RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: velcro on Tuesday 02 September 08 10:11 BST (UK)
-
Hi
Seeking assistance with finding maiden name of Ann Elmes ch.9 Oct 1778 Thakeham, SSX. ENG. (Goodyear??)m.John Barker 1803 SSX.Also trying to find any more children to parents Charles and Ann Elmes.
Assistance with death records of Ann Barker nee Elmes children:
Jane b. 1804 West Tarring SSX
Ann b. 1806 West Tarring
Sarah b. 1808 West Tarring
Mary Jane b.1810 West Tarring
John b. 1812 West Tarring
William Sayers b. 1814 West Tarring
Thomas b 1816 West Tarring
Walter Goodyear 1817 West Tarring
Elizabeth 1819 West Tarring
Any Census records available on John and Anne Barker's family please?
Cheers
Velcro
-
Hi
Should read maiden name of Anne Elmes's mother Ann unknown.
Cheers
Velcro
-
Can I clarify -
the list of names above that you want deaths for (9 names, Jane to Elizabeth) - they are surname Barker? And do you have dates of birth for them? Am I right 1803 onwards? and are all born Thakeham?
HAve you found any of them on any censuses?
-
The SMI has no marriage for Charles ELMES to Ann.
It does have a couple around the right time and place to other women.
Here's the first at nearby Storrington.
Place: Storrington, West Sussex, Date: 3 Oct 1768:
Subject: Charles ELMES, bach
Spouse: Jane CLEMENTS, sp
And the licence:
Place: Archdeaconry of Chichester Marriage Licence, Date: 3 Oct 1768:
Subject: Charles ELMES, bach 22 butcher otsp
Spouse: Jane CLEMENTS, sp 21 Storrington
Extra Information: SRS 32 ss: C.E.; Thos. C. butcher otsp
Here's the second eight years later.
Place: Kirdford, West Sussex, Date: 29 Jun 1776:
Subject: Charles ELMES, widr Thackham
Spouse: Sarah FOYRCE, sp otp (lic)
And the licence:
Place: Archdeaconry of Chichester Marriage Licence, Date: 18 Jun 1776:
Subject: Charles ELMES, widr 22 butcher Thakeham
Spouse: Sarah VOICE, sp 23 Kirdford
Extra Information: SRS 35 ss: C.E.; Arthur RANDALL bricklayer otsp
Interesting that both men are butchers, and in the later marriage Charles is a widower. If it wasn't for the age in the second licence I'd make the two men identical. I wonder if there was a transcription error there? 22 is quite young to be a widower (but by no means impossibly so with a wife's death in childbirth so common).
Velcro, how sure are you about the accuracy of the mother's given name in the Thakeham baptism register? Although I don't have access to it now, I have in the past looked at a microfilm of the register and from what I can remember it's very hard to read.
I'll have a look at my record of Storrington registers (I don't have those for Thakeham) to see if they are of any help in answering your questions. I'll post any answers I find later.
HTH,
Stovepipe
-
Hi
Thank you both for your quick responces.
Have no evidence as such about Anne Barker 's parents names but another contender is a baptism of an Anne Elms of West Chiltington on 4 Sept 1778, the daughter of William Elms and Sarah.
Or Charles and Jane Elmes(Elms) nee Clements m.1768 and also found Charles Elms m.1776 Sarah Voice. Charles is a widower so when did Jane die? Has Charles as 22 each wedding date, possible error?
Find children of Charles to see if Ann fits or is William and Sarah Elms her parents?
Cheers
Velcro
-
Hi Velcro,
PRTS transcript of Storrington burials (1549 - 1900) and baptisms (1549 - 1901).
No BARKER entries at all in both registers. Doesn't seem to be a local name in Storrington at least.
GOODYEAR doesn't appear either, but GOODYER does especially in the form GOODGER (it's reasonably common spelt this way). But all GOODYER / GOODGER baptism entries are after 1860, and there are no burials between 1780 and 1858.
Plenty of ELMS / ELMES though in both registers, but no baptisms to parents Charles and Ann.
There is only this burial of a man of the right age possibly to have been Ann's husband.
28/04/1821 Charles ELMS, 79 from Angmering.
