RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Chezp on Tuesday 19 August 08 20:28 BST (UK)
-
Hi, I'm new to forums so bear with me please...
I'm looking for any information on my great great grandfather Henry SMITH who married Dinah Ellen GRAY. Henry was born 1842 and died 1882 aged 40. He is buried at Kyme, Lincolnshire. I understand Dinah remarried Francis Elliott after Henry died. I have seen a bit on Dinah's family discussed on this site but am lost with Henry so thought I'd take the plunge and ask for help.
I might be on the wrong track but I think he might be the brother of Christopher, Sarah and Harriott (aka Trainette ?) SMITH who are the children of Bathwell and Charlotte SMITH. Can anyone help? I know in the census Henry's son, my great grandad Frederick Smith, was a nephew in the household of Abraham and Hariett Gray of North Kyme.
Thanks
Chezp
-
Hi
If it helps anyone place the family (again any help gratefully received as I've been going round in circles trying to find them, you'll see the gaps...) the children of Henry and Dinah Ellen SMITH are:
Frederick 1862 Horncastle m Annie LUESBY b Donnington (my gt grandparents later lived Great Hale, nr Sleaford)
Barthwell/Bartholomew 1867 Belton Forest (m) Eliza Ann THURLBY . He was known as Uncle Barthy to my grandmother and her sisters and he died 1923 at Donington but that's all I know of him.
Charlotte 1868 Overton, Derby m ?
Constance 1871 Stamford m ?
Christopher 1874 North Hykeham m ?
Harriet 1877 Lincoln m Herbert HAND
Thomas 1880 North HYkeham m ?
I have my gt grandfather's obituary report of 1928 and it mentions Gray cousins at Metheringham etc but only by their initials. As I mentioned before Gt Grandad Fred was a nephew of Abraham and Harriet Gray of Kyme. His younger brother Christopher is on the 1891 census as nephew of horse dealer John Gray and wife Mary living North Kyme who I believe is Abraham's older brother. There is also a niece Clara Carter.
I'm getting a little confused here. I can't find Henry's birth or marriage but I am thinking maybe Henry SMITH must have had the sister Harriet /Trainette (d/o Bathwell & Charlotte Smith) b1839 Quarrington married to Abraham Gray and another sister Mary Ann b1848 Eagle (d/o Barkwell and Charlotte Smith) married to John Gray? A fellow researcher told me Mary Ann Smith was married to John Coy of South Kyme and then Thomas Carter but I'm wondering if this is a misread and John Coy is actually John Gray. It makes sense with the niece being Clara Carter . . . doesn't it????? ???
Among the 1928 mourners for Fred Smith I can't identify are:
Mr E Smith, Donington (brother);
Mrs W Smith (sister-in-law) Donington;
Mr H Smith (nephew) Donington,
Mrs W Gray (aunt) Donington;
Mr and Mrs J Gray (uncle and aunt) Metheringham;
Mr and Mrs G Harrison (cousin) North Kyme;
Mr G Gray, Mr Eric Gray and Mrs Winter of Great Hale.
Mr and Mrs T Gray
Any clues gratefully received....
Chezp
-
Hi Chezp
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
In 1881 14 Newark Road, North Hyckeham
Frederick age 17 bn Horncastle
Bertie age 15 bn Belton in Forest
Christopher age 6 bn North Hyckeham
are all recorded as nephews of Isaac Robinson Head of the household unmarried age 44 bn Westborough, Lincoln
also in the house is a Sarah Smith, Housekeeper age 36 unmarried bn Skringinton
Rosie
-
and 1881 Henry and Ellen are at 18 Dawsons Court, Lincoln
Henry age 33 bn Carlton
Ellen age 38 bn Sleaford
Charlotte age 13 bn Overton
Constance age 12 bn Stamford
Harriet age 4 bn Lincoln
Thomas age 1 bn North Hyckeham
BIVRI has a baptism for Christopher Smith parents Henry and Ellen at North Wyckeham 7th July 1874
Rosie
-
Hi
In 1871
Tuxford, Nottinghamshire
Sleeping in Vans
Harry Smith mar head 29 travelling with tin ware b Eagle?
Ellen wife 29
Joseph brother in law 13
Fred 5
Barthwell 4 Belton Forest, Leicestershire
Charlotte 3
Constance 3months
/ next to them is the Grey family headed by Joseph and Mary Grey and children;
Ambrose 18
Alice 22
Collin? 16
Fred 11
Aaron 10
Betsy 8
Constance 6
Louis? son 5
Rainworth son 2
deb :)
-
Hello Rosie.
Thank you. You are are my first reply from RootsChat :)
Right, so I've got the children right (except E Smith of Donington Fred's brother on the mourners, so maybe he was born later) and Henry does exist - I was beginning to think he didn't although I've seen his grave in front of Abraham and Harriet Gray's at Kyme.
Now you've raised the question who was uncle Isaac Robinson? I can't place him. As far as I know I don't have any Robinson link. Sarah Smith his housekeeper might be the Sarah daughter of Bathwell and Charlotte born Scredington (?? could that be Skringington?) who I am hoping, but have no proof, is Henry's sister, but I don't know any link to Isaac Robinson.
Henry's got to belong to someone. Do you think he was known under another name? I don't have any positive link to Bathwell apart from family hearsay and unfortunately those who could help me have now passed away. I know my great aunt showed me her grandfather Henry's grave at Kyme and pointed to the Gray graves nearby saying they were family. She mentioned gt grandad Bathwell and it stuck with me but...
Thank you again.
Chezp
-
Hi Deb.
Thank you.
Harry? Well it certainly looks like him doesn't it. Born Eagle now but the family is the same. But it does even out the age difference between Henry/Harry and Ellen. In 1881 census he is 33 she is 38 but this census ties in with them both being the same age and also the same 1842-1882 on his gravestone.
But Joseph Smith brother-in-law? Where's he come from?
Thanks again, this is great.
Chezp
-
Hi Rosie,
Just realised on the 1881 census you sent me the three oldest boys Frederick(17) , Bertie (15) and Christopher (6) are at one address with unknown "uncle Isaac Robinson" and the three girls, Charlotte (13), Constance,(12) Harriet(4) and baby Thomas age 1 are with Henry and Ellen.
Just curious, do you think the boys were "sent away" to learn their trade? I mean Charlotte and Constance were inbetween Bertie and Christopher in age and yet they stayed with their parents. I know gt grandad Fred knew horses as he was eventually a stockman taking stud horses around local farms in the Gt Hale/Kyme/Heckington area.
If Henry was "travelling with tin ware" then Fred must have learnt his trade from someone. I don't know what occupations Fred's younger brothers had. If they are to do with horses then it might explain this. It will be interesting to find out.
Thank you
Chezp
-
Hi Deb.
Yes, so Joseph and Mary Gray in vans next door to Harry/Ellen in Tuxford, Nottinghamshire In 1871. . .
Sleeping in Vans
Harry Smith mar head 29 travelling with tin ware b Eagle?
Ellen wife 29
Joseph brother in law 13
Fred 5
Barthwell 4 Belton Forest, Leicestershire
Charlotte 3
Constance 3months
/ next to them is the Grey family headed by Joseph and Mary Grey and children;
Ambrose 18
Alice 22
Collin? 16
Fred 11
Aaron 10
Betsy 8
Constance 6
Louis? son 5
Rainworth son 2
. . . might be Mr and Mrs J Gray who might be Fred's uncle and aunt living in Metheringham in 1928. I have just looked through my file and found a mention of Joseph Gray b1840 . If he is a brother of Abraham or John Gray then I think the pieces might be starting to fit!
Fingers crossed
Chezp
-
Hi Cheryl,
What a nice surprise to stumble across this post (this is Jo, the 'fellow researcher' you mention).
I thought I would post a few points that might be relevant to help establish links:
Firstly to clarify some details surrounding Mary Ann Carter b. 1856, aunt of Clara Carter.
This is not the same Mary Ann Carter est 1848 (nee Smith, previously Coy who is a direct ancestor of mine).
Mary Ann Carter b. 1856 is the daughter of Thomas Carter est 1797 and his second (much younger!) wife Elizabeth Goodband (both Mary Ann and Clara can be found with Elizabeth on the 1881 census in North Kyme). Thomas was also the grandfather of Thomas Carter est.1846, my g-g grandad, who married Mary Ann Coy (nee Smith)
This family connection to Harriet Smith's Gray family is part of the circumstanial evidence I have come across that suggests my Mary Ann Smith was Bathwell's and Charlotte's daughter.
Since we last spoke I have also visited the church at North Kyme and seen the gravestones for Henry and presumably his mother Charlotte Smith (they are next to each other and next to numerous Gray gravestones, from Harriet and Abraham's family). In a neighbouring plot is also the grave of Lucy Martin, sister of Thomas Carter 1846 which also points to a link to my ancestors. On the basis of the details on Charlotte's headstone I was able to track down her death certificate, on which she is described as the widow of Bathwell Smith and the witness is named as her daughter Harriet Gray (if you are interested I would be more then happy to send you a copy).
From census returns:
Heckington, 1891; A Bartley Smith b. 1864 (Lincolnshire) is with Phoenix (who I believe is also a brother of Abraham) and Lydia Gray but with no relationship named.
Donnington, 1901; A Thomas Smith b. 1881 (lincoln) is with William (who I believe is a son of Harriet and Abrabham) and Sophia Gray named as nephew.
Thomas Smith, would actually be the cousin of William Gray, if the links are you think but I guess as he was a bit younger it may well have been a respect thing.
As my Mary Ann Smith and Thomas Carter had such a big family, I'd be grateful if you could post the names of any other mourners mentioned, so I could cross check them against all the names I have.
Hope that all makes some kind of sense, have to admit my head starts spinning whenever I look into this family!
Best wishes
Jo
-
Hi Rosie,
Just realised on the 1881 census you sent me the three oldest boys Frederick(17) , Bertie (15) and Christopher (6) are at one address with unknown "uncle Isaac Robinson" and the three girls, Charlotte (13), Constance,(12) Harriet(4) and baby Thomas age 1 are with Henry and Ellen.
Just curious, do you think the boys were "sent away" to learn their trade? I mean Charlotte and Constance were inbetween Bertie and Christopher in age and yet they stayed with their parents. I know gt grandad Fred knew horses as he was eventually a stockman taking stud horses around local farms in the Gt Hale/Kyme/Heckington area.
Hi Cheryl
I wonder whether in 1881 the boys were actually nephews of Sarah Smith, perhaps she was 'living together' with Isaac Robinson. Perhaps the boys had just been left with their aunt while their parents went to Lincoln for a visit which happened to coincide with the census, after all their youngest son was only age 1 and bn North Hyckeham.
Were you aware that you can access the 1881 census free of charge on www.familysearch.org ;D
Rosie
-
Hi all
It does seem that these two families travelled with each other ... I have not found henry in 1861 but thought I would post this;
1861
Bassingham, Lincs
List of persons not in houses
Joseph GRAY mar 35 Tinman and brazier b Lincs Branston
Mary wife 34 b Skillington
Ambrose 9 b Skillington
Collin 4 b Ancaster
Frederic 3 b Billington
Aaron 1 b Carlton scrorf??
Bartholomew SMITH head mar 69 chair bottomer b Northamptonshire, grinstote??
Charlotte wife 55 b weedon Barracks
Sarah 18 unm b Lincs Scrichington
Abraham GRAY mar 26 horse dealer b Lincs south Kyme
Harriott wife 24 b Quarrington
John son 3 b Swineshead ?
Charles 1 son b Eagle
will look further
deb :)
-
also in 1861 we have;
Dinah Gray unm hawker 19 b Scredington, Lincs living at the 'Jobbers Arms', 39 Castlegate st, Grantham, Lincs. The people she is lodging with seem unrelated.
