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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kincardineshire => Topic started by: Pittyman67 on Monday 28 July 08 21:18 BST (UK)
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I am descended from a John Longmuir and Ann Brand who were married on October 23rd 1790 in the Parish of Glenbervie. OPR for Fordoun (16th Oct 1790) states "John Longmuir in this Parish and Ann Brand in the Parish of Glenbervy (Glenbervie) were proclaimed in order to marriage and their names having been regularly proclaimed in the church they were married the 23rd thereafter at Glenbervy". Unfortunately I am having a problem trying to work out who the parents of John Longmuir were. Assuming that he was approximately 20 years of age, and assuming that his birth was recorded in the OPR I come up with John Longmuir born 8/5/1769 Benholm, John Longmoor 24/2/1770 Glenbervie or John Longmoor 21/5/1771 Fetteresso. Have found 2 John Longmuirs of the approximate age in the 1841 Census but both dead before start of death records in 1855. I would very much appreciate if anyone can give me any clues, advice or point me in the right direction to finding John Longmuir's parents.
Regards
Andy Longmuir
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Andy, I too, am descended from John Longmuir and Ann Brand (G5 grandparents). I noticed on Ann Brand's baptism that the witnesses were Andrew Wilson of Knockbrand Farm and James Burness tenant of Auchtochter (John Brand was the sub-tenant). The OPR records show a John Brand marrying Isobel Wilson on May 10 1757 at Arburthnott, and that an Isobel Wilson was born to Andrew Wilson on 30 January 1736 at Wattieston Farm. These farms are all next door to one another, so it seems that Andrew Wilson could be Ann Brand's grandfather....and her mother was Isobel Wilson.
Andrew Wilson married Elspet Grive (It says Grive on the records, but might be Grieve) on July 1 1730 at Garvock. The dates all seem to match up.
Haven't had any luck with John Longmuir, but will keep digging. James Burness, the other witness, is connected to Robert Burns family who came from Kincardine.
Margaret Hunter
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Margaret, many thanks for the reply. I’d almost forgotten that I had a post on Roots Chat.
You are quite correct that there is a connection in the farms on the border of Glenbervie and Fordoun. John Longmuir was a sub-tenant at Drumsleed which isn’t all that far from Auchtochter and Knockburn. I also think that John Longmuir’s parents were James Longmuir and Margaret Walker who lived at Jacksbank which is also nearby. Funnily enough, just before reading your post, I had a drive round the area for inspiration and I’m still going round in circles.
Have never looked closely at Ann Brand however did come up with two possibilities – one born in Fordoun 1757 and another born in Fordoun 1760. I don’t know why but I always suspected that the latter was the one and you’ve come up with the same answer. I think that Anne Brand may have been Episcopalian as I found the birth of her son David Longmuir in Episcopalian records in ANESFHS. Unfortunately no other records however, John Longmuir and Anne Brand were married on 23rd October 1790 and I am descended from their first son James (named after James Longmuir and Margaret Walker – tradition of naming first son after father???) who was born on 24th November 1790 i.e. in fornication. I might manage to get down to Edinburgh one of these days to have a look at the Kirk session records to find out if there is anything recorded.
Can’t work out where you are based from your username. I’m in Pitmedden in Aberdeenshire just in case you are nearby.
Regards
Andy
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Hi Andy ... thanks for the info! My line is Kirkpatrick Williamson Burness Longmuir, born at Drumsleed in October 1805 - he's my G3 Grandfather, and brother to your James. Kirkpatrick's son, John, moved from Kincardine to Rattray, Perthshire, via Dun, near Montrose and Tannadice. He died there in 1917.
I now live in Murthly, Perthshire, and started this family tree for my sons a year or so ago and have become totally hooked. We drove up to Arbuthnott last weekend, photographing all the farms the family is associated with.
If I can help you with any information, I would be pleased to do so, however, I suspect you are in the same boat as me - we get back to the 1750's and then it's a bit vague.
