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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: janan on Wednesday 03 September 08 11:39 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone
I have decided to lock the original Carver Ramblings thread as it has become too unwieldy
Any new Carver descendants might like to see link below before joining in here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,21720.0.html
The original thread started out as a lookup for my Wrestlingworth Carvers. There is a lot of information concerning both Wrestlingworth and Southill Carvers and attempts to link the two families, plus wanderings to W Yorks, Cambs and Herts (and Australia) and Norfolk Carvers who wandered to E Yorks but haven'd been linked to the Beds lot. There are also links to various other of my Carver related threads.
I have no new info on my lot. Still hoping to find confirmation that the John Carver who married Elizabeth Merrington in Cockayne Hatley on 25 June 1781 is the one baptised in Dunton Sep 24 1758 son of John CARVER and Mary (Williamson/Willason)
Hope to see you all here
Jan ;)
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Hi all,
If you recall I was having difficulty tracing the final whereabouts of my grandfather Samuel Carver (died 1929) and his mother Emma (Cox) Carver (died 1928) in Leeds. I have finally cracked this one - they were both buried at the Woodhouse Cemetery. This cemetery now forms part of the grounds of Leeds University and has been cleared and it is now park land. The reason that I could not find them is because the Leeds Family Records Office have missed of a sizeable chunk of people from the index they use. I was able to confirm my suspicions in that they were in Woodhouse all along by requesting a viewing of the original burial register held by the Brotherton Library which is part of Leeds University.
Additionally, through my Uncle in Australia, I now have a portrait of Samuel Carver. This is the first time I have ever seen an image of him. I have attached the portraits here. To recap, this Samuel Carver (1887-1929) is the brother the Canadian Carvers (Jonah and George Thomas) and the son of Samuel Snr. and Emma. There is a family resemblance passed on to my father and myself based on these images - or at least I can see it anyway.
Neil.
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Hi Neil
Thanks for posting the picture. I've just compared it with the one of my great grandfather Robert Carver (over on the left here) and think there is some family resemblance. Glad you have finally found Samuel's resting place. I recently found that Robert, who died 1915, and his son also Robert, who died 1913, were both buried in the burial ground of the Three Counties Asylum. The Asylum is now flats - I haven't managed to find out what happened to the burial ground.
Jan ;)
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Thanks Neil for posting that photo (it almost looks like a painting?)
Thanks also, for the quick email - which brought me over here... ;)
I, too, have had family photos passed on to me recently and am including a photo of a young-looking Jonah Henry Carver here, as well. I have another photo of him, much older, but the quality is not very good. His trademark was his mustache, apparently...
It is my understanding JH Carver is buried in Royal Oak Burial Park in Victoria, BC, but that has yet to be confirmed...
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Hi BCsandra
Nice to see you again. Thanks for posting Jonah, that is some moustache! Again there seems a family resemblance to my g grandfather Robert on the left.
Jan ;)
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Hi All,
The pictures are very interesting but sorry to say I can't see any particular likeness to my father. Sorry not to have been in touch for such a long time but it's been a busy summer.
I've been reading through part 1 trying to see where my family fit into the picture. My dad was the son of Nellie Carver (born 1877 in Leighton Buzzard) who was the daughter of David and Annie. David was the son of Jesse (by the way when he married he put his and his father's profession as bailiff), having read part 1 I gather it's likely that Jesse was the son of John and Martha, John being the one born in 1758 rather than the son (1785)?
Ley
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Hi Ley
It does seem more likely that the John who married Martha is the one born 1758 rather than his son because Martha was 50 when she died in 1819. Unfortunately the marriage entry doesn't give anymore information. John the son, along with his brother Simeon, vanishes off the face of the earth.
Jan ;)
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Hi again - the weather is getting a bit chilly at this end so time to do more work on the Family Tree.
Question: I have info that a Mary Carver married James Bird on 3/6/1811 in Wrestlingworth, Beds. I don't have a birth date or parents name for Mary; but James Bird b/d 6/6/1790 in Cockayne Hatley, Beds. What are the chances that this Mary Carver is the daughter of John (1759) & Elizabeth Merrington, and sister to George and Young Carver??
I've tried looking in IGI and found b/d listing for James Bird and marriage to Mary Carver but no details on Marys' parents or her birthdate or place.
Also in the Bird family tree: James' niece, Sophia Bird married James Bartle - their son, William Bartle (b/d 13/12/1846 Wrestlingworth) marries a Maria Carver (b/d 17/16/1849) in 1868 Biggleswade. Maria's parents are shown as James Carver and Sophia in an IGI search but in searching for possible parents, the only marriage of a James Carver shown in IGI is the son of Young Carver who marries Annie Handley but that's not until 1852.
Lots of head scratching...but now I'm thinking I'll go search to see if there is a "Bird" family thread...
If anyone has any suggestions, ideas or info, I'd appreciate it! :) Thanks in advance!
Sandra
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Hi Sandra
The Birds and Carver are very tightly linked and yes it is Mary sibling to Young and George who married James Bird and their brother William's first marriage was to Elizabeth Bird - so 3 Carver brothers and 1 sister married 3 Bird sisters and 1 brother! Later there is a lot more intermarrying of the family. There is this BIRD thread which gives some examples
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,284535.0.html
Plus contains links dealing with James Carver and Sophia Breed. Their marriage took place in Sutton but is not on the IGI
James Carver of Cockayne Hatley to Sophia Breed of this parish on 15th Oct 1831
Jan ;)
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Thanks for your reply, Jan!
I'm sorry I posted the question as I should have dug into my box of papers a little deeper before posting it as I've pretty much found most of the answers there. I also had a look at the Bird family thread on RootsWeb which helped a great deal, also.
Sorry to have bothered you, thanks for your patience! :)
Have a great day!
Sandra
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No problem Sandra :D
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan - the latest 1:10,000 Ordnance Survey map still labels there as being a graveyard just north of the former hospital buildings on the north side of North Drive at Three Counties Asylum, although an aerial photograph I have of the site from 2000 shows the land in question as grass - no sign of any gravestones. Houses have been built on the field immediately east of the graveyard, with the name Shaftesbury Drive. The old hospital chapel lies just south of Shaftesbury Drive. Search Google maps for "Shaftesbury Drive Stotfold" and you'll easily be able to spot the chapel from their aerial photo.
http://maps.google.co.uk
(Although the hospital was universally known locally as Arlesey, it actually lies in the parish of Stotfold - and since it's been redeveloped for luxury flats and housing, Stotfold has been in the postal address. I can't help thinking Arlesey got a poor deal there - the name of their village is associated with the old Asylum, but not the luxury development!)
Richard.
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Hi Richard
Thank you so much for pointing me in the direction of the satellite map - the west drive is incredibly long, no wonder they originally had a tramway. The area of the burial ground is very clear and the view of the chapel particularly good. I hope one day I will get up there for a wander round and pay my respects to the general area in which my great grandfather Robert Carver is buried (and my gran's brother also Robert). In the book 'A Place in the Country' it says only staff graves had stones, patients were marked by small wooden of iron crosses numbered for reference. By 1897 there was an estimated 2000 graves and the burial ground was extended.
Jan
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Hi everyone,
Just on my way back from Australia where I had the great pleasure of meeting "cousin" Bev (Aussie Carver). We had a really good chat about the Carvers and I was able to go through her research notes. It was apparent from reading various emails that lots of people on this thread have info that may have only been shared with some not all (or I didn't recall having seen it! - senior moment?).
Anyway, once I get back to UK I will sort through this and see if indeed it was new to me and on the thread. If not, I will attempt to post relevant details.
I hope to be visiting Bedford in Jan for dome research, although whether I will find anything new is open to debate.
My thanks to Bev for her hospitality, good to meet you.
Chris
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Hi Chris
Glad you had a good time in Australia. I think you are probably right that there are bits of info floating around that we haven't all picked up on. It is very difficult to tell exactly what is on Part 1 anyway it is so rambling :D And then, as you say, email discussions have gone on outside the thread. It had been my intention to try and pull stuff together at some point and post a summary, but it just hasn't happened yet!
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
Well it's called Carver Ramblings! I don't know where we would be without it. I have so much research to sort out, must make a resolution to do it, may have more time at home if pound keeps on sinking!
Anyway a Merry Christmas to all the "Carver cousins", this one is going to be so different for us in Korea, but we probably will have a white one!
Chris
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Hi all,
Do we know anything about the Isaac Carver (1706) referenced here on this website?
http://www.hps.cam.ac.uk/whipple/explore/astronomy/mapsoftheheavens/thegunterquadrant/
Cheers,
Neil.
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Hi Neil
I don't know anything about him - but googling shows he appears in an article re instrument making in London (article not available to read without payment sadly)
Jan ;)
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hi Carver Cousins.
Seasons greetings from where it is even 23* in the sea !!! So we are drinking very cold beers.
Thanks for all the help since I had the great fortune to find this 'worm"
Janan remember there is also the John Carver of my line- son of Rev John and Ann- who was born sometime 1860s. "Captain" soldier John is probably/maybe the same John who married 11/5/1815 Ann Houghton Irthlingborough ( his sisters were also married there) and I recall seeing somewhere that he was a widow. Thus a previous marriage ??.
Sorry to continue to muddy the waters without concret facts. But it may be of help.
Aussie carver
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Hi, I will be visiting Bedford Archives on Monday and Tuesday. has anybody got anything they would like me to look up?
Chris
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Very kind offer Chris :D
The only Carver related work I will have to do myself but there is something else which I will PM you with
Thank you
Jan ;)
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Hi Everyone,
Intending to spend 2 days in Bedford, I was extremely lucky in being the only researcher there for most of Monday and had the Archivist James' almost undivided attention. One of his areas of expertise is Non Conformists and he was able to guide me through lots of records/books very quickly.
As an aside Bedfordshire parishes (apart from non-conformist records)are totally indexed and on IGI. There are relatively few Carvers appearing in these, especially pre 1700.
A major problem is that the Carvers mainly appear in parishes close to the extremities of Bedfordshire, so they could easily have come into Beds drom the surrounding counties (Bucks, Northants, Cambs). James also said that a lot of incomers came down the River Ouse from Norfolk (Kings Lynn to Bedford) in the mid 1600s.
As to nonconformists, they appear in parish records for marriages and burials, but not Baptisms, so I had little luck with my Southill lot. There are very few non conformist baptisms available for Bedfordshire. However, Southill Independent Church was founded in 1696 from the Bedford Independent Church which in turn had migrated from Wellingborough, so Northants may be a place for further research.
The nonconformists were strong in a few parishes (Carlton, Stevington, Keysoe, Southill), so my Thomas Carvel/Carver of Turvey may have had links with the first 3 or Wellingborough before settling in Southill. Interestingly there is a Samuel Carver, labourer, marriage to Martha Bankes on 7 Jul 1701 in Keysoe. Given the naming pattern of Samuel/Thomas/Samuel/Thomas etc in the family, perhaps this could be a contender for Thomas of Turvey, although he would have been young when he married in 1720. Martha was buried 23 Dec 1702, possibly she died in childbirth? But proving a link would be virtually impossible.
Having exhausted most avenues on the Monday, I decided to come forward in time and pursue the Carvers of Hitchin who I was fairly certain were my ancestors. I spent Tuesday at Hertford and had a most profitable day, the results of which I will post on the Carver of Hitchin thread.
Hope this makes sense,
Chris
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Hi Chris
Glad you had a fruitful time. I love the Bedfordshire Archives - they are so helpful.
Just been looking through the earliest Carver records -
Burials in Dean 1606 - 1616 include 2 Samuels and a Thomas. Dean now seems to be in Hunts.
Marriage in Sutton your namesake Chris Carver to Isabel Norman in 1551
Look forward to reading your Hitchin info
Jan ;)
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As an aside Bedfordshire parishes (apart from non-conformist records)are totally indexed and on IGI.
Just to clarify, all Beds parishes pre 1812 have been transcribed and the transcripts are available from BLARS or Beds FHS. Whilst virtually all have been extracted onto the IGI there is the odd parish that slipped through the net, Ravensden being one, and perhaps for a different reason, Everton being another. So "almost totally on IGI"!
David
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Hi David,
Sorry I did mean pre 1812, but didn't know anout the 2 missing parishes on IGI. Wish all counties were as organised as Beds!
Chris
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Hi everybody,
Does anybody "claim" the Mary Carver married to Jos Negus in Southill in 1780?
I can't place her from my known Southill Carvers, but wonder if she is the orphaned daughter of Samuel and Mary Carver b1761 in Hitchin.
Chris
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Hi everybody,
Does anybody "claim" the Mary Carver married to Jos Negus in Southill in 1780?
I can't place her from my known Southill Carvers, but wonder if she is the orphaned daughter of Samuel and Mary Carver b1761 in Hitchin. This might make sense as she disppeared from Herts after the death of her parents by 1767 and could have been taken in by her grandparents or uncle John.
Chris
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In message #83 in the first Carver thread Beverley listed a Mary Carver as a daughter of John and Ann Carver of Southill, taken from John's will. I don't know the date of the will, or if Mary was named as Mary Carver, Mary Negus, or simply my daughter Mary.
This might be the most obvious Mary, but it needs more research, particularly the will
David
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Hi David,
Thanks for the suggestion. John died in 1797 in Wellingborough and Bev has daughter Mary as marrying William Hall in 1803 in Northants.
Chris
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1911 census update on Emma Cox Carver (1854-1928).
Hi All,
Blessedly the enumerator for the 1911 census covering Emma made a mistake. He entered details of her children even though she was already a widow. The enumerator then crossed out these numbers but they are still readable. The intriguing aspect of the numbers is that she had eight living children in 1911 - these are known...
1. Jonah
2. Ada
3. George (aka Thomas)
4. Frederick
5. Fanny
6. Louisa
7. Samuel Jnr.
8. Thomas
...the really interesting bit is that she had four other children (twelve in all) who were dead by 1911. These four were completely unknown to me. So, on the presumption that these died in childbirth or soon after, we might have unattributed Carver burials of infants who belong to Emma Cox Carver. How have I missed four? Any ideas anyone?
PS: The number of years married is given as 28. Emma and Samuel Snr. were married 28 years and 10 months (1873-1902) which further validates the numbers for children as being genuine.
Cheers,
Neil.
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Hi Neil
I have a similar problem - my g grandparents Robert and Hannah Carver claim to have had 5 children born alive 2 of whom had died by 1911. However there is only one Carver death in Luton between 1893 and 1911 and that is Robert's father James.
Jan ;)
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I have found three good candidates for the missing four deceased children of Emma Cox Carver. (Always good when notes you took five years ago pay off!) They are:
Jane Carver buried 24.3.1888 Hunslet aged 2
William Carver buried 23.2.1889 Hunslet aged 4 months
Thomas Carver buried 4.2.1891 Hunslet aged 6 months
What I know of this family's movements is that the last activity I have in East Ardsley is through Lydia's death in 1884. They then seemed to have moved on. They were in Hunslet on the 1891 census. In terms of positioning:
They all fit around Samuel (b. 1887), Jane before and William and Thomas after and all before Thomas Edward (b. 1895 in Beeston Hill and not Hunslet). Additional credence can be taken that the 1895 Thomas was baptised 'Thomas Edward' which would make sense if a previous 'Thomas' had come and gone.
