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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Shropshire => Topic started by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 12:28 BST (UK)

Title: WYRVIL?
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 12:28 BST (UK)
Hi, according to the 1901 census, a relative was born in Wyrvil, Salop.

Has anyone idea what it is supposed to say?
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 12:47 BST (UK)


Hello Debbie   :D   Welcome to Rootschat   ;D

Can you tell us the lady's name - then we can see whether we can find her in previous census and perhaps make sense of this entry then?
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: suzard on Saturday 19 July 08 12:49 BST (UK)
It could read as  "Wyevil" and possibly should be "Wyevale"
???????

Suz
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 12:57 BST (UK)


Those glasses come up trumps again Suz   ;D
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: pete edwards on Saturday 19 July 08 12:59 BST (UK)
Hi Debbie :)

this is all the places here in Shropshire that I can think of offhand that begin with W.

Walcot, Shropshire
Walford, Shropshire
Welshampton
West Felton
Westbury, Shropshire
Weston Lullingfields
Weston Rhyn
Weston-under-Redcastle
Whitcott Keysett
Whittington, Shropshire
Whixall
Wistanstow
Withington, Shropshire
Wollaston, Shropshire
Woofferton
Woolstaston
Woore
Worthen
Wrockwardine
Wrockwardine Wood
Wroxeter
Wykey

Although I dont think its any of these :(

Pete :) :)
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 13:06 BST (UK)
She's Sarah A. Edwards: RG13/2886/132/5 in 1901

Birthplace per 1891 looks like Salop, Otallon??? RG12/3263/74/10


Anna ???
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 13:11 BST (UK)
Sarah's birthplace is given as Warfield, Shropshire in 1881, so perhaps Wyrvil was a phonetic attempt at Warfield.

1881: RG11/2733/24/16


Edited to add: I think that should be Worfield, Shropshire (Warfield is in Berkshire).

Anna
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 13:17 BST (UK)
Ok. Being a newbie to this research, now I'm getting confused.
How did you manage to get her birth details from her married name???? ??? ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 13:20 BST (UK)
I'm just tracing back through the censuses in which she's married!

Presumably this is her marriage ref:

Edward William EDWARDS
Sarah Ann THOMAS

Sep 1872 Bridgnorth 6a 998


Anna
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 13:24 BST (UK)
No, his first name is William. As for the marriage, I have no idea when or where. I don't think he has a second name.
He was born in Manchester, but doing a search for 1850ish, gives far too many results to pin one down.
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 13:27 BST (UK)
No, his first name is William. As for the marriage, I have no idea when or where. I don't think he has a second name.
He was born in Manchester, but doing a search for 1850ish, gives far too many results to pin one down.

He's Edward W. Edwards, aged 31, in 1881, birthplace Walsall, Staffs
Also Edward W. Edwards, aged 41, in 1891, birthplace Walsall, Staffs.

References as given above.


Anna
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 13:34 BST (UK)
This is all so confusing. I have his sons' marriage certificate here and his name is down as William.
I know people use their middle names but I thought on official documents they are supposed to use the birth name?
Presumably, I am wrong.
You put me to shame.
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 13:37 BST (UK)


Debbie - it may well be that his son having always known him to be William, didn't realise his first name was Edward  :D
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 13:41 BST (UK)
Certainly not trying to put anyone to shame! Just trying to help.

People did use middle names, and switch between first and middle, much more in the 19th century than we are familiar with these days.  In giving information to the Registrar the son might well have given the name his father preferred to use or was  accustomed to using.  The more research you do, the more you will see this - sometimes we think our ancestors were deliberately trying to confuse us ;)

The 1871 census confirms the existence of a 16 yr old Sarah Ann THOMAS b Worfield, Shropshire (living in Worfield) - see the marriage ref I gave you above.

