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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Shropshire => Topic started by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 12:28 BST (UK)
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Hi, according to the 1901 census, a relative was born in Wyrvil, Salop.
Has anyone idea what it is supposed to say?
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Hello Debbie :D Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Can you tell us the lady's name - then we can see whether we can find her in previous census and perhaps make sense of this entry then?
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It could read as "Wyevil" and possibly should be "Wyevale"
???????
Suz
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Those glasses come up trumps again Suz ;D
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Hi Debbie :)
this is all the places here in Shropshire that I can think of offhand that begin with W.
Walcot, Shropshire
Walford, Shropshire
Welshampton
West Felton
Westbury, Shropshire
Weston Lullingfields
Weston Rhyn
Weston-under-Redcastle
Whitcott Keysett
Whittington, Shropshire
Whixall
Wistanstow
Withington, Shropshire
Wollaston, Shropshire
Woofferton
Woolstaston
Woore
Worthen
Wrockwardine
Wrockwardine Wood
Wroxeter
Wykey
Although I dont think its any of these :(
Pete :) :)
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She's Sarah A. Edwards: RG13/2886/132/5 in 1901
Birthplace per 1891 looks like Salop, Otallon??? RG12/3263/74/10
Anna ???
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Sarah's birthplace is given as Warfield, Shropshire in 1881, so perhaps Wyrvil was a phonetic attempt at Warfield.
1881: RG11/2733/24/16
Edited to add: I think that should be Worfield, Shropshire (Warfield is in Berkshire).
Anna
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Ok. Being a newbie to this research, now I'm getting confused.
How did you manage to get her birth details from her married name???? ??? ??? ??? ???
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I'm just tracing back through the censuses in which she's married!
Presumably this is her marriage ref:
Edward William EDWARDS
Sarah Ann THOMAS
Sep 1872 Bridgnorth 6a 998
Anna
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No, his first name is William. As for the marriage, I have no idea when or where. I don't think he has a second name.
He was born in Manchester, but doing a search for 1850ish, gives far too many results to pin one down.
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No, his first name is William. As for the marriage, I have no idea when or where. I don't think he has a second name.
He was born in Manchester, but doing a search for 1850ish, gives far too many results to pin one down.
He's Edward W. Edwards, aged 31, in 1881, birthplace Walsall, Staffs
Also Edward W. Edwards, aged 41, in 1891, birthplace Walsall, Staffs.
References as given above.
Anna
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This is all so confusing. I have his sons' marriage certificate here and his name is down as William.
I know people use their middle names but I thought on official documents they are supposed to use the birth name?
Presumably, I am wrong.
You put me to shame.
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Debbie - it may well be that his son having always known him to be William, didn't realise his first name was Edward :D
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Certainly not trying to put anyone to shame! Just trying to help.
People did use middle names, and switch between first and middle, much more in the 19th century than we are familiar with these days. In giving information to the Registrar the son might well have given the name his father preferred to use or was accustomed to using. The more research you do, the more you will see this - sometimes we think our ancestors were deliberately trying to confuse us ;)
The 1871 census confirms the existence of a 16 yr old Sarah Ann THOMAS b Worfield, Shropshire (living in Worfield) - see the marriage ref I gave you above.
1871: RG10/2745/60/17
Anna
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Posible births
Births Mar 1850
Edwards Edward William Walsall 17 265
Births Mar 1855
Thomas Sarah Ann Bridgnorth 6a 550
Pete :) :)
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I think you must have better resources than me too.
Because I looked up Edwards without any first names on the 1881 census and hardly got any results.
I've been using freecen and freebmd.
With limited money to spend on the 1901 website too, I get lost and frustrated.
Never mind.
Thank you for your help.
I shall re-trace my steps.
Thanks again.
You are all stars * * * * *
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Debbie - many of us on here have subs to the larger sites and so access to all the census - and we're here to help ;D
Post what you know about the family and we'll see if we can sort you out :D
What do you know about the children - the son whose marriage cert. you have would be a good place to start - tell us about him.....
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GEORGE EDWARDS (AGE 26) MARRIED NELLIE BARNETT (AGE 22) ON 23RD DECEMBER 1911 AT THE REGISTER OFFICE IN THE DISTRICT OF BIRMINGHAM.