There is another infant Carver buried in the Hunslet cemetery; Jane Annie Carver aged 5 months but she was buried according to my notes too early for 'us' on 5.1.1880.
I do not have immediate access to Hunslet baptisms from this period so any help here gratefully received. It may be of course no baptisms took place...
Neil.
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...And while I've got the hood up. At nearby Woodhouse Cemetery, Leeds, we have two Carver infants buried who are also candidates for our missing bunch:
Alice Carver died 28.11.1897 aged 5
Florence Carver died 21.11.1897 aged 4
These two died within a week of each other.
Either one of these would slot neatly after the ones referenced above (born 1892 and 1893ish) and before Thomas Edward (b. 1895) who would himself be buried in Woodhouse in 1912. We know the Carver family moved nearer to the centre of Leeds around this period. Emma's husband (Smauel Snr.) died in Holbeck in 1902 and they were all in Holbeck on the 1901 census.
Cheers,
Neil.
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Wow! :D You've been busy, Neil!
Thanks very much for sharing the info you've discovered!(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/SVigna/Clipart%20and%20Graphics/lookie.gif)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d77/SVigna/Clipart%20and%20Graphics/Thanks3.gif)
Sandra
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Hi,
Can anybody tell me the source of the Samuel Thomas Carver apprenticeship to Edward Watts of Hitchin in 1744. If so, do you have a copy of the original?
Barbara has also found a baptism in Melbourn Cambs of Mary Ann d/o Joseph Stockbridge and Rebecca Ann Carver. Rebecca was mooted as being the daughter of Thomas Carver and Elizabeth Patson.
By the way, for those who don't read the Herts carver thread, I have finall proved that Samuel Carver (of Bowles and Carver fame) is the son of Samuel Carver who was apprenticed to Ed Watts above. We have now proved conclusively that we are descended from the Southill Carvers.
Chris
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Hi Chris
The information about the apprenticeship is from Inland Revenue records see
http://www.englishorigins.com/help/popup-aboutbo-appgb2.htm
This also clarifies the two names Saml and Thos
Samuel is the the forename of the apprentice, Thomas the name of his father :D
A copy of the actual indenture would be available from BLARS if it has survived - it probably doesn't contain any more info but would be nice to have.
Jan ;)
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Thanks Jan,
I checked when I was at BLARS earlier this year and they don't have the indenture.
Chris
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Hi Chris
Shame about the indenture :(
Jan ;)
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Thanks. That confirms another link which we had just surmised as probable. I now have confirmation of Thomas of Southill all the way down. Now I have to try going the other way back in time.
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Ooh er
There was a long message from Neil that I was going to reply to but now it has disappeared ??? :o
Anyone else see it?
Jan ;)
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I had a message yesterday that the topic had been split, but no indication of a new one nor could I find Neil's message!
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Ah, yes - I also received a message from Neil about a new posting, and then later he emailed me again saying after he had thought more about what he had posted and after further discussion he decided to have it removed...
I'm sure he will write his own reply here soon....
So you're not needing glasses nor are you crazy :)
Season's Greetings, all!
BCsandra
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Hi
Neil PM'd with the details of what he had previously posted and then asked to be deleted so puzzle solved :)
I have done little Carver research lately but do now have the records for my g grandad Robert Carver's year in Three Counties Asylum - he was a very heavy drinker and my great gran left him as a result. Also have the records of his son (my gran's brother) also Robert who was epileptic and spent 4yrs in the asylum. They both died there. All very sad, but it does make some sense of my gran's life and how she was, so well worth obtaining.
Seasons greetings to everyone
Jan ;)
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Did a first trip to the Lincoln County Records Office in a bid to tidy up the 'Lincolnshire Interregnum years' where in the late 1870s and possibly early 1880s, the Carver family branch that originated from Wrestlingworth and ended up in the Wakefield area, went a-wandering through the fenlands. The info below I found out is new to me.
Marriage: Billinghay, 14th Oct 1877 : David Carver & Rebecca Paley.
David 'full' age (I estimate 36) and a bachelor labourer.
Rebecca - 17 yr. old spinster.
Father of groom - Thomas Carver (which seems to confirm this is our Carver). No reference is made to his death in Feb. 1876 but his occupation is entered as 'labourer'. Father of bride is John Paley, also labourer.
Neither of the betrothed could read or write as all left marks.
Witnesses: James & Rebecca Rowett.
Burial Record: Billinghay, 5th March 1903 - David Carver, aged 67 (age inconsistent with census info we have on him.)
I can not locate a Rebecca Carver on the 1911 census, so checked out marriages for Billinghay 1903-12 - She's not there and there are no burial records for her in Billinghay 1903-05 (Fiche 1905-11 alas missing).
I recorded all the Lincolnshire Carvers on the 1881 census (19 in all) and whilst Rebecca Carver, aged 21, 'field labourer' and married, is in Billinghay, there is no record for David in the county. Wonder where he might have been? (I seem to recall Janan suggesting a while back he might have been in Micklefield on the 1871 census...).
I can find no evidence of any children.
Baptism record: Tydd St. Mary, 29th Jan. 1879 for Frederick William Carver, son of Samuel & Emma. Father recorded as labourer and living in Tydd Gote. Note scribbled in margin : "born 24th Dec. 1878".
Neil.
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Hi Neil
Yes pretty sure this is him - can only assume Besnor is a best attempt at birthplace as spoken to a Yorkshire man in a broad Bedfordshire accent.
1871
Micklefield
David Carver Boarder Mar 28 Lime Burner Bedfordshire Besnor
RG10/4739/40 Pg7
Jan ;)
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Hi all,
As Santa didn’t bring me anything I wanted this year (you know I should stop lighting that fire...) I’m hoping you might be able to assist/resolve in the quest to assimilate the Cambridridge Carvers with the Bedfordshire Carvers. My starting point is this:
• Some of our current number have been able to trace themselves back to the Cambridgeshire Carvers including an Australian connection.
• Whilst we may be reasonably sure there is some sort of connection between the two groups, we as yet have no definitive link established between them.
Are these statements valid/still valid?
Moving forward...
I have 71 Cambridgeshire Carvers on my tree descended from the Thomas Carver (circa 1700) who married Mary Bromidge; much of this info has been supplied from RootsChat contributions. A question I shall pose here; if there is a connection between the Bedfordshires and the Cambridgeshires – why did this manifest itself in Melbourn?
Furthermore I have a separate tree of 17 Carvers based in Melbourn between the late 1500s and early 1700s which I have no connection to either the later Melbourn Carvers or the Bedfordshire mob, for. Who are these Carvers? What happened to them?
Specifically, I have (and forgive me here, as I have ‘joined the dots’ a little presumptiously once or twice here...
THOMAS CARVER (d. 1601) married ALICE HITCHE (d. 1635) in 1592.
Children:
JOSEPHE (b. 1593)
JOHN (b. 1595)
MARYE (b. 1598)
THOMAS (b. 1601; d.1659)
Of these JOSEPHE had 4 children (wife unknown):
JOANE (b.1627; d.1627)
ANN (b.1628)
AMBROSSE (b.1629; d.1630)
MARYE (b.1631)
THOMAS married a MARY (d.1676) and had 2 children:
THOMAS (b.1640)
WILLIAM (b.1642; d.1699)
WILLIAM married an ANNE (d.1722) and had 3 children:
WILLIAM (d. 1682)
JOHN (b.1682)
ANN (b. 1684)
Summary of timelines:
My Melbourn I group run approx 1565 to 1722.
My Melbourn II group run approx. 1700 to the present day.
We have an overlap here. Can anyone see/suggest a link?
A key Wrestlingworth Carver is the William Carver of Dunton who was born in 1682 and died in 1759 leaving a will and a son called John. Again another overlap here.
Final question/suggestion/spanner-in-the-works: Perhaps there isn’t any connection between the Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire Carvers after all and that the Melbourn Carvers are one long continuation from the late 1500s to the pesent day?
PS: I’ll sneak one more in while nobody’s looking: Who was the Rebecca Carver who married Joseph Stockbridge (widower of Meldreth) on Jan 6th, 1829 in Melbourn. Rebecca had parent’s permission recorded so presumably would be in late teens.
Cheers,
Neil.
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Hi Neil
I can answer your final question Rebecca Carver who married Joseph Stockbridge was daughter of Thomas Carver a Baker of Bedford originally from Wellingborough and his second wife Elizabeth Patston. It is likely Thomas born c1759 was son of John the preacher. I have wills and parish record entries for this family. Another daughter Elizabeth in her will of 1832 leaves money to her sister Rebecca Anne Stonebride widow of Meldreth : she says should Rebecca and her children predecease her the money should go to William Crole Carver of Melbourn - so we do have at least one definitive connection between Bedfordshire and Cambs.
Also William Carver of Dunton is most likely the one baptised Sutton 9th Oct 1682 parents Peter and Joan (nee Russell).
I will give some thought to your earlier Melbourn Carvers
Happy New Year
Jan ;)
Just noticed Rebecca married with permission of parents - this is a puzzle as she was born c 1794 ???
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Hi Janan,
Happy New Year.
Good stuff to start the year on.
Been looking at my notes and I can now see why this Rebecca Carver was a problem for me. I have the daughter of Thomas Carver & Elizabeth Patson, (27 Mar 1794) in Bedford St. Peter as ROBERTA ANN CARVER. My notes also tell me that I sourced this information from the 1930s 'Australian' tree which appeared here some while back and I have also noted a baptism record for 'ROB ANN'. I may have simply mistranscribed the name but at least it is an explanation. However, it still leaves a problem because of the parental approval.
My source for this information is the parish register marriage summary held at the Cambridgeshire County Records Office. Rebecca is stated here as 'otp' and a 'spinster' (no ages given). The reference to the parents' consent being given comes from the bishop's transcript and not the parish register. The summary entry also points out the spelling of Rebecca here as 'REBBECCA'. The summary entry also states the marriage as 'by licence' (which may not be significant) and that the witnesses were John Newling and Frances Crook.
It could be the CCRO summary is incorrect; or that it is correct but that the source BT record is incorrect. It is easy to see how Roberta and Rebecca could get mistranscribed (perhaps by me) somewhere along the way.
I take it the sister Elizabeth referred to in the will is Elizabeth Islip?
Coming back to my previous posting, I was querying the link between the Bedfordshire Carvers and the Cambridgeshire Carvers. I'm still uncertain about this because whilst the Bedford St. Peter group are clearly in Bedfordshire and you have established the financial link through the wills back to the Cambridgeshire Carvers, they are effectively, are they not, Cambridgeshire Carvers who happened to have moved to Bedford. Therefore, they are not part of the Bedfordshire family group by established relationship (or at least on my tree yet)...is this a valid statement?
One other thing, the THOMAS CARVER buried in Melbourn on Jun 3, 1601 has the additional entry of 'Clerk Curate' for him. So we have as long ago as 1601 in Melbourn a religious member of the Carvers. The source for this was again the CCRO Parish/BT summary.
Cheers,
Neil.
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Hi Neil
Yes the will is of Elizabeth Islip, it is dated 1832. Her sister Rebecca Anne is a widow and I note there is a burial for Joseph Stockbridge age 47 in Meldreth 1831. Rebecca Stockbridge widow age 58 appears on the 1851 census in Melbourn birthplace Bedford. She is on 1861/71 as Rebecca A, still in Melbourn and born Bedford c1794. I think the Bishops transcript entry about parental consent must be a mistake - in fact just realised both her parents were dead by the time she married.
I agree that the Beds/Cambs link in this case doesn't mean a lot. The stronger link would appear to be the non-conformist ministry and the name Thomas. Interesting that you have an earlier Thomas in Melbourn. Maybe preacher descendants of his wandered into Beds and begat Thomas who married Mary Bromidge?
Jan ;)
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Crawled off my sickbed to reply (and pack for ski hol tomorrow).
Thomas Carvel/Carver (c1700-1762) married Mary Bromidge (c 1700-1758) May 1720 in Turvey. Settled in Southill Sep 1720.
Not sure where he originated, I had been of the opinion that he may have come over the border from Northants or from Norfolk, but perhaps he did come from Cambs?
Their known/assumed children:
Rebecca infant death 1728
*John 1733 - 1797
**Samuel 1734-1767
?Thomas? m Mary Vintinier nee Austin d 1794
*John 1733-1797 m Ann Dunton 1754 and became Rev John of Kirtling and Wellingborough
Their known/assumed children:
Thomas 1759-1809 Baker of Bedford m Eliz Grummitt and Elizabeth Patson. One infant death from 1st marriage, 6 from 2nd: Abraham, Catherine, Elizabeth, John, Thomas and Rebecca Ann
John c 1760 Capt in Army
James & Elizabeth infant deaths 1765
Benjamin 1768-1822 transported to Australia
William 1770-1825 b Kirtling d Melbourn another Rev
Also Mary, Sarah and Martha
**Samuel 1734-1767 apprenticed to Hitchin in 1744 married
1 Margaret Walker 1734-1758
one child Samuel of Bowles and Carver fame
2 Mary Prior 1740-1777
4 children Thomas, Mary, John and Elizabeth.
So no link top the Wrestlingworth carvers yet, but having just toured Cambs/Beds and Northants with Aussie Bev, I was amazed how close all the relevant villages were. The question I ask is where did your earliest Wrestlingwirth carvers come from?
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Happy New Year all
I have scrolled through all of the messages in Carver ramblings 1 and 2 and was not able to find reference to the date of death for John Carver married to Elizabeth Merrington other than a year of death. I checked my Wrestlingworth Parish Registers and found a burial in the Parish of Wrestlingworth, Bedford for a John Carver living in Wrestlingworth, age 68 who was buried February 10th 1827. I have not found any burial for Elizabeth Carver.
Marg
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There were Elizabeth Carver burials in Wrestlingworth on 30 Nov 1801 and on 31 July 1809. No ages were given so it will need reference to the parish register or the transcript to see if either of them was described as wife of John
David
I was the chief Carver of our Christmas turkey, but this is the only affiliation I can claim to this enigmatic family
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Hi everyone
I have the Wrestlingworth Carvers tracked back through Dunton and Sutton to a marriage in Potton of Peter Carvill and Joan Ancell in Potton 7 Jan 1609 with reasonable certainty, providing John Carver born c1759 who married Elizabeth Merrington is John s of John CARVER and Mary (nee Willason) baptised Dunton Sep 24 1758. I believe the Elizabeth Carver buried Wrestlingworth 1801 to be Elizabeth nee Merrington and the one buried 1809 to be Elizabeth nee Bird the first wife of William Carver son of John and Elizabeth baptised Cockayne Hatley 11/12/1783. I don't have any proof as sadly the registers contain no further info.