At least we know she is single at this stage, which helps with trying to find her marriage cert.,
deb
-
Still trying to find the Greys and smiths in 1841 and 1851 :-\
IGI has this:
Dinah GRAY d/o Christopher Gray and maria
12 JUN 1842 Scredington, Lincoln
Frederick GRAY s/o Christopher Gray and Maria
26 MAY 1844 New Sleaford, Lincoln
Mary Ann Gray d/o Christopher and Maria
12 APR 1837 Leasingham, Lincoln
Henry GRAY s/o Christopher and Maria
31 MAR 1839 Metheringham, Lincoln
Thomas GREY s/o Christopher and Maria
APR 1846 Waddington, Lincoln
deb
-
Bartholomew SMITH head mar 69 chair bottomer b Northamptonshire, grinstote??
Charlotte wife 55 b weedon Barracks
Sarah 18 unm b Lincs Scrichington
deb :)
Well done Deb, ;D ;D
that seems to put Sarah that has the boys staying with her and Isaac Robinson in 1881 as a daughter of Bartholomew and Charlotte
Rosie
-
Hi Rosie and Deb and nice to make contact with you again Jo.
Thanks ever so for all this help. I'm getting a better idea how the family is spread around now with the uncles and aunts looking after the children. And with Harriet Gray named as the daughter on Charlotte's death certificate that is that link proved and crossed off the list ;D
Also with Deb finding Dinah single in 1861 and gt Grandad Fred Smith being born 1862 it really cuts down the marriage date doesn't it. I have tried to find a birth certificate for Fred (and Henry) on FreeBMD as Fred's birthday was August 2nd, but haven't so far, and tonight, with these new shorter dates for a marriage, I just tried to narrow it down and find that but it doesn't bring up anything either. I'm surprised actually. I would have thought the names would be fairly common...
There is a possible marriage for Henry Smith at Horncastle Sept 1/4 1861 but the possible brides don't match - although by coincidence one of them is a Patchett who is also in my line but as far as I know no way connected to this side.
It goes on...
Many thanks, Chezp
-
Hi
I was just wondering if there could be a possibility that Henry Smith did marry Harriet Patchett and have Fred , as there is a gap in ages ...fred =1862 and Barthy= 1867.
re ; Fred 1862 .... In 1881 he is 17 = b 1864 and in 1871 he is 5 =b 1866 :-\
there are a few birth reg for these years , this is the only one for Hornacstle though;
Fred Smith Mar q 1864 Horncastle Lincolnshire
still looking for them in earlier censuses
deb :)
-
Hi Deb,
It is no doubt a possibility that Henry could have been married before, however I don't think the gaps are clear cut. As well as Fred having various dates of birth on censuses Barthy appear to range from 1864 to 1871. Also don't forget there is the brother at Fred's funeral (Mr E Smith), who does not appear with the family on the returns but must fit in somewhere.
Jo
-
Hi
Were Christopher, Bertie and Thomas at the funeral or could the E Smith be one of them but an error with the initial?
Rosie
-
hi all
from page 1;
"another sister Mary Ann b1848 Eagle (d/o Barkwell and Charlotte Smith) married to John Gray? A fellow researcher told me Mary Ann Smith was married to John Coy of South Kyme and then Thomas Carter but I'm wondering if this is a misread and John Coy is actually John Gray. It makes sense with the niece being Clara Carter . . . doesn't it?? "
In 1871;
North Kyme
Mary Ann COY head wid 22 charwoman b Braceby
Betsey dau 2 b North Kyme
CHARLOTTE SMITH visitor wid 67 general hawker b Weedon Barracks Cambridgeshire
so it looks like Jo was correct ;D
deb :)
-
In 1881
Mary Ann ( 42 b Eagle) is def married to Thomas Carter, waggoner living in Mareham Le Fen, Lincolnshire
They have children ;
Betsy Carter, 12...she must be Betsey COY
John 7
William 5
Harriot 2
Lucy Ann 1
Birth reg;
Betsy Coy Jun q 1868 Sleaford
Marriages;
John Coy Jun q 1867 Sleaford = Mary Ann Smith Junq 1867 Sleaford
Mary Ann Coy Mar q 1872 Sleaford = Thomas Carter Mar q 1872 Sleaford
deb
added ..in 1891 Tom and Mary Ann have other children;
William 15
Lucy 11
Annie 9
mary Ann and Thomas Henry 7
Charles 4
I wonder who Clara Carter belongs to?
-
Hi Deb,
With regards to the weddings, a third cousin of mine (contact through internet) has seen the parish records and the witnesses to her marriage to John Coy are Besty Donson and Sarah Lockey and I have a copy of her marriage to Thomas Carter (witnesses his sister, Lucy Carter and her future husband, Timothy Martin). In both cases her father is named as Barkwell Smith (deceased). For her first marriage his profession is given as basket maker, second marriage it is horse dealer. Combined with Charlotte Smith visting her in 1871 (which was just after John Coy died), these have been the only potential parents I can find.
Unfortunatly as Mary Ann Smith is such a common name, date/place of birth are unclear and she cannot be found named as related to either of them on any census returns it has not been something I have been able to prove.
Sorry I should have told you all the information I had about Mary Ann Smith to clarify my position, I was just a bit worried about going off-topic from the thread. The details back to her I am relatively certain of (as much as you can be anyway), since the source is from my g-grandmother's own copy of her birth certificate, in which her mother is named as Mary Ann Carter (late Coy, previously Smith).
Regards
Jo
-
hi
re; ' His younger brother Christopher is on the 1891 census as nephew of horse dealer John Gray and wife Mary living North Kyme who I believe is Abraham's older brother. There is also a niece Clara Carter."
Okay I have found this marriage which would make sense having Clara, the niece , with them;
Mary Ann Carter = John Gray
Dec 1883 Sleaford
In 1881;
North Kyme
Elizabeth Carter head wid 62 dressmaker
MARY ANN dau unm 22 dressmaker
Jane Carter gr dau 8
CLARA Carter gr dau 6
all born North Kyme
I wonder if Thomas Carter and Mary Ann are siblings?
deb
just seen your post Jo ....will read
-
Deb,
If you have a look at my first post, it probably isn't very clear but Mary Ann Carter's relationship to Thomas would I think effectively be half-aunt. The Elizabeth Carter in your post is the second wife of Thomas' Grandad who was also called Thomas.
-
Hi Jo
So sorry ...I went back to page 1 and reread Cheryl's first 2 posts ..should have read a bit further. :-[ :-\
deb
-
Hi, you've all been so busy!! I feel guilty going out :-[ ;D
I'm going to put another spanner in the works now ::)
So I could check which of Fred's siblings were at his funeral, I got the report out and then noticed it says in the second paragraph
"The deceased, who was a native of Lincoln, had resided in the parish for 19 years ..." and also " coffin bore the inscription Frederick Smith died October 2nd, 1928 aged 66 years."
The parish would be Great Hale, near Heckington/N&S Kyme but would the Horncastle he states on the census as his birthplace be classed as
Lincoln as in Lincolnshire the county or do you think it means Lincoln the city?
So, mourners in 1928 were:
Mrs F Smith, (widow) that's Annie nee Luesby of Donington;
Mrs B Hand of Grantham (sister) that's Harriet Smith wife of Herbert /Bertie Hand, son Montague ;
Miss Smith, Metheringham (sister); Must be Charlotte as I've just gone through my file and I have a Constance Smith died 1926
Mr E Smith and Mr T Smith, Donington (brothers); one must be Thomas
Mrs W Smith, Donington, (sister-in-law) - don't know
- so that gives us Harriet, Thomas, Charlotte but no Barthy or Christopher unless Mrs W Smith of Donington is a widow and using her own Christian name? It can't be Barthy's wife as Gt Uncle Barthy married Eliza Ann Thurlby and had a daughter Alice May Smith born 1901 Donington, so maybe Mrs W Smith is Christopher's widow?
I can see Fred's birth dates vary don't they from census to census. . I just don't know which certificate to order. Perhaps one of his brothers or sister might be a better bet (if they are regular dates of course ;)
I have Fred's wedding certificate, Donington 1897 Frederick Smith residence Donington, father Henry Smith deceased, labourer. Witnesses Christopher Smith Surely Fred's brother? and Hillary Richardson (no idea who he/she is, no link on the Luesby side so could be just a friend?). Fred's signiature mark was witnessed by the vicar.
Have I helped? Doubt it! ;D
Chez
-
Hi again
Your Smiths are as bad as my Penfolds ... hiding in certain censuses :-\ ;D
Have you found Dinah Ellen with children (most probably Thomas and Harriet) in 1891?
Also, when did she marry Francis Elliott?
deb
-
Hi Deb.
No I haven't found any further link to Dinah/Ellen in 1891 census. Certainly not as Smith . They seem to disappear.
i've found on website seraphin-angel website she has Dinah/Ellen widow of Henry Smith married FRancis Elliott m 1883. That's a year after henry;s death. Didn't think to look for them under Elliott.
Chez
-
Been offline AGES so glad to be back, and what a lovely suprise to see this thread.
Chez I think you and I have chatted before about this, Im Panderoona aka Seraphim Angel.
Now another person tracing these Smiths believes that Henry was a son of William And Ann Smith which would make him one of my Smiths, as my ancesters were Christopher Gray and Maria Smith (who was d/o William Smith and Ann nee Elliott).
Bathwell Smith was baptised at Cold Higham (near Grimscote Nthants) 21.06.1790 s/o Thomas & Nancy, according to Terence Lees book.
Wife Charlotte was born cir 1804 Weedon Nthants. Now she according to the old folklore married a Matthew Smith - possibly the same person as Bathwell, possibly someone else.
Now I tracked down Matthew Smiths marriage to Charlotte Elliott:
m.12.09.1831 Loughborough Nthants, Matthew had previously been married to Eleanor Smith who was buried at Wigston Two Steeples. He married Eleanor 05.02.1816 also at Loughborough.
Now according to the old folklore, Matthew Smith was one of the sons of Jim Smith of Buckminster who was married to one Seperata Boss. Another child was William Smith who married Ann Elliott and produced Maria who married Chris Gray.
William Smith and Ann (Elliott) both spent their latter years at the Wong, Horncastle, and both were buried at Horncastle in the 1870s.
One would expect to find Charlotte Elliott who married Bathwell/Matthew Smith to be related to the Elliotts of Willoughby, Notts which produced Ann Elliott. But I havent found a link yet.
For sure, Dinah/Ellen Gray was Christopher and Marias daughter. Christopher was killed in 1869 at Wrawby by Brigg after being hit by a runaway horse and gig during Brigg Fair. His wife Maria was buried in 1875 at Heckington.
All this family appear to have ties to the horse trade, indeed my 2xgrt and 1xgrt grandparents had a stables located in Frieston Road, Boston (Lincs).
Now Abraham Gray was son of Charles Gray and Lydia Elliott who was definatley of the Elliott of Willoughby Notts family, making her close kin to Maria Smith.
This Charles Gray was the son of Charles and Charlotte. And I have lately found trace of a marriage:
An extract of a marriage dated 28.05.1804 at St James, Bristol, was copied to Meldreth, Cam in 1830 - the marriage of Charles Gray and Charlotte Hirss.
(what her real surname was I havent worked out yet but thats almost certainly innaccurate).
All of this lends credence to Christopher Gray being close kin of Charles (the elder). His baptism records him as being of Thurlby By Bourne in 1815, s/o Thomas and Charlotte. I find no other trace of a Thomas and Charlotte romany baptism and I am beginning to think it should read Charles....
Of course it could be that one Thomas Gray did briefly liase with the same Charlotte - and there are two candidates for that. Both of those confusingly appear to be sons of Fowk Gray, one being bapt in 1772 and the other in 1798... Still trying to fathom them out!!
Hope this answers a few queries though.
-
PS another source gives Charlotte as w/o Matthew Smith and she is a Boiling/Boyling/Boylen.
IGI shows up Charlotte Boylen, d/o George & Franette c.26.05.1811 Eagle Lincs.
