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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: frederickay on Friday 01 August 08 21:09 BST (UK)
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hi , can anyone find any papers carrying infomation as to the crime and sentence of Henry Green . it was after 1891 and before 1895 . the family lived in wandsworth and Bermondsey . i believe he and an accomplice robbed a shop and hte owner got killed .
I know he was hung in Wandsworth prison .
Interested in any thing , his wife was was Fan Jutsum . thanks
frederickay.
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I checked:
The Times database
Old Bailey Online
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/ - list of executions.
I didn't find anything about a Henry Green who was executed between 1891 and 1895.
However, in 1881 Matthew Donovan, aged 61, who ran a coffee stall on the corner of Great Suffolk-street, borough, died after two men, Daniel Quinlan and Henry Green, refused to pay and Quinlan beat him. Old Bailey records show that Henry Green was charged with but found not guilty of manslaughter:
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18810502-516-offence-1&div=t18810502-516#highlight
Later Daniel Quinlan was found guilty of the manslaughter - Henry Green gives a witness statement here:
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-377-18830226&div=t18830226-377#highlight
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hi thank you for your reply. at first i thought," Oh no i have it wrong "...whats worse I had told the family but ;
i have now looked in the family tree . our Henry Green was born in Battersea in 1872 .So therefor too young to be this man in 1881.
he was living at 17 Knowsley road Battersea in the 1891 census and his death was by hanging in Wandsworth in 1891 .
They don't appear to have had long trials do they ?
I have a letter to me from his nephew(now decs.) to describe his auntie aged 17 , going to the prison with their child and her father the night before the hanging .
The nephew had spent many years pre-computers researching and he also said he hadn't found it in the Times "
i do believe he told me where it was in which suburb and it may have been a jeweler. I will go thru the letters .
Maybe your Henry Green is the father of mine .
thank you for your interest .
Jan
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It's possible he was tried under an alias, so if you can get any information from the letters like where the crime was supposed to have taken place, etc, we might be able to track it down from that.
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Letter to me dated 1996 about Henry Green and my great aunt and great grandfather George Jutsum .
"the most interesting story in the family is the one about Aunt Fanny(Sophia's daughter ). She was rather headstrong and married a man when she was about 18. He was called Green(b. 1869 in Lambeth ) and had a criminal record. he robbed a shop in DEPTFORD with an accomplice. In the course of the robbery the shopkeeper was killed.Green was caught,tried and found guilty . He was sentenced to be hanged . My mother painted a lurid picture of the night before Green was due to be hung. Aunt Fan, in meantime had a son (Richard ) and she and the baby went with her father (George Caleb jutsum ) to the Goal for a final visit. AuntFan lived up to her reputation . she '' married ' a member of the Irish self independence Movement . no legal ceremony was performed ."
N.B from Jan
As time as gone on tho this is one of the more interesting stories, the rest of the family dating back 2 00 hundred years are as scandalous as each other if not more so.
thanks .
Jan
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n.b. correction . George Jutsum and his wife Sophia Jutsum are my great great grandparents ,
??? ??? so Fan was their daughter, so she must be my great aunt ?. bye Jan.
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She'd be your great-great-aunt, I think ??? Your grandmother/father's sister would be your great-aunt; your great-grandmother/father's sister would be your great-great-aunt.
Anyway, what I wanted to ask (and I may have missed it in the thread) is do you have Henry Green's death certificate?
Cheers
Prue
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Ref for the 1891 census for 17 Knowsley Road is RG12/421 folio 25 p44. Harry Green,19, engineer's laborer b. Battersea, and wife Fanny Green 17 from Chelsea, lodgers with George Caleb Jutsum and family.
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hi , my notes from my sister say '
sentenced to death by hanging for killing shopkeeper during robbery . her Majesty's prison Wandsworth. hangman James berry .
no i don't think we have the death cert and i will have to ask her where she got that infomation from .
you would think it would be in paper . she seems sure it was in 1891 he offended ,had trial and was hung . one of the last of the hangman James Berry . regards .