The other early Beds Carvers are in Dean including
Samuels baptised 8 DEC 1605 and 7 JUL 1607 father Thomas
Both may have died in infancy - burials 14 Feb 1606 and 26 Nov 1607. I do wonder if this family is connected to the Southill families given the naming pattern.
Jan ;)
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Hi Janan,
Re: Peter & Joan of Potton.
Concur there are a series of plausible stepping stones back to these people for the Wrestlingworth Carvers, alas without the definitive proof, as yet. For what it's worth, for a long time I was inclined to believe that although some of the links might eventually prove false, I tended to the view that all Bedfordshire Carver roads led back to Potton, the 1550s and Peter Carver, albeit in a possibly more circuitous/devious route and that the Cambridgeshire bunch derived in some way from the Bedfordshire Carvers. I am now less inclined to believe this scenario and more inclined to believe that the Cambridgeshire Carvers were the centre of the Carver Universe and that the Bedfordshire Carvers are a satellite of them and what link there is between them goes even futher back.
I, of course, have no definitive proof of this - it is more of a gut feel backed up by the following pontifications. Apologies if its a little woolly and high-falutin' in parts...
Social mobility (good modern phrase!). The two Carver strands seem almost chalk and cheese, right down the centuries.
The Cambridgeshire Carvers by the 18th and 19th centuries are the pillars of South Cambridgeshire society, becoming doctors, surgeons, lawyers, adminstrators. Carvers here are marrying into the top strata of Melbourn society in the Fordhams (owners of the local Bank) and the Beaumonts (landed gentry who owned most of Whaddon) and the Danseys (reported in Gentleman's Magazine). This doesn't happen overnight in these times, it usually takes many generations to achieve such social status.
The Bedfordshire Carvers on the other hand, are typically agricultural labourers, straw plaiters or tradesmen, such as our wheelwrighters. Us lot, (I'm almost tugging my forelock as I speak here), we end up in the workhouse or the asylum and not in the Society Gossip columns of the day. When we look through the Carvers of the 16th-19th centuries, there is an infinitesimally small amount of social mobility going on here (the glorious exception here being the Cambridgeshire one who 'opted' for Australia). I just can't see how the Cambridgeshire Carvers established themselves from the Bedfordshire Carvers and rose so completely in one or two generations. I feel it far more likely to be the other way round. In which case - what 'happened' to the Bedfordshire Carvers...?
The evidence is mounting that the Carvers gained their foothold in society in the Melbourn area through the development of dissenter/non-conformist religion. Then, through the Rev. William Carver and William Crole Carver, they become part of the religious/educational establishment, and I am inclined to believe that the success/profitability of this religious movement coupled with the desire to spread the word, led to the move into Bedfordshire, perhaps via Northants and Hertfordshire, through the likes of Thomas Carver-Bromidge, of the religion/church and perhaps swept up/generated the Carvers there. It would be only natural to do this through the extended family but the further you get from the centre (Melbourn), the less profitable and riskier an enterprise this becomes and the greater the probability of denudation of wealth, prestige and influence which in the long run manifests itself in descending the social ladder.
We have as long ago as the 1590s, a Thomas Carver in Melbourn who was the 'Clerk Curate'. This suggests two things to me, firstly that the Carvers in Melbourn were members of a religious order way before the Rev. William Carver came along. Secondly, I assume a clerk of any description must be able to read and write, which in the 1590s would place this individual in a very small, well-educated minority - suggesting even then that the Carvers here were already well-established in society. Surely, it would make more sense that the Melbourn Carvers of the 18th century were direct descendants of the earlier Melbourn Carvers, rather than of any Bedfordshire derivation.
It is fascinating how just when you think you might have a grip on the Carvers in this geographical area, it seems to slip away again. We are fortunate though that we may have the answer available to us. I know it was mooted earlier on these pages (I think by Chris) that DNA profiling amongst us might establish a link between the two Carver family strands. I don't know the ins and outs of this process, but it might well be the only way we are now going to settle this...did anything become of this suggestion, Chris?
Cheers all,
Neil.
::)
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Hi Neil
I have read and am still digesting your recent messages. My first thoughts are that I would be inclined to agree with you re the likelihood of the earlier Melbourn Carvers linking somehow to the Southill Carvers then a branch heading back to Melbourn. I still feel the Dean Carvers may also link to the Southill clan and would be worth further exploration.
Re social standing, yes the Melbourn 2 Carvers are higher up the social ladder, and maybe the earlier ones were too, but what of Thomas who married Mary Bromidge? - he was a labourer when removed from Turvey to Southill, so if he came from the earlier Melbourn line I wonder what happened to him?
And our lot? A separate Bedfordshire branch at least back to the Peter Carver of the 1550's? Again am inclined to think so. But as you say no proof.
Hmm all I've done is raise more questions ??? :-\ Some of which I seem to have deleted! ??? It was something about gaps, disappearing and appearing people. Er..
Thomas who married Mary Bromidge where did he come from? What happens to the children of the Melbourn 1 line? Thomas born c1640? John and William c1682? Where do the children of the Dean Thomas go after marriage?
Then the repeating names Thomas, Samuel, John and William suggesting connections - maybe they are in the gaps?
Jan ;)
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Hello Everyone
I have in my possession two certified copies of death which do not match up with any of my Carvers.
The first one which I obtained in 1985 when I didn't know much about my family is for Sam Carver, age 44, grocer master who died of heart disease August 19, 1897 in Manningham (?) Bradford. His wife Margaret A. Carver, widow of the deceased was present at the death at 1 Fraser Terrace, Manningham.
The second one received just recently is for the death of Thomas Edward Carver, age 16, son of Thomas Edward Carver (deceased) a linen glazier, of heart failure from acute diptheria on January 7, 1912, 7 Bakson Street, Burley, Kirkstall, Leeds.
If either of these certificates belong to anyone else, I can forward them.
Thanks
Marg
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Hi Marg,
The Thomas Edward Carver, linen glazier, is the twelfth and last known child of Samuel and Emma Cox Carver. The street name should be Bateson Street. He was buried in the now cleared Woodhouse Cemetery in Leeds. I do not have any information on the Manningham Carvers.
Neil.
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Hi,
Looking purely at NBI burials up to 1758, which I think are fairly complete for Beds, the Carvers are in:
Dean 1606-1616 inc Samuel and Thomas
Potton 1620-1677 with a few excursions to neighbouring Swineshead (3) and Old Warden (1)
Felmersham 1686 (1)
Sandy 1700 (1)
Keysoe 1702-1708 inc a Samuel burial and a Samuel marriage
Southill 1728 onwards
Dunton 1748 onwards
Tempsford 1753 onwards
I know most of these are close to the borders, but there is not much overlap in dates.
I know my earliest ancestor, Thomas Carver married Mary Bromidge in Turvey and resettled to Southill in 1720, but Keysoe is very close to Turvey. Could the Carvers have gone Dean to Potton to Keysoe to Southill and then spread out from there? I believe that Keysoe was also a strong non-conformist area which might support this theory as Thomas went to the Southill Independent Church. Or did the Dean ones go out of county to reappear in Keysoe. The naming pattern of Samuel/Thomas follows right through my family. The only slight nagging doubt for me is that Thomas's settlement certificate names him as Carvel and there was a group in Toddington 1679-1720 which includes a Thomas b 1705.
Anyway, I need more info on births and marriages in this period to see if there is a progression.
By the way, there is no doubt that the Melbourne Carvers descend from the Southill ones as do the later clutch in Ickleton (via London).
Chris
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Hi Chris,
Can I just run something by you.
I have 71 Cambridgeshire Carvers on my tree descended from the Thomas Carver (circa 1700) who married Mary Bromidge. I have a separate tree of 17 Carvers based in Melbourn between the late 1500s and early 1700s which I have no connection to either the later Melbourn Carvers or the Bedfordshire mob for. Do you know who these people descend from? There are:
THOMAS CARVER (d. 1601) married ALICE HITCHE (d. 1635) in 1592.
Children:
JOSEPHE (b. 1593)
JOHN (b. 1595)
MARYE (b. 1598)
THOMAS (b. 1601; d.1659)
Of these JOSEPHE had 4 children (wife unknown):
JOANE (b.1627; d.1627)
ANN (b.1628)
AMBROSSE (b.1629; d.1630)
MARYE (b.1631)
THOMAS married a MARY (d.1676) and had 2 children:
THOMAS (b.1640)
WILLIAM (b.1642; d.1699)
WILLIAM married an ANNE (d.1722) and had 3 children:
WILLIAM (d. 1682)
JOHN (b.1682)
ANN (b. 1684)
Cheers,
Neil.
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Hi
On earlier records I have found Carvel/Carvill/Carvile/Calver all appearing as variants for Carver within the same families ,so wouldn't be concerned by Thomas being named Carvel on his settlement certifcate.
If you add these variants to the NBI it doesn't make a huge difference except
Potton ends 1678
Dunton begins 1728
The earliest Potton record I have is
Marriage
Peter CARVILL to Joan ANCELL 7 Jan 1609
I have no idea where Peter came from. There is an interesting very early Sutton record
Marriage
25/10/1551 Chris Carver to Isabel Norman
But where they went I again have no idea. Maybe the Thomas who married Alice Hitche was one of their children, who knows?
Jan
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Hi Neil,
Sorry I have not looked that early in Cambs. However, the naming pattern of Thomas looks as though they could belong to us via a currently unknown place. I think my next priority is to look in more depth at the Keysoe BMDs, particularly the births if any.
Re the wealth of the Melbourne clerical family, Rev John of Wellingborough acquired land in Wellingborough and left some money to various children, though not immense amounts. Rev William started his school in Melbourne which was well regarded by some influential and wealthy families who gave him some important patronage. However, he also did not leave vast amounts of money. I suspect his most important legacy was a good education for his children, good social standing and influence through contacts via the school and church, carried on by his son Rev William Crole. Sounds as though little has changed in the intervening years?
I have several publications re the Melbourne Carvers which detail all this if anyone is interested.
Regards
Chris
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Hi Chris/All,
I should be in Cambridge Records Office some time next week if anybody has any requests.
I'm keeping an open mind for now about those pesky links between Bedfordshire and Cambridge. Will try to focus my attention on the early Melbourn Carvers.
Just a few other bits and pieces I've picked up along the way recently:
First World War Carver Casualties: Source Bradford Weekly Telegraph
Pte. A.E.Carver, 4 Pearson Street, Leeds Road, Bradford - wounded; in Norfolk War Hospital (report 12.7.1918)
Pte. Willie Carver, 41 Kitson Street, Windhill, Bradford - killed aged 36 years. Joined 9 months; employed by Garth & Rix (Painters & Paperhangers) at Windhill Bridge; 4 children (report 28.9.1917)
Will of Thomas Hockoll of Arlesey dated 29.10.1508; probated 14.11.(1508?)
Witnesses: Thomas Kerver (indexed as 'Carver')
Source: Bedfordshire HRS 1957 Wills 1498-1528; copy at Kew.
Bedfordshire Gaol Record: George Carver
Record ID: 9858
Commital Year: 1851
Reference Doc: BLARS QGV10/3
ID in Reference Doc: 986
Age: 19
Gender: Male
Height: 5 feet 7 inches
Hair Colour: Brown
Eye Colour: Hazel
Complexion: Fresh
Visage: Round
Identifying Features: Scar under the right ear
Occupation: Coach Painter
Education: Read and Write
Marital Status: Single
Birth Town: Newport Pagnell
Birth County: Buckinghamshire
Residence(town/village): Leighton Buzzard
Residence(county): Bedfordshire
Committed By: C.Hervey Esquire
Comments on Commital: Further examination
When Committed: 29/01/1851
Type of Gaol: Bedford County Gaol
How Disposed: From remand
Discharge Date: 05/02/1851
Record ID: 18636
Commital Year: 1851
Reference Doc: BLARS QGV12/1
ID in Reference Doc: 986
Age: 19
Gender: Male
Offence: F.ex
Committed By: C.Hervey Smith Esquire
When Committed: 29/01/1851
Type of Gaol: Bedford, New House of Correction
Discharge Date: 01/02/1851
General Remarks on Prisoner: from remand
Source: BLARS website.
Cheers,
Neil.
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Dear all
I have just started researching my family history and have found that my great-aunt Selina Coates married a Jonah Henry Carver of Sutton, Beds. in 1896 at St Peter with St Cuthbert, Hunslet Moor, Leeds.
In the 1911 census they have 3 children:
Victor Reginald Carver age 13
Clarence Edgar Carver age 9
Stanley Cox Carver age 4
Is this the same Jonah Carver whose picture appears in an earlier thread? Did he emigrate to Canada with his family?
Please excuse me if I've got this all wrong.
Regards
Sue
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Hi Sue
Your great aunt Selina Coates married Jonah Henry Carver of Sutton Beds. September 1, 1896 in St. Peter's Church, Dewsbury Road, Leeds, Yorkshire.
According to Victor Reginald Carver, Jonah came to Canada in June 1913 and settled in Victoria, British Columbia.
Jonah Henry Carver was a brother of my grandfather, George Thomas Carver.
Hopefully Sandra will receive notification of this post and she can give you more details.
Marg
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Hi Sue
Welcome to Rootschat and Carver Ramblings :D
Jonah Henry's great grandfather George Carver is the brother of Young Carver my 3xgreat grandfather.
Jan ;)
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Thanks to you both for replying so quickly.
I never met my paternal grandparents so I know very little about their family history. My grandfather's surname was Wilson which makes it even more difficult.
I came across this thread by accident and now I find I might even have Canadian second cousins!
Thanks again for your help
Sue
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Hi Sue
If you need any help with your paternal grandparents' family history post a query on the relevant county board and someone will come to your aid.
Jan ;)
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Hi Everyone,
I don't know if this is just a coincidence or not, but the surname Percival has cropped up twice as a witness to my Carver events in London. First as the witness at a baptism in 1822 and then at a death in 1864. I have no record of a Carver marrying a Percival, but just wondered if anyone else has come across such a link?
The only stray female Carver whom I haven't found a marriage for is Elizabeth bap 4 Apr 1795 in Hitchen, daughter of Samuel and Mary Prior.
Chis
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First as the witness at a baptism in 1822
Can you expand on this? I've not seen any London baptisms at that time with witnesses
David
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Hi David,
It was non-conformist and registered at Dr William's Library.
Chris
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Hi Chris
That explains it!
There's a parallel thread running on this board, Lugsden, who were also seriously non-conformist (baptist). It's very noticeable with that family that the same names keep cropping up, and it seems as though there was a small group of families, probably all members of the church, who intermarried through a number of generations.
Might that be the explanation with your London Carvers - the Percivals were members of the same church?
David
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Hi all,
I gleaned some additional details about our Melbourn Carvers from a trip to Cambridge which I did not previously have and which are included below:
Source: Melbourn Independent Baptisms 1800-1841; Non-Conformist Registers Collection.
William Henry Carver; son of William Crole & Elizabeth; bapt. August 7th 1820 (no birth date).
Louisa Scruby Carver; daughter of William Crole & Elizabeth; bapt. December 30th 1828; born November 20th 1822.
