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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: castlebob on Saturday 26 July 08 08:22 BST (UK)
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Hello All,
History records that 'Sim the Laird' of Whitaugh was a powerful reiver in the early 1500's. Two unusual christian names occur in the Armstrongs of Whitaugh 'clan' - Quentin (Quyntin, Quentain etc) & Lancelot (Lance, Lanty, Lenty etc).
I recall that two Armstrongs with the above christian names died around 1611, one of them after being held prisoner in Northumberland.
I've seen these names listed in trees in the early 1700's in America - Pennsylvania & Tennessee in particular.
My question is: Does anyone know of any Lancelots or Quentins who lived during say, the 1610-1700 timescale? Also, any who left for Ireland or America?
I have info on a Kirkandrews Upon Esk, Cumberland Lancelot who was a Royal Navy surgeon at the Battle of Trafalgar. He later lived in the cottage by Gilnockie Tower.
Thanks,
Bob
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Hi Bob,
I've just come across a Lancelot Armstrong who married Isabell Rewcastle in 1798 at Corbridge (next to Hexham, Northumberland.)
In the baptisms for Corbridge, i've found John Armstrong, aug 7th 1799 son of Lancelott Armstrong of Corbridge, Surgeon, native of Langholm, Scotland and Isabell Rewcastle of Corbridge.
My 5th great grandparents were John Armstrong and Ann Rewcastle, they were married at Hexham, Northumberland in 1768.
As far as i can tell so far, Ann Rewcastle and Isabell Rewcastle were from the same family, cousins or aunt and neice.
My 5th great grandfather John Armstrong had a relative Dr John Armstrong (1749-1815) whose father was John Armstrong, (1709-1779) Apothercay and Surgeon of Brampton, Cumberland.
Dr John Armstrong (1749-1815) had relatives Charles and William Armstrong who were East indies merchants, later on they went to Mobile, Alabama where they were cotton merchants before returning to England.. I understand they may have had family out in the USA.
Charles and William Armstrong father, another John Armstrong had Armstrong relatives in Graitney, Kirtleton and Bowholm, Canonbie.
Does this connect with anything you have?
Regards
Rewcastle.
p.s. found this site last night, just search for Armstrong. link (http://www.rps.ac.uk/search.php?action=fc&fn=jamesvi_trans&id=id5640&query=&type=trans&variants=#t1585_12_37_d7_trans)
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Brilliant work, Rewcastle
I'll check through my papers & get back to you. I'm in touch with a lot of US Armstrongs as part of my DNA work: I'm a co-admin for the Armstrong DNA Surname Group.
I'll try to get back to you this evening when our visitors leave!!!
Cheers (& thanks)
Bob
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Thanks for all the leads, Rewcastle
I'll search through them all
Cheers
Bob
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Baptisms from the OPR's on SP
20/06/1736 ARMSTRONG LANCELOT son of WILLIAM ARMSTRONG at Graitney or Gretna DUMFRIES
07/09/1740 ARMSTRONG LANCELOT son of WILLIAM ARMSTRONG and SUSANNE BLYTHE at Graitney or Gretna DUMFRIES
11/09/1743 ARMSTRONG LANCELOT son of JOHN ARMSTRONG and JANET BELL at Langholm or Staplegorton DUMFRIES
20/03/1748 ARMSTRONG LANSELOT son of JOHN ARMSTRONG and JANET BELL at Langholm or Staplegorton DUMFRIES ( the 1743 Lancelot must have died as a child)
There is only 1 record for a Quintin on the OPR's
14/02/1854 ARMSTRANG QUINTINE son of JAMES ARMSTRANG and ANNIBAL DICK at Maybole AYR
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Thanks Sancti,
Your input greatly appreciated,
Cheers
Bob
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There is a Quentin Armstrong who died at 'Row' a farm in Bewcastle Cumberland in 1689.
I only know because there is an Inventory for all his possessions.
His wife was Elizabeth
That's about it.
Judy
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Thanks Judy,
As you know, Bewcastle is another Armstrong hot-spot.
Cheers
Bob
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Doing a free search of the OPR banns and marriages on SP gives a record for
Lansolet Armstrong in 1674 at Langholm Dumfries
Unfortunately I'm out of credits to see what his brides name was
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Thanks, Sancti
That's extremely interesting & useful
Cheers
Bob
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Sorry to intrude on your Armstrong topic, my g.grandfather was a Walter Armstrong, b.c. 1845. in, Roxborough, Dumfries, or Borders, depends which census you read.