Jan
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It might be worth having a look in "The Chronicles of James Berry, Victorian Hangman "
by Stewart Evans
http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/displayProductDetails.do?sku=5223744
http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/welcome.jsp?isbn=9780750934077&source=1177945481
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If a prisoner's full name was known he would be tried under that with the alias recorded as well or vice versa if it was an alias of long standing. For sentencing purposes the judge would always need to know about any past offences the prisoner might have. As Harry/Henry Green was openly Harry Green on the 1891 census and visited in prison by his wife, it doesn't seem possible that the authorities wouldn't know his real name.
Marriages Dec 1890
Green Henry Wandsworth 1d 1016
Jutsum Fanny Wandsworth 1d 1016
Harry Green was aged 19 on the 1891 census (no Harry/Henry Green of the same age born Battersea on the 1901 census). Census night 1891 was 5th April.
but there appears to be no record of the hanging
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/contents.html
full list - of hangings at Wandsworth 1891-1901
21st July 1891 Franz Munch aged 31 for the murder of Jane Hickey
19th August 1891 Robert Bradshaw aged 56 wife murder
11th October 1892 John James Banbury aged 22 for the murder of Ann Emma Oakley
18th June 1895 Joseph Canning aged 32 for the murder of Jane Youell
2nd July 1895 Henry Tickner aged 42 wife murder
4th February 1896 William Morgan 56 wife murder
5th January 1897 Henry Brown aged 32 wife murder
3rd May 1899 Frederick Andrews aged 45 wife muder
4th October 1899 Robert Ward aged 27 murder of two daughters
19th March 1901 George Parker (Hill) aged 23 for the murder of William Pearson
13th August 1901 Ernest Wickham 30 for the murder of Amy Eugenie Russell (girlfriend)
There were two Richard Greens with births registered in Wandsworth registration district in 1891
Births Sep 1891
Green Richard Wandsworth 1d 755
Births Dec 1891
Green Richard George Wandsworth 1d 600
No Green deaths in Wandsworth registration district in 1891 for any Green male near Harry's age, or any Harry or Henry.
Wandsworth prison registers are held at the London Metropolitan Archives.
The Times did cover executions at Wandsworth, though not necessarily all the trials.
James Berry hanged 6 men at Wandsworth prison between 1885 and 1891
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/wands.html
Besides the two already listed in 1891
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/contents.html
lists 4 other hangings at Wandsworth, 2 in 1890, 1 in 1889 and 1 in 1885.
I have a copy of 'My experiences as an executioner' by James Berry first published in 1892. He doesn't mention Henry Green, but then he doesn't list all the people he hanged in his 'career' (131). He retired in 1892.
'In March 1892 Berry wrote his letter of resignation, probably without knowing that in October of the previous year the Home Office had already decided that "the employment of Berry as Executioner should no longer be recommended to the High Sheriffs".'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Berry_(hangman)
'His final execution was carried out at Edinburgh on the 11th of January 1892 when he hanged Frederick Storey. James Berry was not popular with the Home Office because of his drinking, holding 'court' in a local pubs after executions, and his behaviour at the hanging of John Conway within Liverpool’s Kirkdale prison on the 20th of August 1891. Berry resigned in early 1892.'
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hangmen.html
Who did Fanny go onto 'marry'? Have you found her on the 1901 census?
Regards
Valda
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The only likely candidate I can find in GRO deaths in 1891 is this one:
Q/E Dec 1891
GREEN Henry George 21 Chelsea 1a 262
But I would have expected a death in Wandsworth to be recorded in Wandsworth!
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Executions like all deaths in this country are registered in the district they took place
e.g.