1871:  RG10/2745/60/17

Anna
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: pete edwards on Saturday 19 July 08 13:46 BST (UK)
Posible births

Births Mar 1850

Edwards  Edward William    Walsall  17 265

Births Mar 1855

Thomas  Sarah Ann    Bridgnorth  6a 550

Pete :) :)
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 13:47 BST (UK)
I think you must have better resources than me too.
Because I looked up Edwards without any first names on the 1881 census and hardly got any results.
I've been using freecen and freebmd.
With limited money to spend on the 1901 website too, I get lost and frustrated.
Never mind.
Thank you for your help.
I shall re-trace my steps.
Thanks again.
You are all stars * * * * *
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 13:55 BST (UK)


Debbie  -  many of us on here have subs to the larger sites and so access to all the census - and we're here to help ;D

Post what you know about the family and we'll see if we can sort you out  :D

What do you know about the children - the son whose marriage cert. you have would be a good place to start - tell us about him.....
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 14:15 BST (UK)
GEORGE EDWARDS (AGE 26) MARRIED NELLIE BARNETT (AGE 22) ON 23RD DECEMBER 1911 AT THE REGISTER OFFICE IN THE DISTRICT OF BIRMINGHAM.
THEY BOTH LIVED AT:
1 BACK 2
INGLEBY STREET
BIRMINGHAM.
GEORGES FATHER IS DOWN AS WILLIAM EDWARDS
NELLIES FATHER IS DOWN AS SAMUEL ISAAC (DECEASED)
THERE IS A NOTE ON THE SIDE SAYING THE FOLLOWING CORRECTIONS WERE MADE....
"COLUMN 3 - CHANGED FROM 23 TO 22"
"COLUMN 7 - FOR SAMUEL ISAAC READ SAMUEL ISAAC BARNETT"
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 14:24 BST (UK)
So, if I was to ask my partner for a nice birthday present.
Which site would I want him to pay for so I can read all the censuses?
(Considering it's his name I'm tracing!  ;)  )
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 14:32 BST (UK)
So, if I was to ask my partner for a nice birthday present.
Which site would I want him to pay for so I can read all the censuses?
(Considering it's his name I'm tracing!  ;)  )

Different people have different preferences - as you will see from various threads here:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,145.0.html

But if I could have only one subscription, it would be to Ancestry (www.ancestry.co.uk).

In fact I have both Ancestry and Findmypast (www.findmypast.com) - between them they provide a fantastic spectrum of resources. (NB - Findmypast doesn't yet have the 1851 census but does have passenger lists, some parish records and all sorts of other lovely stuff.)

Anna
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 14:45 BST (UK)


Hi  - I have both Ancestry and Find my Past - for the same reasons as Anna gives - Ancestry is slightly easier to search, I find - but a lot more prone to mistranscription  ;D

Now - on the marriage cert - what does it give as William, the father's, occupation ?

And - do you know where George might have been born ?

I've found a George b. 1885 Aston, Warks, father William.....  need to know dad's occupation   ;D
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 14:53 BST (UK)
The 1901 census sys that george was born in Manchester, which ties in with the little bit of info my partner gives me as on the same census is a brother called Eric.
Georges' occupation is iron stamper on the marriage certificate.
His father William (or as I now know Edward William) was a blacksmith. Which is confirmed on the 1901 census.
(Address is 6 Bevington Road, Aston Manor)
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 15:16 BST (UK)


OH - Manchester   ;D   Got them   ;D

Do you want details of the 1891 and 1881 census?

I think the marriage found already is the right once - there is a neice named Fanny Thomas staying with them in 1881   :D    So the birth regs. Pete found also look good   ;D

Do you want me to see whether I can find Edward William and Sarah Ann with their parents ?
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 15:26 BST (UK)
Yes please and yes please!  ;D
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 15:49 BST (UK)
Yes please and yes please!  ;D

OK   ;D    ;D   

1891:   RG12.  P.  3263  Fol. 74  Pg. 10

146b Cheetham Hill Rd, Cheetham, Manchester

EDWARDS
Edward W  Head  M  41  Shoeing smith   B.  Staff. Walsall
Sarah A  Wife  M  34                                 B. Salop, Otelan (?already queried) #
Samuel R  Son  15     Apprentice               B.  Staffs Hednesford
Ada L M  dau  10                                       B. Staffs. Longton
George  Son  7                                          B. Manchester
Martha A  Dau  2                                       B. Manchester