So born about 1742 and would have been about 36 at the time of the Thakeham baptism. But he may be an unrelated namesake, or even the 22-year-old Charles who married Jane if we allow for one or both of the ages to be out by just a few years.
Finally, you asked when did Jane die? Here's a likely burial from Storrington.
20/11/1772 Jane ELMES, w/o Charles (no age recorded).
"w/o" is a little ambiguous - does it mean "wife of" or "widow of"? I think it usually means the former, so being about the right time this does to me look like Jane née CLEMENTS.
Stovepipe
-
Thank you for modifying original post with more info.
For starters here is Walter G. in 1851
HO107 1651 150 1
4 Warwick Street Braoadwater
Walter G Barker 33 Unm Member of Royal College of Surgeons practicing as General practitioner. born West Tarring
Olive Compton 33 servant housekeeper bn Angmering
Frank Fibbins servant 14 stable boy bn Angmering
-
Little changed by 1861
RG9 614 100 4
CAnt read road, Broadwater
Walter G 42 Unm M.B.London practicing as General Practitioner bn West Tarring
Olive Compton 42 housekeepr
ALfred Hills 15 page
-
Death
Jan/Feb/MAr 1868
Worthing reg distr
Walter Goodyer Barker age 50
right that is him sorted - only 8 to go!
-
1841
HO107 1098 7
north Hunt? West Tarring
John Barker 25 Seedsman
Ann 35
Thomas 20 farmer
Elizabeth 20
remember ages rounded.
These look like John (should be 29), Ann (35) Thomas (24/5) Elizabeth (22)
-
HO107 109 5 9
Sompting
William BArker 25 farmer
Sarah 30
possible for William. Maybe Sarah too. 1841 doesnt show relationships so she could be his wife or his sister
-
death
jul/Aug/Sep 1895
William Sayres Barker (that is the spelling in the index,not a slip of the finger by me)
age 81
Steyning reg distr
ref 2b 168
-
1861
RG9 603 26 1
Sompting
Upton Farm
William 47 Farmer bn West Tarring
Jane wife 27 bn Worthing
George 4 bn Sompting
William 3 "
Henry 1 "
+ servants
-
1871
RG10 1089 27 1
still Upton Farm, Sompting
William Sayers Barker (indexed William Jayne Barker!) 57 Farmer of 400 acres bn West Tarring
Jane 38 wife bn Worthing
Ann 4 bn Sompting
and servant
-
1881
still Upton Farm
see RG11 1101 19 4
-
1891
RG12 824 72 4
still Upton Farm Sompting
William S Barker 77 Farmer bn W T
Jane 56
William son 32 Corn merchant
Ann 24 dtr
plus servants
then as found before he dies in 1896
So that is him sorted!
2 down, 7 to go!
-
Here are a few in 1861 to be going on with:
rG9 614 187 4
Barkers Farm West Tarring
John 48 Maltster, corn dealer and farmer of 94 acres bn West Tarring
Ann wife 55 bn Darrington
Mary J dtr 18 bn West Tarring
+
house servant
RG9 614 193 15
Sarah Barker 55 unm annuitant bn West Tarring
lodger in h/h of Thomas and Sarah Greenfield
RG9 363 117 3
Broadwater House Brighton Rise Lambeth
Thomas Barker 45 Corn and seed factor bn West Tarring
Emma A 37 wife bn Bury St Edmunds Suffolk
John H 10 son bn London
Gertrude 3 dtr bn Brighton
Alfred 10 mths son bn Brighton
-
1871
RG10 1106 76 1
Sarah Barker Unm 63 Annuitant bn West Tarring
lodger in H/H of Charles Russel? and wife
-
1871
RG10 1107 88 10
North Lane West Tarring
John 58 Farmer and Maltster 120 acres bn W Tarring
Ann 66 wife bn Darrington
MAry J 28 dtr unm land owner bn W T
servants
-
and the last one of that batch in 1871
RG10 855 8 9
Broadwater Farm
Merton Surrey
Thomas 35 Farmer 180 acres bn W T
Emma Ann 47 bn Bury St E
John H 21 bn London
Gertrude 13 bn Brixton
Emma Jane 8 bn Brixton
Walter Thomas 3 bn Merton
Charles 2 bn Merton
-
1881
RG11 1116 110 38
Sarah age 73 still a boarder and unmarried
Death
Jul/Au/Sep 1882
Sarah Barker
age 74
East Preston reg distr
ref 2b 210
so that's her completed!