THEY BOTH LIVED AT:
1 BACK 2
INGLEBY STREET
BIRMINGHAM.
GEORGES FATHER IS DOWN AS WILLIAM EDWARDS
NELLIES FATHER IS DOWN AS SAMUEL ISAAC (DECEASED)
THERE IS A NOTE ON THE SIDE SAYING THE FOLLOWING CORRECTIONS WERE MADE....
"COLUMN 3 - CHANGED FROM 23 TO 22"
"COLUMN 7 - FOR SAMUEL ISAAC READ SAMUEL ISAAC BARNETT"
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So, if I was to ask my partner for a nice birthday present.
Which site would I want him to pay for so I can read all the censuses?
(Considering it's his name I'm tracing! ;) )
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So, if I was to ask my partner for a nice birthday present.
Which site would I want him to pay for so I can read all the censuses?
(Considering it's his name I'm tracing! ;) )
Different people have different preferences - as you will see from various threads here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,145.0.html
But if I could have only one subscription, it would be to Ancestry (www.ancestry.co.uk).
In fact I have both Ancestry and Findmypast (www.findmypast.com) - between them they provide a fantastic spectrum of resources. (NB - Findmypast doesn't yet have the 1851 census but does have passenger lists, some parish records and all sorts of other lovely stuff.)
Anna
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Hi - I have both Ancestry and Find my Past - for the same reasons as Anna gives - Ancestry is slightly easier to search, I find - but a lot more prone to mistranscription ;D
Now - on the marriage cert - what does it give as William, the father's, occupation ?
And - do you know where George might have been born ?
I've found a George b. 1885 Aston, Warks, father William..... need to know dad's occupation ;D
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The 1901 census sys that george was born in Manchester, which ties in with the little bit of info my partner gives me as on the same census is a brother called Eric.
Georges' occupation is iron stamper on the marriage certificate.
His father William (or as I now know Edward William) was a blacksmith. Which is confirmed on the 1901 census.
(Address is 6 Bevington Road, Aston Manor)
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OH - Manchester ;D Got them ;D
Do you want details of the 1891 and 1881 census?
I think the marriage found already is the right once - there is a neice named Fanny Thomas staying with them in 1881 :D So the birth regs. Pete found also look good ;D
Do you want me to see whether I can find Edward William and Sarah Ann with their parents ?
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Yes please and yes please! ;D
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Yes please and yes please! ;D
OK ;D ;D
1891: RG12. P. 3263 Fol. 74 Pg. 10
146b Cheetham Hill Rd, Cheetham, Manchester
EDWARDS
Edward W Head M 41 Shoeing smith B. Staff. Walsall
Sarah A Wife M 34 B. Salop, Otelan (?already queried) #
Samuel R Son 15 Apprentice B. Staffs Hednesford
Ada L M dau 10 B. Staffs. Longton
George Son 7 B. Manchester
Martha A Dau 2 B. Manchester
Visitors - George and Sarah Booth
Samuel R Edwards S 30 Gen Labourer
# Findmypast haven't attempted a transciption, just ? Salop :D
1881 census : RG11. P. 2733 Fol. 24 Pg. 16
133 Wood Street, Stoke on Trent
EDWARDS
Edward W head M 31 Blacksmith B. Walsall
Sarah A Wife M 26 B. Warfield, Salop
Samuel R Son 4 B. Hednesford, Staffs
Martha Dau 2 B. Longton, Staffs
Fanny Thomas Neice 6 B. Claverly, Salop
I'll see what I can find from before then....
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Travelled around a bit then!
You really are a star you know.
I take it you enjoy the research! :)
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I'm concerned in the discrepancy in Georges' age. From the information he seems to be born either 1884 or 1885
From his marriage certificate, being 26 in Dec 1911 would make his birth year 1885.
From the 1901 census, being aged 17 would make his birth year approx 1884 and the same for the 1891 census,
Unless his birthday happened to be the last week of December, considering he married 23rd Dec?
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Debbie - don't worry about the age difference! It was quite common for there to be a 1 or two year swing from census to census - maybe they weren't sure - maybe they forgot - 1 one year swing is nothing - believe me ! Look at his brother - Samuel - 4 in 1881 and 15 in 1891
And yes - I do enjoy and am having a ball here :D
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Both accounts make me feel better! :)
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Found another problem .....