This makes her d/o George Boyling who married Tranette/Franette/Trinity Boswell, and GEORGE later marrying Joyce Tansey/Tanzy/Tansy.
George and Joyce settled at Nettleham Lincs, he dying in 1873 and she in 1885. George is a presumed (and reputed) son of Caesar Boyling.
Caesar Boyling (var) married 1 Mary Royston 1768 Boston Lincs and 2 Sarah Smith 1780 Wrawby (by Brigg) Lincs.
Caesar known to have had by Mary:
Sam (1769 Boston) Tom (1775 Coventry) Ambrose (1777) Coventry and by Sarah:
John b.cir 1781 Wolverhampton and Sarah c.1784 Spalding who married Zachariah Boswell in 1809 Kirton In Lindsay.
By Joyce Tansey George is known to have had Salome Ellen Boyling c.1823 Scampton Lin who married William Gray c.1822 Ancaster s/o Wm Gray who married Tabitha Smith.
-
Hi An65.
Yes, I think we have spoken somewhere before - to one of you at least!! ;D
I'm in a bit of a mess but I've had some great help so far - Rosie and Deb are brilliant and then I remade contact with Jo too so this forum is certainly worth joining.
You've supplied a lot of names and info which I'll go through (it all looks a bit daunting but I'll write it out in tree form, I find it easier that way!).
One thing - if this turns out to be the same Henry Smith (who you mention someone else is researching and thinks is son of William and Ann Smith) if I've read it right, does that mean that Dinah/Ellen Gray married her uncle?
ie Henry could be a son of William and Ann Smith
and
William and Ann Smith had a daughter Maria Smith married Christopher Gray who had a daughter Dinah/Ellen?
and
Dinah/Ellen Gray married Henry Smith
I think they were both born 1842 according to one census, Henry was because it is on his grave, but I suppose with big families it might be possible might it? If Henry was born 1842 but he had an older sister Maria who married young then maybe she could have had a daughter born the same year as him.
Would this suggest my Henry is not the same Henry son of William and Ann?
Also - I have looked on the IGI and found Harriette Smith b13 May 1838 Quarrington, Lincs the daughter of Charlotte and Matthew Smith. Now on 1881 census Harriet Smith, wife of Abraham Gray was born 1839 Old Quarrington. Jo has just sent me, two days ago, (thanks to this forum)details of the death certificate of Charlotte Smith and Harriet is named as daughter present at death, so that seems to fit in OK doesn't it? Charlotte is buried in Kyme churchyard with Henry Smith and the Abraham Gray family (all lined up in a row).
Chez
-
Oh and in 1871 Henry (down as Harry) at Tuxford says he was born in Eagle, so that is a link with the other Charlotte you mention.
Ohh I'm getting dizzy ::)
Chez
-
Hi An65.
One thing - if this turns out to be the same Henry Smith (who you mention someone else is researching and thinks is son of William and Ann Smith) if I've read it right, does that mean that Dinah/Ellen Gray married her uncle?
ie Henry could be a son of William and Ann Smith
and
William and Ann Smith had a daughter Maria Smith married Christopher Gray who had a daughter Dinah/Ellen?
and
Dinah/Ellen Gray married Henry Smith
Also - I have looked on the IGI and found Harriette Smith b13 May 1838 Quarrington, Lincs the daughter of Charlotte and Matthew Smith. Now on 1881 census Harriet Smith, wife of Abraham Gray was born 1839 Old Quarrington. Jo has just sent me, two days ago, (thanks to this forum)details of the death certificate of Charlotte Smith and Harriet is named as daughter present at death, so that seems to fit in OK doesn't it? Charlotte is buried in Kyme churchyard with Henry Smith and the Abraham Gray family (all lined up in a row).
Chez
Yes that is correct - that hypothesis is that Dinah married her uncle Henry. Maria Smith was born in 1817 at Willoughby On The Wolds, Notts, and married Christopher in 1836 at Rauceby Lincs.
As for Charlotte and Matthew aka Bathwell, Im pretty sure that is accurate as well.
you also mentioned:
"Oh and in 1871 Henry (down as Harry) at Tuxford says he was born in Eagle, so that is a link with the other Charlotte you mention."
You have to remember most Romanies dont know where they were born so would hazard a guess. It also depends on what the enumerator asked them. There is all the difference in the world between "where were you born" and "where are you from".
-
An65, do you have any idea what kind of evidence there is that his Henry was the son of William and Ann Smith, as
all the stuff that has come out on here all seems to point to Henry being the daughter of Charlotte Smith?
Aside from his children frequently being found with Abraham and Harriet (Smith) Gray's immediate family (which surely suggests a closer relationship then the much more distant one Henry would have with them if he was the son William and Ann), I think Rosie's find that names three of his sons as nephews of a Sarah Smith, 'born' Scredington around the same age as Barthwell and Charlotte's daughter provides pretty strong evidence.
Out of interest, would it have been acceptable for a gypsy woman to take more then one partner? I'd kind of assumed that, that would be the prerogative of men only, and it would make a nice change to see women being treated equally in the past!
Regards, Jo
-
Back in those times yes, it was extremely common.
I agree it seems more likely Henry belongs with Bathwells family, and as far as I know there is no direct evidence to suggest otherwise.
I do think there is a strong link between Bathwell and William Smith as well mind you. Just cant prove it (yet).
-
regarding polygamy:
three of the daughters of No Name Heron - Millia, Eliza and Uri demonstrate this:
Millia married Pyramus Gray and stayed with him for life.
Eliza married first Jack (John Budd) Gray (brother of Pyramus) and later Oseri Gray his cousin.
Uri married first the same Jack Gray and later Leonard Printall.
Jack (John Budd) Gray was married many times, to Uri and Eliza, and also to Maria Boswell AND her daughter Harriet Williams, and lived out his days after transportation with one Frances Dowlen.
-
HI
Just going back to Deb's suggestion that maybe the reason I couldn't find Fred's birth with Henry and Ellen as parents was because Henry had been married before - well I went on FreeReg last night and tried to find the children of Henry and Ellen. (I'd heard the site has been updated over the bank holiday weekend so I thought I'd try again. You can imagine the numbers involved for SMITH !). I narrowed it down to just Henry as father.
Anyway, had trouble finding most of them BUT don't know if this is relevant or if I'm going completely off the rails - of the two I did find within reasonable dates were these:
Charles Frederick Smith bpt Feb 1863, Christ Church, Radford, Notts, son of Henry Smith and Ann Stuart. Their abode Park Side, Radford, Notts, Father's occupation Lace merchant
and
Charlotte Smith bpt May 1868, St Mary's, Newark, daughter of Henry and Ann Smith. Their abode Water La?? (Lane?) Newark. Father's occupation labourer.
and just to confuse matters more there was a Harriette Smith within her dates d/o Henry Charles Smith and Mary Allen in George St Radford. He was a shoe manufacturer.
So to confirm or eliminate I now think I need to know what sort of area Park Side Radford was in the 1860s - ie an actual road or land. Also would lace merchant be a traveller's job does anyone know, or would it be shop based - and in Newark, Water Lane?... and my henry later was selling tinware which is a bit different to lace.
What do you think? Coincidence ? ???
Chez
-
hi Edwina
Ummmm .... what if Henry and Dinah didn't marry til later? (still looking for the elusive marriage :-\ )
I have found this birth;
Frederick Grey sept q 1864 Horncastle vol 7a p 487
deb :)
-
Hi
An extracted IGI entry
Christopher Smith s/o Henry and Ellen
07 JUL 1874 North And South Hykeham, Lincoln
this could be the reg;
Christopher Smith sept q 1874 Lincoln
vol 7a p 478
deb
-
Frederick 1862 Horncastle m Annie LUESBY b Donnington (my gt grandparents later lived Great Hale, nr Sleaford)
Barthwell/Bartholomew 1867 Belton Forest (m) Eliza Ann THURLBY . He was known as Uncle Barthy to my grandmother and her sisters and he died 1923 at Donington but that's all I know of him.
Hi I wonder if his marriage cert may help with names...
Bartholomew Smith June q 1900 Spalding Lincolnshire
Eliza Thurlby 1900 Jyne q Spalding Lincolnshire
vol 7a p 836
1901
Donington, Church Street
Bartholomew Smith head mar 30 ag lab b Stamford Rutland
Eliza Ann wife 19 b Lincolnshire, Ostourby?
Alice may dau 7 months b Donington
Christopher Smith brother Single 24 ag lab b North Hykeham
ummmm .... where is Barthy in 1891?
deb
-
The Baptism of Christopher Smith s/o Henry & Ellen is extremely interesting, because my Grt Grandad Ambrose Grays birth certificate states he was born in Nth Hykeham on 1873.
Ambrose was the grandson of Christopher Gray and Maria Smith.
Furthermore, Christopher Gray died in 1869, which could be a clue as to the name the parents chose.....
-
Bertha Smith d/o Henry & Ellen bapt 13,06.1866 Billingborough Lincs (IGI)
-
hi
An65 ... Will see if I can spot more.
I wonder if this is Barthy in 1891 ....
High street, Sleaford, Huckington
Felix Gray mar 48 horse dealer and publican b Lincs Navenby
Lydia gray wife 46 b Bourne
Thomas Gray son 22 horse dealer and groom b Bourne Lincs
Lydia Beeton? Weeton 12 niece b Moulton Chapel
Kate beeton 10 niece b Great Hale
Kate Kine? 16 General Servant b South Kyme
BARTLEY SMITH 27 servant ostler groom b Lincoln
deb
-
Poss I guess - thats Phoenix Gray married Lydia Newberry.
Modification here:
I should add that Phoenix Gray was s/o Charles Gray and Lydia Elliott, and BROTHER of Abraham Gray who married Harriet (Traynett) Smith the d/o Matthew aka Bathwell and Charlotte.
-
Blimey ... so confusing ...
I wonder if Barthwell Smith (186?) was registered as Matthew?
I need to reread again ... :-\ ;D
deb
added ...still need to find Dinah who remarried to ??Elliott in the 1891 census , I think
-
Dinah/Ellen married Francis Elliott b.cir 1833 Leic previously married to Sarah Mills b.cir 1832 Newark.
He was s/o Edward Elliott and Martha he being born 1802 Willoughby On The Wolds Notts and brother of Ann Elliott who married William Smith.
-
Okay An65 ;D
when did they marry? ...I cannot find them in 1891
-
I dont know ;D sometime after Francis and Sarahs last child: Christalena in 1878
-
Hi ...yipppeeee found them in 1891
Louth
Ship Farm
Travelling Vans
Francis ELLETT mar 59 Travelling Barber b Buckminster
Ellen ELLETT wife 54 b Skreklington
Ester Ellett dau 21 b louth
Constance Ellett dau 19 b Loughboro... is she the daughter of Henry Smith and Dinah ..? Constance Smith was b c 1870
deb :)
-
ooo could this be it
Francis Ellett Dec q 1883 Grantham
Ellen Gray dittovol 7a p 938
deb ;D
-
ah! KNEW I had an email with it on somewhere!!
Ellen Gray m. Francis Elliott 15.12.1883 Grantham both of Grantham, he a wid she listed as a spinster!! Its possible she and Henry were never officially married.
-
better late than never!!
-
;D
-
I've also been trying to figure out who Isaac Robinson was and how he was connected ,,,, he was the uncle of Fred, Barthy, Christopher in 1881... (single and aged 44) :-\
I see his parents were Stephen Robinson and Catherine Hayes who married 10 JUN 1824 Westborough Cum Doddington, Lincoln, (IGI)....
deb
-
1901
Louth
in Caravan
Brackenborough rd
Frank ELLETT mar 71 horse dealer stable b Lincs Candlesby
Ellen wife 68 Scredington
Herbert SMITH grandson 7 b Louth
deb ;D
-
There was a family called Robinson who were travellers, but I only know of one set of names. James and Whisby Robinson (nee Smith) They were certainly having children in the Lincs area. There was Charles 1826 Scrivelsby Lin, Onan (female) 1827 Hawerby cum Beesby, and Repentance 1828 Doddington On Bain. There was also a son, Sampson b.cir 1830 Norfolk or Suffolk.