Edmund Carver; son of William Crole & Elizabeth; bapt. December 30th 1828; born July 4th 1824.
Frederick Charles Carver; son of William Crole & Elizabeth; bapt. December 30th 1828; born December 26th 1825.
Elizabeth Ann Carver; daughter of William Crole & Elizabeth; bapt. December 30th 1828; born November 6th 1827.
Algernon Edward Carver; son of William Crole & Elizabeth; bapt. August 8th 1830; born August 17th 1829.
Francis James Carver; son of William Crole & Elizabeth; bapt. May 13th 1832; born May 10th 1831.
Eustace John Carver; son of William Crole & Elizabeth; bapt. November 29th 1833; born May 16th 1833.
Julia Letitia Carver;daughter of William Crole & Elizabeth; bapt. January 10th 1837; born April 30th 1836.
Note: For some reason Mary Alice Carver (1821-1906) seems to have missed out amongst the family group for M.I.C. baptisms. The Scruby and Fordham families are signifcant members of this church and are intermarrying.
Source: Melbourn Independent Burials 1810-1916; Non-Conformist Registers Collection.
Rev. William Carver of Melbourn, 55, Dissenting Minister – died 3 Aug 1825.
Julia Letitia Carver, daughter of William Crole Carver, Melbourn, died September 12th 1858 in her 22nd year, buried September 17th 1858.
William Crole Carver of Melbourn, 71, formerly Preceptor, died 18 Jan 1865 in his 72nd year.
Note: Wikipedia definition of Preceptor...A preceptor is a teacher responsible to uphold a certain law or tradition.
Source: Melbourn Meeting Church Book Minutes started April 1st 1790
Fly-leaf inscription: “This Church Book was put into my hands in November 1793 – W.Carver”
Beneath inscription reads “Sept. 1825” (William died 3rd August 1825)
Source: Melbourn Ind. Members List
“Since death of Mr. Cooper (former pastor)...W.Carver settled as pastor March 6th 1792”
“Mary Carver “ (subsequently amended status of ‘dead’)
No Carvers registered before this time and the above implies William and Mary Carver were established Church members before 1792.
A couple of Carver references occur in the Great Eversden Independent Meeting House minutes:
September 13th 1798: “Mr. Carver to give ye nature of gospel church and ask usual question...”
September 10th 1809: “Mr. Carver of Melbourn...”
I take these references to mean our Mr. Carver was guest preacher on these two occasions.
Neil.
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The Buckinghamshire Carvers
Hi all,
I posted earlier about a George Carver who had a Bedford jail prison record (1851) and this stated he was living in Leighton Buzzard and was born in Newport Pagnell, which got me thinking because Newport Pagnell is in Buckinghamshire and I could not recall any previous discussion on these pages about Carvers in Buckinghamshire. As I was passing through the county last week, I did a 'splash and dash' stop at the County Records Office in Aylesbury to see what they might have. The good news is that a lot of their stuff is being placed on line by the Buckinghamshire Family History Society and this is searchable. From this I have been able to build-up a high-level summary of Carver activity in Bucks, of which we seem have the following people active in these parishes between these dates...
Ann, (Taplow, Gt. Missenden),1858
Charlotte, (Gt. Missenden, Masseydon), 1849-1859
Edward, (Chesham Bois, Taplow, Gt. Missenden, Chenies), 1810-1854
Elenor, (Taplow), 1822
Elizabeth * 2, (Newport Pagnell, Gt. Missenden, Chenies), 1807-1864
Ellen, (Upton),1844
George, (Newport, Linslade), 1834
Henry, (Chesham Bois), 1854
James, (Newport Pagnell), 1845
John, (Newport Pagnell, Hanslope), 1800-1851
Joseph, (Between Wendover & Ayle, Aylesbury), 1823
Margaret, (Etonwick), 1838
Mary, (Gt. Missenden), 1847-1848
Richard (Langley Marish), 1864
Rosamond (Newport Pagnell), 1851
William (Simpson, Newport Pagnell, Linslade), 1828-1864
The records include baptisms, marriages, burials and censuses but I would emphasize it is by no means complete and exhaustive and some records relate to being witnesses at marriages, etc.
So could these be Carvers straying over the Bedfordshire border westwards?
There are two pieces of evidence which supports this. The Bucks CRO had a dinky application which mapped geographically onto a county parish map records returned in a search. It immediately struck me that all the Carver activity was occurring in the east of the county and none in the west. Secondly the Buckinghamshire Posse Comitatus lists no Carvers in Buckinghamshire in 1798 which the researcher thought significant. Put together, this is implying a recent move into Buckinghamshire circa 1800 from the east.
I was able to look at a couple of census returns.
George Carver (b. abt 1832 Newport Pagnell) was in St. Pancras (22 Southampton Street) , London on March 31st, 1851 as a lodger and coach painter. He entered prison in Bedford later that year. I found the 1841 census return for him and this places him in Newport Pagnell with his parents and siblings:
John, 35, Coach painter
Elizabeth, 33
Rosamond, 11
George, 9,
William, 7
Henry, 1
All except John are born in the county(of Bucks) – so was John born in Bedfordshire around 1805?
I have been checking for matches to my existing tree for him and others and let’s just say I’m keeping my powder dry before going into print...(oh you tease!).
Another family unit might be Edward and Elizabeth; children - Ann, Elizabeth, Mary
So, this is how far I got and is as far as I can go right now. If anyone else does have further info on these people and/or observations, all welcomed.
Some notes:
Posse Comitatus was a military census of able-bodied men aged between 15 and 60 made for the Napoleonic Wars. Apparently, Buckinghamshire is unique, as its list is the only one that has survived.
I can not locate a present-day Bucks Taplow, but there is a Taplow just inside Berks. I am assuming this was previously in Bucks. The same applies to Etonwick, a.k.a. Eton Wick.
I think ‘Masseydon’ is a mangling of ‘Missenden’ as I can find no Masseydon.
I think the ‘Newport’ referred to is probably ‘Newport Pagnell’.
Langley Marish is more commonly referred today as Langley.
Coach painting seems to have been the Newport Pagnell Carver’s family business - (pushing the envelope out here) not a trade a million miles away from wheelwrighting methinks.
Hmmmm...whilst Rosamond is a new forename to me, the male forenames are all consistent with forenames in use by the Bedfordshire Carvers.
Rosamond is recorded this way and not as ‘Rosamund’.
Elenor is recorded this way and not as ‘Eleanor’.
Some of the people listed above could conceivably relate to more than one person of the same name. The above represent my best guess.
Cheers all,
Neil.
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Hi Neil
In Newport Pagnell 1851 John Carver 51 coach painter is born Masham Yorkshire so sadly not a Bedfordshire stray. Elizabeth is Towcester Northants.
Living Great Missenden Edward Turst Carver born 1810 is born Marylebone so again not a Beds stray :(
Searching all censuses for Beds born Carvers lving Bucks only one showed, in
1871, Annie carver 3 born Leighton Buzzard is lodging with Jesse and Sarah Heady in Drayton Parslow.
Sorry if this spoils any of your well-guarded theories
Jan ;)
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Hi all,
Just introduced to your two strings and read with interest.
Lots of Carvers in Wrestlingworth including my 4xGt Grandmother Jane 17.03.1799
Parents John Carver and Elizabeth.
I found lots of reference to Young who was christened on the same date and their parents but unfortunately no mention of Jane.
She appears on 1841 with William Betts and five children including Sarah Anne my 3xGt grandmother in Woodford.
She continues in Woodford to 1871 with her youngest son Edmund but minus ' husband'.
Has anyone any marriage info or burial details of Jane ( Carver ) or William Betts please.
regards
robsdad
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Hi robsdad
My 3xg grandfather was Jane's brother Young - not sure what that makes us ??? :) I will have a look through my notes and see if I have anything else on Jane.
Jan ;)
I haven't got anything on her after her baptism but I notice there is a death on FreeBMD of Jane Betts 75 in Warwick District Oct qtr 1875 Vol6d Pg349 - as I see your Betts went to Warwickshire could this be her?
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Hi Janan or should I say cous.
Thanks for your prompt reply.
I was under the immpression that Jane was in Woodford with Edmund in 1871 but I may be mistaken.
Her daughter Sarah Anne was in Birmingham in 1861 ( unmarried ) with my Gt Grandmother Mary Jane but not with her father.
I do wonder if they ever married as a William Betts 50 was in Shustoke Warks in 1851 but listed as unmarried although b. Woodford ( Details kindly supplied by Rootschatter Tassie )
I have not managed to view the various census pages in my library as yet.
regards
robsdad
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I think you need to check Northants Marriage Index before concluding that they didn't marry. They don't appear to have married in Beds, nor did they marry in Hunts.
David
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Hi David,
Will try in next half hour
regards
robsdad
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Hi robsdad
You are right that Jane is still in Woodford in 1871 but I guess she could have moved to Warwickshire in the 4yrs before the 1875 death - I can't see another possible death. By the way have you found her in 1861? I can't see her.
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
No could not locate her in 1861 , only Edmund - a servant in Woodford
You could of course be right about her move 1871-74 - just seems strange at 70+
But as you say age is right, maybe I should look for burial info ?
regards
robsdad
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Hi robsdad
You are right that Jane is still in Woodford in 1871 but I guess she could have moved to Warwickshire in the 4yrs before the 1875 death - I can't see another possible death. By the way have you found her in 1861? I can't see her.
Jan ;)
Hi Jan and David,
Enquiry re. Northants marriage index made as suggested by David and bingo William and Jane were married 25.02.1827 in Woodford - that will teach me to be suspicious.
Kindest regards to you both
robsdad
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Glad you've found their marriage. William may have been away working in 1851 and the Unmarried be a mistake as he is a lodger (or thay may have separated). I've looked every which way for Jane in 1861 but can't see her ???
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
Yes he may have been working away but he was still absent in 1871 so I have to track his whereabouts from 1851 onwards.
As I said Shustoke Warks is a good bet for 1851.
I must now try to get to grips with the Carver line now my appitite has been wetted with your Carver Ramblings - such a vast amount of info. there and we are all indebted to you.
regards
robsdad
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Hi robsdad
I don't know about indebted to me :D The first thread started out as census lookups for my Wrestlingworth Carvers and then .... well it just grew as other Carver descendants joined in. I hope the information is helpful to you and should you ever find out what happened to Jane and Young's brothers John (born c 1785) and Simeon (c1794) let me know won't you. As it is they appear to be baptised and then are never heard of again!
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
Yes will most certainly let you know about John and Simeon should I find anything in the future.
Kind regards and thanks again
robsdad
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Hi RobsDad,
You're welcome to what I have:
William Betts b. 1802; d. 11.1.1864, Woodford. (Father James Betts 1760-1806, occupation labourer; Mother Mary Warner)
Jane Betts b. 1796 Wrestlingworth; d. 1879, Woodford. Marriage 25.2.1827, Woodford.
Children:
Thomas b. 1827,
Josiah b. 1827
Selina Elizabeth b. 1829
Harriet b. 1832
Sarah Anne b. 1836
Hannah b. 1839
Edmund b. 1841; d. 1878
Mary b. 1843; d. 1844
Most of this information I sourced from a web-page some years ago now which I think I have a copy of somewhere...so I can not vouch for it's accuracy.
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To add to Easby's info.
Some of the Betts lineages became Baptist in Woodford in the later years.
Sandy
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Woodford (near Thrapston) Marriage
13 Jul 1759 By Banns
White Bett (x) Woodford single man & Susannah Clark (x)
Both signed their marks.
Sandy
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Full details for William's marriage
25 Feb 1827 By Banns
William Betts (x) otp & Jane Carter (x)
Witnesses: Benjamin Betts (x) Diana Betts
As James & Mary had a son Benjamin I guess that is where the link
comes in for William.
Sandy
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Baptisms for children of White and Susannah BETT at Woodford.
10-Jan 1760, James, 20-Apr 1766, Martha, 26-Dec 1761, Mary,
02-Oct 1763, Philip
Sandy
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Baptisms for James and Mary Bett (s) at Woodford.
25-Feb 1781, Thomas, 28-Sep1783, Marian, 23-Jan 1785, Maria
12-Mar 1787, James, privately, 12-Jul 1789, White, 12-Aug 1791, John,
12-Aug 1792, Sarah, privately, 07-Nov 1793, John,
14-Jun 1796, Benjamin, privately, 14-Oct 1798, Benjamin.
20-Nov 1802 Wm Betts ?
Sandy
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Burials for James and Mary's children at Woodford.
17-Mar 1784, Marian, 21-Aug 1791, John, 23-Mar 1797, Benjamin.
James burial was 27 Apr 1806.
White's was 29 Jan 1789, Susannah's, 5th Apr 1801, aged 91.
Sandy
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I think I may have found Thomas Betts, son of William Betts and Jane Carver.
The 1851 census of Woodford Northamptonshire Thomas Betts age 23 married to Mary Betts age 23 (Mary Tiney), daughter Emma Betts age 9 months and Harriett Betts, sister-in-law age 17 (this should read sister as I think this is Thomas' sister.
I do not know when Mary died but Thomas and Georgina Lopes were married September quarter, 1861 in Northampton. I wasn't able to find Thomas on the 1861 census but it is possible to follow Thomas and Georgina from Northampton in 1871 to Sussex up to 1901
Marg
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Hi Easby Carver, Sandy & Marg.
Many thanks for the wealth of info. you have supplied, I was rather bogged down with the Betts line until being put wise re. Carver ramblings.
Just need to tabulate your recent finds. I must admit I'm a little stunned after such a long time drawing blanks.
Kindest regards to you all
robsdad
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I was looking at a film I have in the Mormon Library on permanent loan with regards to Bishop's transcripts in Sutton and Wrestlingworth and found the following information.
Baptisms
March 16, 1687, Eliza, daughter of Peter and Joan Carver was baptized
March 11, 1689, Alice, daughter of Peter and Joan Carver was baptized
Marriages
October 25, 1551 Chris Carver married Isabel Norman
I don't know if this helps anyone
Marg
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Sorry....should have mentioned that these baptism and the marriage were in Sutton
Marg
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Hi Marg
Thanks for posting those - I do have them but someone else may not.
I think the Chris Carver to Isabel Norman marriage is the earliest Beds ref we have - it is a shame that no children for this couple have yet been found.
Jan ;)
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Hi all,
I've come across some Huntingdonshire marriage records for people I can not match-up well, if at all. Anyone help? (It of course does not necessarily follow they are 'ours' at all)
1. Eliz. CARVER married Rt. (Robert?) LANGFORD w (widower?) in St. Ives 1786.
2. Elizabeth CARVAR married John BAKER in Gt. Catworth sometime 1701-54 (spelling of Carver as found)
3. Elizabeth CARVER married William SMITH in Gt. Staughton 1624.
4. Andrew CARVER of High Ferrers married Ellenor LAST in Godmanchester 1690. (think it should be Higham Ferrers)
This area might prove interesting if we are ever going to link-up the Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshuire Carvers as the above villages are in present-day north-west Cambridgeshire and are going in the right direction so to speak; of Wellingborough. They are about 15 miles apart. Higham Ferrers is just across the river.