1881 census - Martha Age 2 Born Longton
1901 census - Martha Age 12 Born Manchester
Is it possible the first one died and they had another child and named her after the first?
???
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Think you'll like this ;D
1871 census
Edward W Edwards aged 21, living in Cound, Salop, working as blacksmiths assistant. Worked for blacksmith Humphrey Roberts.
1861 census: RG9. P. 2165 Fol. 85 Pg. 19
23 Branston Street, Birmingham
EDWARDS
Richard Head M 39 Tailor B. Shrewsbury
Sarah Wife M 38 B. Shrewsbury
Sarah Dau Un 18 Steel Pan Maker B. Shrewsbury
Edward W Son 10 Brass Dresser B. Dovenedge, Staffs
Mary E Dau 8 B. Birmingham
Eleanor Dau 5 B. Birmingham
Martha A Dau 2 B. Birmingham
Samuel R Son 1 month B. Birmingham(this is probably the visitor in 1891, aged 30 ?)
1851 census: HO107. P. 2023 Fol. 24. Pg. 40
Pool Street, Walsall Foreign
EDWARDS
Richard Head M 29 Tailor B. Shrewsbury
Sarah Wife M 28 B. Shrewsbury
Sarah Dau 8 B. Shrewsbury
Richard Morgan Son 6 B. Shrewsbury
Edward William Son 1 B. Walsall
and the bonus ball ;D
1841 census : HO107 P. 927/13 Fol. 38 Pg. 19
Church Street, St Mary's Shrewsbury
EDWARDS
Edward 55 Shoemaker
Sarah 44
Richard 20 Tailors apprentice
Elizabeth 15
Thomas 25 Painter & Glazier
Catherine 20
On the IGI : Richard Edwards b. 7 July 1821 Baptised 26 Aug 1821 St Marys, Shrewsbury. Parent Edward Edwards and Sarah.
Other children baptised St. Mary's that time, Parents Edward and Sarah:
Thomas 1814; Martha 1817; Edward 1819; William 1820; John 1824; Elizabeth 1826.
So now you have George's father = Edward W Edwards; George's grandfather = Richard Edwards; George's Great grandfather = Edward Edwards
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Found another problem .....
1881 census - Martha Age 2 Born Longton
1901 census - Martha Age 12 Born Manchester
Is it possible the first one died and they had another child and named her after the first?
???
Possible - I'll take another look and come back.......
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WOW! You truly are amazing! :) :) :)
Thank you so very very much!
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Here's the full entry for the household of Sarah Ann THOMAS in 1871 which I mentioned earlier:
1871 census
RG10/2745/60/17
Hallow, Worfield, Shropshire
Martha Thomas Head W 60 Household work Shropshire Nean
William do Son Unm 34 Ag lab Shropshire Worfield
Henry do Son Unm 21 Ag lab Shropshire Worfield
Sarah A do Daur Unm 16 Domestic servant (out of employ) Shropshire Worfield
Anna :)
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Found another problem .....
1881 census - Martha Age 2 Born Longton
1901 census - Martha Age 12 Born Manchester
Is it possible the first one died and they had another child and named her after the first?
???
Possible - I'll take another look and come back.......
Well, this is based only on the index, and certificates would be needed to prove, but
Martha Edwards B 1879 died Q2. 1781 Stoke on Trent District
Martha Edwards born Q2. 1889 Manchester
So yes, it's possible that's what happened - quite common to re-use the name.
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I'll say it again, you're amazing!
The details for the Martha you just gave me, I assume that's Sarahs mum?
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Here's the full entry for the household of Sarah Ann THOMAS in 1871 which I mentioned earlier:
1871 census
RG10/2745/60/17
Hallow, Worfield, Shropshire
Martha Thomas Head W 60 Household work Shropshire Nean
William do Son Unm 34 Ag lab Shropshire Worfield
Henry do Son Unm 21 Ag lab Shropshire Worfield
Sarah A do Daur Unm 16 Domestic servant (out of employ) Shropshire Worfield
Anna :)
Anna - are you going to carry on with Sarah's line - don't want to be tripping over each other - and I'll look at Richard ?
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Yes, I can do Sarah and her THOMAS line.