The link is probably with Whisby Smith........?
-
You've done some impressive stuff there Deb, that 1901 return with grandson Herbert Smith is a great find!
I guess it would make semse if Ellen and Henry never married, seeing as there is no obvious record.
Cheryl, perhaps it would be worth investing in Henry's death certificate as if it mentions Ellen there is a chance it might mention it, if indeed they wern't married? There is only one record that fits based on his MI; Henry Smith 40 July-Aug-Sept Sleaford 7a 259.
Regards, Jo
-
Hi Jo
Thanks for that :D I wonder who Herbert belongs to?
deb
-
I can't say I fancy our chances of finding out atleast until the 1911 census is available! With Francis and Sarah having so many girls and the Elliott/ Smith family links there must be a good chance that one of them married a Smith, on top of the potential for it to be Ellen's grandson.
Still it provides another lead, which you never know could proide the crucial link to bring everything together later on!
-
Hi again
Just found this on the 1851
Spalding, deanery of South Holland
Christopher Smith unm lodger 19 hawker of tapes, cottons b Donington (transcribed Dorrington)
Charlotte Smith unm 20 ditto
C Smith (female) 15 unm ditto
lodging with a few hawkers of tape, a skinner, brazier and a grinder
Now your Christopher s/o Bathwell and Charlotte was bapt 23 FEB 1834 Brothertoft, Lincoln, extracted.
but there is also a Charlotte Smith d/o Matthew Smith and Charlotte bapt 01 JUL 1832 Bicker, Lincoln, extracted and
Constance Smith d/o Matthew Smith and Charlotte bapt 20 MAR 1836 Caythorpe, Lincoln, extracted ...she could be the female C Smith above ...
what do you think?
I wonder if they are other siblings??
deb
-
found that one a while back and came to exactly the same conclusion.... :)
-
An65 ;D ;D ;D
I have been ;ooking for Harriet/Trainette in 1851 and 1841 ...to no avail , also Barthy/Matthew and Charlotte are nowhere to be seen ...arrghhhh
I did find an older Christiana Smith with son, Thomas Lovell ...are they yours/
deb :)
-
Harriet/Tranette Smith bapt 1838 Quarrington d/o Matthew & Charlotte.
Sarah and Christopher c/o Bathwell & Charlotte, Harriet/Tranette Constance and Charlotte c/o Matthew & Charlotte thats all I have on that fam.
BUT I would say its FAR more likely Henry Smith related to these being born in 1842 than to William and Ann who would have been too old.....
No idea about Christiana Smith and Thomas Lovell BUT both could well be Romany.
-
here ya go Harriette Smith d/o Matthew/Charlotte c.13.05.1838 Quarrington Lincs
(IGI)
oh, PS dont forget there was no rule about including people who didnt live in houses in the early census returns.
My Gt x 3 Grandad Christopher Gray appears exactly NO where, cos he died in 1869 in Wrawby by Brigg, and the earliest return including my family is 1871 where his widow Maria turns up with the rest of the kids.
-
Hi Jo, Deb and An65
You're too fast for me and you've done a great job. I can see you love a puzzle ;D THis is fantastic. Thank you so much.
Yes I'll order Henry's certificate to see if Dinah/Ellen is the informant - does look as if they weren't married doesn't it. Maybe that earlier Ann I found (if right of course) died. Also maybe the younger children were Dinah/Ellens and only the oldest two were Henry and Ann's.
The earlier Smiths - Christopher, Charlotte and C that Deb found, they look promising too .. It points to Bathwell maybe being also known as Matthew yes? I've a later link with Donington as Fred Smith (Henry's son) married Annie Luesby of Donington. And in an old family birthday book I've found the entry "Uncle Barthy died 1923 Donington)
I don't know of a grandson Herbert Smith (in 1901 census) - the first son I know of Fred Smith and Annie Luesby is Henry (Sonny) born 1905. There is a later son Felix . Several times another son has been mentioned in the family but not known for sure, so Herbert is a mystery to me. Maybe he is a son of one of Fred's siblings? The birth dates fall wrong between the census don't they so I don't think we'll know anymore on him until 1911 census.
So, I think my best bet now is to get Henry's death certificate and Bartholomew's marriage certificate yes? I'll let you know as soon as I get them.
Chez
-
Actually, probably just Henry's certificate. Bartholomew's won't really give me anything new will it. I've got his wife and he's on census.
Chez
-
hi Edwina
Nice to see you again :)
I have just gone back and reread this thread .....to try to figure out who Herbert could belong to .
in 1901 we have Barthy with wife Eliza and child and his single brother Christopher.
Constance is with Ellen Elliott/Ellett in 1891 , but dies 1926
Harriet and Herbert Hand (and child) are lodging with John and Eliza E Gray.
That leaves us with Charlotte and Thomas...
ahh Thomas Smith is with William and Sophia Gray (who have a son named Herbert) in 1901...he is single and 20.
There are also a few herbert Smith birth registrations ... for 1894
deb :)
-
ummm have we found Constance in 1901 yet?
deb
-
hi again
i wonder if this is Constance in 1901
St Swithin, Lincolnshire
Cameron Street
Albert E Hollinshead head mar 30 Journeyman tailor b Lincs
Constance wife 30 b Lincoln
marriage;
Constance Smith = Albert Edwin Hollinshead
Sept q 1895 Lincoln
7a 1008
deb
-
Among the 1928 mourners for Fred Smith I can't identify are:
Mr E Smith, Donington (brother);
Mrs W Smith (sister-in-law) Donington;
Mr H Smith (nephew) Donington,
Mrs W Gray (aunt) Donington;
Mr and Mrs J Gray (uncle and aunt) Metheringham;
Mr and Mrs G Harrison (cousin) North Kyme;
Mr G Gray, Mr Eric Gray and Mrs Winter of Great Hale.
Mr and Mrs T Gray
Any clues gratefully received....
Chezp
could Mr H Smith be HERBERT?
deb:)
-
Re: William Gray and Sophia.
William Gray was b.1862 Navenby, s/o Abraham & Harriet.
Sophia Gray was b.cir 1860 Notts d/o Chris & Maria
-
Hi An65
i have searched for Chris and Maria and like you could not see them ... I didn't know about Sophis b 1860 .... I was looking for these children ;
Dinah GRAY d/o Christopher Gray and maria
12 JUN 1842 Scredington, Lincoln
Frederick GRAY s/o Christopher Gray and Maria
26 MAY 1844 New Sleaford, Lincoln
Mary Ann Gray d/o Christopher and Maria
12 APR 1837 Leasingham, Lincoln
Henry GRAY s/o Christopher and Maria
31 MAR 1839 Metheringham, Lincoln
Thomas GREY s/o Christopher and Maria
APR 1846 Waddington, Lincoln
did they have more in between Thomas and Sophia?
deb
-
Well spotted Deb,
If Herbert Smith is indeed Fred's nephew, then it is possibility that he could be the son of mourner Mr E Smith (brother) at the funeral. It doesn't seem to obviously fit that he would be the son the three other brothers we definitely know about, based on their circumstances in 1901 (although of course both Barthy and Christopher could both have fathered a child at that time) and there is the Donington link.
-
Christopher Gray and Maria Smith
c.05.02.1815 Thurlby By Bourne Lin s/o Thomas & Charlotte Christopher married Maria Smith (05.09.1836 at Rauceby) d/o William Smith and Ann Elliot c.30.03.1817 Willoughby On The Wolds Notts.
Christopher was killed in an accident with a runaway horse and gig on the eve of Brigg Fair at Wrawby (by Brigg) 07.08.1869. Maria lived until 1875, and was buried in Heckington 19.04.1875.
Their children Were:
Mary Ann c.12.04.1837 Leasingham Lincs married Clark Gray s/o Charles & Charlotte.
Henry c.21.03.1839 Metheringham buried 23.04.1839 Metheringham.
Dinah (aka Ellen) c.12.04.1842 Scredington married Henry Smith and later Francis Elliot s/o Edward and Martha (he in turn being brother of Ann Elliot who married Wm Smith).
Frederick c.26.05.1844 Sleaford believed to have died 1932 at Boston. He married Angelina.
Thomas c.19.04.1846 Waddington m.1870 Abigail Gray d/o Charles & Charlotte.
Samuel c.30.04.1848 Branston Lin (always gave place of birth as Metheringham on Census) married Deliah Smith b.1848 Ludborough d/o Thomas Smith and Mary Brown. these are my grt x2 grandparents. They were married 1871 at Horncastle.
Deliah c.1849 (damaged record) Branston (no other info)
Francis c.21.07.1850 Ancaster married Jane
Abraham c.21.08.1856 Billinghay married Martha
William c.29.08.1856 Billingborough (no other info poss same person as Abraham)
Sophia b.cir 1860/1 Willoughby or Eastwood Notts married
William Gray s/o Abraham & Harriet.
-
hi :D
I wonder if this birth cert may help
Eric Gray 1904 Sept q Sleaford
7a 468
There was an Eric Gray at the funeral
deb
sorry An65 ...will reread :-\
-
John Elliot c.1800 Willoughby On The Wolds married Lydia Newberry/Newborough and had:
Charlotte c.1839 Castle Bytham, who married Charles Gray c.1839 Harmston Lin s/o Charles Gray and Lydia Elliot (sis of John c.1808 Willoughby).
Charles & Lydia also had:
John b.cir 1833 Brauncwell married Eliza
Abraham c.1835 Kyme Lin married Harriet/Trainette Smith
Clarke c.1838 Coleby married Mary Ann Gray d/o Chris & Maria
Frederick c.1839 Tattershall married Mary
Joseph (cant find data) married Mary Ann Newberry/Newborough.
William c.1842 Bentry ? or Burton married Mary Ann Elliot
Phoenix c.1842 Harmston married Lydia Newberry/Newborough
Emily c.1843 Wellingore married James Bond
Abigail c.1847 Billinghay married Thomas Gray s/o Chris & Maria.
-
The convolutions with 1st cousin etc marriages of this tree make my eyes bleed........ ;D
-
Hello.
Where do you get all this information from so quickly?
This is my first venture into a "live" forum like this and you've uncovered.... or should I say unravelled. so much and I've spent ages going round in circles!
This may or may not help as it is later dates but as we are mentioning more and more Grays, it is another connection with the GRAY family -
On the Gray side, I have a photo of "Shep" Gray of Great Hale, nr Heckington, Lincs who, according to my mum, "Uncle Shep" had a "shop or maybe a mobile shop" around the village circa 1940s. It was in my grandmother's photos , also via my Smith family, namely my gt aunt Mary Grimes (nee Smith) helped look after the children of Tom and Mary Gray in Great Hale.
I've just gone back through my file on Gray and because of this info I'd been in touch with Tom and Mary's grandson so, I think I've now identified Eric Gray the E Gray on Fred Smith's obituary - his nephew (T & M's grandson) sent me details of Eric Gray b 1904 d 1986, son of Tom and Mary nee Waddington. (Tom born 1868 and Mary b 1870). info on the other siblings but I don't want to lose track on my Smiths right now - I'm lost enough already! ::)
-
Oh I didnt pick up the info quickly. Ive been tracing them for the past 18 years ;D
-
Among the 1928 mourners for Fred Smith I can't identify are:
Mr E Smith, Donington (brother);
Mrs W Smith (sister-in-law) Donington;
Mr H Smith (nephew) Donington,
Mrs W Gray (aunt) Donington;
Mr and Mrs J Gray (uncle and aunt) Metheringham;
Mr and Mrs G Harrison (cousin) North Kyme;
Mr G Gray, Mr Eric Gray and Mrs Winter of Great Hale.
Mr and Mrs T Gray
Any clues gratefully received....