Visitors - George and Sarah Booth
Samuel R Edwards  S  30  Gen Labourer

#  Findmypast haven't attempted a transciption, just ? Salop  :D

1881 census :  RG11.  P. 2733  Fol. 24  Pg. 16

133 Wood Street, Stoke on Trent

EDWARDS
Edward W  head  M  31  Blacksmith  B. Walsall
Sarah A  Wife  M  26                          B. Warfield, Salop
Samuel R  Son  4                               B.  Hednesford, Staffs
Martha  Dau  2                                  B. Longton, Staffs
Fanny Thomas  Neice  6                    B. Claverly, Salop

I'll see what I can find from before then....
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 16:01 BST (UK)
Travelled around a bit then!
You really are a star you know.
I take it you enjoy the research! :)
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 16:15 BST (UK)
I'm concerned in the discrepancy in Georges' age. From the information he seems to be born either 1884 or 1885
From his marriage certificate, being 26 in Dec 1911 would make his birth year 1885.
From the 1901 census, being aged 17 would make his birth year approx 1884 and the same for the 1891 census,
Unless his birthday happened to be the last week of December, considering he married 23rd Dec?
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 16:19 BST (UK)
Debbie  -  don't worry about the age difference!  It was quite common for there to  be a 1 or two year swing from census to census - maybe they weren't sure - maybe they forgot - 1 one year swing is nothing - believe me !  Look at his brother - Samuel - 4 in 1881 and 15 in 1891

And yes - I do enjoy and am having a ball here  :D

Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 16:39 BST (UK)
Both accounts make me feel better! :)
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 17:17 BST (UK)
Found another problem .....
1881 census - Martha  Age 2  Born Longton
1901 census - Martha  Age 12  Born Manchester

Is it possible the first one died and they had another child and named her after the first?
 ???
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 17:18 BST (UK)
Think you'll like this   ;D

1871 census
Edward W Edwards aged 21, living in Cound, Salop, working as blacksmiths assistant.  Worked for blacksmith Humphrey Roberts.

1861 census:    RG9. P. 2165  Fol. 85  Pg. 19
 23 Branston Street, Birmingham

EDWARDS
Richard  Head  M  39   Tailor              B.  Shrewsbury
Sarah  Wife  M  38                             B. Shrewsbury
Sarah  Dau  Un  18  Steel Pan Maker   B.  Shrewsbury
Edward W  Son  10  Brass Dresser      B. Dovenedge, Staffs
Mary E   Dau  8                                     B. Birmingham
Eleanor  Dau  5                                     B. Birmingham
Martha A  Dau  2                                  B. Birmingham
Samuel R  Son  1 month                       B. Birmingham(this is probably the visitor in 1891, aged 30 ?)

1851 census:  HO107.  P. 2023  Fol. 24.  Pg. 40

Pool Street, Walsall Foreign

EDWARDS
Richard  Head  M  29  Tailor   B.  Shrewsbury
Sarah  Wife  M  28                 B. Shrewsbury
Sarah  Dau  8                         B. Shrewsbury
Richard Morgan  Son  6          B.  Shrewsbury
Edward William  Son  1           B. Walsall


and the bonus ball   ;D

1841 census :  HO107  P. 927/13  Fol. 38  Pg. 19

Church Street, St Mary's Shrewsbury

EDWARDS
Edward  55    Shoemaker
Sarah   44
Richard  20   Tailors apprentice
Elizabeth  15
Thomas  25  Painter & Glazier
Catherine  20

On the IGI :  Richard Edwards  b. 7 July 1821  Baptised 26 Aug 1821  St Marys, Shrewsbury.  Parent Edward Edwards and Sarah.

Other children baptised St. Mary's that time, Parents Edward and Sarah:
Thomas  1814;  Martha  1817;  Edward  1819;  William  1820;  John  1824;  Elizabeth  1826.

So now you have George's father = Edward W Edwards;  George's grandfather = Richard Edwards;  George's Great grandfather  =  Edward Edwards

Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 17:19 BST (UK)
Found another problem .....
1881 census - Martha  Age 2  Born Longton
1901 census - Martha  Age 12  Born Manchester

Is it possible the first one died and they had another child and named her after the first?
 ???