Just before I do that - on the subject of little Martha Edwards...
the Jun 1889 Manchester birth may not be hers, as there's a matching death in the same quarter (Death: Martha EDWARDS aged 0, Jun 1889 Manchester 8d 319).
Anna
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I'll say it again, you're amazing!
The details for the Martha you just gave me, I assume that's Sarahs mum?
No - that's George's sister - but as Anna says - the Manchester birth may not be the one!
Added: there's a Martha b. Q2. 1890 Manchester - the 1891 says she's two, but maybe she was registered late, or they put 2 anyway ?
The re-using of the name was probably because Sarah's mother was Martha - I have a family in my tree who named 4 successive sons John after the grandfather as each one died very young :o
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God your fast!
lol
I'm still trying to write all the information down and get my head round it!
It's actually the Edwards line I'm trying to trace back as my partner refuses to accept the fact that Edwards is a Welsh name.
Keep telling him he's Welsh stock cos he's short and stocky!
;) ;D
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1861 census
RG9/1851/123/22
Hallow, Worfield, Shropshire
Samuel Thomas Head Mar 64 Ag lab Salop Heton (?)
Martha do Wife Mar 52 Housewife Salop Nensolliar [prob. shd be Neen Sollars]
William do Son Un 24 Ag lab Salop Worfield
George do Son Un 19 Ag lab Salop Worfield
Henry do Son 11 Scholar Salop Worfield
Sarah A. do Daur 6 Scholar Salop Worfield
Anna :)
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God your fast!
lol
I'm still trying to write all the information down and get my head round it!
It's actually the Edwards line I'm trying to trace back as my partner refuses to accept the fact that Edwards is a Welsh name.
Keep telling him he's Welsh stock cos he's short and stocky!
;) ;D
Thomas is a Welsh surname too! But if you're not interested in the Thomas line I will stop (?)
Anna
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God no, I find it amazing!
I'm tempted to give you the maternal side of his family to trace as been as you're enjoying it so much!
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1861 census
RG9/1851/123/22
Hallow, Worfield, Shropshire
Samuel Thomas Head Mar 64 Ag lab Salop Heton (?)
Martha do Wife Mar 52 Housewife Salop Nensolliar [prob. shd be Neen Sollars]
William do Son Un 24 Ag lab Salop Worfield
George do Son Un 19 Ag lab Salop Worfield
Henry do Son 11 Scholar Salop Worfield
Sarah A. do Daur 6 Scholar Salop Worfield
Anna :)
I have to say that I am a little suspicious of whether Sarah Ann was really a daughter of this couple given Martha's age (though she's only 60 rather than 62 in the 1871 census). Sometimes grandchildren, especially if illegitimate, were brought up by their grandparents as though they were children of the family. Pure speculation at the moment, though.
The IGI at www.familysearch.org has the following baptisms of children of Samuel and Martha THOMAS (NB as you may be aware the IGI is far from complete). These are all extracted from parish records:
Jane THOMAS 24 Dec 1829 Neen Savage, Shropshire
Willm. THOMAS abt 20 Sep 1835 Worfield, Shropshire
George THOMAS b 13 Oct 1840 bap 27 Dec 1840 Worfield, Shropshire
Ellen THOMAS b 27 Jun 1843 bap 30 Jul 1843 Worfield, Shropshire
Anna :)
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Marriage (also from IGI, extracted):
Samuel THOMAS
Martha BOWEN
19 Jul 1829 Neen Savage, Shropshire
(today is their 179th wedding anniversary :D)
Anna
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Here's another possible Welsh surname to add to the mix ;D
Based again on the IGI, there is a marriage in St. Chads Shrewsbury 15 Nov 1811 between Edward Edwards and Sarah Morgan.
There is also one bap for a child of Edward and Sarah at St. Chads - Mary in 1812. None others at St Chads - others as previously mentioned found at St Mary's.
A plus towards this being the right marriage is the name of Richard's eldest son - Richard Morgan Edwards.
Anna - what do you think here ?