Chezp
could Mr H Smith be HERBERT?
deb:)
okay so hopefully we have identified a few more mourners;
Mr H Smith nephew = Herbert
Eric Smith = s/o Tom and Mary (Waddington)
do you have a Florence Gray anywhere in the family ... found this marriage: There is a Mrs Winter who is a mourner. Found a Florence d/o Ambro? and Harriet
Florence B Gray Jun q 1916 spouse =Winter Peterborough
Walter W WinterJune q 1916 spouse= Gray Peterborough
Mr and Mrs T Gray ... perhaps Tom and Mary Gray parents of Eric
deb
-
Hi Deb.
I can't see a Florence Gray in the info I have. For Tom and Mary Gray's children born between 1894 and 1906 I have: Felix, Clark, Hugh, Tom, William, Lydia, Leslie, Sidney, Eric and Ernest. (just realised that is a second E so the E Gray could be either Eric or Ernest).
Chez
-
Hi
I thought I'd go through and put all the info that's come up in date order and its certainly looking a lot clearer now. Here's what we've got and it's quite a bit:
1790. Bathwell Smith bpt Cold Higham near Grimscote, Northants 21.06.1790 s/o Thomas and Nancy Smith (according to (*))
1804. Charlotte b cira 1804 Weedon, Northants. According to the old folklore she married Matthew Smith (possibly Bathwell).
1831. Matthew Smith married Charlotte Elliot 12.09.1831 Loughborough, Northants. Matthew had previously been married to Eleanor Smith who was buried at Wigston Two Steeples. He married Eleanor 05.02.1816 also at Loughborough. According to the old folklore, Matthew Smith was one of the sons of Jim Smith of Buckminster who was married to Seperata Boss. Another child was William Smith who married Ann Elliott and produced Maria Smith who married Christopher Gray. William and Ann Smith lived at Horncastle. Both buried there in 1870s.
Children of Christopher and Maria were Mary Ann Gray 1837, Henry Gray 1839, Dinah Gray 1842, Frederick Gray 1844 and Thomas Gray 1846. IGI
1832. Charlotte Smith d/o Matthew Smith and Charlotte bp 01 Jul 1832 Bicker, Lincoln. IGI
1834. Christopher Smith s/o Matthew Smith and Charlotte bp 23 Feb 1834 Brothertoft IGI
1836. Constance Smith d/o Matthew Smith and Charlotte bp 20 Mar 1836 Caythorpe, Lincoln. IGI
1838. Harriett/Tranette Smith d/0 Matthew and Charlotte bp 13.05.1838 Quarrington IGI
1843. Sarah Smith d/o Barthwell and Charlotte Smith bp 28 May 1843 St ANdrew's Scredington. Abode Scredington Lane, father;s occupation chair mender. Just found on FreeReg
1848. Mary Ann Smith, daughter of Barkwell Smith born
1851. Spalding
Christopher Smith unm 19 lodger Hawker or tapes & cottons b Donington
Charlotte Smith unm 20 ditto
C Smith female unm 15 ditto
(*) Moderator Comment: References to a living person removed at that person's request.
-
1861. Jobber’s Arms, 39 Castlegate Street, Grantham
Dinah Gray unm aged 19. Hawker b Scredington
1861. Bassingham. Lincs, not in houses
Joseph Gray 35 tinman and brazier b Branston, Lincs
Mary Gray wife 34 b Skillington
Ambrose Gray son 9 b Skillington
Collin Gray son 4 b Ancaster
Frederic Gray son 3 b Billingborough
Aaron Gray son 1 b Carlton Scroop
with
Bartholomew Smith 69 Chair bottomer b Grinscote, Northamptonshire
Charlotte Smith wife, 55 b Weedon Barracks
Sarah Smith un 18 b Scrichington?
With
Abraham Gray 26 Horse dealer b South Kyme
Harriet Gray wife 24 b Quarrington (Bathwell and Charlottes daughter)
John Gray son 3 b Swineshead
Charles Gray son 1 b Eagle
1861 Navenby. Barthwell Smith died 21 Nov 1861 aged 71 Navenby. (Daughter Sarah Smith informant)
1867. Mary Ann Smith daughter of Barkwell Smith basket maker (deceased) married John Coy.
1869. Wrawby by Brigg. Christopher Gray, father of Dinah, killed after being hit by a runaway horse and gig during Brigg Fair.
1871. Tuxford, Nottinghamshire Sleeping in vans
Harry Smith 29 b Eagle travelling with tinware
Ellen Smith 29
Joseph Smith b-I-law 13
Fred Smith aged 5
Barthwell Smith aged 4 b Belton Forest
Charlotte Smith 3
Constance Smith 3 months
Next to
Joseph Gray
Mary Gray
Ambrose 18
Alice 22
Colin? 16
Fred 11
Aaron 10
Betsy 8
Constance 6
Louis? 5
Rainworth 2
1871. North Kyme
Mary Ann Coy head wid 22 charwoman b Braceby
Betsy Coy dau 2 b North Kyme
Charlotte Smith visitor widow 67 general hawker. B Weedon Barracks
1872. Mary Ann Coy daughter of Barkwell Smith horse dealer (deceased) married Thomas Carter
1874. North Hykeham
Christopher Smith born 7 July, s/o Henry and Ellen
1875. Maria Gray, mother of Dinah Gray buried at Heckington.
-
1881 .14 Newark Road, North Hykeham
Isaac Robinson head aged 44
Sarah Smith housekeeper aged 36 bSkringington
Frederick Smith aged 17 b Horncastle
Bertie Smith Aged 15 b Belton in Forest
Christopher Smith aged 6 b North Hykeham
1881. 18 Dawson’s Court, Lincoln
Henry Smith aged 33 b Carlton
Ellen aged 38 b Sleaford
Charlotte aged 13 b Overton
Constance aged 12 b Stamford
Harriet aged 4 b Lincoln
Thomas aged 1 b North Hykeham
1881 Mareham Le Fen, Lincs
Thomas Carter
Mary Ann Carter 42 b Eagle
Betsy Carter 12 (Betsy Coy)
John Carter 7
William Carter 5
Harriot Carter 2
Lucy Ann Carter 1
1882. North Kyme
Henry Smith died aged 40 (I've ordered death certificate this morning)
1883. Ellen Gray m Francis Elliott 15.12.1883 Grantham. Both of Grantham. He a widower. B c1833 Leic, previously married to Sarah Mills b c 1832 Newark. Their last child Christalena b1878. Ellen says she is a spinster so looks as if she and Henry were never officially married.
1889. North KymeCharlotte Smith died aged 86 North Kyme. (Daughter Harriet Gray informant)
1891. Ship Farm, Louth, travelling vans
Francis Ellet mar 59 travelling barber b Buckminster
Ellen Ellet wife 54 b Skeklington
Ester Ellet dau 21 b Louth
Constance Ellet dau 19 b Loughborough (Constance Smith?)
1891 .Thomas Carter
Mary Ann Carter
William Carter 15
Lucy Carter 11
Annie Carter 9
Ann Carter 7
Thomas Henry Carter 7
Charles Carter 4
1891 Heckington
Phoenix Gray
Lydia Gray
Bartley Smith b1864 Lincolnshire
1891 Donington
William Gray
Sophia Gray
Thomas Smith b1881 Lincoln
1901 Brackenborough Road, Louth, in caravan
Frank Ellett mar 71 horse dealer stable b Candlesby, Lincs
Ellen wife 68 b Scredington
Herbert Smith grandson 7 b Louth
Phew. A lot eh? Thank you. Chez
-
Chez
That's great .... now we can focus ....errr maybe ;D Great job on summarizing...i am still trying to figure out who MR E Smith (brother) is? If we could find them in 1851 and 1841 I am sure it would reveal more ...unfortunately I CANNOT see them at all ...argghhhhh
deb :)
-
I have just realised I have been calling you Edwina ... eeekkk...I have no idea where that came from ,.... maybe another thread I am following ...sorry :-[ :P
deb ;D
-
hi again
According to IGI (submitted) Barthwell had a sister;
BROWNETTA SMITH d/o Thomas Smith and Nancy
09 FEB 1794 Cold Higham, Northampton
I wonder if Brownetta and family could help us follow Barthwell...do we have any info on her?
deb :)
-
back again
a baptism;
Mary Ann Smith d/o BATHWELL SMITH and ELEANOR
25 NOV 1821 Cottingham, Northampton
could this be another
ELIZABETH SMITH d/o BARTHWELL SMITH and ELLEN
13 JAN 1820 Thornton, Leicester
deb
-
Chez,
Great to see it all summarised like that. I think the chances that the Constance Ellet who is with Francis and Ellen in 1891 is pretty high. There is not a Constance Ellet with Francis, his wife Sarah and eight of their children, when they are in Braceborough Road, Louth in 1881. Can't find them on 1871 yet, but as they have children either side of Constance's age with them it seems a bit of a coincidence that there isn't one there and the one that later appears fits with Constance Smith's details.
Deb,
I think Brownetta is another one of the names that appears on Ann's fantastic website as marrying Wisdom Smith (c. 5/6/1796 Twyford, Leics). According to that site they had one daughter called Lucy c5.4.1814, Bainton, Nthants, there are no other details for her although Wisdom seems to have had a couple of other wives so I think we might need Ann again to explain!
-
do you have a Florence Gray anywhere in the family ... found this marriage: There is a Mrs Winter who is a mourner. Found a Florence d/o Ambro? and Harriet
Florence B Gray Jun q 1916 spouse =Winter Peterborough
Walter W WinterJune q 1916 spouse= Gray Peterborough
Mr and Mrs T Gray ... perhaps Tom and Mary Gray parents of Eric
deb
Florence Gray d/o Ambrose and Harriet was my Grandmother. She didnt marry a Winter so thats not her Im afraid.
-
The only info I have on Brownetta Smith is already known to you Im afraid. What became of her/her family (if she had one) I have not been able to find out.
-
Hi
Glad you liked the summary - it's certainly made it easier for me to follow.
I've found a note of entries I made from another of my late great aunts. Another birthday book which mentions several of the Gray family's birthdays strengthening the close link the Smiths and Grays must have had, particularly around Great Hale and Heckington from the 1900s onwards ie Lydia Gray 1900-1927 and "Lydia's mother" Jan 8 1870. William Gray July 21 1899, Hugh Gray Aug 9 1896, Eric GRay Aug 11 1904. They must have been close to have kept these details.
Oh and Deb - I had noticed you calling me Edwina but didn't want to say anything... :-[
Chez
-
Chez,
Deb,
I think Brownetta is another one of the names that appears on Ann's fantastic website as marrying Wisdom Smith (c. 5/6/1796 Twyford, Leics). According to that site they had one daughter called Lucy c5.4.1814, Bainton, Nthants, there are no other details for her although Wisdom seems to have had a couple of other wives so I think we might need Ann again to explain!
I wonder if Brownetta changed her name ...I have found this on IGI
Wisdom SMITH s/o Wisdom and HANNAH
05 JUN 1796 Twyford, Leicester
exact same day as they married ....Coincidence or what?? :o
Or was Wisdom married to Hannah and baptised hi son the same day he married Brownetta?? :o
deb :)
-
Hi Deb,
Sorry for not making it all that clear but the date I have noted is for Wisdom Smith's christening rather then his marriage (Brownetta would have been about 2 at this time!).
Hope you aren't too confused,
Regards,
Jo
-
Jo
how embarassing ,,,, I have just realised my mistake ... I am crawling under the table at this very moment ...hee hee :-[ :-X
deb
-
I also see a Wisdom Smith married a Maria Elet IGI ext
01 JUL 1818 Saltby, Leicester,
seems like the Smiths/Grays/Elliott/Ellett families are totally intertwined ...
arghhhhh ...I also cannot see Francis and Sarah ellett/Elliott in 1871 or 1861 ...
deb
-
Hi all
Have just been g**gling and have found this which may help .... it comes from your site An65 .... :D
Remember one of the mourners was Mrs WINTER....