Cheers,
Neil.
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2. Elizabeth CARVAR married John BAKER in Gt. Catworth sometime 1701-54
The marriage was in 1750
Do you want the other Carver marriages in Hunts 1701-54?
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Hi David
As Neil isn't around I'll say yes please for him, as it never hurts to have more information even if ultimately it turns out to be unconnected :)
Jan ;)
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Sorry, on closer examination of the fiche I find the names are actually CarYer not CarVer
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Thanks for checking David. Only one Carver marriage 1701-54 suggests there can't have been a large contingent in Hunts.
Jan ;)
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Bedfordshire Historical Record Society publication, vol 57 (1978) has an article on Joshua Symonds (1739-1788), the dissenting minister at the Old Meeting, Bedford from 1766-88. He kept diaries in which he criticised his own performance, so felt free to criticise the performance of other ministers.
When Mr Carver preached at Bedford in Sept 1779 Symonds said that he preached "many pompous expressions intermingled with bad grammar - judicious remarks but sentences very prolix and consequently obscure and less intelligible, neither did he discover so much unction as formerly"
Not sure which of the Carvers he would have been, but as he seems to have rambled I though it appropriate for this thread
David
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Hi David and All.
Nothing 'triggered' for me so I have not been here for some months.
Re: Preacher/Pastor. I have a note that Chris Carver on RootsChat had John Carver (1730-1797) as the Reverend of Kirtling and Wellingborough so he could be a candidate.
Cheers,
Neil.
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Just found something exciting....
John Carver was an apprentice to John Wilson of Wrestlingworth wheeler in 1777
at last, I've been trying to find out for years whether Young's father was a wheelwright in Wrestlingworth before Young himself ;D
Jan ;)
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Well done!
I'm going to break the habit of a lifetime and have a think about this (after a long lie down first) before going into print with my thoughts.
Cheers,
Neil.
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Hi Neil
The information on John Carver's apprenticeship is from the "UK Register of Duties Paid for Apprentices' Indentures 1710-1811" the date, 22 Jan 1777, was when the tax was paid which may have been some years after the apprenticeship was completed. John Wilson wheelwright was buried in Wrestlingworth 25 Dec 1779.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts :D
Jan ;)
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Margaret found a William Carver waggon-maker born Bedfordshire dying in Illinois in 1895 age 70. Further research has shown him to be the son of Young and Mercy born c1824 who married Maria Richards in Doddington, Cambs in 1849. The couple are in Wimblington Cambs in 1851, William is a carpenter. In Sep 1852 William Carver Wheelwright and wife Maria arrived in New York. Maria Carver widow is in Illinois in 1900 living with daughter Annie Taylor and her husband Arthur.
Jan ;)
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William and Maria were in Kincardine, Bruce, Ontario by1856 as their oldest daughter Esther D. was born August 10, 1856. That area was known as Upper Canada at that time. They then had Frederick in 1858, William James in 1859 and Annie about 1866....all in Kincardine, Bruce, Ontario. William and Maria were still in the same place in 1891 and by that time their children had left or married. They left sometime after that to live in Illinois, which is where Esther and Annie and their husbands and family were living. William died in Illinois in 1895 and Maria died shorthly after in 1904. They were buried in Graceland Cemetery in Chicago, Illinois.
Marg
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Hi Marg
Thanks for posting the extra info on William and Maria. Did you see my posts above on John Carver's apprenticeship? In addition I have found tax was paid for apprentices who served under him in 1783, 1792 and 1802.
Jan ;)
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Hi All,
Some excellent detective work going on here! I can't keep up.
Incidentally, I was born in New York and a few years thereafter left America having last lived in Chicago. I can therefore only applaud more North American digressions for the Carvers!
I’m off on a three-week holiday so I’ll jot down some observations for cogitation off the top of my head.
Given that the John ‘Dunton’ Carver received an apprenticeship, this lends weight to him being the start of the wheeler Carvers?
Does your info (Jan) mean we can rule out any other Wrestlingworth Carver receiving such an apprenticeship?
Re: the Hitchin apprenticeships (1744; Samuel 1734-1767). There is no evidence yet these are connected as this emanated from Southill?
John ‘Dunton’ Carver’s children:
William also Wrestlingworth wheelwright via Arrington.
John; married Martha Mitchel 1812 at Eyeworth; profession unknown?
George; also Wrestlingworth wheelwright.
Young; also Wrestlingworth wheelwright.
The mysterious Simeon Carver born circa 1794. No further sightings; perhaps he went overseas, too?
Neil.
PS: Biking my way to Switzerland; if I come across any Carvers on the way I'll claim them too.
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Hi Neil
Re your points
If John is "Dunton John", which I feel is most likely then he is probably the first of the wheeler Carvers
I agree that we are unlikely to find apprenticeship details for the other Wrestlingworth Carvers as they would have most likely learned from their father.
We have not been able to connect Samuel of Hitchin to the Wrestlingworth line.
Of John and Elizabeth's children that you list I believe their son John born c1785 also disappears and it is his father who married Martha Mitchel but have no proof. Martha was 50 when she died in 1819, but that doesn't rule her out as having married the younger John.
Enjoy Switzerland
Jan
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Hi,
Sorry to recap Jan but can it be confirmed whether it's Elizabeth Merrenton 1764 of Wrestlingworth ( Henry & Ann)
or Elizabeth Merrington 1766 of Dunton ( John & Sarah ) who married John Carver.
The latter would be only abt. 15 at time of marriage.
Appologies if this has been discussed previously.
I noted your two burial dates of 1801 & 1809 for Elizabeth deaths and I assume no ages have been found as yet from that source.
regards
robsdad
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Hi,
Sorry to recap Jan but can it be confirmed whether it's Elizabeth Merrenton 1764 of Wrestlingworth ( Henry & Ann)
or Elizabeth Merrington 1866 of Dunton ( John & Sarah ) who married John Carver.
The latter would be only abt. 15 at time of marriage.
Appologies if this has been discussed previously.
I noted your two burial dates of 1801 & 1809 for Elizabeth deaths and I assume no ages have been found as yet from that source.
regards
robsdad
Hi
To my knowledge it hasn't been confirmed who Elizabeth Merrington was, she and John were both living in Cockayne Hatley at the time of marriage which is of no help. The burials don't give an age, but we believe the 1801 Elizabeth could be Elizabeth nee Merrington and the 1809 one Elizabeth nee Bird (William Carver's first wife) but have no proof of this.
Not really very helpful :D
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
Thanks for your thoughts.
The only clue if you could call it that is that the last child of the 5 born to Henry & Ann Merrinton / Merrenton was in Cockayne Hatley 1770 ( IGI ) which is where John and Elizabeth were married.
Just a thought that it could have still been the family's and Elizabeth's residence in 1781 .
Trouble is the Merringtons were in Dunton ( John's village ? ).
Have you any thoughts on the ages of the two Elizabeths when married ?
regards
robsdad
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Hi all.
I recently got out the DVD of the BBC's 'Kibworth : A History of England' series.
A reason why this village was chosen was because of the records archive kept by one of the Oxford University colleges. The college was a major landowner in the village...this got me thinking re:Wrestlingworth.
I checked out my notes from way back (as in I wrote them down years ago). Around 1320 Wrestlingworth village was split in ownership between the de Kendales and a little later, the de Herefordes. In 1800, the then owner of Hereford Manor founded Downing College.
This is the blurb in Wikipedia for Downing College: "Upon the death of Sir George Downing, 3rd Baronet in 1749, the wealth left by his grandfather, Sir George Downing, who served both Cromwell and Charles II and built 10 Downing Street (a door formerly from Number 10 is in use in the college), was applied by his will. Under this will, as he had no direct issue (he was legally separated from his wife), the family fortune was left to his cousin, Sir Jacob Downing, and if he died without heir, to three cousins in succession. If they all died without issue, the estates were to be used to found a college at Cambridge called Downing."
Has anyone considered/have knowledge of whether records may be held at Downing College concerning Wrestlingworth, in the same way as the Oxford college had for Kibworth?
Thoughts anyone?
Neil.
PS: It would be delicious if there were any as it would be slap bang in the middle of the Carver dynasty in Wrestlingworth...ho hum.
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Has anyone whose research interests lie in the Bedfordshire line of the Carver family had a DNA test done? I ask because one of my relatives has done so and is awaiting the results. We hope it will link us to a branch of the family that went to America in 1621. Current status on the Norfolk branch is that the oldest relative (Thomas b 1680) had a decent sized farm and I have found a will for the widow Elizabeth Carver dating 1650s referring to that farm. So there may well be a link that could take us further back.
It is not impossible that the Bedfordshire Carvers emerged from Norfolk (or vice versa) or they both emerged from somewhere else and a DNA test might help prove or disprove that theory.
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Hi everybody, back on the case after a prolonged absence from any research. I have started once again to try and confirm the link between the Aussie Carvers and Rev John of Wellingborough and will be visiting Bedford Archives early in Dec to look at new leads.
On my last visit, the Archivist suggested that many people came to Beds from Norfolk and Suffolk via the waterways. I have had one suggestion that my Thomas (settled in Southill from Turvey in 1720) came from Ipswich, but have not been able to prove it.
As to DNA testing, if enough of us wished to take a test, I would be willing to participate assuming that the costs weren't too exorbitant.
Chris
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Hi Chris
I think the point regarding DNA testing is that if you know you are related, there is not much point in doing so to prove that, but if a group of known relatives wanted to test for links outside their known community then perhaps sharing the cost might make it more viable.
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Hi Everybody,
I'm not sure if anybody a) has any interest still in this thread or b) any new info/ speculation to add. Personally, the last 2-3 years have been dominated by family matters and my research has definitely taken a back seat. However, the last month or so I have been able to do a bit of research and also been through the thread again to see what I have missed/ forgotten.
If anybody is interested, I'll post my definitive thoughts on the Southill Carvers in a few days time.
Chris
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Please post away Chris, I'm sure it will be of interest. I have nothing new at the moment.
Jan ;)
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Hi (all),
Yes, very much interested in anything you come up with.
Likewise, my personal circumstances have meant I have barely touched the Carvers for two years(?) or more.
I am planning to get back into it when my current work commitments allow - perhaps October? And I promise not to mention the cricket or rugby, too...
Kind regards all.
Neil.
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Hi,
Just when I thought to put my head above the parapet (so to speak) and offer a few thoughts, 2 new observations were given to me, one of which I can't check until my return to UK in the middle of the month. (For the first time I have travelled without my laptop thinking I could rely on my IPad App, but I don't have access to the source documents).
The other would potentially solve our problems about where the Bedfordshire Carvers originate from as a lady contacted me claiming connections to Thomas Carver and Mary Bromidge. She claims the Carvers are from Sussex. I have asked for more info, so will wait to see what she has to say, unless anyone else has been down this route before.
Meanwhile, 2 other bits of news. Firstly, I have been tracing the Torquay Carvers (descended from Rev John) and one of them married Rear Admiral Ralph Lindsey Fisher (WW2 hero) and their daughter married the 4th Baron Spens. Secondly, I attended a family marriage a few months ago to a descendent of the Byng family who lived in the big house in Southill in the 17/18th century. I met a keen genealogist from this family who assured me that the family archives are still in tact and has promised to help me access them. I just haven't been able to arrange a suitable time yet.
More in 2-3 weeks hopefully
Chris
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Hi Chris (and Neil and others)
Sussex is interesting, or at least rings some vague bells, although I can't find anything in my Carver files. At some point I'll have a burrow in the West Sussex RO as there are some early West Sussex Carver marriages and burials showing on FindmyPast.
Look forward to hearing anything more your contacts may have
Jan ;)
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Thomas Carvel/Carver (c1700-1762) married Mary Bromidge (c 1700-1758) May 1720 in Turvey. Settled in Southill Sep 1720.
Not sure where he originated, I had been of the opinion that he may have come over the border from Northants or from Norfolk, but perhaps he did come from Cambs?
Or may he have come from Southill? Might he have been the son of William Carver who married Margaret Usher in Southill on 11 Feb 1655? I'm always dubious about looking further afield when there's a family of the same name in the same parish, particularly when it's not a common name, and more so when non-conformists are concerned.
Perhaps Thomas Carver was actually from Southill, rather than settling there, and he merely married in Turvey. A Thomas Carver of Southill was received into the Independent Church in Southill on 3 Dec 1719 so it looks very likely that he was the Thomas who married in Turvey in 1720 and who then had children in Southill. I don't think he "resettled" in Southill in 1720 as you put it on 9 Feb 2010, as it looks as though he was already living in Southill the year before he married. It's a bit early for the Turvey marriage entry to have more than the two names, but you might get lucky and the entry says Thomas from Southill.
I would be concentrating on Southill, rather than Northants, Norfolk, Cambs or Sussex!
David
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Of course you are absolutely right David! The Sussex Carvers are highly likely to be unconnected, but since I have a local RO going to waste so to speak I might as well see what happens to the families around in late 1500's to early 1600's.
As far as I understand the certificate of 1720 Thomas and Mary had been removed from Turvey to Southill but then it was decided that they were legally settled in Turvey so were to be allowed back - this implies to me that Thomas was from Southill originally.
Jan ;)
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Thomas Carvel/Carver (c1700-1762) married Mary Bromidge (c 1700-1758) May 1720 in Turvey. Settled in Southill Sep 1720.
Not sure where he originated, I had been of the opinion that he may have come over the border from Northants or from Norfolk, but perhaps he did come from Cambs?
Or may he have come from Southill? Might he have been the son of William Carver who married Margaret Usher in Southill on 11 Feb 1655? I'm always dubious about looking further afield when there's a family of the same name in the same parish, particularly when it's not a common name, and more so when nonconformists are concerned.
Perhaps Thomas Carver was actually from Southill, rather than settling there, and he merely married in Turvey. A Thomas Carver of Southill was received into the Independent Church in Southill on 3 Dec 1719 so it looks very likely that he was the Thomas who married in Turvey in 1720 and who then had children in Southill. I don't think he "resettled" in Southill in 1720 as you put it on 9 Feb 2010, as it looks as though he was already living in Southill the year before he married. It's a bit early for the Turvey marriage entry to have more than the two names, but you might get lucky and the entry says Thomas from Southill.
I would be concentrating on Southill, rather than Northants, Norfolk, Cambs or Sussex!
David
David, you preempted me. Some time ago I had asked an an acquaintance at SOG where I should go next. She finally got back to me and suggested that I might be misreading the Settlement Order or that it might be a removal order, either way I needed to check the original.
If it is a Settlement Order then indeed Thomas comes from Southill and was working at Turvey following his marriage. This would be confirmed by the entry in Southill Church Book "1719 December the 3d at our church meeting we received Thomas Carver of Southill"
There is then a very long absence with no mention of the Carvers until "1737 Oct 28. Conveyance of the Meeting House from the old trustees to the new trustees, one of whom was Thomas Carver labourer of Southill. and 1741 April the 30 Received Mary Carver wife to Brother Carver of Southill. " This may suggest that they had moved away for a few years, especially as his wife had not been received into the church until 21 years after marriage.