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Anyway, here's the THOMAS family in 1851 (Martha not at home, for some reason):
1851 census
HO107/1986/525/9
Worfield, Shropshire
Samuel THOMAS Head M 48 Labourer ag Salop Marvill [prob shd be Morville]
Jane MOSELEY (?) Daur M 21 Dressmaker Salop Neen Savage
William THOMAS Son U 15 Scholar Salop Worfield
George THOMAS Son 10 Salop Worfield
Helen THOMAS Daur 7 Salop Worfield [this will be the child baptised as Ellen in 1843]
Martha THOMAS Daur 4 Salop Worfield
Henry THOMAS Son 1 Salop Worfield
Anna :)
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Here's another possible Welsh surname to add to the mix ;D
Based again on the IGI, there is a marriage in St. Chads Shrewsbury 15 Nov 1811 between Edward Edwards and Sarah Morgan.
There is also one bap for a child of Edward and Sarah at St. Chads - Mary in 1812. None others at St Chads - others as previously mentioned found at St Mary's.
A plus towards this being the right marriage is the name of Richard's eldest son - Richard Morgan Edwards.
Anna - what do you think here ?
Yes, I think that looks good - particularly in view of the later use of Morgan as a family middle name.
Anna :)
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1871 census
Edward W Edwards aged 21, living in Cound, Salop, working as blacksmiths assistant. Worked for blacksmith Humphrey Roberts.
If your Edward was living in Cound in 1871, then he would have been next door neighbours to my paternal line line of Edwards, As far back as I have got so far I originate from Cound, !808 marriage George Edwards, Sarah Rowe,
Pete :) :)
P.S. I have traced Nellie I think, but wasent sure were you was bothered with her
P.P.S Glad you joined ;D ;D ;D
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It's toooooo much to take in!
I'm sat here just shaking my head in amazement!
Yes, I picked up on the Morgan thing too.
Err, what else, oh yes, neighbours! What a coincidence!
As for Nellie, I got as far as siblings being Ernest and William, and parents Samuel Isaac Barnett marrying Annie James in Leek Dec 1896.
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Anyway, here's the THOMAS family in 1851 (Martha not at home, for some reason):
1851 census
HO107/1986/525/9
Worfield, Shropshire
Samuel THOMAS Head M 48 Labourer ag Salop Marvill [prob shd be Morville]
Jane MOSELEY (?) Daur M 21 Dressmaker Salop Neen Savage
William THOMAS Son U 15 Scholar Salop Worfield
George THOMAS Son 10 Salop Worfield
Helen THOMAS Daur 7 Salop Worfield [this will be the child baptised as Ellen in 1843]
Martha THOMAS Daur 4 Salop Worfield
Henry THOMAS Son 1 Salop Worfield
Anna :)
The missing Martha is misenumerated as THOMASSON in 1851, visiting what are presumably relatives of some sort given that BOWEN was Martha's name at marriage (see earlier):
1851 census
HO107/1985/193/4
Neen Savage, Shropshire
Baveney Wood
Drusilla BOWEN Head Widow 69 Nurse Salop Kinlet
Richard do Son Unmar 44 Bricklayer Salop Neen Savage
Martha THOMASSON Visitor Married 42 Labourer Wife Salop Neen Savage
John do Visitor 12 Labourer Son Salop Worville [not sure whether this shd be Morville or Worfield]
Anna :)
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This looks like Martha's baptism (again, IGI extracted):
Martha BOWEN
Christening 7 May 1809 Neen Savage, Shropshire
daughter of William BOWEN and Drusilla
This fits well with Martha's age in the 1851 and 1861 censuses, and suggests that the widowed Drusilla BOWEN whom she is visiting in 1851 is in fact her mother.
It also means (depending on the respective birthdates) that she would have been getting on for 46 at the birth of Sarah Ann - a very late lamb, but not impossible even before the advent of fertility treatment.
Anna
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Marriage (from Shropshire Parish & Probate Records):
William BOWEN
Drusilla MONK
27 Aug 1805
at Neen Savage, Kinlet, Stokesay or Wistanstow (can't tell which)
by George Moultrie, Officiating Minister
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1841 census
HO107/922 bk 17 folio 5 p5
Neen Savage, Shropshire
Baveney Wood
William BOWEN 60 Bricklayer
Drusilla do 60
Richard do 35 Bricklayer
Ellen do 20
Josia do 15
all born in county (NB ages over 15 are rounded down to the nearest 5 in the 1841 census).