Possible - I'll take another look and come back.......
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 17:23 BST (UK)
WOW! You truly are amazing!  :) :) :)
Thank you so very very much!
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 17:25 BST (UK)
Here's the full entry for the household of Sarah Ann THOMAS in 1871 which I mentioned earlier:


1871 census
RG10/2745/60/17
Hallow, Worfield, Shropshire


Martha Thomas Head W 60 Household work Shropshire Nean
William do Son Unm 34 Ag lab Shropshire Worfield
Henry do Son Unm 21 Ag lab Shropshire Worfield
Sarah A do Daur Unm 16 Domestic servant (out of employ) Shropshire Worfield

Anna :)
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 17:31 BST (UK)
Found another problem .....
1881 census - Martha  Age 2  Born Longton
1901 census - Martha  Age 12  Born Manchester

Is it possible the first one died and they had another child and named her after the first?
 ???

Possible - I'll take another look and come back.......

Well, this is based only on the index, and certificates would be needed to prove, but

Martha Edwards B 1879  died Q2. 1781 Stoke on Trent District

Martha Edwards  born Q2. 1889 Manchester

So yes, it's possible that's what happened - quite common to re-use the name.

Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 17:33 BST (UK)
I'll say it again, you're amazing!
The details for the Martha you just gave me, I assume that's Sarahs mum?
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 17:34 BST (UK)
Here's the full entry for the household of Sarah Ann THOMAS in 1871 which I mentioned earlier:


1871 census
RG10/2745/60/17
Hallow, Worfield, Shropshire


Martha Thomas Head W 60 Household work Shropshire Nean
William do Son Unm 34 Ag lab Shropshire Worfield
Henry do Son Unm 21 Ag lab Shropshire Worfield
Sarah A do Daur Unm 16 Domestic servant (out of employ) Shropshire Worfield

Anna :)

Anna - are you going to carry on with Sarah's line - don't want to be tripping over each other - and I'll look at Richard ?
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 17:39 BST (UK)
Yes, I can do Sarah and her THOMAS line.

Just before I do that - on the subject of little Martha Edwards...

the Jun 1889 Manchester birth may not be hers, as  there's a matching death in the same quarter (Death: Martha EDWARDS aged 0, Jun 1889 Manchester 8d 319).


Anna
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 17:45 BST (UK)
I'll say it again, you're amazing!
The details for the Martha you just gave me, I assume that's Sarahs mum?

No - that's George's sister - but as Anna says - the Manchester birth may not be the one!

Added:  there's a Martha b. Q2. 1890 Manchester - the 1891 says she's two, but maybe she was registered late, or they put 2 anyway ?

The re-using of the name was probably because Sarah's mother was Martha - I have a family in my tree who named 4 successive sons John after the grandfather as each one died very young  :o
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 17:46 BST (UK)
God your fast!
lol
I'm still trying to write all the information down and get my head round it!
It's actually the Edwards line I'm trying to trace back as my partner refuses to accept the fact that Edwards is a Welsh name.
Keep telling him he's Welsh stock cos he's short and stocky!
 ;) ;D
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 17:49 BST (UK)
1861 census
RG9/1851/123/22
Hallow, Worfield, Shropshire


Samuel Thomas Head Mar 64 Ag lab Salop Heton (?)
Martha do Wife Mar 52 Housewife Salop Nensolliar [prob. shd be Neen Sollars]
William do Son Un 24 Ag lab Salop Worfield
George do Son Un 19 Ag lab Salop Worfield
Henry do Son 11 Scholar Salop Worfield
Sarah A. do Daur 6 Scholar Salop Worfield

Anna :)
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 17:50 BST (UK)
God your fast!
lol
I'm still trying to write all the information down and get my head round it!
It's actually the Edwards line I'm trying to trace back as my partner refuses to accept the fact that Edwards is a Welsh name.
Keep telling him he's Welsh stock cos he's short and stocky!
 ;) ;D

Thomas is a Welsh surname too!  But if you're not interested in the Thomas line I will stop (?)