"Little London, Melton Mowbray Leic 1871:
Sarah Winters 48 Hawker Boston Lin
Ann Winters 11 Melton Leic
Ellen Winters 8 Notts
William Winters 2 Melton Leic"
I wonder if this family has anything to do with the Smiths/Grays?
-
Hi Deb.
At the funeral of Fred' Smith's wife Annie (died Christmas Eve road crash 1954 Annie and her son-in-law) among the mourners are Mr S Gray (this might be Sidney Gray) and there is a Mr H C Winter. I know the dates are well ahead of what we're looking at but I thought I'd mention it as it might show an older link.
Chez
-
Hi
Just browsing through before logging off and saw this from babygirl101 ...
I can't really find any connection to a Charles Smith (b. around 1819) in my family, but I came across a newspaper report about him, dated 26th February 1887.
It refers to his wife Lucy Smith (formerly Austin) who was born around 1829. They had two children living with them at the time - Oceana aged 17 and Albert aged 11. They were reported as being gypsies and he was from Barford Oxfordshire apparently. His sister then late sister was mentioned and it said she was the wife of a Wisdom Smith and had died about 1885 at the age of 90 (i.e. born around 1795).
Could this be Brownetta? She was supposedly born 1784.
]Chez
-
Hi Deb,
I think I can help with Francis and Sarah for 1861. They are presumably with Francis' parents Edward and Martha in Alford Lincs:
New Road;
Edward Elliott; Head; Mar; 60; Gipseys (" appears for Martha then all other professions are left blank); Notts, Willboughby
Martha Elliott; Wife; Mar; 69; Lincoln, Great Ponton
James Elliott; Son; mar; 30; Lincn, Grantham
Charlotte; Daug; mar; 28; Lincoln, Wyburton
Francis; Son; mar; 28; Leicester, Hellington Hill
Julia; Daug; un; 22; Lincoln, Timberland
Arnold; Son; un; 19; Lincoln, Bloxholme
Jermmina; Daug; 15; un; Lincoln, Barwell
Harriot; Daug; 12; un; Lincoln, Billingborough
Christopher; 10; Son; un; Lincoln, Potter Hanworth
Sarah; Daug; mar; 22; Notts, Nottingham
Thomas; grandson; 6; Lincoln, Cumbergate
Samuel; grandson; 4; Lincoln, Monthorpe
Lydia; grandaug; 2; Lincoln, Billinghay
William; grandson; 1 mo; Lincoln, Alford
John Smith; Boarder; 24; not known
No sign in 1871 though, also a shame it doesn't give more details of the boarder John Smith as may well have led to a connection between the Smith and Elliott families.
-
There were several Wisdom Smiths. That topic has been covered in this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,314363.0.html
The one who reputedly married Brownetta Smith is the same one that married Maria Ellet (Elliot) Though.
The Winters certainly did marry into the Grays and Smiths but they are notoriously hard to find on census, (and everywhere else it seems!).
As for the Elliots, yes indeed Edward Elliot and Martha were the parents of Francis. Edward Elliot was the brother of Ann who married William Smith (my great x4 grandparents).
Francis and Ellen do appear on the later census the enumerator just couldnt spell their surname. I know I did find them but have lost that data in the great PC crash, so now Ill have to go have another look.....
-
Here is Francis in 1881 with his first wife Sarah Mills:
1881 RG11/3261/112/21
Brackenborough Lane, Louth
Francis Ellett 48 Hardware Dealer, Buckminster Leic
Sarah Ellett 44 Newark Notts
Lydia Ellett 22 Kyme Lin
William Ellett 21 Alford Lin
John Ellett 18 Wrangle Lin
Jemima Ellett 16 Benniworth Lin
Ellen Ellett 14 Bucknall, Lin
Esther Ellett 12 Caistor, Lin
Mary A Ellett 5 Louth Lin
Christalena Ellett 3 Langworth Lin
Elizabeth Capes 20 Servant Blyborough Lin
Eliza Goodhand 20 Servant Bonby Lin
-
Hi An 65
Yep we found Francis and Ellen Elliott in later censuses ...under the surname ELLET...see page 4 and Chez' summary ...in 1901 they had a grandson Herbert Smith living with them.
as for Constance ...under Ellett in 1891 ...I do believe she is Constance Smith ...Barthy and Ellen's daughter.
deb :)
-
Hi
Just browsing through before logging off and saw this from babygirl101 ...
I can't really find any connection to a Charles Smith (b. around 1819) in my family, but I came across a newspaper report about him, dated 26th February 1887.
It refers to his wife Lucy Smith (formerly Austin) who was born around 1829. They had two children living with them at the time - Oceana aged 17 and Albert aged 11. They were reported as being gypsies and he was from Barford Oxfordshire apparently. His sister then late sister was mentioned and it said she was the wife of a Wisdom Smith and had died about 1885 at the age of 90 (i.e. born around 1795).
Could this be Brownetta? She was supposedly born 1784.
]Chez
Hi Chez
in 1881
Watlington, Oxfordshire
shed
Charles Smith head mar hawker 67 b Oxon marford
Lucy wife 57 b Oxon ??
Albert son 5 b Bucks ?? common
Ausly ?? 11 dau b Oxon Shawl?
1871
Thame, Moreton Field and North Weston, Oxon
camped in ??
Charles Smith head mar 50 peg maker, wire ? b Oxon Barber
Lucy wife 40 chair bottomer b Wiltshire, H/Mannaton
Licia dau 18 unm bird minowing b Hale Surrey
Elizabeth dau 14 b Cassington Oxon
Ochennia dau 8 months b W/moreton Field, Oxon
Charlotte Austin mother widow b Wiltshire Ives/
we would have to tace them to see if he is related to Brownetta
will look further
deb :)
-
I can't work out whether you are still revelling in the search Deb, or if it has all gotten under your skin now and you feel like you have to solve the mystery :)
Great plucking of census returns out of nowhere anyway! I have had a quick look at the 1881 return and I think the birth place for Ausly/ Ausey in 1881 might be Thame, Oxon, can't help with the other ?s though.
-
Hi Deb,
Hope you dont mind but i had a look on Oxfordshire Marriage Index as i was sure i had
see a Wisdom Smith when doing another search. I found 2
3 Mar 1782 Wisdom Smith to Hannah Smith at Bletchingdon
12 Mar 1804 Wisdom Smith, gypsy, to Elizabeth Gentle, gypsy, at Shutford
Hope this may help. :) :)
Sue
-
Hi Sue ..nice to see you!
Thanks for that ... Was that on Cathayb's scavenger Hunt ?
I wonder how many Wisdom Smiths there were? Brownetta Smith , s/o Barthwell Smith, who married Wisdom was b c 1794.
eekkkk so much to find ... LOL
Jo ... I love the hunt and , yes, they have gotten under my skin ...I am hoping I find my Penfolds/Orchards with them somewhere ... ;D
ded
-
Deb i cant remember if it was for Cathayb's hunt or not, im sure she will let me know if she hasn't
got it ;D ;D
I also found this one but dont know if it will help with the search ::)
15 Feb 1808 Valentine Smith to Elizabeth Grey at Banbury.
I try and make notes of any names that may help any of you when i find them in my PRs as you
never know if they will help ;D ;D
Great to speak to you again ;D Cant wait for your next hunt :)
Sue
-
Wisdom Smith c.1763 Steeple Claydon
Married Hannah Smith 1782 Bletchington Ox.
They had Bethania in 1800 (married William Gray & James Mobbs)
Tabitha in 1803 (married William Gray)
Salome in 1807 (married William Smith)
Wisdom (married 1) Esther Smith in 1813 2) Maria Ellet (Elliot) in 1818 3) Amy Haywood in 1853.)
Salvino in 1798
Lissy b. 1793
Nathaniel in 1792 married Prudence
Eunice or Unity in 1791 married James Smith
Edward in 1786 married Sarah
and Robert in 1794 married Evening (Smith?)
-------------
Next Gen
Wisdom Smith & Maria Had:
Wisdom 1818 married Hannah Smith b.1822 the daughter of William Smith and Ann Elliot
Hercules 1821
Offa (female) 1923
Maria 1826 married Riley Smith Birch
Abigail 1829 married William Newberry/Newborough
Matilda 1831
James Smith and Eunice/Unity had:
William b.1815 married Mausolina Heron/Hearn
Wisdom b.1812 married 1) Eliza Boswell (in 1831) and 2) Hannah Smith d/o Mendoza & Ann
-----------
Next Generation
Wisdom Smith and Eliza Boswell had:
Wisdom Smith b.1934 married Priscilla Bagley.
-
Hi everyone.
Babygirl101 kindly send me a copy of the newspaper report and yes Deb, that's the right family you found there on the census but reading the report I don't think it is Brownetta's family unfortunately.
It says the murder victim, Lucy wife of gypsy Charles Smith, was a native of Tetsworth, Oxfordshire and her maiden name was Austin. Charles Smith had several relatives in Oxfordshire, a sister at Marston, another at Headington Quarry "and a third, who is dead, was the wife of Mr Wisdom Smith of Barton near Headington" so I don't think that's Brownetta although I just g**gled the distance between Cold Higham and Headington and it is 38 miles.
If anyone, looking at what An65's just posted, it could be he is the brother of Hannah Smith d/o Mendoza & Ann as they look closest in birthdates. Charles Smith b1814 she c1812 maybe if she's similiar in age to her husband Wisdom born 1812. Just a guess... :-\
By the way, Albert is called "Prince Albert Smith" according to his sister who is named both Oceana and Oshey Smith in the report if its any help to anyone following this line.
It was a fascinating read whatever... :) thanks babygirl101
Chez
-
Hannah Smith w/o Wisdom and d/o Mendoza and Ann was c.1817 Boston
-
There are 2 Wisdoms associated with Headington Quarry Ox, according to the IGI.
Wisdom Smith married Priscilla Bagley there in 1860..... and their child, Wisdom c.1854 Charlton On Otmoor Ox, married Harriet Tolley there in 1875. This is assuming that the Wisdom of Charlton On Otmoor became associated with Headington Quarry....
-
Blimey An65
You have so much info ...how fabulous ....
Going back to the beginning of the thread ... I am wondering if Chez has ordered any birth certs of Henry/harry Smith b c 1842 ... :-\
with him not having 'married' Dinah Ellen Gray (she being a spinster when marrying Francis elliot), we don't have a marriage cert. I still wonder if he didn't marry the Patchett girl .... will have to reread to find the marriage ref ... that cert may well be worth ordering.
deb :)
-
there are so many ppl trying to work out the wisdom smith line its unreal......... honest and even I cant work it all out...
-
Hi folks
Just thought i'd throw this snippet into the arena, I must admit I can't recall if I've posted it before or not heho! It's a newspaper article I came across about Wisdoms funeral:-
"The Prince of the Gypsies" The funeral of "The Prince of the Gypsies" - Wisdom Smith, aged 76, took place at Essendine, Rutland, on the 4th Inst. About one hundred of the wandering tribe were present at the ceremony, and a large concourse of peasantry from the adjacent villages also joined the burial train. The dark faced outcasts, in projecting this spectacle, were wiser in their generation than the simple rustics among whom they had pitched their tents; they secured a 'comfortable coffin' for their patriarch by assuring the joiner that the princes son was worth thousands and would come from the north to take the place of the chief mourner in the funeral obsequecies. The also duped other small trademen by telling them that the wealthy heir would pay for everything in a princely manner! Every man, woman and child, of the crafty race, had however disappeared like a mist before the morning succeeded the cermony and the tradesmen were unpaid".
Extract from The Lincolnshire Mercury 5th May 1839.
This ties in with the info on Free BMD giving Wisdoms death as June 1/4 1839, Stamford. Has anyone actually seen a copy of his death certificate I wonder?
