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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: lyndyloo6 on Tuesday 02 September 08 19:03 BST (UK)
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Hello,
Can anyone advise me as to how I owuld find out who owned the 'piggery' in the Grassmarket in the mid 1800's to the turn of the century.
Many thanks,
Lynda
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Hi Lynda
I'm not sure if it will take you up the the dates you are looking for but there is a list of Burgesses of Edinburgh on http://www.scotsfind.org/ This does include information about merchants and owners of stables etc in the grassmarket, so might have something of use.
Kirsty
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Hi Kirsty,
I have spent the last 2 nights trying to find anything on this site to no avail, so I am stll searching....
Many thanks for the suggestion.
Kind regrds,
Lynda
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Lynda
Have you any idea at all of the names you are searching for? We can search the census index would you believe with the keyword 'pig*' which brings up a list of names (pig owner/dealer etc).
Monica :)
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Hi There,
I have sat today and looked at census reports for the name Mackay, Mackee,Mackie. No luck, but maybe am missing something. It could be Mackay, Meechan, Dorian or something similar. I spoke to an elderly relative on Tuesday and she said that her grandmother had said that her grandfather had the piggery in the Grassmarket. Our Mary Jane Mackay 1883 was illigitimate. Her mother was also Mary Jane Mackay, but have had no luck in tracking her down in the census report. We are also led to beleive that the Mackays had the butchers and fishmonger in the Grassmarket and Candlemakers Row. This is all new information we got this week, so early days. But any help be much appreciated.
Kind regards,
Lynda
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I just looked through the 1881 census for the Grassmarket - not a pig keeper or piggery in sight: mason's labourers, dressmakers, shoemakers, washerwomen, carters, tinsmiths, a police constable, message boys, hawkers, pedlars, rag pickers, musicians, comb makers, plumbers, an ice cream maker, even a sausage skin maker, but no pig keeper. There was a dealer in fish - Elizabeth Malcolm - at 68 Grassmarket and several other fish hawkers.
A James Maloney was a fishmonger who lived in Candlemaker Row, but I don't think he lived at the shop.
Where does the Dorian name fit in?
Nell
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I've tried searching as you Nell, not getting anything either under those names unfortunately.
Monica
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Hi there,
I too have spent most of the evening searaching. It came up with 56,000 + matches, so Iwaded through them. Like you I spent a coulorful evening and trying to see what was what. got to page 8...lol. so I will spend a bit of time today. I did find a couple of pig keepers but not for the grassmarket though. Even though I have worked in this area for 10 years, up and down some of the closes, (I work with the homeless), I learnt a lot about the area. Even that there was a lunatic asylum up the Oldfishmarket Close. Thank you so much for your help.
Kind regards,
LYnda
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The name Dorian/Dorigan.
Well Granny was illigitimate. Her mother is listed as Mary Jane Mackay in 1883 when she was born in the West port. Mary Jane senior married a man with the name Maclaughlan. No one is sure of his first name. We spoke with my husbands oldest cousin, who was close to her granny Granny brought her up as her father was killed in WW2. She has had several strokes, so her memory is a bit fuzzed, bless, but she wanted to give us as much information as she could remember as she was at grannies all the time. She told us that when they walked through the Grassmarket, granny often said that her grandfather owned the piggery She also said the ther was a butchers shop in the Grassmarket and another shop in Candlemakers row. She also told that there was a hawker called Dorian/Dorigan who was a cousin. Granny was sent away to be brought up by the nuns in Aberdeen and returned to Edinburgh around 1900's and married in 1904.
So we are not sure if it was a Mackay that may have owned the piggery or her fathers parents, of whom we do not know the name. I have spent 2 years trying to peice this together and am no further forward. And I cant go any further back as I have no certificates for Mary Jane senior.
But thank you for your help. I know that one day, it will all open out when I dont expect it too....
Kind regards,
Lynda
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Lynda
Is Mary Jane b. 1883 'Granny'? I'm just trying to get an idea of time-frame and people's ages/birth years? If so, do you have a list of her children from her subsequent marriage - any clues there on the names?
The cousin Dorian/Dorigan was a cousin to Granny?
Monica
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Looking at your other post www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,323247.0.html - did you check whether the marriage found for a Mary Jane Snr was the correct one?
Monica
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Is this Mary Jane Snr. birth entry:
MARY JANE MACKIE Born 18 NOV 1870 Edinburgh
Parents: Father: MACKIE and MARY MACKIE
Monica
ADDED: Can't be the right birth :P - would make her 13 years old when Mary Jane Jnr was born!