Anna
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 17:55 BST (UK)
God no, I find it amazing!
I'm tempted to give you the maternal side of his family to trace as been as you're enjoying it so much!
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 18:09 BST (UK)
1861 census
RG9/1851/123/22
Hallow, Worfield, Shropshire


Samuel Thomas Head Mar 64 Ag lab Salop Heton (?)
Martha do Wife Mar 52 Housewife Salop Nensolliar [prob. shd be Neen Sollars]
William do Son Un 24 Ag lab Salop Worfield
George do Son Un 19 Ag lab Salop Worfield
Henry do Son 11 Scholar Salop Worfield
Sarah A. do Daur 6 Scholar Salop Worfield

Anna :)

I have to say that I am a little suspicious of whether Sarah Ann was really a daughter of this couple given Martha's age (though she's only 60 rather than 62 in the 1871 census).  Sometimes grandchildren, especially if illegitimate, were brought up by their grandparents as though they were children of the family.  Pure speculation at the moment, though.

The IGI at www.familysearch.org has the following baptisms of children of Samuel and Martha THOMAS (NB as you may be aware the IGI is far from complete).  These are all extracted from parish records:

Jane THOMAS 24 Dec 1829 Neen Savage, Shropshire
Willm. THOMAS abt 20 Sep 1835 Worfield, Shropshire
George THOMAS b 13 Oct 1840 bap 27 Dec 1840 Worfield, Shropshire
Ellen THOMAS b 27 Jun 1843 bap 30 Jul 1843 Worfield, Shropshire


Anna :)
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 18:12 BST (UK)
Marriage (also from IGI, extracted):

Samuel THOMAS
Martha BOWEN

19 Jul 1829 Neen Savage, Shropshire

(today is their 179th wedding anniversary :D)


Anna
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 18:16 BST (UK)
Here's another possible Welsh surname to add to the mix   ;D

Based again on the IGI, there is a marriage in St. Chads Shrewsbury 15 Nov 1811 between Edward Edwards and Sarah Morgan.  

There is also one bap for a child of Edward and Sarah at St. Chads - Mary in 1812.  None others at St Chads - others as previously mentioned found at St Mary's.

A plus towards this being the right marriage is the name of Richard's eldest son - Richard Morgan Edwards.

Anna - what do you think here ?
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 18:22 BST (UK)
Anyway, here's the THOMAS family in 1851 (Martha not at home, for some reason):

1851 census
HO107/1986/525/9
Worfield, Shropshire


Samuel THOMAS Head M 48 Labourer ag Salop Marvill [prob shd be Morville]
Jane MOSELEY (?) Daur M 21 Dressmaker Salop Neen Savage
William THOMAS Son U 15 Scholar Salop Worfield
George THOMAS Son 10 Salop Worfield
Helen THOMAS Daur 7 Salop Worfield [this will be the child baptised as Ellen in 1843]
Martha THOMAS Daur 4 Salop Worfield
Henry THOMAS Son 1 Salop Worfield


Anna :)
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 18:24 BST (UK)
Here's another possible Welsh surname to add to the mix   ;D

Based again on the IGI, there is a marriage in St. Chads Shrewsbury 15 Nov 1811 between Edward Edwards and Sarah Morgan.  

There is also one bap for a child of Edward and Sarah at St. Chads - Mary in 1812.  None others at St Chads - others as previously mentioned found at St Mary's.

A plus towards this being the right marriage is the name of Richard's eldest son - Richard Morgan Edwards.

Anna - what do you think here ?

Yes, I think that looks good - particularly in view of the later use of Morgan as a family middle name.

Anna :)
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: pete edwards on Saturday 19 July 08 18:25 BST (UK)
1871 census
Edward W Edwards aged 21, living in Cound, Salop, working as blacksmiths assistant.  Worked for blacksmith Humphrey Roberts.


