parish Records. Apparently, John Black born 14 June 1853 in Laggan, Lismore and Appin district. No birth entry for year 1860. Parents: Donald Black & Catherine McIntyre. Actual wording of birth record is as follows, "John son of Donald Black & Catherine McIntyre Laggan". Short and to the point. Could not find any record of a marriage for John's parents (even allowing for quite a wide year margin). This is what I did find out though.
Donald Black (1801-1891). Parents: Duncan & Ann Black (no maiden name given).
Catherine McIntyre (c. 1810-1887). Parents: Dugald & Katherine.
Doddie
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Hi Doddie,
Thanks for the look up at the Edinburgh GRO.
I think that may be my John Black you found as he drowned in 1895 aged 42 making his birth 1853 not as I thought 1860.
The other names certainly turn up on the census on previous posts for John Black, thanks again for your work and hopefully it did not disrupt you too much from your own research.
If you need any research done in Melbourne just let me know!, kind regards Billy.
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Hi all,
Was on the beautiful isle of Lismore between Oban and the Isle of Mull in July and found the grave stone of John Blacks Parents,Donald Black and Catherine McIntyre.
As previously recorded they resided on the isle of Bute and returned to the isle of Lismore.
Donald passed away on 14th Jan 1891 and Catherine passed away on 6th Jan 1887 Achnacroish Lismore there grave stone was erected by there daughter Ann.
Billy.
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Hi Billy,
Did you happen to run across a daughter of Donald and Catherine's named Agnes? My 3x great grandmother was Agnes Black, daughter of Donald Black and Catherine (McIntyre, I think!) born in 1840. She was married in 1868 in Glasgow but then her son Archibald was born in Argyll in 1883, so it leads me to believe she may be related to the people you are researching. :)
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Hi rebeccamary,
it is possible i found a Agnes Black in the 1851 census for Buteshire,Isle of Bute aged 11 and i have the rest of the family are on the isle of Lismore in 1851 .
In the 1861 census the family are in Rothsey,Isle of Bute but no Agnes and a gap between Christina aged 22 and Alex 12 so she could have been else were.
Do you have Agnes,s birth cert,probably have to prove that here mothers name was McIntyre to proceed,
My dads god mother/aunt was Agnes ,who,s mother was Catherine Black so it is possible,
Billy.
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Hi Billy,
Thanks for your reply! ;D
I don't have her birth certificate yet, but this is from her marriage certificate. I asked some other lovely people on here what they thought Catherine's maiden name was and they seem to agree that it's McIntyre. Do you know who was Agnes living with in the 1851 census? I can't seem to find record of her on Bute on FreeCEN or Scotlands People (but I've only started researching genealogy in the last few weeks, so my skills are less than ideal!).
Rebecca.
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Something to bear in mind is the use of common first name variants in Scotland. Agnes is a common variant of Ann/ Nancy. See this great site www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=agnes
Wondering whether Agnes showed as Ann in earlier years?
1841 has an Ann Black aged 3 in the household with a Dugald and Chirsty McIntyre at Salen, Lismore. Thinking this is mother Catherine's parents from what Billy mentioned earlier? This entry you can see on FreeCen.
1851 has an Anne Black, aged 12 born in Lismore working as a servant at Baligarve. You would need to look at the original image as the entry has not been fully transcribed and I can't see it on FreeCen.
Donald and Catherine (McIntyre) did have a daughter Ann going by this index FS entry here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYK5-16T
Monica :)
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Rebecca, who did Agnes marry in 1868 in Glasgow? Was it James McKechnie? Have you got her with family in later censuses after her marriage?
Likely entry for her already in Glasgow by 1861:
Agnes Black, 23, Cook b. Lismore. Working at the Baxter household in 25 Blythswood Sq, Glasgow.
Monica
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Wow! :o
Thank you for looking into that, Monica, and for all that information. It is super helpful/interesting! Those all seem to match up quite perfectly with Agnes, and I'd never even thought to look up name variants, this will definitely help me with future research :)
I have purchased the 1851 census you found in Baligrave which lists an Ann Black however I can't make out her birthplace. I've attached it in case anyone can help with deciphering it :)
Yes, she married James McKechnie in 1868. I'm having trouble locating her in later census' though, including her son, Archibald McKechnie. :-\
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I have struggled too to find Agnes after 1868 and her marriage.