3 down 6 to go
-
1881
RG11 813 102 23
Thomas and Emma still thriving in Croydon
I wont type up all details for 1881, as it is free to view.
-
Cant findjohn and Ann in 1881
This is why:
Death
Oct/Nov/Dec1880
John Barker
age 68
East Preston
Apr/MAyJun 1874
Ann Barker
age 69
East Preston
sorry didnt note down the refs, but they are on FreeBMD
OK that is John sorted. How am I doing?
-
1891
RG12 590 147 33
Chepstow Rd Croydon (same as 1881)
Thomas 75 Hop and Seed Merchant
Emma A 67
Emma J dtr 27
Walter T son 25
Charles Del? 22 son
all places of birth as we had before
-
1901
RG13 639 183 23
Chepstow Rd Croydon
Emma Anny Barker 77 widow bn B St E
Emma Jane 37 dtr unm
Charles C son 32
Death
Jul/Aug/Sep 1893
Thomas Barker
age 76
Richmond reg distr
thats Thomas completed.
I think I have now found you the complete lives of all the boys (John, William Sayers, Thomas, Walter Goodyer) plus Sarah.
So that leaves the rest of the girls (Jane, Ann, MAry Jane, and Elizabeth) for another day, or for someone else to have a go at!!
I guess they all married (or died) as they havent come up in my Barker searchings.
-
I think you have done brilliantly lizdb! Velcro - you could have found some of this yourself on FreeBMD and www.familysearch.org and the 1881 census. Much more satisfying in a way to do it yourself. Have a look for possible marriages for the girls and then see if you can find them with spouse in 1881 (if they lived that long!) - born in the right place and you are away! It will keep you happy for hours once you get on the trail. At least I find it so!
Andrea
-
Hi
Doing a great job here.
Is there a death record for and marriage record for Jane Barker nee Unknown to William Sayers Barker?
Looks like the family is into assisting in making ale? Corn merchant and malsters???
Cheers
Velcro
-
I think you have done brilliantly lizdb! Velcro - you could have found some of this yourself on FreeBMD and www.familysearch.org and the 1881 census. Much more satisfying in a way to do it yourself. Have a look for possible marriages for the girls and then see if you can find them with spouse in 1881 (if they lived that long!) - born in the right place and you are away! It will keep you happy for hours once you get on the trail. At least I find it so!
Andrea
Thank you Andrea for yoor kind words- as you can see I too find it pretty compulsive once on the trail!
Velcro - Andrea is right - have you looked on free BMD yourself for this marriage and death?
Of course, I have got "into" this family so cant resist a look myself. No immediately obvious death for Jane in Sussex, but she was fairly young when widowed so could have moved elsewhere or even remarried
Re: the marriage, I can see a William Davies Barker marrying in Steyning reg distr in Jan/Feb/Mar 1856 ref 2b 295. One of the brides on the page is a Jane Newland. Timing and place are right, so I just wondered if somehow Sayers ended up as Davies in the index. Otherwise there are some plain William Barkers around. If you are really keen to know about the marriage, it will be necesary to get a childs birth cert to find Jane's maiden name.
But why not have a fiddle on FreeBMD yourself?
Any progress with the girls?
-
Re Elizabeth
1851
HO107 1606 202 3
Wickham Court Farm
West Wickham kent
William Churcher 41 Farmer 690 acres bn West Wickham Kent
Elizabeth wife 31 bn West Tarrien (!)
Mary 3 dtr bn West Wickham
loads of servants
Marriage
Ap/MAy/Jun 1846
Elizabeth Barker
William Churcher
Worthing district ref 7 815
-
Poor Elizabeth
1861
RG9 463 16 25
Wickham Court Farm, Wst Wickham
Elizabeth Churcher 42 widow occupier of farm of 750 acres bn West Tarring Sussex
John son 2
MAry dtr 13
Grace dtr 7
Blanche dtr 8mths
squillions of staff - governess, nurse, farm workers by the dozen......