If your Edward was living in Cound in 1871, then he would have been next door neighbours to my paternal line line of Edwards, As far back as I have got so far I originate from Cound, !808 marriage George Edwards, Sarah Rowe,

Pete :) :)

P.S. I have traced Nellie I think, but wasent sure were you was bothered with her

P.P.S  Glad you joined ;D ;D ;D



Title: Re: WYRVIL?
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 18:31 BST (UK)
It's toooooo much to take in!
I'm sat here just shaking my head in amazement!
Yes, I picked up on the Morgan thing too.
Err, what else, oh yes, neighbours! What a coincidence!
As for Nellie, I got as far as siblings being Ernest and William, and parents Samuel Isaac Barnett marrying Annie James in Leek Dec 1896.
Title: Re: WYRVIL?????????
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 18:35 BST (UK)
Anyway, here's the THOMAS family in 1851 (Martha not at home, for some reason):

1851 census
HO107/1986/525/9
Worfield, Shropshire


Samuel THOMAS Head M 48 Labourer ag Salop Marvill [prob shd be Morville]
Jane MOSELEY (?) Daur M 21 Dressmaker Salop Neen Savage
William THOMAS Son U 15 Scholar Salop Worfield
George THOMAS Son 10 Salop Worfield
Helen THOMAS Daur 7 Salop Worfield [this will be the child baptised as Ellen in 1843]
Martha THOMAS Daur 4 Salop Worfield
Henry THOMAS Son 1 Salop Worfield


Anna :)

The missing Martha is misenumerated as THOMASSON in 1851, visiting what are presumably relatives of some sort given that BOWEN was Martha's name at marriage (see earlier):

1851 census
HO107/1985/193/4
Neen Savage, Shropshire
Baveney Wood


Drusilla BOWEN Head Widow 69 Nurse Salop Kinlet
Richard do Son Unmar 44 Bricklayer Salop Neen Savage
Martha THOMASSON Visitor Married 42 Labourer Wife Salop Neen Savage
John do Visitor 12 Labourer Son Salop Worville [not sure whether this shd be Morville or Worfield]

Anna :)
Title: Re: WYRVIL?
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 18:43 BST (UK)
This looks like Martha's baptism (again, IGI extracted):

Martha BOWEN

Christening 7 May 1809 Neen Savage, Shropshire

daughter of William BOWEN and Drusilla


This fits well with Martha's age in the 1851 and 1861 censuses, and suggests that the widowed Drusilla BOWEN whom she is visiting in 1851 is in fact her mother.

It also means (depending on the respective birthdates) that she would have been getting on for 46 at the birth of Sarah Ann - a very late lamb, but not impossible even before the advent of fertility treatment.

Anna
Title: Re: WYRVIL?
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 18:49 BST (UK)
Marriage (from Shropshire Parish & Probate Records):

William BOWEN
Drusilla MONK

27 Aug 1805


at Neen Savage, Kinlet, Stokesay or Wistanstow (can't tell which)

by George Moultrie, Officiating Minister
Title: Re: WYRVIL?
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 18:54 BST (UK)
1841 census
HO107/922 bk 17 folio 5 p5
Neen Savage, Shropshire
Baveney Wood


William BOWEN 60 Bricklayer
Drusilla do 60
Richard do 35 Bricklayer
Ellen do 20
Josia do 15

all born in county (NB ages over 15 are rounded down to the nearest 5 in the 1841 census).

Amma
Title: Re: WYRVIL?
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 19:00 BST (UK)
Children of William and Drusilla BOWEN:

 
RICHARD BOWEN
Gender: Male
Christening: 07 JUN 1806 Neen Savage, Shropshire

MARTHA BOWEN
Gender: Female
Christening: 07 MAY 1809 Neen Savage, Shropshire
 
PRISCILLA BOWEN
Gender: Female
Christening: 21 JUL 1811 Neen Savage, Shropshire

WILLIAM HENRY BOWEN
Gender: Male
Christening: 17 MAR 1816 Neen Savage, Shropshire

JOSIAH BOWEN
Gender: Male
Christening: 20 JUL 1825 Neen Savage, Shropshire
 

 
Title: Re: WYRVIL?
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 19:03 BST (UK)
Marriage (from Shropshire Parish & Probate Records):

William BOWEN
Drusilla MONK

27 Aug 1805


at Neen Savage, Kinlet, Stokesay or Wistanstow (can't tell which)

by George Moultrie, Officiating Minister


This looks like Drusilla's baptism:

DRUCILLAH MONK

20 Jan 1782 Neen Savage, Shropshire

daughter of George MONK and Elizabeth
Title: Re: WYRVIL?
Post by: DEBBIEWEBBY on Saturday 19 July 08 19:12 BST (UK)
Gotta go now. My own Mr Edwards is about to come in from work.
Will stay on this site though so I cn see what's what later.
Thank you all, for all your help.
Can't thank you enough!
 :D
Title: Re: WYRVIL?
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 19:22 BST (UK)

I don't think I'm going to get beyond Edward and Sarah - there are a couple of baps for both names at both St Chads and St Mary's Shrewsbury between 1780 and 1790 but not enough is known to make a positive identifcation, I feel.

I would have expected one or other to have had a father Thomas, but can't find a suitable candidate on either side.

At the moment I can't see them in 1851;  I'll look at the other children and see if that helps.

Title: Re: WYRVIL?
Post by: pete edwards on Saturday 19 July 08 19:29 BST (UK)
Hi mum 44 :) :)

Welcome to the Edwards surname here in Shropshire ;D ;D ;D

Pete :)
Title: Re: WYRVIL?
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 19:30 BST (UK)
The only marriage that I can see at the moment between a Richard Edwards and a Sarah, between census 1841 and 1843 when Sarah was born, is at Madeley Q2. 1842, between a Richard and Sarah James.

This is not a million miles from Shrewsbury, where they both come from, but  why not marry in Shrewsbury?

ADDED

Hello Pete - sorry, missed you.  Edwards - yes, rather too many, me thinks!
Title: Re: WYRVIL?
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 19 July 08 19:36 BST (UK)

The only marriage that I can see at the moment between a Richard Edwards and a Sarah, between census 1841 and 1843 when Sarah was born, is at Madeley Q2. 1842, between a Richard and Sarah James.

This is not a million miles from Shrewsbury, where they both come from, but  why not marry in Shrewsbury?

IGI has that marriage as having taken place at Little Wenlock, 3 Apr 1842.

Anna
Title: Re: WYRVIL?
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 19:48 BST (UK)


Yes, Anna, I have that - I'm leaning towards it being the one, because although there is a Sarah James in Madeley in 1841 of the right age, she would appear to have been married already with a couple of children.

I can't see another - the only other Richard Edwards / Sarah possibles was Q1. 1840  :(
Title: Re: WYRVIL?
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 20:03 BST (UK)


Ah Ha   :D  :D  :D

Thought I'd see how they all were in 1871  - maybe an aged parent - couldn;t find them - BUT  -  Martha and Samuel (14 and 11) were in Shropshire with an aunt and uncle -  James and Martha Steward.  James born Radnor, Martha born Shrewsbury.

James Steward married Wellington 1858 - on the page, Martha James    ;D

Title: Re: WYRVIL?
Post by: Mum44 on Saturday 19 July 08 20:54 BST (UK)


On the IGI, extracted baptisms :  Parents John James and Elizabeth
at Sr mary's, Shrewsbury

Sarah  b. 25 Oct 1822  Ch. 17 Nov 1822
Martha  B. 17 July 1825  Ch. 7 Aug 1825

others in age order:
William  Ch. 11 May 1817
Anne  Ch. 16 May 1819
Sarah
Martha
John  B. 14 Mar 1825 Ch. 1 Apr 1827
David B. 24 Aug 1829  Ch. 20 Sept 1928
Charles  B. 12 Jun 1831  Ch. 24 July 1831
Elizabeth  B. 6 June 1833 Ch. 7 July 1833
Ellen  B. 21 May 1836  Ch. 25 Sept 1936

1841 CENSUS:   HO107  P. 927 /10  Fol. 6 Pg. 4

Simpsons Square, St. mary's Shrewsbury

JAMES
John  45  Brickmaker
Elizabeth 40
Ann Morris  20
Sarah  15
Martha  15
John 14
Charles  10
Ellen  5
Elizabeth  5 mth.
Henry Morris  20
Samuel Morris  7 days

All born county.

So -  I think Richard Edwards married Sarah James in 1842 - but why at Wenlock, who knows  ???