To date i have not traced his family, apart from, i think he married, 1870, Rotherham Emma Hall.
There was a topic on here, 6/3/07, Armstrong family Sheffield 1901 Cen., I was wondering if you Armstrong researchers had come across this family in your endeavours ?
Bodger
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Bodger, when did he die? Does his death certificate give his parents names?
Closest baptism record on the OPR's is this one
19/06/1845 ARMSTRONG WALTER son of WILLIAM ARMSTRONG and MARGARET TELFER at Castleton ROXBURGH
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Hello Bodger,
You mentioned Walter Armstrong which was interesting. I've just been looking at a will featuring the Little family, who were connected (I believe) via Jane Little to Lancelot Armstrong.
This Lancelot died at Gilnockie Cottage, Canonbie & the will features several Littles, including a WALTER Little. The will was dated 1834, so wondering if your Walter was named for him? Slightly tenuous, but who knows? Walter is a fairly rare Armstrong name from what I've seen.
Cheers
Bob
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I am trying to work my way backward from a Lancelot Armstrong. Born 1700 in Hanover, Virginia, USA. Died 24 Sep 1745. Family history indicates that his father may have been born in Scotland, but I cannot confirm this. He married Sarah Wrench (or Rench) and had 7 children: Susanna, William, Thomas, Sarah, Mary, Lancelot (1743), and John.
I hope this may be of interest to you, since the name appears at the end of your timescale, in 1700 and again in 1743.
Bob
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Thanks for the info, Bob
I'll make a note of it & see if I can find any answers this end.
Happy hunting,
Bob
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I recall reading that a son of the Whithaugh Laird wed "...a gypsy fey..." and that subsequent Armstrong generations had "...licken brows & dark complexions"
William A Armstrong in his book "The Armstrong Bordeland" states that Francis is another common Whithaugh name. This interested me, as I have close Y-DNA links to a Canonbie-linked Armstrong who also has Francis's throughout his pedigree.
My family as far back as I can remember are all dark-haired, so maybe a link?
A bit of a long shot, but food for thought!
Bob
PS I also have a more distant Y-DNA link to an Armstrong who has Quinten's in his early lineage - also a Whithaugh name
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Castlebob,
I remember reading this interesting thread earlier in the year but sadly had nothing to contribute at that time.
However, recently I’ve been reading ‘The Steel Bonnets – the story of the Anglo-Scottish Reivers’ by George MacDonald Fraser, a superb read for those that haven’t come across it, an astonishing account of life on the Border around 500 years ago, with the Armstrongs of course featuring prominently.
Fraser mentions an early Lancelot Armstrong who may be of interest to you if you haven’t come across him already.
Fraser mentions that the state papers and records of the Scottish Privy Council from around 1611 list the names of individuals to be hanged at Jedburgh and Dumfries, those to be cautioned and of fugitives still at large. He makes the following interesting reference:-
“Thom, Jok and Lancie Armestrangis…sall pass furth of the kingdoms of Scotland and England , and sall not returne…”
So, if Lancie (along with Thom and Jok) were indeed effectively banished from the Kingdom as is suggested it begs the question where did he go? Might he have ended up in America and might the individuals who share his forename in the early 1700s in America be descended from him (or from Thom or Jok)? An intriguing thought!!
On a completely different note, does anyone know if the American cyclist Lance Armstrong has Roxburghshire/Whitaugh roots?
If anyone is able to shed light on my own Armstrong mystery I’d be very grateful. I’m trying to establish who the parents of Mary Armstrong who married George Hog 10 July 1762, Ashkirk were. She seems to have been of the Parish of Minto at the time of her marriage.
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Hello Langtonian,
Sadly, Lance was adopted by an Armstrong, so no claim to fame for us there!
'The Steel Bonnets' is an excellent read, plus 'The Armstrong Borderland' by W A Armstrong is useful too. For the myths & traditions, 'The Chronicles of the Armstrongs' is excellent. It is available free on the internet. Google uo the title + free download & you should get it.
The ref to the banished Armstrongs, plus refs to the more unusual Lancelot & Quentin names are of great interest, as they are a lot easier to pinpoint than all the John's & Williams!!! As you rightly say, America (or Ulster first) makes sense.
I've been in touch with a few US Armstrongs with the more unusual names in their lineages, & have DNA links to one.