There looks to be a son John born in 1868 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQRQ-GXN
Also, a first born Archibald https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F797-G4R He must have died young for the name to have been re-used in 1883 (have you got this birth cert?).
Also saw this further option from 1851 for Agnes:
Duncan Mcintyre 29 ship agent b. Lismore
Dugald Mcintyre 1 son b. Glasgow
Agnes Black 15 niece b. Lismore
Jean Robinson 29 servant
Address: Lyndoch Place No 2
Monica
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There is an entry in 1881 for a 10yr old John McKechnie at the Industrial School in Rothesay, Bute (27 Mill Street). This John is showing as born in Glasgow.
Monica
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:) This is one of the links we were looking for to connect your Agnes to the family of Donald and Catherine Black. From 1881, there is this entry:
Donald Black 79 Lime Stone Miner b. Lismore
Catherine Black 72 b. Lismore
John Black 26 son Engine Smith b. Lismore
John McKechnie 11 grandson b. Glasgow
Archibald McKechnie 8 grandson b. Glasgow
Address: Auchnacroish Miner Ho, Lismore
Monica
PS: We can ignore the other 1881 entry for a John McKechnie showing in Rothesay I think ;)
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I think I may have the 1883 birth date wrong for Archibald, apologies! (I'm new to this so still find dealing with a lot of dates quite overwhelming).
I just re-checked Archibald's 1903 marriage cert which lists his age as 31, so it's likely the same Archibald you found born in 1871. It also lists James as being deceased, but Agnes is still alive.
From the information you have gathered Archibald must have been born in Glasgow (as this makes more sense), and John may be his older brother. Thank you so much for that :)
The record of Agnes you found is really interesting, I wonder why she was moved around so much? ???
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Oh wow, wow.
I know I sound like a broken record, but thank you :)
That's very interesting, but once again, where is Agnes?! She seems rather elusive :)
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At that time, young people, children really, were sent to work outside the home for financial reasons not surprisingly.
Agnes may or may not have remarried. Given that both John and Archibald show with Agnes' parents in 1881, maybe James died around this time and Agnes had to work to maintain herself and contribute to the boys' upbringing?
Have to switch off now (real life takes over in the morning!).
Monica :)
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Learning all this has been so exciting. Thanks :)
Have a great day!
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Just an observation from an earlier post but having been scrolling & reading I have forgotten who's post so quote;
"1841 Census Argyll Civil parish Lismore parish no: 525
Donald Black 30 joiner b Argyll
Arch Black 60 cotton [that's all that's written] b Argyll
Catherine Black 30 b Argyll"
Likely Arch Black possibly father, something to think about as I see from reading the rest of the thread that the name Archibald does pop up?
Annie
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I have purchased the 1851 census you found in Baligrave which lists an Ann Black however I can't make out her birthplace. I've attached it in case anyone can help with deciphering it :)
Yes, she married James McKechnie in 1868. I'm having trouble locating her in later census' though, including her son, Archibald McKechnie. :-\
Hi RM,
I think original 1851 entry looks like "Ard....." maybe ending in 'ie' which could be of course 'ey' written how it sounded? but I can't see a place name that fits in Lismore, sorry.
You could try the "Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition" board/forum on here, just a thought?
Annie
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Likely Arch Black possibly father, something to think about as I see from reading the rest of the thread that the name Archibald does pop up?
Annie, from Doddies' post much earlier on we had parents for Donald and Catherine from their death certs as:
Donald Black (1801-1891). Parents: Duncan & Ann Black (no maiden name given).
Catherine McIntyre (c. 1810-1887). Parents: Dugald & Katherine.
This fitted with the 1841 census posted by Debbie also earlier:
1841 Census
Balevolan, Lismore, Argyll
Anne Black, F, 65, born Argyll
Anne Black, F, 30 born Argyll
Archibald Black, M, 1, born Argyll
Catherine Black, F, 30, born Argyll
Christy Black, F, 3, born Argyll
Donald Black, M, 35, born Argyll
Duncan Black, M, 75, born Argyll, occ:Tenant
Duncan Black, M, 25, born Argyll
Flory Black, F, 50, born Argyll, occ: Ind
Duncan McCaig, M, 10, born Argyll, occ: Hew
Catherine McIntyre, F, 15, born Argyll, occ: Female Servant
Guess for you Rebecca now would be good to find out what happened to James McKechnie and Agnes Black :) Agnes seems to be the forgotten one from this family from what I can see on other's family trees. There is still confusion of course as to whether there were actually daughters born Ann and Agnes.