Margaret
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G'day Margaret
I too am descendant from Ann Brand and John Longmuir through George Longmuir and my "cousin" Wendy in NZ is also directly descendant from Kirkpatrick. "Cousin" Andy sent me this link. Cousin Wendy and I are meeting in Australia then we are travelling to Scotland in 3 weeks time, it would be interesting to meet up. I can be contacted on (*) George was my great great grandfather. I am connected to his son David, then David's son Alfred then my Dad Norman Longmuir. I am the youngest of 4 siblings. I live in Melbourne Australia.
Would love to hear from you,
Gwen
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For Aussie Princess. I have to confess my Longmuir line is not as direct as yours. Kirkpatrick is my G3 grandfather. His son John Longmuir, born in 1833, married Bridget Welsh from Ireland. Their first born was Georgina Milne Longmuir, followed by 7 more children. Georgina Longmuir worked at Anniston House near Inverkeilor as a domestic servant, until the Groom, Thomas More, got hold of her and she had an illegitimate daughter, Mary Jane Longmuir, in Edinburgh in 1880. That was my grandmother, who married a James Howie in 1901. My mother was born in 1912. Georgina Longmuir went on to marry John Byars, baker, in Edzell and had a family with him. I have pix of where she lived and her gravestone in Edzell chuchyard.
We have visited all the little churches around Arbuthnott, Fordoun, etc and farms in Kincardine where the Longmuirs worked. Last weekend we visited Kineff where Kirkpatrick died. There are no traces of Longmuirs in any of the country churchyards, but that's to be expected, they were humble folks. If we can be of any help on your trip here, just shout!
Margaret
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My husband is descended from John Longmuir and Bridget Welsh.I have an old photo which I think is John and Bridget on their croft outside Alyth . Perhaps you could PM me.
Jan Longmuir
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Reply to Teenty : Wow! A Picture of John Longmuir and Bridget Welsh - that would be fantastic....I know that John Longmuir (My G Grandfather) died in Rattray, Perthshire, in 1917 and that Bridget, his wife, died in Brechin in March 1936, I hope to trawl round Brechin Cemetery in the next few weeks and see if I can locate her grave. John and Bridget lived at Pictfield Feus , Rattray according to the 1901 Census. My Mother, Marjory Howie, (Mother Mary Jane Longmuir - married to James Howie, died in WW1, buried at Gaza, Palestine) had a vague memory of both. I would be happy to give you any information/ family pictures I can about the family.. I am still new to Rootschat, but am amazed, already, about the info I have gathered.
Margaret
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G'day again Margaret
You mentioned you have a Georgina Longmuir marrying a John Byars. A strange coincidence is that the George Longmuir I mentioned (my gg grandfather) was married to a Margaret McKay. Her parents were David McKay and Elizabeth Byars. George Longmuir was born in 1801 in Fordoun and died 1882 in Brechin. Their son David was born in 1824 at Fearn. David and his brother - another George, emigrated to Australia. David came to Melbourne and George ended up in Perth in Western Australia.
There was a brother John who remained in Scotland and was informant on his father's death certificate. It is with many thanks to Andy I have recently found the details about Margaret McKay. She was our "brick wall" for many years. I haven't had time to reseach any further on her ancestry yet. I have been registered with Rootschat.com for a few months but haven't actually used it before.
Gwen
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Hi there,
I have Longmuirs too, Thomas born Lanarkshire 1806 who married Sarah Hamilton (1810-1891) in 1830 in Lanark. Their son Thomas Longmuir (1832-1855) married Agnes Paterson (1835-1913) in 1852 who had a daughter Marion who married John McDowell in 1889 Bridgeton, Glasgow.
Any connections?
Best wishes, Jimmijam
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G'day
Our Longmuirs come from around Angus, Kincardine areas and so far haven't found our line around Glasgow yet, although Lanark isn't too far away. Thomas is not a name that is common in my line. We have not expanded all the branches on the tree and keep finding more as we go along. I will keep you in mind for future reference. The Scots were certainly travellers (not the gypsy type) and they crop up all over the place! In Australia there appears to be two distinct lines, one line are sea-faring and the other are labourers. My line were crofters/labourers in Scotland and labourers in Australia. The sea-farers seem to come from Banffshire.