Amma
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Children of William and Drusilla BOWEN:
RICHARD BOWEN
Gender: Male
Christening: 07 JUN 1806 Neen Savage, Shropshire
MARTHA BOWEN
Gender: Female
Christening: 07 MAY 1809 Neen Savage, Shropshire
PRISCILLA BOWEN
Gender: Female
Christening: 21 JUL 1811 Neen Savage, Shropshire
WILLIAM HENRY BOWEN
Gender: Male
Christening: 17 MAR 1816 Neen Savage, Shropshire
JOSIAH BOWEN
Gender: Male
Christening: 20 JUL 1825 Neen Savage, Shropshire
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Marriage (from Shropshire Parish & Probate Records):
William BOWEN
Drusilla MONK
27 Aug 1805
at Neen Savage, Kinlet, Stokesay or Wistanstow (can't tell which)
by George Moultrie, Officiating Minister
This looks like Drusilla's baptism:
DRUCILLAH MONK
20 Jan 1782 Neen Savage, Shropshire
daughter of George MONK and Elizabeth
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Gotta go now. My own Mr Edwards is about to come in from work.
Will stay on this site though so I cn see what's what later.
Thank you all, for all your help.
Can't thank you enough!
:D
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I don't think I'm going to get beyond Edward and Sarah - there are a couple of baps for both names at both St Chads and St Mary's Shrewsbury between 1780 and 1790 but not enough is known to make a positive identifcation, I feel.
I would have expected one or other to have had a father Thomas, but can't find a suitable candidate on either side.
At the moment I can't see them in 1851; I'll look at the other children and see if that helps.
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Hi mum 44 :) :)
Welcome to the Edwards surname here in Shropshire ;D ;D ;D
Pete :)
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The only marriage that I can see at the moment between a Richard Edwards and a Sarah, between census 1841 and 1843 when Sarah was born, is at Madeley Q2. 1842, between a Richard and Sarah James.
This is not a million miles from Shrewsbury, where they both come from, but why not marry in Shrewsbury?
ADDED
Hello Pete - sorry, missed you. Edwards - yes, rather too many, me thinks!
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The only marriage that I can see at the moment between a Richard Edwards and a Sarah, between census 1841 and 1843 when Sarah was born, is at Madeley Q2. 1842, between a Richard and Sarah James.
This is not a million miles from Shrewsbury, where they both come from, but why not marry in Shrewsbury?
IGI has that marriage as having taken place at Little Wenlock, 3 Apr 1842.
Anna
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Yes, Anna, I have that - I'm leaning towards it being the one, because although there is a Sarah James in Madeley in 1841 of the right age, she would appear to have been married already with a couple of children.
I can't see another - the only other Richard Edwards / Sarah possibles was Q1. 1840 :(
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Ah Ha :D :D :D
Thought I'd see how they all were in 1871 - maybe an aged parent - couldn;t find them - BUT - Martha and Samuel (14 and 11) were in Shropshire with an aunt and uncle - James and Martha Steward. James born Radnor, Martha born Shrewsbury.
James Steward married Wellington 1858 - on the page, Martha James ;D
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On the IGI, extracted baptisms : Parents John James and Elizabeth
at Sr mary's, Shrewsbury
Sarah b. 25 Oct 1822 Ch. 17 Nov 1822
Martha B. 17 July 1825 Ch. 7 Aug 1825
others in age order:
William Ch. 11 May 1817
Anne Ch. 16 May 1819
Sarah
Martha
John B. 14 Mar 1825 Ch. 1 Apr 1827
David B. 24 Aug 1829 Ch. 20 Sept 1928
Charles B. 12 Jun 1831 Ch. 24 July 1831
Elizabeth B. 6 June 1833 Ch. 7 July 1833
Ellen B. 21 May 1836 Ch. 25 Sept 1936
1841 CENSUS: HO107 P. 927 /10 Fol. 6 Pg. 4
Simpsons Square, St. mary's Shrewsbury
JAMES
John 45 Brickmaker
Elizabeth 40
Ann Morris 20
Sarah 15
Martha 15
John 14
Charles 10
Ellen 5
Elizabeth 5 mth.
Henry Morris 20
Samuel Morris 7 days
All born county.
So - I think Richard Edwards married Sarah James in 1842 - but why at Wenlock, who knows ???