Billy, you mentioned on the monumental inscription for Donald and Catherine a reference to daughter Ann?
Monica
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Possible entry for Agnes/Ann in Glasgow for 1881:
Ann McKechnie 45 laundress b. Lismore Argyll
Address: 15 Braid St, Glasgow/Milton
The original entry would show whether this Ann showed as a widow or not (unfortunately the trasncript does not have this info).
This entry might link to this one in 1891:
Agnes McKechnie 53 formerly laundress b. Lismore Argyll
Address: Cotters House, Lismore
Monica
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Likely Arch Black possibly father, something to think about as I see from reading the rest of the thread that the name Archibald does pop up?
Annie, from Doddies' post much earlier on we had parents for Donald and Catherine from their death certs as:
Donald Black (1801-1891). Parents: Duncan & Ann Black (no maiden name given).
Catherine McIntyre (c. 1810-1887). Parents: Dugald & Katherine.
This fitted with the 1841 census posted by Debbie also earlier:
1841 Census
Balevolan, Lismore, Argyll
Anne Black, F, 65, born Argyll
Anne Black, F, 30 born Argyll
Archibald Black, M, 1, born Argyll
Catherine Black, F, 30, born Argyll
Christy Black, F, 3, born Argyll
Donald Black, M, 35, born Argyll
Duncan Black, M, 75, born Argyll, occ:Tenant
Duncan Black, M, 25, born Argyll
Flory Black, F, 50, born Argyll, occ: Ind
Duncan McCaig, M, 10, born Argyll, occ: Hew
Catherine McIntyre, F, 15, born Argyll, occ: Female Servant
Guess for you Rebecca now would be good to find out what happened to James McKechnie and Agnes Black :) Agnes seems to be the forgotten one from this family from what I can see on other's family trees. There is still confusion of course as to whether there were actually daughters born Ann and Agnes.
Billy, you mentioned on the monumental inscription for Donald and Catherine a reference to daughter Ann?
Monica
I photographed the monumental inscription for Donald and Catherine but having problems down loading them onto this page,i think i have to reduce there size.
it was their daughter Anne who paced the stone in the Lismore churchyard.
She was farming at Achnacroish farm ,Lismore.
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Billy, is this Donald and daughter Ann in 1891? He died that year from what Debbie posted before didn't he?
Donald Black 82 Crofter & Roadman b. Lismore
Ann Black 48 b. Glenorchey
Alexander McDonald 16 servant b. Glasgow
Address: Killean Crofters House, Lismore
Monica
ADDED: Maybe not if he died on 14 JAN 1891 • Achnacraish, Lismore (from others' family trees).
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Hi all,
Was on the beautiful isle of Lismore between Oban and the Isle of Mull in July and found the grave stone of John Blacks Parents,Donald Black and Catherine McIntyre.
As previously recorded they resided on the isle of Bute and returned to the isle of Lismore.
Donald passed away on 14th Jan 1891 and Catherine passed away on 6th Jan 1887 Achnacroish Lismore there grave stone was erected by there daughter Ann.
Billy.
This is the inscription on the grave stone.
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Thanks, Billy :) Not much detail there to try and clear up the issue of Ann and Agnes...
Would be good to find death certs for one or the other! The new SP search engine gets in the way though :-\
Monica
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Rebecca, you have details that Archibald was married before he married in 1903? He married in 1896 to a Jessie Milne in the County of Haddington (East Lothian). This looks to be them in 1901:
Archibald Mckechnie 29 Coachman Domestic b. Glasgow
Janet Mckechnie 27 b. Haddington
Jessie M Mckechnie 4 b. Currie, Midlothian
Agnes B Mckechnie 3 b. Brechin, Forfarshire (registered as Agnes Black McKechnie)
Elizabeth M Mckechnie 11 Months b. Kirkmichael, dumfriesshire
Address: Front Lodge, Kirkmichael, Dumfriesshire
Monica
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WOW :o
Sorry for the late reply, have been catching up on all that has been posted since yesterday.
I've just double checked Archibald's marriage certificate and - not sure how I missed this - it does indeed say widower. Wow, so he had 3 children before having my great grandmother! Thanks so much for that find, Monica.