Deaths Sep 1891
Munch Franz Joseph 31 Wandsworth 1d 377
Deaths Sep 1891
Bradshaw George Robert 54 Wandsworth 1d 381
Deaths Dec 1892
Banbery John James 22 Wandsworth 1d 394
Deaths Jun 1895
Canning Joseph 34 Wandsworth 1d 389
Deaths Sep 1895
Tickner Henry 47 Wandsworth 1d 431
etc.
From the one death certificate I hold for an execution (botched by Berry) since the death was not by natural causes, like all such deaths it had to go to an inquest and the (in this case Deputry) Coroner was the informant.
The cause of death merely reads 'hanging'. The inquest took place on the same day as the execution and would have been a more formality, probably signed off by the Deputy Coroner who may have been present as a witness at the hanging, once death was pronounced - not a hard one there as Berry practically decapitated the man (a fact he doesn't mention in his book).
Regards
Valda
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If 1872 (from the 1891 census) is his correct age, I can't see any Henry Green death registrations in London between 1891 and 1901 that would fit. I can see one Harry Green.
Deaths Mar 1896
Green Harry 24 Islington 1b 224
However there were plenty of Harry Greens in London of roughly the same age on the 1891 census
Pentonville Prison would register deaths in Islington registration district, but Pentonville did not have capital punishment until after the closure of Newgate prison in 1902. Still if Henry/Harry Green was in prison and died there then family folklore may have expanded on the manner of his death in prison.
Regards
Valda
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:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
Lesson of the day .1
keep sources /
2. do not ASSUME.
i have asked my sister where she got her info and she ::) ::) assumed ????
she thought because the family lived in Wandsworth that Henry Green would be hung
in Wandsworth prison .
so the facts that we do KNOW>
Frances (d/o Georgeand Sophia jutsum was born 1874)
she was living with Henry Green with her parents Sophia and George Jutsum in 1891 census .
we know that George Jutsum died in March 1895.
So.
For Henry Green to have been hung it must be between 1891 and 1895 .
We know that my decs. cousin was told the story by his grandmother Sophia . he also mentions she loved telling tales and was not beyond exaggeration . he went thru all the "times "and could not find any record of the crime .
I see that there is a Henry green accused of murder in 1881 , Can't be ours but could be related and therefore the family got story well and truly confused .
lets hope not because we have already informed the family and will be really red faced . :P :P i will spend the rest of my time finding this man .
Frances was involve d with her new fella by 1897 if not sooner.
A very red faced Frederickay.
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If there was a Henry Green accused of murder in 1881 he wasn't hung either. Ineveitably with a surname like Green, someone somewhere is going to be involved in a serious crime.
Other than Wandsworth, the only London prison where capital punishment took place was Newgate which hanged nobody in 1891, 5 men in 1892 and 1 in each year thereafter up to 1895. The youngest of these was aged 24 in 1894.
Deaths Sep 1894
Koczula Paul 24 London C. 1c 16
Koezula Paul 24 London C. 1c 16
Deaths for all of them should register in London City.
I think the nearest other prisons which carried out capital punishment were Reading, Winchester and Chelmsford, but there are no Henry Greens or Greens hanged between 1891 and 1895.
Having someone hanged, even when it is in the extended family is generally not something which is quickly forgotten. My father's second cousin 4 times removed (so not a very close relationship - a marriage in the 1730s) was hung in the 1880s and the extended family all knew about it in the 50s and 60s. However my father's aunt (lots of aunts and uncles) went into an asylum for post-natal depression in 1920 when my father was a child, and remained there dying in the 1940s. None of us in our line of the family knew about that however.
You can't really cover up a hanging because of the press coverage of the trial etc and the effect it would have on all members of the extended family within the community. Placing close female members of the family in asylums however is strictly a family affair which can get hushed up within a generation!!
Regards
Valda
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hi i have reread the letter to me dated 1996.Dick Austen , the letter writer is quoted as saying;
' MY MOTHER (Ellen b. 1885 .not his grandmother as i thought ) painted a lurid story about the nite before Henry Green was to be hung ".
