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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: SueJW on Monday 25 August 08 10:14 BST (UK)
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Hi
I have my gt grandfathers, Thomas Hardy, discharge papers which show he served in India between 1867 and 1878 (he enlisted 1859) He then goes on to serve in the Afghan War 1878/79/80. He was awarded the Afghan Medal.
My problem comes in that I don't know what Regiment he served in. His papers don't state Regt, only 1st Batt 5th Fusiliers. As he came from Norfolk I assumed Norfolk Regt but can find no mention of that Regt in Afghan.
Is there any way I can find out or anyone who knows the answer?
Many thanks for any information
Sue
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Hi Sue
His papers don't state Regt, only 1st Batt 5th Fusiliers.
This is his regiment - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Regiment_of_Foot - aka 5th Foot, or the 5th Regiment of Foot, or the 5th Fusiliers, etc.
They would have had two battalions and a Depot, and men could be transferred between each. Does his papers give his place and date of birth? If not you will have to visit Kew and look in the Muster and Pay Lists (WO12) for when he enlisted or was discharged.
If you google the names of any clasps (bars) on the medals you will find out what he went through to earn the medals.
Ken
Useful link - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm
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Hi Ken
Many thanks for that info.
Thomas was born in East Dereham, Norfolk, which is why I assumed the Norfolk Regiment.
I do have his discharge papers which gives all personal details such as birthplace, age, physical description, health etc. I'm also pleased to report he had a glowing writeup and gained 5 good conduct badges :) (Unlike his son who was court marshalled and kicked out the army at the start of WW1, but that's another story!)
I confess to being puzzled why he joined Northumberland. He actually enlisted in East Dereham. I really would have expected Norfolk Regt. Ah well, guess I'll never know.
One other question please. As he signed up in Dec 1859 and doesn't appear to have left England until 1867 (in London and Woolwich in '64) any brainwaves as to where he may appear on the 1861 census? I'm assuming in barracks somewhere so any idea where the 5th had barracks at that time?
Thanks again for your help, most appreciated
Sue
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Hi Sue !
Our friend Garen has a great website about the Afghan War ! it may give you some background
http://www.garenewing.co.uk/angloafghanwar/
Annie :)
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Hi Annie
Yes, I found it this morning. Very good.
Thanks for thinking of me though :)
Sue
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Hi Sue
The 1862 Army List, which would have been compiled at the end of 1861, says that the 1st Battalion were in Portsmouth, and the 2nd Battalion were in Mauritius. Depots of both were in Colchester.
It also says that the 1st Bn returned from India 7 July 1861 - so they just missed the census, and the 2nd Bn embarked for Mauritius in August 1858. So only the depots will be in the 1861 census. So I suggest you start in Colchester. Of course he may have been on leave or on detachment to a nearby town.
The official title was 5th Regiment of Foot (Northumberland Fusiliers), and they wore bright green facings (collars and cuffs) on their scarlet tunics.
The Norfolk Regiment was created in 1881 from the 9th Foot (East Norfolk) and 54th Foot (West Norfolk). The latter had a Depot in Colchester in 1861, so maybe he tried them but they did not have a vacancy.
The GC 'badges' were actually inverted stripes worn above the left cuff. I would also expect him to be awarded the LSGC (Long Service Good Conduct) medal after 18 years (after the age of 18) if he won 5 badges. Corporals did not wear their GC badges, as they were expected to be of good conduct. Each GC badge was worth 1d a day extra, so would have made a big difference on the basic Private's pay of 1s 1d or 1s a day - they cut the pay in the army at some point after the Crimean War.
Ken
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Hi Ken
Thank you so much for all that wonderful info. And, I can report, I found him in Colchester, 1861. Yes he did get the LSGC medal as well. I wonder what happened to them?!
My military history is very sketchy to say the least but I'm slowly learning ;)
One other thing, on his discharge he was a Lance Corporal, so he did reasonably well, all be it a low rank :)
Once again thanks for all your help. It all helps to make our ancesters come alive so to speak.
Sue
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Strictly speaking Lance Corporal (and also the Lance Sergeant) was an appointment rather than a rank. It was used to see if men had the ability and desire to give orders to their mates. A company only had a certain number of paid Lance Corporal places and men would often get the appointment for up to a year without being paid. This paid/unpaid service would usually be recorded on his record.
Ken
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Hi Ken.
I don't have Thomas's full service record only his discharge and medical records. All I know is he's called Lance Corporal on the discharge papers. I assume that means he was so on discharge. Nowhere on the papers does it say when he became one.
Once again, thanks for the info
Sue
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They seem to have culled the papers just leaving the discharge papers. I have come across this a lot recently. You need to spend a long day at Kew going through the Muster and Pay Lists. As well as getting his promotions/demotions they will tell you where his was on the first of each month, plus how much he was paid, and if he got into trouble.
Ken
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Hi
That would be nice but unlikely to happen. The thought of London scares me never mind Kew :o I cheated with the various army papers I have by paying a researcher. That was in the days when I worked full time. Can't afford that now.
Still, I got my grandfathers', gt grandfathers' 2 gt gt uncles' and my maternal grandfathers' navy records. Can't complain can I? ;)
The one I really want is my fathers'. But I don't even know what regt he served in. Would never talk about it as he was invalided out without seeing action and, silly man, said he was ashamed. (WW2). Unfortunately he nor anyone from those days is around any more. Maybe one day!!
Sue
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hello ive been looking for my ggrandfather thomas williams born 1838 oswestry, i was told that he was in connaught rangers but now have actually think he was ist battalion 5th fusiliers northumberland, and i found him on 1861 census at st botolphs colchester, so after reading your posts im convinced ive found correct regiment, my ggrandfather was in india for 13 years coming home in 1880 i now need to find muster rolls but if anyone has any advise id be thankfull,good luck with your research.
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The 1st Battalion the 5th Regiment arrived back in Portsmouth in December 1880.
Ken
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thanks ken, my ggrandfather came home early 1880 due to exhaustion after spending 13 years in india,any idea if army would haved housed him when he returned or would he have had to come home and be left to his own resourses, by 1881 he was working on railway in oswestry, shropshire, if anyone else had family in india with 1st battalion 5th regiment during this time i would love to hear from them, thanks
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hi a quick follow up, ive just found out from little book by helen walker that 1st batt 5th reg northumberlands set sail to india 1867 on hms urgent,
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hi sue i think youll find it was 1st batt 5th regiment northumberland fusiliers.
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i dont know if this is any help but on 1861 census for st botolhs colchester there is along with my ggrandfather a thomas hardy born norfolk hope this still may be of help to sue.
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Sorry I have just noticed your post of last Friday. Once discharged a man was left to fend for himself. The pension for a Private with 12 years service would have been about 4d a day - more if he served longer and left at a higher rank. It was paid 7 days a week and for life. But not enough to live on. Whatever the impact of his service iin India he was well enough to get a job on the railways.
Ken