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Hi Gwen,
Thanks for replying.
Sarah was a grocer (quite forward for her time), and her husband Thomas, a handloom weaver and their son Thomas was a mason. I've found a few Longmuirs from the Lanarkshire / Central Scotland area in the census but it seems to be a somewhat unusual name.
Best wishes, Jimmijam
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Hi folks
I am Aussie Princess's cousin from New Zealand. I am interested in Margarets information re Kirkpatrick LONGMUIR. I do not have any children for Georgina LONGMUIR and John BYARS. Is there any chance of you having them?
Thanks
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Hi - re children of Georgina Longmuir and John Byars. They are Maggie Anderson, David Adam, Charles Scott and Johanna Milne. I can PM eaxt dates if required
Margaret
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Many thanks for your reply Margaret. Yes I would like dates & places of birth, also their marriages etc.
Wendy
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Margaret
Could you please tell me - John B LONGMUIR (who married Bridget WALSH) - what does the "B" stand for?
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I don't know what the "B" is for - his Mother was Anne Brand, maybe that's it?
M
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All,
I'm fairly new to this, but am a descendant from William and Agnes Longmuir (Saskatchewan, Canada) and am trying desperately to trace our ancestry back to an origin (as far back as possible) in Scotland.
I've been able to trace back William crossing to Nova Scotia on the "Siberian" and landing in 1905. However, from what I can tell, our family originated in Lanarkshire. On the ship's transcripts the description reads "Farmer" which makes sense as we are still farmers in Canada, Age 25, and Single as a marital status. All this adds up, but from what I can tell his father would have been John Longmuir.
Can anyone help?
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Hi everyone,
I think the right John Longmuir christened in Glenbervie 24 Sep 1770 is the correct one. I can account for 1771 one elswhere. He married Christian Patterson and is definitely not the one married to Ann Brand. The Benholme one seems to have died before the children have all been born so it can't be him. I think that the parents of John Longmuir who married Ann Brand are James Longmuir and Rachel Rankin.
Cheryl
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Cheryl
Good to hear from you and even better to know that you have got as far as I have in identifying John Longmuir.
I have also managed to work out that John Longmuir who was married to Christian Patterson was the son of John Longmuir and Elizabeth Collie and was the father of the Revd John Longmuir who was prominent in the disruption of the Church of Scotland.
Regarding John Longmuir being born in Glenbervie he is the son of James Longmuir and Margaret Walker:
Kinneff and Catterline OPR (March 9th 1755) - James Longmuir in the Parish of Glenbervie and Margaret Walker in this Parish gave in their names in order to marriage and were married after due proclaimations.
Glenbervie OPR: (24th February 1770) - James Longmuir in Jacksbank had a son baptized John. Witnesses Andrew and James Walker both in Jacksbank. (Mother was Margaret Walker).
Would be interested about the John Longmuir from Benholm who you think died before all the children had been born as I would like to rule him out as a possibility. I know he is the son of Andrew Longmuir and Jean Skae but know nothing else. Any info appreciated however I don't think he is the son of James Longmuir and Rachel Rankin as they had 3 children, Elspet, David and Rachel. Elspet must have died very young.
1808 R.L. Erected by James Longmuir Taylor in Johnshaven in memory of his wife Rachel Rankine d. 20 Nov 1798 aged 63; they had issue as follows viz. David and Rachel. James Longmuir d. 27 Jan 1819 aged 77 (back) of David Longmuir & Margaret Watt’s family Helen d. 19 Jan 1813 in infancy; David d. Annoua Bay Jamaica 17 Sept 1825 aged 22; Helen d. Aberdeen 23 Nov 1834 aged 19 & is here interred; James d. St Thomas in the East, Jamaica 30 Sept 1836 aged 31; David Longmuir Inspector of Police, Aberdeen d. Aberdeen 16 Nov 1838 aged 60.
Interestingly, James Longmuir who maried Rachel Rankine is the brother of John Longmuir who married Elizabeth Collie and the brother of Andrew Longmuir who married Jean Skae.