I've noted the names you are interested in & will bear you in mind.
Many thanks for your reply. Greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Bob
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Thanks Bob, excellent recommendations in terms of further reading, I look forward to reading these.
Ulster is a likely destination for the 3 Armstrongs mentioned, possibly before going to America.
We know that numerous other Borders bad lads such as Elliots, Johnstones, Nixons and Crosiers ended up in Ulster after be numerous misdemeanours in Scotland and England!
Regards,
George
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Castlebob, I've got another Lancelot Armstrong for you to add to you collection.
On 25th May 1611, Lancelot Armstrong was part of an Eliott/Armstrong raid into Tynedale against the Robsons. Lancelot was the son of Francis Armstrong (the Standard Bearer) of Whithaugh.
Other Armstrong's mentioned on the raid were:-
Lancelot the young laird of Whithaugh, (b. 1580) and his brother Alexander of the Roane.
All together there were about 70 on the raid, 50 on horseback and the rest on foot. There may have been more Armstrong's on the raid which aren't mentioned in the list.
If the Lairdship of Whithaugh passed from father to son, the Lancelot Armstrong, the young Laird of Whithaugh mentioned in the raid would have been the father of Francis Armstrong of Whithaugh Castle and the great grandfather of John Armstrong, both who are mentioned on the family vault, who would have also been the same Lancelot and Francis Armstrong mentioned in the Whithaugh deeds in 1667.
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Thanks for that, Rewcastle!
I'll make a note.
Cheers,
Bob
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A couple of other interesting bits that i've found.
Roy Military Survey of Scotland, 1747-1755 (http://maps.nls.uk/)
If you click on the link, you will find a number of maps of Scotland. If you then click on 'Roy Military Survey of Scotland, 1747-1755' in the list, you will go to the next page, part way down the page click on Full screen map - 'Lowlands'. You will get a full screen map. On the 3rd strip from the right, near to the bottom, is the word 'Cumberland'.
If you zoom in just above the word 'land' in Cumberland, you should be in the Castleton area and be able to see Mangerton and 'Whithaugh Castle' ;) :D
(you can use the arrows on the left like google maps or the wheel of your mouse to zoom)
A couple of transcripts from the London Gazette.
7th March 1723
James Armstrong, late of Maingertown in the parish of Castletown in the Shire of Roxburgh, Scotland, Gent, is named in the bankruptcy of Edmund Camden.
29th October 1771.
James Armstrong, late of Logan house, and John Armstrong, late of Logan Mains in the Parish of Half Morton in North Britain, (Scotland), but now of the City of Carlisle in the County of Cumberland. Partners, Dealers and Chapmen were declarded bankrupts. All debts to be paid to Mr John Dixon, Attorney at Law, at Brampton in the County of Cumberland.
A couple of bits mentioning the Armstrong's, Elliot's and Whithaugh, from Two Centuries of Border Church Life. 1891.
It is well known that some years of scarcity occurred at the close of the 17th century; and to that period the Session records contain some interesting references.
On the 6th June, 1698, a meeting of heritors and elders was held, conform to intimation from the pulpit, to take into their serious consideration what farther provision could be made for the poor. There were present Mr. Duncan McArthur, bailie of the regality ; Francis Armstrong of Whithaugh ; John Elliot of Thorlishope, with the minister and elders.
It was agreed that Mr. McArthur should send for two bolls of corn, to be ground free of multure at Whithaugh Mill, and to be distributed to the poor by Adam Armstrong and John Beatty, elders, at the rate of a peck of meal to the most needful and half a peck to those less necessitous.
It was also recommended that the Session give a note under their hand to such of the poor as were able to travel about the parish, but that none others should be entertained "under the penalty imposed by acts of Council." The meal was ground and distributed according to this agreement.
In the same book Mr. Elliot writes in 1749 — "I got three guineas from Sister Helen, that she got from John Armstrong, rowed in a bit paper to give me ;" and, again, "Received from my mother, which she received from John Armstrong, Whithaugh, to give me, three pounds." The worthy farmer had a large holding, but had difficulties not a few in keeping clear of debt, though he struggled manfully to be honest and honourable.
There are frequent intimations that " all accounts are cleared " between him and one or another of his customers, a consummation which is always noted with great apparent satisfaction. Often he adds the words, " We are free ;" and on the 27th June, 1750, having stated that all accounts with John Armstrong, in Whithaugh, were settled, he Adds, " And all money payd betwixt us both, so we are free till more bargains be made."