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Hi,
Thats what we are working on.... not easy though as Mary Jane senior disappears... Looks like Mary Jane was her first child in 1883. Then in 1885 she had Bridget. Our cousin said that there were brothers, Peter and Tommy and a sister Annie. They were McLaughlans. However when I have done searches for them, Bridget is in an orphanage in Edinburgh, but the DOB does not tie in. Mary Jane was sent away to Aberdeen until she grew up and went into service in Aberdeen. I then got a Mary Jane McLaughlan (the mother) and Bridget in stirling in the 1901 census. However, the story now is that the family split up when their parents died. I don't know where the boys are or what happened to them. Certainly on the marriage cert for Mary Jane 1883, she has stated that her parents are dead. Her last surviving son died in January this year aged 87 and he had given me a photo a few months earlier of an older woman, younger woman and two girls. Now I have had these pictures all over and shown them to people and a photo of Mary Jane 1883, and the resemblance between the older woman and the photo of Mary Jane 1883 is striking.
The names I was given on Tuesday are, Meechan and Duncan Kelly. Believed that Annie married both these men. Apparently she was found at the bottom of some stairs. This was apparently somewhere in Fife. When Uncle Frankie spoke of this he said that she had been murdered.....
There was a Tommy McKay who married an Annie, who was a cousin to Mary Jane, 1883. There are links to Dundee through the Mackay family
The piggery and shops in the Grassmarket. And the name Dorian/Dorigan.
The whole story has been fairly complicated and confusing and has taken a long time to sort out.
Mary Jane married a Francis McGoohan/McGoochan in 1904. Tracing the McGoohans was difficult as they have come from Ireland and we have got no further back the the Gt Grandparents. Part of the reason for this was their illiteracy and their marriage was registered under the name Mcgowan in 1858. So there is a part of me wonders if they are Mcgoohans or McGowans. Thick Irish accent and all that. But on the marriage certificate it says that one of the Maiden surnames of the parents were Dorigan/Dorian, or that is how it transcribes...... So many mysteries, and no answers...
So this is where I am, and I have spent most of this summer working on this, gathering as much information before anyone else dies and trying to work my way through it.
Thank you so much for all your help... new eyes sometimes help resolve the mysteries
Kind regards,
Lynda
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Oh and I forgot to say, no-one ever spoke of Bridget as she commited suicide and the family were RC. So I will need to look at this when I put credits on SP next week.
Lynda
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Phew! No wonder you are going round in circles!!
Now...I think this is Mary Jane Snr with husband John McLaughlan (and its many transcriptions ::)) in 1891:
John McGlachine 40, porter, b. Ireland
Jane McGlachtein 37, b. Edinburgh ( c. 1854)
John McGlachtein 14, b. Edinburgh
Annie McGlachtein 11, Edinburgh
Mary McGlachtein 8, Edinburgh
Bridget McGlachtein 5, Edinburgh
Helen McGlachtein 2
Address: 133 West Port, St George Burgh, Edinburgh St Cuthberts
Monica
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You think..... oooooo I do hope so, that means that Mary Jane was with them in 1891. I will see what I can do with this info.. Thank you so much
Kind regards,
Lynda
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And Mary Jane 1883 was born in the 75 West Port, and Bridget was born at 32 Grassmarket, which is only about 500 yards apart. Trying to think where 133 West Port is now...
Thank you for this
Regards,
Lynda
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I think it would be on the right hand side as you go up the hill from the grassmarket, between Lady Lawson Street and Spittle Street.
Kirsty
Edit: The West Port Newsagent is 139 so just a few doors down from there.
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Where that horrible building is and the DSS.... Gosh I have stood at the bus stop there hundreds of times and I worked in Bread Street.
Thanks for that.
Regards
Lynda
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Is Bridget's birth in 1886 also showing as illegitimate? I can't see the 1901 entry that you referred to with Bridget and mum Mary Jane in Alloa. I can see a Bridget Mcloughlin, born Edinburgh, age 14, at the Asyllum Orphane in Lanark, Lanarkshire?
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Yes , Bridget was registered
Bridget McKay, Illigitimate, mother Jane Mackay, Fish Vendor, October 8th, 1885. Born at 32 Grassmarket, Edinburgh. Her mother made her mark. taken frm statutaory births ref 685/041008.
Regards,
Lynda
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That's a pity. Likely that Mary (or Jane as she may have gone by) and John McLaughlan never married? If family were RC and Mary Jane Snr was born before 1855, will be hard to confirm her parents except through her death cert.