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The baby Richard Green, later known as Dick as well, was taken to the goal for the "last '' visit . He was then bought up by the Jutsums as their son.
As you can see Ellen would have been about 6/7 when all this was going on but as Henry Green and Frances were living with her and her parents in 1891 she must have had some kernel of truth.
I will trawl thru all the sites and find out what i can. thanks for all your info.
Jan
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Hi Jan,
It's sounding less likely that Henry Green was actually hanged, from the info found by Valda and others - executions seem to have been very well recorded at that time.
You just never know how families will deal with tragedy...in this case perhaps the tragedy was that Henry Green was imprisoned, or simply left his family, and Ellen was told a story about what had happened to him - it wouldn't be the first time :-\ You wouldn't believe the web of lies spun by my great-grandmother to her daughter (my Nana) about great-gran's family history - none of her stories were anywhere near the truth and it took me years to untangle it all :( But it was just the way some people coped with things.
Unfortunately I'm beginning to think this might be the case with your own family story...but I'll be very happy to be proved otherwise! (If it's possible to be happy about finding out someone was hanged :-\ :P )
Cheers
Prue
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hi ,yes when you look at the letter to me it is the "last nite before he is to BE hung ". never actually says "was hung ".
also if Henry green was still alive it might explain why Aunt Fan Jutsum never married Mr Pheby.
oh dear .close rrelatives are still alive ... :-[ :-[.
i will see what happenned . they didn't know he was hung,(they thinik he was now ,thanks to me and family lore )
but knew no more than, " he was a bad lot ".
we will see if they are got some papers somewhere . i will keep searching . Jan
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Have you found Richard Green/Jutsum with the family on the 1901 census?
Did his grandmother remarry after the death or her husband?
Marriages Dec 1897
JUTSUM Charlotte St. Saviour 1d 164
either
BAILEY William St Saviour 1d 164
or
SMITH Edwin St Saviour 1d 164
On the 1901 census there is a Fanny/Frances aged 26 and born Chelsea, married and living in Lambeth to a George T. (homas) Pheby and three children aged 4 to 2 months. George Thomas also seems to have been married before. (There is only one George Thomas Pheby birth registered in the C19th)
Marriages Sep 1892
PHEBY George Thomas Lambeth 1d 722
either
COOLEY Rosina Lambeth 1d 722
or
DAWSON Laura Ada Lambeth 1d 722
More likely to Rosina and is so the marriage might very well have been short lived.
Regards
Valda
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hi
the Charlotte Jutsum is one of mine and did marry Edwin smith
. and Frances did live with the George .t. Pheby . Not sure if she ever married him.
her first child to him was born 1897.Edward.
i was wondering if you had access to Wandsworth prisoner lists and/or they would be in the 1901 census.?
we might find our mystery Henry green there . still haven't found any newspaper reports of the crime at this point either . thank you for all your help.
Jan
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:)
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Sorry. i didn't answer question . Richard green/Jutsum died in w.w.1.
his grandmother Charlotte Sophia Jutsum nee Russell remarried Abraham Moore . they lived in bermondsey . i do not have access tot he 1901 census.
thanks again .
Jan
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It might have been George Pheby who was not able to marry, not Fanny if there was an earlier marriage for him which failed. Or both may not have been able to remarry because of previous living spouses.
1901 census RG13 396 folio 72
24 Neckinger Bermondsey
Abram Moore 50 Head Married Tanner Norwich Norfolk
Sophia Moore 50 Wife Married Chelsea London
George Jutsum 18 Railway porter Earlsfield
Louisa Jutsum 20 Weaver Battersea London
Ellen Jutsum 19 Earlsfield
Charlie Jutsum 14 Battersea London
no relationships given to the younger Jutsums but from the 1891 census they are all stepchildren to Abraham, the children of Chalotte Sophia and George Caleb - no Richard Green/Jutsum with the family.