BG
-
Hi
Deb, I've ordered Henry's/Harry's death certificate but am at a loss to where he was born. Eagle is one location mentioned, Carlton was another I think
I've looked on FreeBMD for possible births and for 1842 there are 2 at Boston, 2 Louth, 2 Derby, 1 Bourne, 1 Holbeach, 1 Newark so all within reasonable reach. I don't know which one to go for. Any ideas anyone :-\ If I could narrow it down a bit I don't mind ordering two or three to find the right one but the odds are a little high at the moment.
Chez
-
If I were going to start anywhere, Chez I'd start with the Louth ones- as it seems to have been on the route of travellers in the area.
However it were me, I wouldn't order any certificates yet, the common name, the changing birth locations (and ones that a sizable distance apart) and the unconfirmed age (the census returns seem to imply it is far from clear cut when he was born) make it a nightmere to identify him (similar to my problems tracking down Mary Ann Smith and I haven't touched a birth certificate yet).
You can't assume he was born in 1842 either- his date of death was 30th June, so IF he was 40 when he died there is an equal chance he was born in 1841.
Perhaps we we could try to eliminate some of the records, by looking for Henry Smith's of the right age living in that registration district, on later censuses? However with the details being as they are not sure how far that will get us.
-
Hi
Thanks mongojoby. I didn't know Louth was on a "route" and that would have probably been one of the first I'd ignore going for maybe Newark or Boston first. so that's interesting.
I've just added 1841 to the equation and that adds another three Henrys born Louth (although I think 1 may be a duplicate). So that is 11 -possible 12 - to choose from. Although just rechecking while I write this - they were all in first 1/4 so maybe not him... :-\
Going back to the route bit - was there a fairly common "route" up and down the country then? I've heard of the horse fairs and that Newark was quite central to these but was there a calendar that maybe dictated the families' movements through the year, as in hop picking in Kent, fruit picking in the Fens etc?
Chez
-
Hi Chez,
Sorry, wasn't meaning it come across as the air of authority, just my own opinion based on the ground Henry seems to have covered (as you say children being born there and also Dinah/ Ellen's second Ellet family popping up there on a couple of ocassions). I am sure Ann, will have a much better idea about routes.
Given the location of Newark, I'd presume that would also be a place vistied frequently by travellers, as would have thought they would go where the main roads were. It is for example the registration district where Barthwell, Charlotte and Sarah Smith are in 1861 (who we think have a connection with Henry). I couldn't see a Newark registration that fitted though, hence why I picked out the Louth ones.
Jo (sorry if you didn't recognise it was me, due to not signing off message!)
-
Hi Jo
Yes, I see your logic for maybe Louth - ie son Fred b Horncastle thats near Louth isn't it, and I hadn't made the connection with Dinah's second marriage appearing there as that's come up recently. Seems a fairly common area for the family to have a base.
Chez
-
Well now, looking at the map one cant help but notice several groups of stopping places
To the south of Grantham, there is Skillington, and Castle Bytham, on the road towards Bourne. Moving northwards to Sleaford, we find Scredington, Ancaster, and Heckington
Moving north of Sleaford we find Leasingham, Kyme, Billinghay, Navenby, Metheringham, Coleby, Harmston, Dunston and Potterhanworth, Hykeham, Branston and Eagle as we get close to Lincoln.
North of Lincoln we find North and South Carlton, Burton, Springthorpe, Scampton, Corringham, Blyborough, on the road to Scarborough.
If we go back to Lincoln and move north east towards Market Rasen we find, Nettleham, Langworth and Lissington.
If we were to assume that the travel north of Lincoln was making a route to Brigg fair, and returning south by the other route, that would make sense. A popular stopping place with a lot of Romany baptisms is Wrawby a village by Brigg.
To the east of Wrawby is Melton Ross. Moving north again towards the Humber estuary we find Caistor, Winteringham Wootton and South Ferriby. Louth actually remains rather isolated to the right of Market Rasen.
South of Rasen we find Horncastle, once known for its Horse fair. In the vicinity we find Ashby, a village known for Romany settlement, like Kyme.
Directly south of Horncastle, is the hamlet of Brothertoft, near Boston (another town known for its romany settlement). to the west of Boston we find Kyme and Heckington..... on our way back to Sleaford.
If you follow the map you can see the routes they took, most likely moving into Leics and Nottingham through Mowbray and Newark along the way.
Regardless of surname, all the places mentioned have at least one romany baptism/marriage known to me.....
-
Hi An65.
Thank you for the stopping places. That makes all the various birthplaces much clearer - I can associate with so many villages you mention and most of them seem along one or two of these main thoroughfares.
I'll have look on the map. I'm wondering if I marked various birthplaces and dates whether a route would emerge. It might help me pinpoint a missing baptism for Henry's children who don't seem to be where they should be. It's worth a go anyway.
Thanks
Chez
-
Really interesting stuff Ann, thanks for the description
Do you have any idea why North Kyme would have become a stopping place? I visited it earlier this year, and it seems an increbibly small place and didn't strike me as an obvious place to end up.
-
I dont really know. There are many small villages on that list. Brothertoft is a place I know well, my father lived there as a kid, and he can remember the romanies coming each year knife sharpening, peg selling etc. They were providing a service for the villagers, most likely whilst enroute to a larger town/fair. One thing they never did was wander aimlessly. Why they chose particular places to settle I couldnt say, beyond the fact that they most likely liked certain places, found a trade they could use in the village, and/or were received well by the locals.
-
Wisdom Smith c.1763 Steeple Claydon s/o Cain Smith
Married Hannah Smith 1782 Bletchington Ox.
They had Bethania in 1800 (married James Gray aka Mobbs)
Tabitha in 1803 (married William Gray)
Salome in 1807 (married William Smith)
Wisdom (married 1) (reputedly) Brownetta Smith, 2) Esther Smith in 1813 3) Maria Ellet (Elliot) in 1818 4) Amy Haywood in 1853.)
Salvino in 1798
Lissy/Nessy b. and died 1795
Nathaniel in 1792 married Prudence
Eunice or Unity in 1791 married James Smith
Edward in 1786 married Sarah
Absalom d.1783
and Robert in 1794 married Evening (Smith?)
-------------
Next Gen
Wisdom Smith & Maria Had:
Wisdom 1818 married Hannah Smith b.1822 the daughter of William Smith and Ann Elliot
Hercules 1821
Offa (female) 1923
Maria 1826 married Riley Smith Birch
Abigail 1829 married William Newberry/Newborough
Matilda 1831
James Smith and Eunice/Unity had:
William b.1815 married Mausolina Heron/Hearn
Wisdom b.1812 married 1) Eliza Boswell (in 1831) and 2) Hannah Smith d/o Mendoza & Ann
-----------
Next Generation
Wisdom Smith and Eliza Boswell had:
Wisdom Smith b.1934 married Priscilla Bagley.
Ann
I've just noticed that you've got Wisdom married to Amy Haywood in 1853, this marriage was confirmed as below:-
There was a marriage between an Amy Haywood in 1853, as it was reported in the Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Tuesday, September 13, 1853; Issue 2536:-
"The marriage took place on Sept 5, at the Abbey Church, Bourn, by the Rev. Walter Scott, Wisdom Smith to Amy Haywood. Both parties are gipsies, and, notwithstanding their advanced age, they tripped it gaily on "the light fantastic toe" to the fiddle and the tambourine. The buxom bride is in her 66th year, and she is the third wife Wisdom has led from the altar".
BG
-
hi everyone
I have nothing new to add except I saw this thread and thought someone may be interested ;
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,326068.0.html
It's about old photos available on ebay; This one caught my attention;
Smith
Gypsy Smith, Wife, and Daughter. Photo Post Card.
Item number: 160279172685
deb
-
Hello everyone, sorry I couldn't be online for a while.
Like Mongojoby I too thought North Kyme a strange place to stop off - it is so quiet, a tiny village really, and yet so many Gray and Smith have links with it. The line up of Gray crosses in the graveyard is impressive - they are quite ornate, all side by side, I have a photo of them if anyone wants a copy emailed.
Info like this really helps see the fuller picture when you realise how things were in those days. Thank you An65.
NOW... Don't know if this is good news or bad news...
Henry Smith's death certificate arrived today. He died North Kyme. No other address. 40 years old in June 1882. Horse dealer and informant of death was " the mark of Ellen Smith, widow of deceased, present at the death, North Kyme" so there it is, Henry and Ellen were married. So how she was a spinster later on ....
Chez
-
Well, the thing is, she said she was his widow (as in we were married) and she later said she was a spinster....
-
Sent this once = error message so if you get it twice sorry.
Yes, Ellen seems a woman who couldn't quite make up her mind up whether she was married or not. ( and I thought I was bad shopping!)
I think she was described as the widow of Henry Smith when she married Francis Ellott ( An65 can you help here? )
Personally, from what we've got here, I am not sure they were married. Ok the census gives Smith surnames to the children (which they carry on as nephews etc) but I am wondering if they may have originally been baptised as GRAY ? Which might explain why I can't find any of their baptisms.
But... if Ellen was Henry's "widow " present at his death in 1882 and then said she was Henry Smith's "widow" when she married Francis Elliot in 1883 - what benefit would she have gained being a 41 year old widow against a spinster?
Any help gratefully received! ;D
Chez
-
Hi Jo
Have sent Gray grave pics off to you.
Chez
-
would like them too Chez -
-
Hi An65
Least I can do for all your help. Thank you.
Chez
PS, any idea where I can try for getting in touch with any of Fred's siblings descendants? I can't seem to find them.
I've put a couple of messages on the LIncs FHS page but nothing back. Do you know of any other websites? I've just subscribed to the Romany and Traveller FHS but the lady advised me to wait till Oct when their new year subscriptions started so I wouldn't miss out - when I subscribed I also bought 3 of the older Romany Routes back issue magazines. They came last week. Full of information. If anyone is thinking of joining I would recommend it for the magazines alone.
-
Well I have written a few articles in past Romany Routes (Romany & Traveller FHS Journal) which you might enjoy.
Its a great site and a great place to find other family members.
Now the Elliots....... let me see....
there was
James b.1831 either Grantham or Folkingham m.Charlotte
Samuel b.1834 Little Steeping m.Margaret
Charlotte b.early 1830s Wyberton (near Boston)
Joseph b.1837 Candlesby m.Eliza Gray
Sarah b.1839 Nottingham
Julia b.1839 Timberland
Arnold b.1842 Broxholme m.Selina Clayton
Jemima b.1846 Barwell Leic
Harriet b.1849 Billingborough supposedly m.Henry Clarke
Christopher b.1851 Potterhanworth.
All were issue of Edward Elliot and Martha Smith.
-
Hi An65
Yes, I was really impressed by the Romany Routes magazines.
I can now see that Dinah Ellen Gray stayed with travelling families after Henry's death when she "married" Francis Elliott in 1883 but what happened to her children?
I'm curious to what contact she had with her children as some of the census we've covered here suggest she was apart from them and they stayed with their Gray uncles/aunts while she and Henry Smith were still "Married" ... but obviously the census after 1901 can't help.
I have family story and some past contact with the Grays and Smiths settled there in Great Hale, nr Heckington , Sleaford, at The Laurels where the Gray family lived c1910 onwards, plus the Smith/Gray graves at North Kyme.
It looks as if Henry Smith's sister Harriet , wife of Abraham Gray, played a big part in Henry , his mother Charlotte and his son Frederick Smith's life, but the other Smiths seem to have moved away. Metheringham is one village mentioned.
I've lost almost all trace of Christopher, Sarah and even Fredericks's siblings, apart from the sister Harriet married Herbert Hand family (think mentioned earlier - son Montague and that ends in n1901 census)
And, while I've got my gt grandfather Henry Smith's grave at North Kyme, I've no idea at all where my gt grandmother Dinah Ellen Gray/Smith/Elliott is buried... not even the county - Lincs, Cambs, Notts?