Monica
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Sorry, just getting my bits of paper together..
the 1901 census shows a Bridget McLaughlan, est year of birth, 1886, relationship, daughter, Mother s name Mary, gender, female, where born, Edinburgh, registration number 489, registration district Slamannan, civil parish, Slamanan, County Stirlingshire. Address, Smiths building, Occupation, Pan Cleaner, Bakery, ED2,
Household schedule, 29, line 20
Household members name and age
Bridget, 15
Daniael McLaughlan, 18, coal miner born Edinburgh,
James McLaughlan, 5
Mary McLaughlan, 41 housekeeper.
Aalhtough Daniel is listed as Marys son, doubt that he would have been born the same year as our Mary Jane.
Lynda
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Lynda
You might be interested to know that 32 Grassmarket appears to have been a hotel of some kind, run by the Moffat family. Now the Apex hotel (previously site of Mountbatten Tower of Heriot-Watt University).
Kirsty
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I wondered about that as I htought it looked like a hotel/with a pub at the bottom. Our ancesters lived in such squalar in the Cowgate and grassmarket at this time.
Regards,
Lynda
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Lynda
That 1901 entry is not the right one, mother is born in Renfrewshire (lost the page now that I had with the results)
However..... :D :D :D I found Mary Jane's death. Give me a mo' to pull the info together!
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You are such a gem... thank you so much
Lynda
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Jane McKay/McGlaughlan died on the 1 January 1894 at 133 Westport. She was by then a widow of John, can't make out his given occupation. Age about 44. Parents James McKay, India Rubber worker and Mary Jane Michael, both deceased. Brother in law John McHale of 135 (looks like 5) Westport reported the death. There is a RCE attached, only differences I can see is age down as 41 and detail about cause of death (heart related).
Monica
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These are some of the children showing to James McKay and Mary Jane Michael, not surprising all after the start of official reg. in 1855 (due to RC)
HELEN MACKAY Born on 28 FEB 1857 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh,
JAMES MC KAY Born on 17 JUN 1859 Leith
HANNAH MC KAY Born on 28 JAN 1862 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
HUGH MC KAY Born on 25 DEC 1864 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
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Thank you so much, I have spent 2 years trying to get this info, this means that I can take Mary Janes side back further and maybe solve some of the other stuff. I am so grateful, you are a gem ;D. Just wait till my husband gets home and I tell him we have found Mary Jane senior. Many have tried over a period of years to find this info. Now I will try and find out what happened to the rest of them Do you think I should continue to look using the spelling that you have given me?
Aand just as I was about to post this, you have given me much more info to work on...
ooooo thank you so much
regards,
Lynda
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Its me again,
I have just gone to the top of all my possible certs and guess what.... I have the marriage certificate for them in my folder.They were married on 16/03/1892 at 16 West Castle Road, Edinburgh. Parents Mary Jane McKay,ms Michael, Deceased, and John McKay, Labourer. His parents are Peter and Catherin McLaughlan, ms Gorman. Living at 133 West Port. I printed this off on 12/06/07.... the answer has been there all along. But this is good as it narrows down the time of his death. And I have a bit of info on his mum. Mary Jane senior was a worker in the rubber mill, John was a mason's labourer.
Thank you again.
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I think this is her family 1861-81. All the children show as born in Edinburgh. Worth looking at the original entries on SP to check accuracy:
1861:
James Mackey 32, lab. b. Ireland
Mary Ann Mackey 40, b. Ireland
Patrick Mackey 12
Jane Mackey 9
Catherine Mackey 7
Ellen Mackey 4
Janet Mackey 1
Address: 3 Aitchisons Close, St George, Edinburgh St Cuthberts
1871:
James McKie 51, mason's lab.
Mary I McKie 50
Patrick McKie 22, plasterer
Ellen McKie 16
James McKie 11
Hugh McKie 6
Address: 75 West Port, St George, Edinburgh St Cuthberts
1881:
James McKay 58, lab.
Patrick McKay 30, plasterer
Jane McKay 27
James McKay 23
Margaret McKay 27, daughter in law, dress maker, b. Edinburgh
Frank McKay 5, grandson
Mary Jane McKay 2, granddaughter
Hannah McKay 9 Mths, granddaughter
Address: 71 West Port, St George, Edinburgh St Cuthberts
Monica
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;D Lynda it happens to all of us - that's why it's vital to keep notes of all previous research. You never know when you will go back to it in the future when you learn more info.
I wonder whether the children John and Annie who show in 1891 were John's from a previous marriage? If we have the right family for Mary Jane through to 1881, no sign of them there.
Monica
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o you think that Hannah may be Annie? just a thought.. they were certainly living at 75 West Port and that is where Granny was born. But what a life line you have given me. Once agian thank you so much, not just gt grandparents but also gt gt grandparents.