Regards
Andy
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Hi Andy,
Nice to hear from you. I still think that Rachel Rankin is the mother and I'll give you my reasoning. There is firstly a fifteen year gap between the marriage of Margaret and James and their first child. Not impossible but unusual. The Walker's would have likely been witnesses anyway. They were heavily married into the Collie family. My 4x grandmother Isabella Collie married her second husband who was William Walker. He was the son of the James Walker who I believe was the witness that you referred to. William Walker had previously been married to Elspet Collie. Isabella is the sister of Elizabeth Collie who married John Longmuir. I think that Margaret Walker was the first wife of James Longmuir. The first part of the MI in Benholme for the inscription you've given after Rachel's details says 'Jas Longmuir d. 27.1.1849. This is on the stone of Rachel Rankin. I've got some info somewhere on the Benholme one. I'll have a look and locate it for you. Must have a look and see if I can find James on the census.
Anyway these are just my thoughts.
Cheryl
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Cheryl
Have had a look at my records and John Longmuir born to James Longmuir and Margaret Walker wasn't the first: Mary, Elizabeth. Margaret, Jean, James, Isobel, John, William and lastly George (1758 - 1774). Witnesses were generally Andrew Walker (snr), Andrew Walker (Jnr), James Walker and William Walker.
Also found this website which may be of some interest to you:
http://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-18009081/longmuir?treeMode=immersive
Looks like I'll have to take a trip down to the National Archives in Edinburgh to see if I can unearth any info.
Regards
Andy
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Hi Andy,
Thanks for the link. Not come across it before. Looks like the site owner is working on the premiss that the date of death has been transcribed wrong for the James Longmuir buried with Rachel Rankin. They may well be right. Hard to say without seeing the grave or some other record. You would normally be able to rely on the grave. Hope you have some luck at the National Archives.
Cheryl
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Hi Pittyman67,
I have recently joined the RootsChat site and was most interested to find a thread on the Longmuirs. I too am a Longmuir in Melbourne Australia. I believe that I am a descendant of John Longmuir and Ann Brand (5G). My branch of the tree as I see it is:
John and Ann ‘s children were James, John, Alexander, David, William and George.
George married Margaret McKay and immigrated to Australia. Their children were David, Helen, Isabella and Grace.
David married Sarah Jane Kately and their children were George Henry, David and William Owen (there are possibly others).
William Owen married Jessie Matilda McDonald and their children were William Robert Gordon, John Kately and Dudley Owen.
John Kately married Elizabeth Mary Kurrle (second marriage) and their children were William Arthur Stuart (this is me) and Elizabeth Margaret.
I married Wilhelmina Elizabeth Green and we have one son, David Francis Stuart. He married Amelia Teng and their children are Lila Grace Longmuir TENG and Roy William Teng LONGMUIR.
I’ll watch this thread closely to see if I can glean more info from it.
I have lots of birth, marriage and death dates for many of the above and would be please to pass it on to anyone who wants it.
Regards
WASL
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G'day
I am from Melbourne and related to you. Alfred William LONGMUIR was my grandfather and he is a brother to William Owen. Pittyman67 (Hi Andy!!) is also related to you. I have extensive info on David and Sarah's lineage. David and Sarah are both buried in the Coburg cemetery along with 4 of their children. George who married Margaret MacKay was David's father and he did NOT come to Australia. Our family is full of Davids, Georges, Jessies, Margarets and so on. David and Sarah had a son George. George and Margaret had a son George (David's brother) who ended up in WA. Thanks to cousn Andy, we have now got Margaret (MacKay) LONGMUIR's death certifcate. I would like to contact you off line but the last time I advertised my email address, I got a slap over the knuckles from the RootsChat administration. Maybe someone could give me details of what is required to contact off line?? My maiden name was LONGMUIR and I was born in Coburg.
Cheers
Aussieprincess also known as Gwen
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Hi WASL,
Sorry to correct you but George Longmuir and Margaret McKay did not emigrate to Australia.They both died in Brechin in Scotland. They had six children,three sons John,David and George,and three daughters Helen,Isabella and Grace. Grace died at Brechin aged 17. David and his nephew William son of George emigrated not George.It's a bit confusing with repetitive names.