I note that there are 9 public member trees on ancestry which claim to have Rev John born in Sutton, Sussex in 1733, but I haven't been able to find any baptisms to support this (presumably because they were baptists?). But it could explain an absence form Southill. Was Sutton a nonconformist stronghold? Hopefully my new contact may help in this matter.
Anyway, my immediate thoughts are that Thomas is a descendant of William Carver and Margaret Usher m Southill 11 Feb 1655, probably grandchild, so where did they go? Perhaps William was one of the "immigrants" from Norfolk.
Intriguingly, I have found a nonconformist birth of Thomas Carver on 22 Apr 1687 to William and Mary Carver in Norwich, which would fit our theory well and might start to prove the link that Nick has been seeking. Perhaps Nick could comment if he has picked this one up before.
After that we only have to then connect the original Melbourne Carvers to Norfolk!
On my next visit to London I will definitely go to Dr Williams Library and in the meantime will do a bit of research into the history of nonconformism and see if there are any links to be had between the various areas.
And just to confirm previous posts, I have proven the connection between the Wellingborough/Melbourne lines descended from Rev John to the Hitchin/Bedford/London lines descended from Samuel and their origins in Southill. What I have not conclusively proved is that they are the sons of Thomas and mary, although it looks highly probable.
From a hot, humid and stormy Seoul
Chris
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The entry in BLARS online catalogue merely says "Certificate: Thos. Carver, labr., & w. Mary, Turvey". I've no idea if that's a Settlement Certificate given by Southill to Turvey or vice versa. It needs someone at BLARS to clarify. Logically, if Thomas was a resident of Southill in 1719 and wanted to live in Turvey after he married there, then Southill would give him a Settlement Certificate to take to Turvey.
Have you seen a Removal Order Jan?
David
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"What I have not conclusively proved is that they are the sons of Thomas and Mary, although it looks highly probable."
Silly me, of course I have proved one of them: the apprenticeship of Samuel son of Thomas of Southill in 1744.
It's the heat getting to me, not a senior moment....honest
Chris
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Hi
I have a copy of the Certificate which is listed in the BLARS catalogue - it was issued by the Overseers of the Poor of Turvey and, as I understand it, must revoke a Removal Order from Turvey to Southill which I've not seen. It states
"that Thomas Carver Labr and Mary his wife (who are lately removed from Turvey aforesaid to dwell and reside in the said parish of Southill) are inhabitants of and legally settled in said parish of Turvey untill they shall acquire a legall settlement elsewhere."
I've not seen a Settlement certificate Southill to Turvey which should have existed - if they were initially removed then perhaps it went astray?
Jan
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At this time I can't remember where I got my certificate from or the wording, so wil have to wait my return before I comment further.
Chris
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My interpretation, depending on the meaning of "removed" is either:
1. if removed is merely that he moved house ie "who recently moved from Turvey to live in Southill" , then his parish of legal settlement was Turvey and he wanted to move to Southill so was given a Settlement Certificate by Turvey. The wording sounds too "nice" to mean that they were recently the subject of a Removal Order ie kicked out of Turvey
or
2. if removed means that he was the subject of a Removal Order, then Thomas' parish of legal settlement was Southill. He moved to Turvey where he married and was removed back to Southill, but virtually immediately acquired settlement in Turvey but then moved back to Southill with a Settlement Cert. Which all sounds very convoluted and pretty far fetched.
I think it's 1), which puts the cat among the pigeons on my thoughts that he was a Southill boy. Unless he was a Southill boy; moved to Turvey where he acquired settlement; then wanted to move back to Southill.
David
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Hi Janan,
Apologies for long absence - but has anyone established what subsequently became of George & Lucy Carver (nee Turner), recorded on 1871c in St. Pancras, London with children Arthur, Albert and Jane; and younger brother to our mysterious Jane?
I ask, because I've not seen anything and I've come across something.
Regards,
Neil (Easby).
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Hi Neil
Nice to hear from you again.
I've not looked at my Carvers recently and haven't tracked George at all, so anything you've found would be of interest.
Best wishes
Jan
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Hi Janan,
via Ancestry.com I have scrutinized the New Zealand Death Index (1848-1964) and uncovered these:
George Carver (1880)
Lucy Carver (1902)
Albert Carver (1929)
Arthur Carver (1930)
These are all 'Wellington' entries. In addition, there is an 1891 NZ marriage for a Jane Carver to a Walter James Bass and an NZ marriage of Albert Carver to Annie McCallum in 1899. An 'Annie Carver' died in 1937 at Lower Hutt, which is also Wellington.
The 1878-79 Wise's New Zealand Post Office Directory lists at Abel Smith Street intersection, Wellington: George Carver, carpenter.
Finally, I also note that there is a Pancras, London death listed in 1872 for a Mary Turner of the right age to be Lucy Carver's (nee Turner) mother (she lived with them on the 1871 census), suggesting that any move to NZ by this family occurred some time between 1872-1878.
All this is circumstantial evidence as the current NZ records available are at the pointy end of brevity. Is there anyone NZ way who can help out here?
Cheers,
Neil (Easby)
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Thanks for all this - looks highly likely you've found George and family who certainly disappear from UK records after the 1871 census. I found a probate record on Family Search for George Carver who died 1880 intestate affidavit by Lucy Carver - unfortunately I can only view the first image although there are supposed to be 5! Also one for Albert affidavit Annie Carver and Lucy Marion Carver - again can only view the first image.
There are two cemetery records for Wellington on Ancestry for a Young George Carver and an Alfred George Carver - but I don't have access to the images.
I will post on the New Zealand board here and see if anyone can find anything else
Jan
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Hi Janan
Good to hear from you.
New Zealand Cemetery Records Wellington Taita Cemetery Public Burials, Volume 1:
Carver, Albert buried May 18, 1929 plot location 212 I C.E.
Carver, Alfred George buried June 2, 1943 plot location 24 16 C.E.
Carver, Ethel May buried Sept. 25, 1940 plot location 5 VI Presb.
Carver, Marjorie Ethel buried Oct. 13, 1941 plot location 5 VI Presb.
Carver Young George buried Jan. 16, 1965 plot location 5 VI Presb.
New Zealand Birth Index
Young George Carver born July - September 1878
New Zealand Marriage Index
Young George Carver married 1906 to Ethel May Fothergill
New Zealand Electoral Rolls 1853 - 1981
1935 Hutt, Wellington
Carver, Annie I. 1 William St. Lower Hutt Married
Carver Ethel May 3 High St. Lower Hutt Spinster
Carver, Joyce Alice 3 High St. Lower Hutt Spinster
Carver, Lucy Marion
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Last post got away on me....
1935 Hutt Wellington
Carver Lucy Marion 1 William St. Lower Hutt Spinster
Carver, Young George 3 High St. Lower Hutt Contractor
1938 Electoral Rolls Hutt Wellington
Carver, Ethel May 125 Richmond St. Petone Married
Carver, Lucy Marion 1 William St. Lower Hutt Spinster
Carver, Marjorie Ethel 125 Richmond St. Petone Spinster
Carver, Young George 125 Richmond St. Petone Contractor
1946 and 1949 Electoral Rolls Petone Wellington
Carver, Lily Alexandria 61 Riddlers Cresc. Petone Married
Carver, Young George 61 Riddlers Cresc. Petone Contractor
1954 Electoral Rolls Petone, Wellington
Carver, Lily Alexandria 61 Riddlers Cresc. Petone Married
Carver, Young George 61 Riddlers Cresc. Petone Contractor
Take care
Marg
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Thanks Marg. Nice to hear from you again :D
So Young George Carver is likely a son of George and Lucy and grandson of my ggg grandfather Young Carver.
Jan
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Hi Jan
Just information I found yesterday, without actual certificates, possibilities.
What can you tell me about Lucy Marion Carver? Do you know the names of the children of George Carver and Lucy Turner?
Marg
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Hi Marg
As you say without certificates no proof but the name Young George makes it very likely he is a child of George and Lucy born after they emigrated, since George's father was called Young.
In 1871, their last sighting in England, they have Arthur 7, Albert 5 and Jane 4
I don't know who Lucy Marion is, there is a birth for her in Wellington, so, depending on when that was, she may be a daughter or sister to Albert perhaps? I might be able to find out more if Family Search would let be see beyond the first image of Albert's will! It's letting me today she is Albert and Annie's daughter. Albert is stated to have been born in London.
Jan
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Hi Jan
I had something written out for you and I somehow lost it, but it had to do with the pages on Family History you have been able to get into today.
Did you notice the other two children, Clarice Lucretia Carver and Wallace Wheatley Albert Carver? Lucy Marion was born April 7, 1902 and died June 24, 1986 and buried in Waikanae Cemetery, Wellington, Clarice Lucretia was born 1905 and died 1945, and Wallace Wheatley Albert was born June 9, 1907 and died 1998.
There is site similar to the British BMD where you can get names, dates and registration number and then apply for a certificate.
Something else to think about.
All for now
Marg
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Hi Jan/Maggie
There's an ETHEL MAY FOTHERGILL on the Australian Birth Index (1788-1922) thus:
born 1880, Prahran, Victoria. (present day suburb of Melbourne, 5 kms from CBD). Father: Joseph Wilson Fothergill. Mother: Lucy Symons Cook.
If this person is one and the same who subsequently married Young George Carver in NZ, it would make her 26 at the marriage and two years younger than Young.
Cheers,
Neil. (Easby)
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Hi Jan/Marg.
Bit more...there is a WALTER BASS listed on the 1878-79 Wise's NZ Post Office Directory at the intersection of Buckle Street, Wellington as bricklayer. (Same listing as George Carver was on)
A JANE CARVER married WALTER JAMES BASS in New Zealand in 1891.
WALTER JAMES BASS, bricklayer, appears on the Electoral Roll for Lilyfield, Dalley, New South Wales, Australia for 1930-37. I can see other male BASSes on the ERs but no sign of a MARY BASS yet.
Cheers,
Neil. (Easby)
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Oops - reference to MARY BASS should have read JANE BASS (as in nee CARVER). Apologies.
Neil. (Easby)
-
Jan/Marg.
Two births for consideration from theAustralia Birth Index (1788-1922):
ALBERT BASS, 1899, Leichhardt, (Sydney) NSW.
ARTHUR BASS, 1903, Leichhardt, (Sydney) NSW.
Father: Walter J Bass Mother: Jane.
Leichhardt is a next door Sydney suburb to Lilyfield (see above).
Neil. (Easby)
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Thanks Neil and Marg - should keep me busy going through it all.
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan/Marg,
Re: Joseph Carver of Arrington (b. abt 1820) which I believe Marg posted some info a while back covering his passage to Australia in 1856. I've not seen anything more on him but I note the following death record from the ADC Australian collection (1787-1985).
QUEENSLAND: 16 Dec 1888, Joseph Carver. Father: William Carver. Mother: Hannah Pateman. Reg # 004359, Page # 2371.
Seems like he was out there all told for 32 years.
Neil (Easby).
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Hi Neil
Thanks for the information.
I am going to be laid up for a few months after knee surgery so I will have lots of time to look at everything.
Thanks again
Marg
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Hi Jan/Marg,
I too have been 'confined to barracks' on medical grounds. Having no current driving licence, I've spent time delving...
There is a possible marriage for our Antipodean Joseph:
Queensland, 11 Mar 1868 to a JANE MACKISON for a JOSEPH CARVER.
A Jane Carver dies in Queensland on 7th April 1878. Her parents are stated as: John McKerson (presumably a form of Mackison) and Janet Stirling. Not traced any of these three further, yet - and no sign can I find of children (Joseph at least would have been late forties). Curious, too, as to who was the informant at Joseph's death, given his wife predeceased him and somebody knew the maiden name of his mother.
Additionally, Joseph's brother David (b. abt 1826-8). He's on the 1841 and 1851 census (Biggleswade Union Workhouse) and then, methinks, turns up again in Wrestlingworth for the 1891 census. Interestingly, in 1891, David is stated as 'widower'. I had a look at any marriages in the intervening period and came across this:
6th August 1866, David Carver (full age, bachelor), labourer, of Doncaster Street, Liverpool, marries Margaret Rowland Kennedy (full age, widow) of Hopwood Street, Liverpool. David's father is stated as: William Carver, wheelwright. Also, David makes a mark and not a signature (got to be him, then!).
Do we have a view on this David Carver as being 'ours', despite it being Liverpool? None of the witnesses were Carvers and one of them (Carter) also made a mark.
Neil (Easby)
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Hi Neil
I would say it is highly likely you've found David. I wonder where he was in 61, 71 and 81? I can't see him anywhere. No definites as D C in institutions either.
Good find with Joseph's death too.
Jan ;)
-
A lead I've been following up (without success so far) is the David Carver on the 1871 census at Smardale. The location is near Kirkby Stephen, Cumbria and this David seems to be a railway navvy living on site with a lot of other such creatures in a 'Hut'. There are problems, though. This David is 'unmarried' and aged '55'. However, a big plus is that he was born in Bedfordshire, and this occupation could explain why our David has been so reluctant to put in appearances down the years and provide an explanation for inaccurate information being recorded for such itinerants. I also note that his brother Joseph also worked on the railways albeit twenty years earlier.
I've also tried to trace anyone named at the 1866 wedding, including the witnesses but without luck so far. Given the location is Liverpool and one of the surnames is Kennedy, I've even tried to check out any Irish connection.
Neil (Easby).
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Hi Neil
I think the David you have found in 1871, despite age being out a bit, birthplace being Beds rather than Cambs and wrong marital status, is still likely to be the right one. There certainly doesn't appear to be another candidate and being a lodger could explain the wrong information. I wonder what happens to his wife though? There is a Margaret Carver Head Married Lodging house keeper born Ireland living in Newcastle in 1871 - no husband so I wonder? I can't find what happens to her.
Jan ;)
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All interesting stuff.
My wanderings have taken me inadvertently over to Northumberland now - not for David Carver but back to 'our mysterious Jane Carver'.
There's a 17-yr-old Henrietta Lydia Carver at the Stannington Reformatory School on the 1871 census. She's not an 'inmate' but a 'servant' (how did she get here?). Crucially the entry for her states her birthplace as Wrestlingworth.
I've looked for any such person born around 1854 - no Henrietta can I see. But I can see a Harriet Lydia Carver. There is a BMD birth for her in Oct 1854 and a Wrestlingworth baptism on 29th Oct 1854. On the baptism only the mother is stated - Jane Carver. Could this be our mysterious Jane? She would have been 22 at the time and this 'bastard' child might explain why Jane never subsequently married or to whom/where she's moved away to?
I also note that the scales incident of 1874 you uncovered is only three years away from the 1871 census and could such misdeeds be literally, related at all? I.e. - might the dodgy mother's track record sleight-of-hand weaknesses explain how a Bedfordshire Carver girl (her daughter) ended up in a reformatory in Northumberland and that perhaps our H. Lydia went there as an inmate first and then stayed on?