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A great find, Rew
Lots of useful info - a great piece of its time
Cheers
Bob
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If the Lairdship of Whithaugh passed from father to son, the Lancelot Armstrong, the young Laird of Whithaugh mentioned in the raid would have been the father of Francis Armstrong of Whithaugh Castle and the great grandfather of John Armstrong, both who are mentioned on the family vault, who would have also been the same Lancelot and Francis Armstrong mentioned in the Whithaugh deeds in 1667.
I've been working on sorting out this family for sometime, with primary sources.
The Whithaugh pedigree gets confusing, as many sons of the 'old Laird of Whithaugh' Lance Armstrong, named a son Lance.
It is well documented that Sym the Laird of Whithaugh, Old Lance's father, was hanged in 1536.
Old Lance was succeeded by his son Symon, in 1597 or later, whose eldest son, named Lance (of the Flats, which is not too far away in Liddesdale), of course, was the heir apparent. However, it is not too clear what happened to this Lance, who was documented as born ca. 1580. He might have gone into exile, fled or faced another fate, as he had been into quite a bit of mischief before the Pacification. At age 16, he was helping his Dad and family at the prison break of Kinmont Willie, in Carlisle.
Simon was a pledge in 1597, then imprisoned in York Castle for 2 years 1598-1590. He broke his leg in a foiled escape attempt. It seems that he was hanged in 1607 by Dunbar.
Francis 'the Standard Bearer' was another son of old Lance. He had a son called Lance that was hanged by Lord William Howard 'Belted-Will' in 1612.
Archie of Whithaugh was another son of old Lance. He held land in Ewesdale, upstream of Glendovane, and is shown on an old map of 1590.
He might have had 4 sons who lived further downstream in Kirktoun, Ewesdale, that are named in the Privy Council Records in 1611, but I have not been able to find direct evidence. These have been previously mentioned, as cited by George MacDonald Fraser. Here is the full reference: RPC Scots vol. 9 (p. 711) Jedburgh October 30 1611:
"Andro A of Kirktoun beome actit and ableist that Thom, Jok, and Lancie A, his brethir, sall pas furth of the kingomes of Scotland and England betwuix and Pasche nixttocum, and sall not returne thairto agane without licence of the Commissionaris, under the pane of 2000 merks for ild contraventioun of thame or ony of thame." It seems that they did return, however, since a similar banishment to Ireland appears on 10 June 1620 in the Records of the Privy Council!
There was likely some disruption in the tenure, due to the death of Simon in 1607. Perhaps it shifted over to the line of Francis, his brother, if his sons were deemed unsuitable, or unavailable. The 1661 Charter cites Francis, who was born ca. 1630, based on his gravestone MI of 1721 which lists his age as 91. Who his father was is not clear to me. Any further information would be most appreciated.
John
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Thank you mosside, what you have said seems to have more or less what i have found.
One part which you mention that i haven't come across is the 1661 charter which cites Francis Armstrong 1630-1721.
This Francis Armstrong seems to be the same one mentioned on the family vault as Francis Armstrong of Whithaugh Castle, father of Christian Armstrong who married John Armstrong [No.1], grandfather of John Armstrong [No.2] and great-grandfather of John Armstrong [No.3], all mentioned on the family vault. John Armstrong [No.3] and his wife to be, were both witnesses to my 4th great-grandparents wedding in 1810. My 4th grandfather was also called John Armstrong [No.4] and his father was called John Armstrong [No.5].
In the will of John Armstrong [No.3] he mentions his son John Armstrong [No.6] who later died in London, and also two other relatives living in London, they were the sons of another John Armstrong [No.7].
In another will, that of Jane Armstrong, it mentions John Armstrong [No.2], as well as a son and two daughters and a sister of John Armstrong [No.8], of Bowholm, Canonbie, John Armstrong [No.9] of Timpanheck, Half Morton, and a John Armstrong [No.10] of Yorkshire, his father was from Kirtleton.
As you say, it does get confusing when so many had the same names. Sometimes feels like i'm going around in circles. ;D
Getting back to Francis Armstrong 1630-1721 of Whithaugh mentioned in the charter of 1661. I assume that he is the same Francis Armstrong mentioned in the 1667 deeds of Whithaugh, one of which mentions Francis Armstrong and also mentions the hereditary property of Lancelot Armstrong and the other deed which mentions Francis Armstrong also has another Armstrong, who's first name i cant make out.