On the Commonwealth War Graves Commssion the only Richard Jutsum death is
JUTSUM, RICHARD CHARLES Private 121 02/03/1916 Unknown Royal Fusiliers United Kingdom Panel 25 to 27. LOOS MEMORIAL
who is probably this man
Births Mar 1888
JUTSUM Richard Charles Wandsworth 1d 617
recorded as Charles on the 1891 and 1901 censuses - Charlotte Sophia and George Caleb's son.
Of course there would be lots and lots of Richard Greens who died in the First World War so an impossible task to check them.
Richard wasn't with his grandmother on the 1901 census in either surname, or with his mother Fanny.
There were 13 male Green prisoners recorded in London on the 1901 census. One Henry aged 19 born St Lukes in Pentonville prison. 4 Greens in Wandsworth prison - Charles (born Kent aged 32), two Fredericks (born Blackfriars and Westminster aged 24 and 25) and a William (born Birmingham aged 37). Across the whole country there were 51 but only the one Henry, 2 Harrys born Derbyshire and Sussex.
The census index does not allow me to search on 'convicts' but by the look of it all prisoners in Wandsworth are recorded as prisoners and not convicts. There is an earlier distinction between the types of convicted men.
Regards
Valda
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Interesting ??? . If Richard Green/Jutsum known as Dick. was bought up as Ellen's (George and Sophias daughter ) younger brother why isn't he in the 1901 census with Sophia
. Was he with his father Henry green ?
Surely Ellen wouldn't get the story THAT wrong telling her own son that she regarded Dick as her little brother ....
It is all getting very murky ??
thanks
Jan
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Jan
There doesn't appear to be a Richard Jutsum on the 1901 census or an obvious Richard Green. What evidence do you have that he existed? Certainly Ellen's younger brother Richard died in the First World War. Is there some confusion with him?
Regards
Valda
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Hi , I have recently made contact in America with a close relative who repeats the story of the ""Henry Green Hanging :. The difference is he uses the name Richard Green,
"One of Louisa's sister's married one of the Green family (Richard ) I believe who fought bare knuckle and was eventually hanged in Pentonville Prison. .
"
My letter from different source '' MY MOTHER (Ellen b. 1885 .not his grandmother as i thought ) painted a lurid story about the nite before Henry Green was to be hung ".
.
The baby Richard Green, later known as Dick as well, was taken to the goal for the "last '' visit . He was then bought up by the Jutsums as their son.
". Tho the names are mixed up , and your very thorough research( Valda ) says otherwise, this is now two different people from similar generations , separated by the Atlantic saying essentially the same thing .
I know the man (Henry Green )was in the 1891 census and I believe he was in jail at the time .
Any ideas ?
I believe it was for a manslaughter of the shop keeper in a robbery gone wrong but haven't seen any articles.
I am sure I read of a Green doing a similar crime some 10 years earlier and wonder if the family got it all tangle . With the name Green it is so hard to find . The Richard Green bought up as a Jutsum was Richard Charles and his grandparents Sophia and George also had a son Charles .
All very confusing . ??? ??? ::) ::)
My late correspondent who told me the basis to the story would have been an adult when his mother died therefore having an adult perception and memory to the stories told.
He did say his grandmother ,and Henry Greens mother in law Sophia Jutsum was a fantastic story teller. Maybe this is one which stuck ? Thanks for any help or ideas . Fred
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Name: Richard Green
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 18 Mar 1894
Father's name: Henry Green
Mother's name: Frances Green
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bermondsey St Luke
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers
Hi all. So here is the baptism of Richard green (became Jutsum by common usage ) dated 1894.
For him to be a .babe in arms at the jail the nite before the hanging of his father Henry Green the event had to be before march 1895 . In march 1895 George Caleb Jutsum died . He was Fanny Greens father and was meant to be present on the ill fated nite .
Still lookin g. Bye Fred
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Wrong thread again!