How the plot thickens.
Cheers,
Neil (Easby).
-
Interesting that this possible daughter of Jane is in Northumberland - if the Margaret I found is David's wife she could have initially gone to work in the lodging house? Puzzles galore!
Thread for more on mysterious Jane here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=235940.msg1293452#msg1293452
I think Harriet is daughter of Jane Carver (d of William and Hannah) who married Joseph Gue in 1860 - they have a 6 year old Harriet Gue daughter with them in 1861. So perhaps even more likely she went up to Northumberland if I'm right about Margaret.
Jan
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I have a lead on the Jane Mackison who married Joseph Carver out in Queensland in 1868. The Jane Carver who subsequently died in Queensland in 1878, her parents were stated as John McKerson and Janet Stirling.
There's a record in the "Scotland, Select Births And Baptisms, 1564 to 1950" which names Janet Stirling and then lists a spouse John Mackison. It also references an Andrew Mackison. Alas, that's all I can see. I don't know what year it is, nor where the event occurred other than Scotland. I can't even be sure what the triumvirate's relationships truly are.
Any ideas? Help anyone?
-
Hi Neil
I have found the following:
Jean Mackieson Born 27 Oct 1815 Baptised 19 Nov 1815 Stirling, Scotland Parents John Mackieson and Janet Stirling
James Mackieson Born 16 Jul 1818 Baptised 26 Jul 1818 Stirling, Scotland Parents John Mackieson and Janet Stirling
Andrew Mackison Baptised 6 Dec 1835 Stirling, Scotland Parents John Mackison and Janet Stirling
Jan ;)
-
Encouraging, in that at least the period is rightish, even if there is no smoking-gun Jane. And there is a logical 'hole' in the offspring where a Jane might occur and be old enough to be striking out on her own and I note John Mackison is a seaman and the family does seem to disappear at the right time. I can see Stirling Jane Mackisons on the Scotland census, including one born the same year as Joseph. Close, but no cigar as yet, is another way of putting it. After much head-scratching, I've decided to park this for now. Ta muchly for the info.
Moving along the line a bit...new to me is a candidate in Canada for the eldest grandson of Emma Carver (1832-1910 b. Arrington and sister of Joseph). His name is Isaac William Darts (b. 1888 in Romford(Barking)).
I could not find him anywhere after the 1901 census in the UK and then found this:
Isaac W Darts (lab), departed Liverpool 19 Jul 1906 on board the Virginian (Allan Line) for Quebec, Montreal, Canada. Would have been 18. Note: the S S Virginian picked up the distress calls from the Titanic (1912).
I then lost Isaac again but had the idea he might have opted to be called 'William' instead of 'Isaac' (I know I would). This is what I found:
1916 Manitoba, Saskatchewan & Alberta census: William Darts [transcribed as Barts], b. 1888, 28, England; immigrated 1906 - resident 2310 4th St, West, Calgary. Nationality: Canadian. Origin: English. Religion: Salvation Army. Occupation: Odd Jobs. Wife: Annie, 31, b. Ireland, Immigration year: 1909, Irish. Nationality: Canadian. Origin: Irish. Language: English. Charles, son, 1, birthplace: Alberta.
Alberta births, marriages and deaths seem almost non-existent so I focussed on the voter rolls, finding this:
1940 ER Thirteenth Avenue West, Calgary - Darts, Wm, labourer; Mrs. Wm; C.Darts, labourer.
In addition, following our 'Calgary Charles' through the years...is ER evidence that Charles Darts starts as a labourer and becomes an engineer/plumber.
There is a Charles William Darts obit for 27th Nov 1992, in an Alberta newspaper (death stated as 25th Nov 1992).
ER 1945: Engineer, Calgary (30)
ER 1957: Engineer, Calgary (42)
ER 1958: Plumber, Calgary (43)
ER 1962: Plumber, Calgary (47)
ER 1965: Plumber, Calgary (50) as CHARLES W.
ER 1968: Plumber, Calgary (53)
ER 1974: Plumber, Calgary (59)
Supporting evidence here is that Isaac named his son Charles William, the name of his own father who was the son of Emma Darts nee Carver (married Isaac Darts as Emma Dimmock in Wrestlingworth, 1860).
I've only seen the obit index ref which includes its own reference to a Catherine. Charles William Darts would have been 77 on his death. No further info on Annie Darts found by me.
Cheers,
Neil (Easby)
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A couple of websites my investigations into the Canadian Darts have uncovered:
http://www.dartshill.ca/index.html
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/vancouversun/obituary.aspx?n=francisca-darts&pid=162145289
The Edwin Darts referred to I believe to be my 3rd cousin, 2 times removed and descended from Emma Carver (1832-1910)
Cheers,
Neil.
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Interesting Canadian rambles, you've been having.
On Family search there are death certificates for:
George Darts single, occupation Farmer, born Wrestlingworth Jan 1870 son of Emma nee Carver and Isaac Darts. Died in White Rock City, BC 1959. Emigrated to British Columbia 1898.
David Darts married to Matilda Crompton, occupation Farmer, born England April 1872 son of Emma nee Carver and Isaac Darts. Died in White Rock City, BC 1962. Emigrated to Canada 1893, in British Columbia from 1894
Jan ;)
-
I believe Fanny Darts (sister and a cook) also went to Canada.
b. Oct 1867 Wrestlingworth; d. 21 Jul 1910 in Sardis, B.C. Died as a 'Darts'.
Cheers,
Neil (Easby)
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YouTube videos exist:
One is tribute to Francisca Maria Darts by Douglas Justice, Associate Director and Curator of Collections, at UBC Botanical Garden...references Edwin, too. (3 mins 37).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViJM94cqE2Y
The second is a slide show re-composition set to music of Francisca's archive photos (with Edwin and some other family members as well, I guess) covering the development of Darts Hill Garden (11 mins 39).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxv3sMxzNkA
If you're into rhododendrons...
Neil (Easby).
-
I believe Fanny Darts (sister and a cook) also went to Canada.
b. Oct 1867 Wrestlingworth; d. 21 Jul 1910 in Sardis, B.C. Died as a 'Darts'.
Cheers,
Neil (Easby)
Fanny Darts 34 Cook of Bedford, England heading for Nelson, BC arrived Quebec City Oct 1902 on the Tunisian
-
I nipped onto the Netherlands equivalent of ADC (scary - all in Dutch) to source Francisca's maiden name as the Canadian side of things has drawn a blank. B:1916 Den Haag/The Hague. No joy, though.
Neil (Easby)
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Hello all
You have the correct Darts coming to Canada, specifically British Columbia. I also have a contact here in B.C. who is a family member. Right now I am unable to locate the name of my contact, so give me a few more days till I am a bit more mobile and I will send it to you.
Marg
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Hi All,
Apologies for diving about but the William Carver [Wm] who married Elizabeth Lawford [Eliz] at Sandy, Bedfordshire on 29th Oct 1693 - he's not on my radar. Is he on anyone elses? I ask because my general appreciation of the Wrestlingworth Carvers is that they drifted eastwards from Potton, i.e. from the general direction of Sandy.
Any thoughts? Or am I just opening up our familiar can of worms?
Neil (Easby)
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Hi Neil
As luck would have it this 2007 thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=267209.0
relates both to the drift from Potton and the William Carver who married Elizabeth Lawford in Sandy 1693 - no firm conclusions drawn about the latter but he might have been born in Old Warden in 1664 son of William Carver and Margaret Usher who married in Southill
Jan ;)
-
So - it's deja-vu (all over again!) ;D
Under the section marked 'news to me', this man I posit is my fourth cousin, one time removed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Carver
I think he's the son of Jesse Carver, b. Wrestlingworth 1876, d. Liverpool 1951; and Mary Hannah Carver nee Seanor (1878-1939).
Neil (Easby)
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Hi all,
I have developed a theory on Harriet Lydia Carver - see what you think.
Harriet Lydia Carver was baptised at Wrestlingworth on 29 Oct 1854. Only mother is stated - our hypothesis being it is Jane, who later married Joseph Gyue. (Jane, daughter of Young & Mercy having been discounted)
There is a Henrietta Lydia Carver b abt 1854, b. Wrestlingworth (Wreskingworth) in the Stannington Reformatory, Northumberland on the 1871 census - this person is being discounted as a red herring.
I found a marriage of HARRIET LILIAN CARVER to JOHN BOWLER at Elstow, Bedford, 3 Oct 1881. Others present: James Walten Carver; Charles Bowler.
1901 census: 6 Charlotte Street, St John, Preston, - John Bowler, 44, 'groom (not domestic)', b Elstow, Beds; Harriet L, 44, b. Wrestlingworth, Beds; Isabella M, single, 18, daughter, cotton worker, b. Caterham, Surrey; Millicent E,, 15, daughter, cotton worker, b. Croydon, Surrey; Florence E., 13, daughter, ring spinner (cotton), b. Bourn, Cambridgeshire; Alberta E., 12, daughter,b. Bourn; Jessamine E H, 11, daughter, b. Cardington, Beds.
1911 census: 3 Disraeli Street, Preston, Lancs - Harriet Lilian Bowler, head, married (29 years), b. Wrestlingworth, Beds; Millicent Eva, 25, daughter, single, card room, cotton manufacturer, b. Croydon; Florence Ethel, 23, daughter, single, ring spinner, cotton manufacturer, b. Bourne, Cambs; Alberta Ellen, 22, daughter, single, ring spinner, b. Bourne; Jessamine Elizabeth Hilda, 21, daughter, single, cotton worker, b. Cardington, Beds; Gertrude Eliza Jane Bunyan, 17, single, niece, card room rover, b. Wrestlingworth. 6 children born, 5 still living. John not present.
So, Harriet Bowler nee Carver and b. Wrestlingworth has her niece, Gertrude Bunyan [note ADC lists her as another Bowler], living with her in 1911. If Harriet is the daughter of Jane Carver who went on to marry Joseph Gyue this makes sense because she would have a half-sister Fanny Gyue who went on to marry Arthur Bunyan in 1891.
To my mind this would all mostly fit if it was not for the 1854 baptism stating Harriet Lydia Carver rather than Harriet Lilian Carver - who becomes Harriet Bowler - and becomes the aunt of Gertrude Bunyan, who's mother was Fanny Gyue nee Carver and Harriet Lydia/Lilian Carver's sister.
Piece of cake, really.
Although...
Easby (Neil)
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Hi all,
Some more Canadian/American Carvers coming up.
I've been working on William Arthur Carver, son of Thomas Carver & Eliza Arnold and baptised in Cockayne Hatley in 1867. I couldn't find out for a long time what happened to him but this is my theory based on the following evidence:
William married Kate Burke (b. Ireland) on 9th Nov. 1890 in Hunslet. I think they had five children, Rose b. 1892 Hunslet; Arthur William b. 1894 Hunslet; Nellie b. 1896 Hunslet; Frank b. 1898 Leeds (baptism located) and Gertrude b. 1901 Hunslet.
Frank I believe died in Bramley, aged 1, in Oct 1898, so does not appear on 1901 census.
On the 1901 census I can see William with his younger siblings and his own mother (now remarried to Thomas Dyson). He is recorded as married - so where is Kate and the surviving four children?
I discovered the three eldest Hunslet-born Carver children in the Rothwell workhouse and the youngest (Gertrude, 3 mths) in the Hunslet Union workhouse. [Note: I still have not definitively established that these workhouse Carver children belong to William & Kate]
A Kate Carver, was admitted to the Menston (north-west of Leeds) Lunatic Asylum on 14th Nov 1899 and discharged Christmas Day 1899.
A Kate Carver was admitted to the lunatic asylum on 23rd Apr 1901 and discharged again on 9th Apr 1902.
A Kate Carver was admitted to the lunatic asylum on 15th Jul 1902 and remained there until her death on 17th Jul 1907.
This scenario I believe provides a plausible explanation as to why the Carver children were in the workhouse and father William was living with his own family in 1901 - the wife and mother of his children being in and out of the lunatic asylum.
I do not have a death yet for William Arthur Carver but I think I know what happened to the remaining four children, the three oldest went to Canada whilst Gertrude died less than 1-yr old in Hunslet in late 1901.
Rose & Nellie Carver, aged 14 and 9, sailed on the same passage to Montreal from Liverpool arriving on 24th Jun 1906. The ship was the Ionian and they travelled steerage class. They are stated as coming from Yorkshire and their final destination is stated as Ottawa.
Rose and Nellie, still 14 and 9, then appear on the same page of the Index to Alien Arrivals from Canadian Atlantic and Pacific Seaports and with the same ref. no. 160, arriving at St Albans, Vermont, USA.
I have not found how Arthur reached Canada but there is a WW1 Canadian Army attestation record for him on 12th Sept 1916 at Valcartier Camp: Full name given: ARTHUR CARVER [no William], current address: Little Wood, St Lambert, Quebec; b. Leeds, England; next-of-kin Miss R Carver [Rose], Windsor Hotel, Cornwall, Ontario, SISTER. DoB: 1 March 1894; Laborer; Single; served 2 mths previously with 38th Battalion, Ottawa. Medical: 22 yrs 6 mths, 5 ft 4 in., Dark complexion, brown eyes, brown hair, Roman Catholic [does this come from his Irish mother?]
Arthur, with 'W' restored, is buried at Sarnia, Ontario in 1979.
Some questions:
Can anyone help definitively establish these children belong to William Arthur Carver & Kate Burke?
Presuming Rose, Arthur & Nellie were still institutionalised in 1906, would they have been 'farmed out' to Canada as they did orphaned/abandoned children to Australia - and how might this be proved?
What happened long-term to Rose and Nellie? Nellie seems to have made subsequent crossings to and from England, as a domestic maid stating her permanent address to be in Canada, perhaps travelling with her employers. Nellie always went steerage.
Finally, any flaws/holes/wrong turns in the evidence?
Cheers,
Neil (Easby)
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If they were British Home Children there may be details at http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/immigration/immigration-records/home-children-1869-1930/Pages/home-children.aspx
They were - they're both in the database
-
Thanks!
And Arthur, too.
I notice that Arthur's record contains a reference to the Catholic Emigration Association - but not the girls. Perhaps boys would have been more popular/wanted for this type of migration?
Given that the extended family in Leeds was massive (William had 8 siblings) and nearly all of them married, it's a wonder these children were not cared for by the Uncles and Aunts. Unless of course, in marrying Kate Burke, William became a Catholic and created a schism in the family? Just a thought.
My Leeds grandfather became a Catholic in order to marry his first wife. She subsequently died and I'm descended from my grandfather's second wife - with not a sniff of Catholicism anywhere since.
Neil (Easby)
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Going back to Harriet/Henrietta Lillian/Lydia Carver born Wrestlingworth 1854 - I agree with you that this is most likely the same person, I certainly haven't found a second candidate. Harriet is a short form of Henrietta so maybe the reformatory used the longer form of names regardless of whether that was actually the correct name. As for Lillian/ Lydia, there are some mentions online of Lydias known as Lilly and maybe this was the case with Harriet. Or she could have just married as Harriet Lillian rather than Lydia for reasons lost to us. My great grandmother was born, appeared on every census, on children's birth certificates, and died as Hannah but married as Mary Ann!