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Thanks very much, Rewcastle.
Sorry for the typo - my entry above should have read 1667 rather than 1661.
There is a link to this and other Whithaugh deeds/charters at this site:
http://www.welters-worldwide.com/Whithaugh/Whithaugh5.htm, as you are no doubt aware.
You have made great inroads into this family tree, esp in light of the many Johns!
Do you have a transcription of the the 1667 Deed?
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Sorry, but i haven't managed to crack the deeds yet, but i'm no expert. ??? I think i can make some of it out, which i've written below.
The first line mentions James Duke of Buccleugh and Anna Countess of Buccleugh and the charter.
2nd Line: mentions:- Francis (earl) of Bothwell, till when Lancelot of Whithaugh [carried on on 3rd line]
3rd line: [two words ?] our Francis Armstrong [word] of Whithaugh [4 words] ?Mangerton? the date ninth day, month October in the year of our lord.... (I think this seems to be refering to the date of the deed of 1586)
4th line: the said [aforesaid] Francis Armstrong [6 words] as hereditary property [1 word] possess [5 words]. onto line 5.
5th line. (followed from line 4) [2 words] till when lancelot['s] hereditary property et posseses [1 word] land....
6th line.. till when, Lancelot Armstrong, the said [aforementioned] Francis Armstrong [? word] [? word] our family of Buccleuch.
Some of the words mentioned in the deeds.
The word that looks like:- jnous, gnous, i think it is quous. translates to:- if any.
It could also be short for the word quousque which translates to:- until what time, till when, how long; or (quo usque) [how long? how far?].
noftra, noftrum >> nostra and nostrum translates to:- our
The word that looks like Pzdfatiio, the letter that looks 'z' is an 'r', the letter that looks like a 'd' is an 'a', 'e' or 'ea'. Thus the first part of the word which looks like 'pzd' would read 'pre'.
prefat translates as 'the aforementioned', prefatum translates as 'the said'. I would say that prefatiio would be in the same context as the others.
If the Lancelot mentioned in the deeds of 1667, is the same Lancelot born abt 1580, 20 years old while held in York. He would have been about 87 years old at the time of the deeds, and Francis 1630-1721, would have been 37 years old at the time of the deeds. This would mean if Lancelot was the father of Francis, he would have been 50 years old when Francis was born which wouldn't be impossible, but i wonder if there's a generation missing?
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I should have pointed out that the deed i'm looking at is this one:- http://www.welters-worldwide.com/Whithaugh/Images/1667%203.jpg
On line 6... till when, Lancelot Armstrong, the said [aforementioned] Francis Armstrong [? word] [? word] our family of Buccleuch.
The missing words look like 'opus nopoo', 'napoo' or nepoo, from what i'm finding with translations 'nepo' means nephew or grandson, various ending on the end of 'nepo' have the meaning of grandson, child's son. ???
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This is certainly a challenging document. It certainly appears to make reference to the earlier document of 1586 when Francis Earl of Bothwell granted a charter to (old) Lancelot Armstrong. One might expect that this was acknowledging Francis Armstrong of Whythaugh as a descendant. It would be helpful to have a higher resolution copy to read, as some words must be impossible to read, even if you understand Latin.
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This is my translation from the last words of the 3rd line to about a third of the 5th line.
mentioned - mentioned
dicti - to say, speak, utter, tell, mention, relate, affirm, declare, state, assert
quous - if any, It could also be short for the word 'quousque',:- until what time, till when, how long; or (quo usque) [how long? how far?].
Lancelot Armstrong - Lancelot Armstrong
durank?
sua - his, their, their own, his own, it's.
bita? -
possess - possess
fuerunt - were, have been, they were, there were, been.
per - before, aforesaid,
prefatum - the said
Francis Armstrong - Francis Armstrong
erus? looks like opus? - Master of a House, Proprietor, Master of a Family, Owner, Lord (Laird?), Sweetheart, God.
nepotem - grandson, the grandson of, nephew, the nephew of
semper - always, eternally, ever, perpetually, fore ever,
ab - from the, by the.
erus? looks like opus? - Master of a House, Proprietor, Master of a Family, Owner, Lord (Laird?), Sweetheart, God.
decessu - departure, decease of, decease,
tanquam - as much as, so as, just as, like as, as if, so to speak
hereditary properties - hereditary properties
earundem? - the same, same, their, of their.
possess - possess
sunt? - to be, exist, live
sicuti - as, as he, as it, just as.
etiam - also, is also, also the.
pre - aforesaid
?????
dicti - to say, speak, utter, tell, mention, relate, affirm, declare, state, assert
quous - if any, It could also be short for the word 'quousque', :- until what time, till when, how long; or (quo usque) [how long? how far?].