-
She gives up the farm and moves nearer her family:
1871
Broadwater Rd Broadwater Sussex
Elizabeth Churcher 51 widow bn West Tarring
Mary 23 dtr bnWest Wickham Kent
Grace 17 "
John 12 "
Blanche 10 "
Susanna Crisp servant
-
back to Kent by 1881
RG11 913 57 20
BAth House Tonbridge Kent
Elizabeth Churcher 61 widow dividends of interest on money bn West Tarring (indexed West Ferring)
Blanche 20 dtr bn West Wickham
-
Back to Sussex again in 1891, and memory going a bit, as places of birth have changed!
rG12 836 6 8
Broadwater Rd Broadwater
Elizabeth Churcher widow 71 living on own means bn Broadwater
Blanche dtr single 30 living on own means bnBroadwater
plus
Cook and housemaid
-
and still going in 1901!
RG13 958 20 32
Broadwater Lodge Broadwater Rd Broadwater, Worthing
Elizabeth Churcher 81 widow living on own means bn Wst Tarring
MAry Churcher dtr single 53 bn West Wickham
Blanche " 40
plus cook and housemaid
-
Death
Jan/Feb/MAr 1903
Elizabeth Churcher age 83
East Preston dist ref 2b 225
So that has mapped out Elizabeth's life for you.
The other girls are not proving so easy, as there are some possibles on 1851 (born West tarring) but probably married pre 1837 so hard to check with just online resourses. CAnt find them on IGI
If you are able, then a visit to the West Sussex Record Office would help sort them.
-
Hi
What do you make of Sarah Barker annuitant ? Didnt know they received pensions back then? Any evidence she married?
RG9 614 193 15
Sarah Barker 55 unm annuitant bn West Tarring
lodger in h/h of Thomas and Sarah Greenfield
RG9 363 117 3
Broadwater House Brighton Rise Lambeth
Thomas Barker 45 Corn and seed factor bn West Tarring
Emma A 37 wife bn Bury St Edmunds Suffolk
John H 10 son bn London
Gertrude 3 dtr bn Brighton
Alfred 10 mths son bn Brighton
Any sites available about the history of this corn and seed factory in Broadwater?
Cheers
Velcro
-
Hi
1871 RG10 1107 88 10
North Lane West Tarring
Mary J 28 dtr unm land owner bn W T
Any records of the land that Mary owned?
Cheers
Velcro
-
Hi
Any chance of receiving info on the 1851 Census for John and Ann Barker nee Elmes please?
Cheers
Velcro
-
Hi
OK that is John sorted. How am I doing?
Very well, trying to keep up! LOL! ;D
Cheers
Velcro
-
Hi
Have found Mary Jane Barker b. 1810 West Tarring SSX m. 1880 Henry Humphrey Gardner
1 child John.
Any Census records available on this family/ death records, John's ch. any other children and death records of Mary and Henry Gardner?
Cheers
Velcro
-
Hi
So we only know have Elizabeth to research now as I found Ann buried 11 Nov 1825 aged 19 West Tarring SSX. and Mary Jane Gardner's death and marriage records! Much appreciate this grand effort.
Big puzzle brought together!
Cheers
Velcro
-
Hi
Have Jane Barker ch.4 Nov 1804 West Tarring, m.15 May 1828 St Andrews Ch.W.T SSX
to William Miles b.1799 Angmering SSX She died 2 Nov 1880 Angmering. Buried St MArgaret's Ch yard Angmering SSX.Have found her children.
With Ann pasing at 19 probably didn't marry.
I know I could have reseaeched the sires you suggested but watching the records unfold is fantastic and much appreciated. I couldnt research as fast as the records were coming thru. Thank you very much.
Cheers
Velcro
-
Velcro,
I noticed Broadwater crop up a few times - it's not far from West Tarring - so another site worth checking is Barries Genealogy (http://www.barriesgenealogy.co.uk/). He's done a great job transcribing many of the Worthing and Broadwater parish registers.
Stovepipe
-
So we only know have Elizabeth to research now
I did Elizabeth this morning - did you not read the posts?
i am slightly confused about your question about Sarah - (7 posts ago at 10.05) - about whether she married. I found her as single in 1871, 81 and 91 and then her death as Sarah Barker, so No she didnt marry.