Chez
-
Hi Chezp,
I am relatively new to this, and have only recently started to research the Romany side of my family (Gray), having had little factual information, only folk history from my fathers side of the family. I have found through the census that my great great grandfather was Abraham Gray (1854-6) married to Martha Smith (1856) and that his father was Christopher Gray (1815-1869) married to Maria Smith (1817). I have found several of the links through census of his siblings, and followed it back to Thomas and Elizabeth through others researching Grays/Smiths/Elliotts. I noticed you have many a thing about this side of my family, and as I knew nothing, including my great grandad Henry Grays birth date... which I now know to be 1891, (and that they were in Easton on the Hill, Stamford, Lincolnshire in 1911, were he married my great grandmother Eveline (Evelyn) Exton), was wondering if you would share your photo's, information etc with me.
This is a side of the family that has kind of gone hidden for too many years and I now believe should be celebrated, so would very much appreciate your help.
Debulah.
-
Well now I know how you connect up!! would love to know more about your family - I eventually lost track of that Abraham Gray. Now my family are all over these boards and elsewhere on the net, but Ill happily go over some of it again if you like!
-
ah now one thing I might be able to help with is your Martha Smith, who married Abraham, s/o Christopher Gray.
She was also known as Mercy Smith and was the daughter of Thomas Smith and Mary Brown. They were also the parents of Deliah Smith who married Christopher Grays son Samuel.
I have Mary (Brown) Smiths orbituary and amongst the family listed are:
"Mr & Mrs A Gray dtr & son in law, Easton Stamford"
She died in Horncastle in 1915.
Now Thomas Smith her hubby died in 1897 at Horncastle, and I believe he was the brother of Maria Smith who married Christopher Gray.
And if you think its bad so far, Thomas and Mary also had a daughter Jane, who also married one of Christophers sons, Francis Gray.
-
Yes that Abraham was my great great grandfather, Henry, his son, was my Nan's dad, and my Dad's grandad. They were in Easton in 1911 according to the census, and in Digby in 1891, but cannot find them anywhere in 1881, or 1901. Abraham married Eveline Exton from Easton in 1915.
Thank you for the information on Maria and Martha, I feel as if I am just finding out who I am.
Debulah
-
As for the 'bad so far' bit, I've been sitting with paper and pencil, drawing trees that end up with big circles of them, so had guessed there were plenty of connections between the three families, Elliott, Smith and Gray - also a Bond thrown in for good measure sometimes too.
It's a wonder we haven't all got 6 fingers and toes, hee hee (sorry, LOL! bit old in the tooth for that one though, still have to translate it when daughter writes it in her emails/texts).
Deb
-
Hi Debulah
Lovely to make contact. Another piece in the jigsaw eh?
I'll go through what I have and get back to you.
You've got a head start with An65 on the case though - she's brilliant on the info, made everything make sense to me re Henry Smith and Dinah Ellen Gray and that isn't easy with the Smiths/Grays/Elliots etc. The families are so involved.
Sorry An65 - dont mean to embarrass you but credit where it's due... :)
Chezp
-
Back when I started tracing my fam history, 20 odd years ago, none of this existed. The medium for sharing was to write a book and deposit it in some archives, in the hope someone would read it. Who would have known back then that all this would be at our fingertips today?
ok Thomas Smith and Mary Brown
They were married at Wrawby by Brigg (Brigg itself didnt have a church then) 23.04.1849 he listed as s/o William Smith, and she d/o Thomas Brown.
Thomas died 11.09.1897 and Mary 14.03.1915 both were of Waring Row, Horncastle, and both interred in Horncastle Cem. She had broken her leg 3 weeks prior to her death.
Incidentally, William Smith and Ann Elliott lived their last days at Cagthorpe, Horncastle, and were buried there as well.
Anyway, Thomas & Mary had:
Deliah 1848 Ludborough d.1918 Boston, married (in 1871) Samuel Gray b.1848 Branston, d.1918 Boston - my 2xgrt grandparents. They lived their last days at Hospitalbridge Lane (Now Hospital Lane) Boston, and died one day apart, being buried together in Boston Cemetery (no stone exists).
Mercy/Martha b.1852 c.1853 at Theddlethorpe St Helens - although she also appears to have been bapt 1852 at Spilsby. Married Abraham Gray.
Mary Ann b.1854 Mavis Enderby married David Rollingson in 1872 at Horncastle. She may have had a daughter Rebecca Smith in 1871 at Horncastle.
Rebecca c.1856 Wainfleet married Godfrey Goddard in 1875, he died in 1877 and she thereafter married Thomas Elliott in 1892.
Jane b.cir 1860 married Francis Gray s/o Christopher.
Stephen b.cir 1863 d.1905 married Isabella Pierce
There is a John b.cir 1865 and a George b.cir 1868 about which I can find nothing else.
Then came Walter, bapt 1866 at Wainfleet, and again at Melton Ross, the same year.
Theresa b.cir 1875 Burringham, possibly the Theresa Smith c.1876 Bottesford, d/o John & Mary "Gipsies of Ashby" Its possible she is the Theresa who married Harry Brown and had a son Hezekiah in 1900 at Louth.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Going back a generation to William & Ann, this is what we have uncovered thus far:
Despite Williams repeated claims to be from Coleorton Leics, no such baptism is on record.
Their children were:
Maria c.1817 Willoughby On The Wolds Notts d.1875 Heckington, m.1836 Rauceby, Christopher Gray
Joseph c.1819 Willoughby On The Wolds (n.o.i.)
Hannah c.1822 Navenby married Wisdom Smith
Mary b.cir 1824 claimed to be of Coleorton, married William Gray b.1825 Thurlby By Bourne, Lincs
Thomas b.cir 1826 claimed to be of Skillington, married Mary Brown (etc)
Edwin c.1829 Waddington (n.o.i.)
Ledday (f) c.1832 Threekingham (n.o.i.)
John c.1836 Potter Hanworth Lincs married Julia
Christopher c.1838 Potter Hanworth Lincs (n.o.i)
Matilda b.1841 Navenby married George Fairy m.1859 Horncastle.
-
To Chepz and An65,
Thank you both so much for your reply's, you are both obviously very devoted to the cause! must admit it does grip you when you start. I'm sure I can learn a thing or two from both of you. Will read through all that you've said, and work it in to my own research. I'm sure this will be a long term connection we have.
Deb
-
Oh well, you are me relative after all :) !!!
As for Chez, I think we will turn out to be in the end, its just tying up all the loose ends....
-
We do appear to be spread widely.
Speak to you later!
Deb
-
Bethania and James Gray only just found out aka / mobbs were my 3xgreat grandparents there children were eliace twins cornelious and righteous and Moses eliace and righteous married sisters Amelia and sage hurn /heron xxx
-
regarding polygamy:
three of the daughters of No Name Heron - Millia, Eliza and Uri demonstrate this:
Millia married Pyramus Gray and stayed with him for life.
Eliza married first Jack (John Budd) Gray (brother of Pyramus) and later Oseri Gray his cousin.
Uri married first the same Jack Gray and later Leonard Printall.
Jack (John Budd) Gray was married many times, to Uri and Eliza, and also to Maria Boswell AND her daughter Harriet Williams, and lived out his days after transportation with one Frances Dowlen.
is the Pyramus Gray your talking about use the name eliace ? As Amelia heron daughter of Edmund was my great great granny but is far as I know her husband was eliace Gray ?
-
PS another source gives Charlotte as w/o Matthew Smith and she is a Boiling/Boyling/Boylen.
IGI shows up Charlotte Boylen, d/o George & Franette c.26.05.1811 Eagle Lincs.
This makes her d/o George Boyling who married Tranette/Franette/Trinity Boswell, and GEORGE later marrying Joyce Tansey/Tanzy/Tansy.
George and Joyce settled at Nettleham Lincs, he dying in 1873 and she in 1885. George is a presumed (and reputed) son of Caesar Boyling.
Caesar Boyling (var) married 1 Mary Royston 1768 Boston Lincs and 2 Sarah Smith 1780 Wrawby (by Brigg) Lincs.
Caesar known to have had by Mary:
Sam (1769 Boston) Tom (1775 Coventry) Ambrose (1777) Coventry and by Sarah:
John b.cir 1781 Wolverhampton and Sarah c.1784 Spalding who married Zachariah Boswell in 1809 Kirton In Lindsay.
By Joyce Tansey George is known to have had Salome Ellen Boyling c.1823 Scampton Lin who married William Gray c.1822 Ancaster s/o Wm Gray who married Tabitha Smith.
did William and Salome have a son eliace because Williams had so many wives I can't keep up with him lol
-
Hi,
I have just joined after reading this thread and am wondering if anyone can help please. I believe that Henry Smith had another younger brother call Albert/Alfred Smith b. 1847 in potentially Barrowby, Eagle, Welby or Harrowby Lincs. This would make him the youngest child of Bathwell and Charlotte Smith.
At his first marriage (as Albert) to Mary Ann Betsy Donson in Navenby on 24/6/1866 his father is listed as Barthold Smith and at his second marriage to Anne Maria Tindall (just down the road in Boothby Graffoe) on 18/10/1875 his father is listed as Bathwell Smith.
We know from the 1861 census that Bartholomew Smith (aka Bathwell etc) was in Bassingham and although Alfred/Albert is not listed as one of his children, there is an Alfred Smith listed as a Carter at the Chequers Pub where the publican is a Patchett (a name which is also in this string) in Eagle (Bassingham is between Eagle and Navenby). There were two Millicent's living at the pub (wife and daughter of Patchett) and Albert Smith names one of his daughters Millicent so this could be him.
Albert appears to have given up the Romany lifestyle after his first marriage when he settled in Navenby as a farm labourer (where Barthwell Smith was buried on 25 Nov 1861). He is on the 1871 census there as Alfred. My great grandfather Charles Abram Smith was born in Boothby Graffoe in 1880. Then Anne Marie and Albert Smith appear on the 1881 census where they settled in Pointon where he appears again in the 1891, 1901 and 1911 census' before his death in 1933 in Bourne which covers Pointon. Pointon is one village away from Billingborough which also appears in this thread as a place visited by the Smith/Gray/Elliot families.
Also does anyone know anymore about the parents of Bathwell and/or Charlotte?
Thanks!
This information from Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
-
Hi,
I have just joined after reading this thread and am wondering if anyone can help please. I believe that Henry Smith had another younger brother call Albert/Alfred Smith b. 1847 in potentially Barrowby, Eagle, Welby or Harrowby Lincs. This would make him the youngest child of Bathwell and Charlotte Smith.
At his first marriage (as Albert) to Mary Ann Betsy Donson in Navenby on 24/6/1866 his father is listed as Barthold Smith and at his second marriage to Anne Maria Tindall (just down the road in Boothby Graffoe) on 18/10/1875 his father is listed as Bathwell Smith.
We know from the 1861 census that Bartholomew Smith (aka Bathwell etc) was in Bassingham and although Alfred/Albert is not listed as one of his children, there is an Alfred Smith listed as a Carter at the Chequers Pub where the publican is a Patchett (a name which is also in this string) in Eagle (Bassingham is between Eagle and Navenby). There were two Millicent's living at the pub (wife and daughter of Patchett) and Albert Smith names one of his daughters Millicent so this could be him.
Albert appears to have given up the Romany lifestyle after his first marriage when he settled in Navenby as a farm labourer (where Barthwell Smith was buried on 25 Nov 1861). He is on the 1871 census there as Alfred. My great grandfather Charles Abram Smith was born in Boothby Graffoe in 1880. Then Anne Marie and Albert Smith appear on the 1881 census where they settled in Pointon where he appears again in the 1891, 1901 and 1911 census' before his death in 1933 in Bourne which covers Pointon. Pointon is one village away from Billingborough which also appears in this thread as a place visited by the Smith/Gray/Elliot families.
Also does anyone know anymore about the parents of Bathwell and/or Charlotte?
Thanks!
This information from Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
yes have same details as you regarding Albert. As for Bathwells parents, Thomas and Nancy were their names given at his baptism in 1795 at Cold Higham, Northants. His sister Brownetta was baptised in the same place in 1794.