Lancloti - Lancelot
hereditary property - hereditary property
et - and, and his,
possessors - possessors
dictarum - of the said, said, aforesaid, the aforesaid.
terrarum - of the lands.
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Thanks, Rewcastle.
That's very impressive!
It would be great to find the direct connection between Lancelot A. of the 1586 charter and Francis Armstrong of the 1667 charter. The earlier charter clearly reaffirmed granting to Lancelot, the old Laird of Whithaugh, the lands and possessions of Whithaugh (since an earlier charter had been destroyed by and English raid) and made this hereditable.
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I think i have it worked out.
Francis Armstrong the grandson mentioned in the 1667 deeds/charter, was the grandson of Lancelot Armstrong, b.abt. 1580. He would have been the great great-grandson of Lancelot Armstrong the Auld Laird of the 1586 deeds/charter.
I stripped the tree back to the bear branches and everything is mentioned in the deeds/charters and other bits that i've found. I will put them all together to post them later tonight. I've just got to do some more cross referencing.
Also there is a deed/charter missing form the collection, dated the 19th September 1770.
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I recently bought a book 'The Outlaws of the Marches', First edition, 1897, by Lord Ernest Hamilton. The book has a fair bit about the Armstrong's of Whithaugh in it.
It's an interesting book about Gavin Elliot recounting his days from the years 1587-88. There is no preface in the book and i was unsure whether it is based on fact or fiction.
Chapter 2 is titled 'Some of the Armstrong's of Whithaugh'. Most of the Armstrong's named in it, are well noted, apart from one or two of the characters who i've not come across before.
Chapter 3 is titled 'How i rode with the Armstrong's'. It's based on how he went on a raid with The Armstrong's to the town of Temmon on the 11th November 1587 and met Joan who he fell in love with.
I thought perhaps that this part was fiction, however, i've found a record of a raid by The Armstrong's of Mangerton, Whithaugh, and Co., to Temmon on Martinmas (11th November) 1587.
In the last chapter, when he is referring to the Armstrongs of Whithaugh, he states:- "Archie was killed in '98 during the raid on Haltwhistle; Sym was hanged side by side with his son Lancie on the Harribee at Carlisle in 1603; and Francis and Chris went with Buccleuch to the Netherlands, and died there fighting the Spanish, like the gallant villains they were."
Has anyone else come across the reference of Sym and his son Lancie being hanged at Carlisle in 1603. ? As this would suggest that there is a missing generation and that Lance who was in possession of Whithaugh in 1632-38, may have been the son of Lancie and grandson of Sym.
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Sounds intriguing.
Laird Simon (Sym) of Whithaugh was executed in 1607 along with his brother Andrew, after being captured that year.
His son Lance (of Flat) was not apparently mentioned in the related MSS:
Cecil Papers Volume 19: pp. 397-521:
"Prisoners Taken by Lord Dunbar":
"Of Scottishmen: John Armstrong of Mangertoun; Syme Armstrong of Quhitehanche; Andrew Armstrong his brother;" Endorsed: "1607."
Muncaster MSS p. 270 Feb 23, 1606[-7]. Berwick. The Earl of Dunbar to the Bishop of Carlisle and Sir W. Lawson:
"Man purposeth and God determyneth." Hopes to be well enough to meet them on the 18th of March. Mangerton, Whithaugh, William Ellott, Andrew Armstrong, and Martin Ellot, are executed for very odious and criminal causes, and fourteen others for stealths and other punishable causes."
It seems quite likely that Lancelot you mention is the missing link - thanks to a cross-border foray for a bride having been recorded:
Bishop's transcripts of Arthuret Vol. 1 Arthuret Parish Register PR 18/19:
October 1625 Lancelot Armestrong of Whittagh in [the] Parish of Castleton in the Kingdome of Scotland
and Jhaine Grame [P]lump of the Parish of Arthuret married.
(transcription thanks to Margaret Marrs, 1998. Ewart Library, Dumfries)
It would be helpful to confirm who this Lancelot's father was. As you say, the most likely candidate would be Lancy of Flat ("the young laird" of Whithaugh mentioned in various raids), who was the son of Sym.