In the same post you ask for info about a corn and seed factory. Thomas was a corn and seed factor - I believe that means buyer and seller. I doubt very much there is a "site" about his business, but you could try Kelly's directory or similar.
I have done a lot of work here following this family, which I have enjoyed, but if you have enough interest to want to find out more about their lives you will need to do some research yourself! As Angela said, that is surely the fun of it!
And I can tell you from experience that this will take time and effort and probably money - the best part of family history research is when it gets beyond just a click of a mouse.
Are you able to visit West Sussex Record Office? They may have local directories, or land ownership records etc. If you wish to research the lives of Sussex families further, then you will indeed spend a lot of time there!
-
Hi
Have found Mary Jane Barker b. 1810 West Tarring SSX m. 1880 Henry Humphrey Gardner
1 child John.
Any Census records available on this family/ death records, John's ch. any other children and death records of Mary and Henry Gardner?
Have you looked for1881? on FreeBMD?
Hold on -- if she was born 1810 and you say married 1880, she was 70, so hardly likely to have a son.
-
What do you make of Sarah Barker annuitant ? Didnt know they received pensions back then?
The family is obviously well off, they are predominantly land owning wealthly farmers or in the corn and seed trade, and generally have "staff" .
I would imagine (and this is just a theory, needs proving before taking on board) that Dad (was that John or Charles?) was a farmer in West Tarring and that the farm in North Lane west Tarring passed to eldest son John.
It would be interesting to see if Dad left a will - I would imagine that he would have left all children well provided for and that could include provision for Sarah. If not, it could alternatively be that her brothers kept her. If she never married, and was of the class where women did not work, she would be reliant on family members.
I have looked on the NA site, but only found a will for an Edward - I would imagins he is related somewhere:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=290923&queryType=1&resultcount=2
But no - she would not have had a pension, she never worked as far as we can tell! And no National Insurance then!
-
tHe one I am favouring for Mary at the moment is:
1881
RG11 1114 10 11
Warminghurst House,Warminghurst
MAry Golds widw 70 farmer 450 acres bn West Tarring
Ellen dtr 35 bn Warminghurst
servants and ag labs
-
Working back on this one (and remember there is no evidence yet this is her)
1871
RG10 1105 5 2
Warminghurst House
George Golds 69 Farmer 440 Acres bn Ashington
MAry 60 bn West tarring
George 33 son bn Warminghurst
MAry Ann 30 dtr "
Ellen 25 dtr "
Arhur 20 son "
Frances Mary 4 g/dtr tradesman's dtr bn Kent Canterbury
Ellen 2 g/dtr " "
-
and 1861 the same
rG9 613 5 6
Geoge Golds 59 famer
MAry 50
George 24
Mary Anne 21
Ellen 15
Albert 13
Arthur 10
-
1851
HO107 1650 224 11
Warminghurst Place
George Golds 41 farmer
MAry 40
George 14
MAry A 11
Walter 9
Edward 7
Ellen 5
Albert 3
Arthur 11 mths
-
1841
HO107 1096 4
Long Bank? ? Farm Warminghurst
George Golds 40
MAry 30
george 4
Mary Ann 1
remember ages are rounded and no relationships given
-
So I cannot prove it is the right Mary, as the marriage is before 1837 and IGI has no offers.
yiu will need to go to parish registers to look for George Golds marriage to see if his bride was Mary Barker or not.
Or get one of their childrens birth certs to see if mums maiden name was Barker.
-
12th Feb 1835 George Golds of Warminghurst to Mary Barker otp West Tarring
Andrea
-
Dear Stovepipe
Thank you for forwarding the site of interest. Will have a look today and see what is relavant.
Many thanks.
Velcro
-
Me again
I did Elizabeth this morning - did you not read the posts?
Thanks for clearing up about the Corn and Seed factor. Was this a main product grown in the region at the time? Wasn't actually asking about his business as I thought it was an actual factory not he was a factor? :)
Put it this way if you didn't enjoy assisting persons like myself you wouldn't come to the party. Much appreciated.
When you know which sites to lookup then easier it is but when you are learning abit slow off the mark is I.LOL! ;D
Have been down that track before the internet took off and was sending away to England for certificates which can become very costly.