I'm definitely going to try and get to the bottom of Agnes and James. You mention the SP search gets in the way, what do you mean? Every time I've attempted to find Agnes/Ann I never get results, is there a trick to it? :-\ I also can't find either of them on findagrave.
I've just sat down to have a go at finding them, so will post if I make any headway :)
Thanks again!
Rebecca.
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I also just had a question that one of you lovely people might be able to answer. Years ago my Granny spoke about how her "Grandpa Archie" (the Archibald we've been researching), purchased a section of a cemetery for his descendants. Does anyone know how I might go about finding information about that? Unfortunately Granny has alzheimers so haven't been able to get much out of her :(
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Hi Rebecca,
i would try and locate the nearest graveyard to were he lived and contact the council,
Billy.
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Rebecca, you have the marriage cert for the marriage for Agnes Black and James McKechnie don't you from 1868? What was James' occupation and age, parents?
I have found the 1871 census entry yesterday. Not showing on the transcript I use but on SP. It shows:
Agnes McKechnie 31 stoker's wife husband at sea b. Lismore
John McKechnie 3 b. Glasgow
Elizabeth McKechnie 44 mother in law b. Kilbride Argyll
17 Brown Street Glasgow
There are also 1 boarder and 4 lodgers in the household.
There is the possibility that James Mckechnie could have died at sea? Likely between 1871 and 1881?
You mention the SP search gets in the way, what do you mean? Every time I've attempted to find Agnes/Ann I never get results, is there a trick to it? :-\ I also can't find either of them on findagrave.
There have been major system changes to SP in recent weeks due to a change of company running the IT interface. It remains after the relaunch much more limited to search with :'( Previously, we could have searched for Agnes' death using both her maiden and married surnames and found her death entry relatively easily. You can't do that now. There are also other limiters to search fields which are very restrictive and don't easily provide the results index we had before. I couldn't see a death for Agnes so far under McKechnie in Argyll. Nor could I see an obvious entry for her on the index for the 1911 census.
If you haven't already, might be worth you searching for Archibald and family in the 1911 census. This would let you firm up his details further and give you the extended list of children from his marriages.
Findagrave is not that useful/complete really for Scotland. As suggested by Billy, best to start by looking around the area Archibald died and make local enquiries.
Monica :)
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Hello everyone,
I have enjoyed reading this thread so much It started this afternoon when my Uncle John asked me to see if 19 Balevolan Farm was still on the Isle of Lismore. Its possible the spelling is incorrect as so far I have not found it. Seems my 3x grandparents were Donald and Catherine Black, we have a Donald, Alex, John and Mary so I am hoping I am on the right track. My uncle lost his son in November of last year he was only 50, his wishes were to have his ashes scattered in Scotland, due to the information we have through research we thought Isle of Lismore would be a fitting place to rest. Does anyone have information on Balevolan Farm, I can find similar in Tiree but we have thought for many years it was on Lismore....Amy help would be appreciated,,,Thank you Julie
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Hi Julie
Welcome to RootsChat :)
More work needed but there seems to a refence to a BALEVEOLAN Farm https://lismore.cylex-uk.co.uk/map/baleveolan%20farm.html Also with a postcode - Baleveolan, Lismore, Oban PA34 5UG
At the same postcode is 'The Bunkhouse' with lots of building permission apps popping up. Some photos here www.rootschat.com/links/01lp8/ (link shrunk).
Monica
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Thank you v much :)
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Lismore featured on BBC Alba a couple of weeks ago. One auld guy, asked by Heather Dewar if he had ever been to the mainland said he attended school in Oban & that was as far as he got! ;D
Skoosh.
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Hi Julie,
I grew up as a child on the Island of Lismore, and what a wonderful childhood it was. When I left in 1971, a Duncan McDougall farmed Baleveolan, he died in the 1990's, and yes it is still there today, not far from the shop/post office in the middle of the island.
Lismore has its own website, http://www.isleoflismore.com/ you should contact them, they are very helpful and will advise you.
I remember travelling by boat to Oban High School every Monday morning, in all weathers, and returning on a Friday evening, staying in lodgings all week. Now the scholars have the choice of returning home every night.
I have been back for many holidays, as my parents and grandparents are buried on the island.
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Thank you for your replys. I have been on the Lismore Website so this is a great start :)