David's sons George and David went to Western Australia but George died in Melbourne.
George Longmuir and Margaret McKay were my great great Grandparents.
Kind regards
ozblues
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Hi ozblues,
Thanks for the correction - most welcome. I always glean a few more facts from each post. George and Margaret are also my great great grandparents.
I live in Melbourne Australia and am amassing quite a bit of info on the Australian side of the family (although far from complete). I am happy to share this with you if you wish. I have had a lot of help from "Aussieprincess".
From your username I suspect you might also be in Australia.
regards
WASL
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Hi Jutland3,
I noticed that in one of your posts that the name "Milne" occurs in connection with the Longmuir surname. You may be interested that the name Colin Milne Longmuir occurs in a book (non-fictional) written by Michael Cannon entitled "The Land Boomers" (INSB 0 17005105 6). It is a story about the land boom and finacial crises that occured in Melbourne, Australia in the late 1880s. The book describes Longmuir as the son of the Rev. John Longmuir of Aberdeen. Longmuir was involved in a finacial scandal involving well over a million pounds (a lot of money in those days). He was called to his bank's headqurters in London but, just before reaching Colombo, he died and was burried at sea. There remains some mystery over the circumstances of his death.
Regards
WASL
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Hi Pittyman67,
I have been in email contact with "Aussieprincess" and "ozblues" and understand they have met you in Scotland. Would you have any objection to my contacting you by email? We are both descendants of John Longmuir and Ann Brand.
There seems a possibility that John's parents were James Longmuir and Margaret Walker. I have come across a James Longmuir born 11 August 1728 in Dundee Angus Scotland (FamilySearch.org). This James' parents were William Longmuir and Elizabeth Lindsay. The dates seem to fit. I was wondering if you (or any other Member) have any information to verify or exclude this possibility?
Best regards
WASL
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Hi there I am descended from James Longmuir (1792-1873) and Margaret Pithie who lived in Banchory Devenick at one point as some of their children were born there. They had 11 children born between 1821 - 1844, Margaret, Mary, William, Jean, James, Robert, Joseph, Ann, Charles, David and Isabel. James's parents were Alexander Longmuir and Mary Paul. I've got a bit stuck looking any further back if anyone can help?
Lindsxx
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Wish my line of Longmuirs was so easy to dig up some info on. I've been to the National Archives and didn't unearth anything. At one time I thought that James Longmuir who was married to Margaret Pithie may have been the son of John Longmuir and Ann Brand. Unfortunately this turned out not to be the case however I did keep a note of what I found:
Erected by James Longmuir and Margaret Pithie in memory of their family: Mary d. 28 Apr 1842 aged 19, James d. 26 Oct 1853 aged 24, Robert d. 17 Mar 1854 aged 16, David d. 5 July 1860 aged 29. Above James Longmuir late Blacksmith at Hillside d. 19 Nov 1873 aged 83; Margaret Pithie his wife d. 9 Mar 1875 aged 76. Ann Longmuir d. 14 Aug 1900 aged 73; Charles Longmuir d. 27 Oct 1907 aged 63. 9 Lines verse on back.
You should be able to get a copy of James Longmuirs Death Cert on Scotlands People. Notes his parents as being Alexander Longmuir and Mary Paul. Sorry haven't managed to come up with any more info.
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Hey Pittyman thats brilliant, thankyou so much.
Lindsxx
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I recently started helping my grandmother Christina Mackie Longmuir whose father was Walter Stavert Longmuir and married her mother Robina Dick in Vancouver British Columbia, Canada on August 11, 1922. She has some information that was researched by Scottish Roots and some the names that were found related to her were James Longmuir and Margaret Pithie their son Alexander married Euphemio Gove. Is this any relation?