Live along way from England so a trip to West Sussex Record Office only via the net at present and can be a must do when we retire. We live down under.
Cheers
Velcro
-
Hi
Big mistake with Mary Jane's wedding date was late and a typo.
Thanks for picking that up.
Will look again for her Correct date of marraige.
Cheers
Velcro
-
Hi
Have been passed on a copy of John Barker' s Will.
Edwin Miles and William Cortis were also trustees of the will of John Barker, the father of Mary Jane Barker.
Henry Humphrey Gardner formerly of West Tarring, Sussex, now of 9 Anerley Park, Anerley, Surrey, Gentleman.
Mary Jane Gardner his wife (formerly Mary Jane Barker).
(John Gardner is the only son of this marriage).
So no need to look for more children.
Done deal here.
Cheers
Velcro
-
Hi
Now to find out the parents of this Mary Barker that m. George Golds. It seems not Mary Jane Barker dtr of John And Ann Barker or is it? Did she marry twice?
Cheers
Velcro
-
Have been passed on a copy of John Barker' s Will.
Edwin Miles and William Cortis were also trustees of the will of John Barker, the father of Mary Jane Barker.
Henry Humphrey Gardner formerly of West Tarring, Sussex, now of 9 Anerley Park, Anerley, Surrey, Gentleman.
Mary Jane Gardner his wife (formerly Mary Jane Barker).
(John Gardner is the only son of this marriage).
Are you SURE this is the will of the right John Barker? What address does it give for him? What is date of death? does it mention all his other children? etc etc.
What evidence have you got that this Mary is the dtr of YOUR John Barker, rather than the one that married George Golds? the evidence for that one being that on later censuses she is a) the correct age and b) born West Tarring.
Lets face it - John Barker with a daughter, Mary, are hardly unusual names!
-
OK, velcro, I think I have it sorted for you ::)
The Mary Jane Barker, dtr of John and Ann, that you are refferring to, is the one born 1843 ish, daughter of the John who is on your original list, and therefore grandaughter of the original John and Ann (nee Elmes).
She is the one I found with them in the 1871 census at North Lane Farm in West tarring, at that time she was 28, single and described as a "land owner".
By 1881, John and Ann her parents had died (I found the deaths for you) and it must be this John's will you have (he was born 1812 and died end of 1880 - dies that fit in with the date will was written and proved?).
Mary Jane must have just married H H Gardner - the 1880 date you have is correct:
Jul/Aug/Sep 1880 East preston 2b 583, Mary Jane Barker to Henry Humphrey Gardner.
ANd here she is in 1881:
RG11 1118 32 11
Church Farm West Taring
Henry H Gardner 40 Farmer
MAry J wife 38 bn West Tarring
Ellen 17 visitor
plus 2 servants.
Now, you could have found this entry yourself, 1881 is free to view, and the marriage is on freeBMD, and worked it out yourself! I have given you all the cesnsues for every child of John(senior) and Ann that arent on a free to view site.
One tip - watch dates carefully - there is no way this Mary Jane could ever have been the one on your original list, bn 1811ish.
Which leads us to beleive that the one who married Geroge Golds IS that one.
-
12th Feb 1835 George Golds of Warminghurst to Mary Barker otp West Tarring
Andrea
and thanks to Andrea for finding the marriage for you to help confirm that.
-
Hi great researchers ;D
I'm having a seniors moment here.
You have put forward that Mary Jane Barker married George Golds am I right that her parents are
John and Ann Barker nee Elmes?
The other Mary Jane Barker m Henry Humphrey Gardner formerly of West Tarring, Sussex, now of 9 Anerley Park, Anerley, Surrey, Gentleman.
Mary Jane Gardner his wife (formerly Mary Jane Barker). Who are her parents?
Confused LOL!
Velcro
-
Hi Velcro
The answer to your query is in the earlier posts. Read them carefully and you will find it. Have you drawn up a tree so that you can see clearly who belongs to which generation? That is an essential move. Please do it before you ask for any more help or you will confuse all of us!
Andrea
-
Hi ;D
Thank you for a grand effort everyone.
All sorted got through my senior moment and one big happy family now!
Cheers
Velcro