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Further to the above, I am convinced that the missing link is indeed 'Lancy of Flat', who succeeded his father, Lancelot son of Symon (hanged in 1607), and was the father of Francis mentioned in the 1667 Charter.
The term "young laird' was used to identify successor, usually eldest son, and "younger of" when the father had the same forename.
MS State Papers Domestic James Vol 63, no 99 May 28, 1611: complaint of Earl of Cumberland to Salisbury. Murder of an Englishman (Lionel Robson of Leaplish, 6 miles from the Scottish border) by 70 armed Scotts, Elliotts, Armstrongs, and others on May 26. There is a list of the slain, wounded, and various offenders referenced, including: "Lancelot Armestrong of Whithaugh called the young Larde, Alexander of the Roane his brother, Francis of Whithaugh and his son Lancelot".
Since we know that Laird Symon was dead by then, this "Lancelot Armestrong of Whithaugh called the young Larde" would have to be the son of Lancelot, Symon's eldest son then Laird.
For some time he lived at nearby Flat -
RPC Scots 9(707-8) Jedburgh October 28 1611:
"The following cautioners for the entry of the persons named were "unlawit" in the sums specfied on account of their not compearing:
Lancie of Flat, younger of Quhithauch,
Francie of Westburnflat,
and Johnne A, his brother, conjunctly and severally,
for Lancie A and Symon A, sons to the said Francie"
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A few more names from this 1667 deed (http://www.welters-worldwide.com/Whithaugh/Images/1667%201.jpg)
It's from the last few lines before the last paragraph with the signatures. The letter that looks like a capital 'G' is a capital' S', the letter that looks like straight line bent over at the top to the right is a small 's'.
Same place John ? ? ? in Flat. Symone Armstronge in Cassiltoune and Williamo Scott in Parke and Williamo Croser in Maynes and John Armstronge in Whitau[gh?] with diborsis? allye?
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There are other Armstrongs, particularly a William Armstrong who stayed and lived at Bankhead on Esk, parish Kirkandrews but the one you want is this Lancelot:
7 Sep 1740 CHRISTENING: LANCELOT son of WILLIAM ARMSTRONG AND SUSANNA BLYTH, his wife of Bankhead of Esk in Kirkandrews, page 36, FHL Film #1067962, Item 7. Parish Register for Gretna, 1730-1854. Church of Scotland, parish church of Gretna (Dumfriesshire).
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I have found this thread rather a long time after it was written and wonder if anyone is still active, please?
I have found Francis Armstrong of Whitehaugh (living 1714) who married in 1683 to Julian, dau. of Henry/Harie Ker of Lintoun and they apparently had a son called Francis Armstrong who was living 1706 and 1714.
I cannot find any decent pedigree for the Armstrongs of Whithaugh and so wonder if anyone can help me to place the above-mentioned individuals, please?
Many thanks,
Caspar
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Registers & Records of Scotland, Indexes, no. 3, Index to General Register of Sasines, 1701-1720, vols. 78-117 of originals 105, 347
9 Jul 1714 Reference to Julian Ker wife of Francis Armstrong of Whithaugh younger.
Liddesdale Monumental Inscriptions 1666-1995. No. 258, pg 25
No. 258. Here lies Helen Forrester, spouse to Francis Armstrong in Whithaugh who died 2 May 1667. Here lies also Christian Elliot second wife of said Francis Armstrong who died 19 Oct 1679 aged 29. Here lies also Margaret Armstrong daughter of Francis Armstrong, Younger, of Whithaugh, who died 22 Oct 1715 aged 8 months. Here lies Francis Armstrong, elder, of Whithaugh, who died 27 Oct 1721 aged 91
If you are a member of the Armstrong Clan Association, contact them
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Interesting to read all this.
Does anyone know why / when the Whithaugh lands passed into the Elliot family? John Elliot was laird of Whithaugh by the end of the 18th C, and it eventually passed down through the female descendants to the Keirs and then the Littles. I just wondered whether the Armstrongs sold it or whether it was a family connection. I think I read somewhere that they sold it but I see above that Francis Armstrong's second wife was an Elliot.
thanks
Kirsty
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Long time since I've been on Rootschat, hopefully I'll add some more info to sort out the families of the Armstrongs of Whithaugh and Dalbeth.
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Great to see you're back, Rew.
I'll PM you.
Cheers,
Bob