Kind regards,
Lynda
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Not sure about the Hannah and Annie, hard to say from just the index entries. They may be children of daughter in law Margaret - maybe she married Patrick? The original entry may be clearer and help with relationships. Can't see the John who shows as age 14 in 1891 anywhere as yet in 1881.
In respect of John McLaughlan (I would keep your options open at all times to any spelling variations of this surname...and then some!), I found his family in 1871 :D
Peter McLachlan 44, Mason's Labourer, b. Ireland
Catherina McLachlan 44, b. Ireland
John McLachlan 20, Brewer's Labourer, b. Ireland
Thomas McLachlan 18, shoemaker, b. Edinburgh
Martin McLachlan 6, b. Edinburgh
Andrew Crombie 40, shoemaker, visitor b Fife
Address: 14 Grassmarket Brown's Close , St Giles, Edinburgh New Greyfriars
Martin's BC in Edinburgh should include date and place of parents' marriage:
MARTIN MC LAUCHLAN Born on 08 MAY 1865 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
Parents:PETER MC LAUCHLAN and CATHERINE GORMAN
If Peter and Catherine died in Scotland, their death certs. will give you their parents' names...
Monica
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Lots of early deaths of children for the McLaughlan family by the look of it, going by the lack of entries on the censuses :'( These are the children showing to Peter and Catherine, again because of their RC religion, all post 1855:
1. MICHAEL MC LAUGHLIN Born on 25 FEB 1857 Edinburgh Parish
2. CATHERINE MC LAUGHLAN Born on 24 FEB 1859 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
3. PETER MC LAUCHLAN Born on 14 APR 1861 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
4. BRIDGET MC LAUCHLAN Born on 13 MAY 1863 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
5. MARTIN MC LAUCHLAN Born on 08 MAY 1865 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
6. CATHERINE MC LAUGHLAN Born on 11 NOV 1868 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
7. PETER MC LAUGHLAN Born on 14 OCT 1871 Edinburgh
The family in 1881:
Peter McLaughlan 52, Masons Labourer
Catherine McLaughlan 50
John McLaughlan 30, Masons Labourer
Martin McLaughlan 16
Peter McLaughlan 9
William Henderson 50, boarder b. Fife
Address: 30 High Riggs Inglis Entry, St George Edinburgh
Monica
Still no sign of John born c. 1877 ::)
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So much to work on. If Iremembr correctly Catherine McLauchalan died in 1901. Martin McLaughlan died in 1903 from TB. I had looked at this aI had aMary Jane marrid to Martin, but wasnot sure, so l eft it out.
Thank you again :D ;D :D
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There you go - all that previous research is paying off!
Annie born 1880ish, looks to have been married initially to a ROSS before Duncan Kelly, also a widower and a soldier, who she married in 1916 in Edinburgh. She shows as daughter of John McL and Jeanie McKay.
Jumping about a bit, but I'm now curious about the murder in Fife.... :o
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MeeeeeeeTo All I have been told by the late uncle Frankie, was that she was murdered having been 'dispatched' down the stairs. He was pretty sure of this.... but I gather there was no prosecution. Frankie loved his aunt Annie. So he may have been prejudiced. But he got quite irate when telling us about it. Then Maureen mentioned it again on Tuesday. Would be nice to know though...
Regards,
Lynda
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Ah..this is where some of the names you have been given show up, connected to Annie. Duncan Kelly died in 1939 at the Royal Infirmary, usual address is 15 Potterow (as per the marriage in 1916 where the address 88 Potterow is given).
He was a widower by now. I think Annie was married 3 times. The names showing for her are MCKAY, ROSS and MEECHAN. Francis Meechan, step son reported the death....could this be UNCLE FRANKIE?!
Can't easily see Annie's death.
Lynda, I think you should book yourself in to New Register House for the day and spend a day or two going through all the new names :)
Monica
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You have done so much.
Francis Meechan would have been annies son from her marriage to Mr Meechan. Potterow... Granny lived there for many years until she fell out of the top floor window and broke her back when she was cleaning her windows. Did not stop her though, cos the council rehoused her in a top flat in West Richmond place and she lived there for another 20 years. I willbook myself into Register House as I have a list of names now that need to be researched.
I am so excited now and cannot wait till my husband comes home from work at 5pm. No one has ever got past Granny, as when they came to the illigitimate bit they could not work past it. Maureen was kinda laughing a bit on Tuesday and said it would need a miracle to get past all this. Now we can have our family gathering in Edinburgh and look at all the information gathered by you today.