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For Aussie Princess. I have to confess my Longmuir line is not as direct as yours. Kirkpatrick is my G3 grandfather. His son John Longmuir, born in 1833, married Bridget Welsh from Ireland. Their first born was Georgina Milne Longmuir, followed by 7 more children. Georgina Longmuir worked at Anniston House near Inverkeilor as a domestic servant, until the Groom, Thomas More, got hold of her and she had an illegitimate daughter, Mary Jane Longmuir, in Edinburgh in 1880. That was my grandmother, who married a James Howie in 1901. My mother was born in 1912. Georgina Longmuir went on to marry John Byars, baker, in Edzell and had a family with him. I have pix of where she lived and her gravestone in Edzell chuchyard.
We have visited all the little churches around Arbuthnott, Fordoun, etc and farms in Kincardine where the Longmuirs worked. Last weekend we visited Kineff where Kirkpatrick died. There are no traces of Longmuirs in any of the country churchyards, but that's to be expected, they were humble folks. If we can be of any help on your trip here, just shout!
Margaret
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Hi there
I picked up this thread on a google search on Brand's in Kincardine. I am principally chasing up the Walker references, but to try and find the links between the branches back then I am trying to look at the associated families.
My Walkers were at Buckies Mill but I am sure that I must be related to the Walkers in New Mill and at Jacksbank (so I'm particularly interested in the Margaret Walker connection).
My Anne Brand was married to Alexander Walker and she died 23/10/1740. Alexanders son (also Alexander) also married a Brand, hence my need to piece together the Brand family.
My understanding of the OPR at this time (which may be flawed!) is that where the register says that a wedding or a christening was "witnessed", it almost certainly confirms that they were episcopalians not attending the official church of Scotland. Weddings and christenings in the official church were recorded as "in the face of the congregation".
Graeme
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Hi Andy ... thanks for the info! My line is Kirkpatrick Williamson Burness Longmuir, born at Drumsleed in October 1805 - he's my G3 Grandfather, and brother to your James. Kirkpatrick's son, John, moved from Kincardine to Rattray, Perthshire, via Dun, near Montrose and Tannadice. He died there in 1917.
I now live in Murthly, Perthshire, and started this family tree for my sons a year or so ago and have become totally hooked. We drove up to Arbuthnott last weekend, photographing all the farms the family is associated with.
If I can help you with any information, I would be pleased to do so, however, I suspect you are in the same boat as me - we get back to the 1750's and then it's a bit vague.
Margaret
Hi Margaret
I'm a relative in the USA (via Canada) who is related to John (abt 1770)/Ann Brand; James Longmuir (1880) was my GGG grandfather who came to Ontario, Canada from K and C about 1845. I am venturing over to Scotland soon, and am trying to find info to help guide my hunt for those Longmuir footsteps! Saw in another post you took pictures, and I am still trying to decide what's important to see. An email I can be reached at is Mike48162 (at) gmail.com Thanks. Hope to hear back. Mike M, Ann Arbor, Michigan USA PS. Also sent AndyL/Pittyman67 an email!
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hi andy, i am descended from anne brand and john longmuir through my maternal grandmother who was meta jeanetta steel howie.
my records have john longmuir's parents as james longmuir and margaret walker. john longmuir and anne brand had a son called kirkpatrick w. longmuir who married elizabeth balfour. they had a son who married Bridget welsh. they had a daughter called georgina m .longmuir who was married to john byers but georgina had a laison with a thomas moore (a groom to georgina & john byers) which produced a daughter whose name was mary jane longmuir, my great grandmother. mj longmuir married james m. howie and their daughter was meta jeanetta steele howie. she then married alexander crichton and their daughter, my mother, was born in 1932 in rattrey. hope this helps
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Hi Peter - your Mother is my cousin and has a disc with all the info about the family on her side...I gave it to her, if you need more, let me know
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hi all,
I'm directly descended from george longmuir and margaret mckay. They were my gggreat grandparents. my line then follows to david longmuir and sarah jane keatly, then john longmuir and mary jane trueman, then alfred william longmuir. he was my paternal grandfather. i have only recently discovered who he was.
would there be anyone out there that has a picture of him or anyone else they would be willing to share?
regards margaret