Many thanks again, ya wee gemm
Regards,
Lynda
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Tried searching NAS for any ref. to Annie. The only thing coming up was this:
Trial papers relating to Jane Ann McKay for the crime of attempt to murder at East Pier, Buckhaven Harbour, Fife. Tried at High Court, Perth
Only including it given the reference to FIFE 8)
Lynda, I think your stories about Granny and family are fascinating. You've made the 19thC Grassmarket come alive in my head.
Monica
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Your way ahead of me....what is NAS?
And do you think that could be the crime they were talking about?
I can assure you that the McGoohans were just as colourful and they just lived along the road in the Cowgate.....lol
Lynda
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National Archives Scotland....sorry....brain bit overwhelmed... did not know that I could look that up there...
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Time for a break from me (bad housewife and mother of soon to collect children from school 8))
Monica :)
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Me too.am just filling in the tree with someof the info that I have checked.... Thank you again
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Lynda
Just filling in some missing bits on the censuses. The 1901 Census entry for Mary Jane, staying with her paternal grandmother:
Mary McKay (other name McLauchlan) 18, granddaughter, domestic serv. , b. Edinburgh
Catherine McLauchlan 70, head, b. Ireland
Martin McLauchlan 36, son, Bricklayer's Lab, b. Edinburgh
Address: 58 West Port, St George Edinburgh
Monica :)
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I do think, as you thought, that Hannah might be Annie on the 1881 census. Annie McKay was born at 71 Westport, where the McKay family were in 1881, on 19 June 1870...which fits the 9 month old Hannah McKay, granddaughter in 1881.
Mother Jane McKay is down as pig feeder. So, following the family stories, we do have mention of pigs and fish, unfortunately, we are not seeing the ownership of a shop/piggery by the families.
We've got Annie therefore in 1881 and 1891 at home with family. By 1901, with mother dead, this is the closest I can see for her:
Agnes Robertson 54, head, widow, dressmaker, b. Haddinton, Haddingtonsh
Alexander Gray 30, Wholesale Chemist , b. Aberdeen
Annie McKay 21, lodger, Book Folder, b. Edinburgh
Address: 12 Glen St , St Giles Edinburgh
Struggling to find any marriages for her except the one to Duncan Kelly and as for deaths...no joy...
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Sorry took so long to get back to you but Ihave had to go and buy painkillers. Looks like I have broken a small bone in my wrist.....
I have this census report and this is why I followed through that investigation last year. I had Mary Janes mother married to Johns brother Martin....
The reason I asked about Hannah and Annie being the same person was that Uncle Frankie always referred to her as Anna.
My husband could not beleive it when I told him we had found them He says a great big thank you to you.
I have to ask which sites do you use for your info? I have never had so much help from anyone before. I worked at 77 Bread Street for a year and all these addresses are right next to where I worked. Literally next door, above the pub...lol
Kind regaards,
Lynda
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Poor you :'( How have you broken a bone on your wrist? Was it today...I'll feel guilty if you say yes with the all typing that has been done...
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Clever you Lynda - you've just made me think. I've searched deaths (and marriages for that matter) to death for Ann* and nothing...didn't think to check for Hannah....I wonder ::)
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:o :o :o She did die suspiciously of a broken skull (1 day), but the RCE words it this way:
Fractured skull caused apparently by the deceased having fallen down the stairs while in a state of ....intoxication :o
Now, did she trip or was she pushed - Uncle Frank certainly had made up his mind!
Hannah Kelly/Mckay, 48, died on 10 November 1929 at the Royal Infirmary, usual address 3 Potterow. Husband Duncan Kelly reported.
Monica
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Well done you. Uncle Frankie was right then....wonder if Duncan gave her a wee push... Wonder where the Fife thing came from... well we have sorted out truth from myth today.
My wrist , well I have a puppy who made a mess at 6am this morning and I went to clean it up and pushed the mop down and something went click. Gradually as the day progressed it has got worse...Just on the heel of my wee hand, but it will be ok...had worse.
Thank you again from both of us, I am spending time perusing the information.
Kind regards,
Lynda
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Hi there, Have been fascinated reading through this post, I am a Meachan whose father was born in the Lawnmarket, His father Francis who spelt his Meechan with a ee was married to a Mackay/Gore he also had uncles who were McGooghans , 1 called Frankie whom i think may have been a boxer, I know my grandfather had a brother called John.
My sister had a load of birth and death certificates, i will try and find them to see if i can help you out.
ps my father said he had an aunt whom he was told was murdered and she once did antique trading!
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Do any of you happen to know if uncle frankie mentioned in this thread was known as squeak?
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HI There,
Uncle Frankie was not known as squeak but his cousin was......why?
Regards,
Lynda