Interesting further Canadian rambles
Jan ;)
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Not been able to find out anymore about Rose & Nellie but I have found some more on Arthur with other Carvers now entering the fray.
1921 Canadian census: 699 Queen's Avenue, London, ONT: Arthur Carver, lodger, 30 [? guess], married, b. England; both parents English, arrived Canada 1906, Canadian citizen, Anglican, labourer; Agnes Carver, lodger, 23, married, b. England, both parents English, arrived in Canada 1913, Canadian citizen; Ernest Carver, lodger , 8 months, b. Ontario, 1920., both parents English.
Whilst the year of arrival in Canada is specified, for ages only a number is given. As for the relationships, the location has several other lodgers and although ADC state 'Head' for Arthur, looking at the actual entry close-up it does indeed say 'lodger' too. The obvious inference to me is that Arthur married Agnes (also from England) and they have a son, Ernest.
Electoral Roll info on Arthur from Sarnia (where Arthur is buried), Lambton West, Ontario:
1957 - Arthur Carver, retired, 893 Hagle Street. At same address: Mr Robert Carver (technician) & Mrs Robert Carver (housewife)
1962 - Arthur Carver, parking attendant, 205 Victoria Street North. At same address: Dollie Ferguson.
1963 - Arthur Carver, janitor, 205 Victoria Street North. At same address: Dollie Ferguson, Gladys Lawrence,
1968 - Arthur Carver, retired, 205 Victoria Street North. At same address: Dolf Jacques (ret), Edra Laughlin (ret).
There is an ARTHUR CARVER who sails from Liverpool to Halifax, Nova Scotia aboard Empress Of Britain arriving 25th Feb 1919. Returning home after war?
Neil (Easby)
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Arthur's WW1 records have been digitised and can be found here
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=91609
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Hi all (and especially Marg)
Re: MARY MELLEN (b. abt 1883)
You may already be aware of this but here goes...there is a passage for a MARY MELLEN, aged 27, nurse, aboard the Saturnia (Donaldson Line) departing Glasgow, 11th June, 1910, bound for Montreal.
That bit is new to me. My notes inform me that on the 1930 US census, Mary stated she was a nurse, 45, and born in 'England', as were her parents. Mary's age for the Atlantic crossing is entered in the column for 'Scotch' and 'Single, or unaccompanied by husband and wife'.
Hope this is useful,
Neil (Easby)
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Hello and Happy New Year to all
I am confused about Jane Carver, daughter of Young Carver and Mercy Bird, who was baptized in Wrestlingworth, Bedfordshire, June 17, 1835. Maybe we have discussed her and I just have not paid attention or maybe it is a result of the meds I am on for my knee operation, but where has she been between the time she was baptized in 1835 and 1871 when she is on the census with her mother Mercy who is a widow and a pauper. Her brother Alfred is head of the house and Jane, unmarried, is a servant. She is also on the 1881 census of Wrestlingworth, unmarried, 48, and a grocer. Her brother Alfred, 39, also unmarried is a Wheelwright. Jane is head of the house which is a greens shop.
What am I missing here?
Marg
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In 1861 she's a 28 year old servant born Wrestlingworth living at St Peters Green, Bedford
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Hi all and happy New Year
I have an old thread about Jane daughter of Young and Mercy, still none the wiser as to where she is in 41/51
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=235940.msg3182091#msg3182091
Jan ;)
-
Now have Ancestry.com DNA profile results for me:
Great Britain - 43%
Scandinavian - 24%
Irish - 20%
Iberian - 8%
Europe West - 2%
Italy/Greece - 2%
Asia Central - 1%
Milkman - 0%
Regards all.
Neil (Easby)
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Hi all.
I have being trying to trace what happened to WILLIAM ARTHUR CARVER, b. Cockayne Hatley, 1867. He is the father of the British Homes Children who went to Canada in 1906, namely, Rose, Arthur and Nellie; and was married to KATE [BURKE].
In the absence of finding any subsequent reference to William beyond the 1901 census, I am beginning to wonder whether the William Carver admitted to the Leicester Asylum just four days before his wife, Kate, was admitted to West Yorkshire [Menston] Asylum, is actually our William Arthur Carver.
I have nothing to link Leicester to our William other than the remarkably close proximity of the admissions. If this was our William, it would lend weight as to why his children went to Canada subsequently.
Can anybody help me find out more on the Leicester Asylum William Carver, please?
Data Source: UK Lunacy Patients Admission Register [ancestry.com]
William Carver, admitted Leicester Asylum, 15th July, 1902 [died there 2nd Oct 1902]
Kate Carver, admitted West Yorks Asylum, 19th July, 1902 [died there 17th July 1907]
Thanks,
Easby [Neil]
-
Hi all again,
I should have added to the above that the BMD William Carver death record for Leicester, 1902, gives a date of birth for him of 1867 - the same year as our WILLIAM ARTHUR CARVER was born.
Easby [Neil]
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Hi Neil
That certainly looks a likely bet for William Arthur. If I unearth anything more I'll let you know.
Jan
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Hi all,
A while back I traced George Carver (b. 1833, Wrestlingworth) to New Zealand, including his wife Lucy and three children, Arthur, Albert and Jane. I will post what I have been able to establish since, remotely - hope the layout holds up. The character limit on this forum means I have to split up the descendant relationship chart. I shall post a section for each child of George & Lucy; Arthur, Albert and Jane, plus another son born in NZ, Young.
The paucity of available on-line information means that I have lowered the burden of proof in some cases. Pretty quickly, too, we start hopping to and fro across the Tasman Sea to Australia.
Footnote : I briefly stopped off in Wellington last year and obtained a NZ marriage certificate for Arthur Carver (1864-1930) as a souvenir. Seems some habits persist, even in the land of the long white cloud. Arthur stated on the certificate that he was 21 years old - I now discover from revisited UK birth records and censuses that he was actually 17. In NZ at the time people under 21 had to gain approval from their parents to marry (Arthur's mother did not die until 1902) - it probably also explains why no Carvers were signatories to the register office event!
Cheers,
Neil [Easby]
-
1
George CARVER (1833 - 1880) b: 1833 in Wrestlingworth, BDF, d: 04 Mar 1880 in Wellington, NZ
+
Lucy TURNER (1833 - 1902) b: 1833 in St Pancras, London, m: 09 Jun 1862 in Haverstock Hill, London, d: 09 Apr 1902 in Wellington, NZ
...2
Arthur CARVER (1864 - 1930) b: 27 Jan 1864 in St Pancras, London, d: Apr 1930 in Wellington, NZ
+
Lena WESTBROOK (1858 - 1941) b: 1858 in Birmingham, WAR, m: 24 Mar 1881 in Wellington, NZ, d: Oct 1941 in Wellington, NZ
......3
George Alexander CARVER (1879 - 1943) b: 1879, d: Oct 1943 in Wellington, NZ
+
Flora Beatrice Alice MACDONALD (1882 - 1968) b: 1882, m: 1920 in New Zealand, d: 18 Apr 1968 in Auckland, NZ
......3
Arthur Everard CARVER (1881 - 1968) b: Jul 1881 in Wellington, NZ, d: 1968 in New Zealand
+
Patience Gait ORAM (1884 - 1962) b: 1884, m: 1912 in New Zealand, d: 17 Mar 1962 in Kerikeri, NZ
.........4
Matthew Arthur CARVER (1913 - 1988) b: 06 Dec 1913 in New Zealand, d: 13 Mar 1988 in Kerikeri, NZ
+
Patricia Agnes Mary [CARVER] (1918 - 1993) b: 12 Nov 1918, d: 16 May 1993 in Kerikeri, NZ
............5
Brenda CARVER
............5
Derek Matthew CARVER
+
Judith Mary [CARVER] (1948 - ) b: 02 Feb 1948 in Lancaster, LAN
............5
Shirley CARVER
............5
Frances CARVER
.........4
Pat Oram Lance CARVER (1916 - 1979) b: 25 Apr 1916 in New Plymouth, NZ, d: 1979 in New Zealand
+
Alice Joyce [CARVER]
+
Rhoda Ellen WAKELIN (1903 - 1958) b: Jan 1903 in Whangarei, NZ, m: 1936 in New Zealand, d: 1958 in Wellington, NZ
.........4
Bryan Wakelin CARVER
+
Ellen Agnes [CARVER]
......3
Ada Lucy CARVER (1888 - 1968) b: Jan 1888 in Wellington, NZ, d: 1968 in Wellington, NZ
-
1George CARVER (1833 - 1880) b: 1833 in Wrestlingworth, BDF, d: 04 Mar 1880 in Wellington, NZ
+
Lucy TURNER (1833 - 1902) b: 1833 in St Pancras, London, m: 09 Jun 1862 in Haverstock Hill, London, d: 09 Apr 1902 in Wellington, NZ
...2
Albert CARVER (1865 - 1929) b: Jul 1865 in St Pancras, London, d: 16 May 1929 in Wellington, NZ
+
Annie McCALLUM (1874 - 1937) b: 1874 in Auckland, NZ, m: 1899 in New Zealand, d: 16 Jul 1937 in Lower Hutt, Wellington, NZ
......3
Lucy Marion CARVER (1902 - 1986) b: 07 Apr 1902 in New Zealand, d: 24 Jun 1986 in Waikanae, NZ
......3
Clarice Lucretia CARVER (1905 - 1945) b: 1905 in New Zealand, d: 23 May 1945 in Auckland, NZ
......3
Wallace Wheatley Albert CARVER (1907 - 1998) b: 09 Jun 1907 in New Zealand, d: 1998 in New Zealand
+
Olga BETHELL (1920 - 2011) b: 05 Jan 1920 in Darlington, DUR, d: 2011 in New Zealand
.........4
Christopher John CARVER
-
1
George CARVER (1833 - 1880) b: 1833 in Wrestlingworth, BDF, d: 04 Mar 1880 in Wellington, NZ
+
Lucy TURNER (1833 - 1902) b: 1833 in St Pancras, London, m: 09 Jun 1862 in Haverstock Hill, London, d: 09 Apr 1902 in Wellington, NZ
...2
Jane CARVER (1867 - 1907) b: Apr 1867 in St Pancras, London, d: 12 Jan 1907 in Leichhardt, Sydney, NSW
+
Walter James BASS (1860 - 1941) b: 1860 in Merton, SRY, m: 1891 in New Zealand, d: 24 Nov 1941 in Leichhardt, Sydney, NSW
......3
George BASS (1893 - 1965) b: 17 May 1893 in Leichhardt, Sydney, NSW, d: 22 Jul 1965 in Sydney, NSW
+
Beatrice Ruby WRIGHT (1887 - 1951) b: 12 Nov 1887 in Newtown, Sydney, NSW, m: 1914 in Balmain, Sydney, NSW, d: 31 Dec 1951 in Bankstown, Sydney, NSW
.........4
Esmarelda Carver BASS (1918 - 2001) b: 1918, d: 2001
+
Denis McCarthy FRIZELLE (1920 - 1988) b: 01 Apr 1920 in Calcutta, Bengal, India, d: 1988
.........4
Alfred George BASS ( - 1993) d: 16 Aug 1993 in New South Wales, Australia
+
Mayty Amelia HARRIS m: 1938 in Canterbury, Sydney, NSW
.........4
George James BASS (1922 - 1987) b: 08 Oct 1922 in Bankstown, Sydney, NSW, d: 1987 in Sydney, NSW
+
Phyllis Mary FOSTER ( - 1985) m: 1943 in Bankstown, Sydney, NSW, d: 1985 in Sydney, NSW
............5
Dennis James BASS
+
Kathleen Anne [BASS]
......3
Samuel BASS (1894 - ) b: 25 Sep 1894 in Leichhardt, Sydney, NSW
......3
Albert BASS (1899 - ) b: 04 Oct 1899 in Leichhardt, Sydney, NSW
+
Hazel Lillian MARTIN (1888 - ) b: 22 Jul 1888 in Queensland, AUS, m: 1923 in Newtown, Sydney, NSW
.........4
Noel Albert BASS
+
Marcia Anne [BASS]
............5
Cassandra May BASS
......3
Arthur BASS (1903 - 1989) b: 1903 in Leichhardt, Sydney, NSW, d: 07 Feb 1989 in Sydney, NSW
+
Elsie May SPEARS (1909 - ) b: 1909 in Wollongong, NSW, m: 1931 in Wollongong, NSW
-
1
George CARVER (1833 - 1880) b: 1833 in Wrestlingworth, BDF, d: 04 Mar 1880 in Wellington, NZ
+
Lucy TURNER (1833 - 1902) b: 1833 in St Pancras, London, m: 09 Jun 1862 in Haverstock Hill, London, d: 09 Apr 1902 in Wellington, NZ
...2
Young George CARVER (1878 - 1956) b: Jul 1878 in Wellington, NZ, d: Jan 1956 in New Zealand
+
Ethel May FOTHERGILL (1880 - 1940) b: 25 Sep 1880 in Prahran, Melbourne, VIC, m: 1906 in New Zealand, d: 24 Sep 1940 in Lower Hutt, Wellington, NZ
......3
Betty May CARVER (1907 - 1989) b: Jan 1907 in Wellington, NZ, d: 02 Apr 1989 in Palmerston North, NZ
+
Clarence Victor TREGURTHA (1903 - 1987) b: 1903, m: 12 Jan 1932 in Petone, NZ, d: 21 Feb 1987 in Palmerston North, NZ
......3
Joyce Alice CARVER (1910 - 1997) b: Jul 1910 in Petone, NZ, d: 1997 in New South Wales, Australia
+
Kenneth Charles Beveridge DAVIES (1903 - 1976) b: Jul 1903 in Wellington, NZ, m: 1935 in New Zealand, d: 1976 in New South Wales, Australia
.........4
James George Beveridge DAVIES
......3
Marjorie Ethel CARVER (1913 - 1941) b: 1913 in Petone, NZ, d: 10 Oct 1941 in Wellington, NZ
+
Lillian [Lily] Alexandra PICKARD nee THOMPSON (1885 - 1983) b: 17 Feb 1885 in Hokitika, NZ, d: 1983 in New Zealand
-
Hi Neil
I hadn't realised that George and Lucy went to NZ (although you may have said somewhere in the thread) - nice to see they named one son Young.
I really ought to get back to researching my Carvers
Jan
So back in 2015 you, me and Marg had a long conversation about the NZ Carvers :-[ ;D
-
Hi All,
First up - apologies if any of this has been posted elsewhere and covers already trodden ground.
This post covers Bedfordshire’s William Arthur Carver (1867-1902) & Kate Burke (1869-1907) and their three children who went to Canada in 1906; Rose, Arthur and Nellie. In this research I am indebted to, the St George’s Home who were able to supply what they had on the children who went as part of the British Home Children scheme; and to those members of RootsChat who gave me the steers in the first place [see past postings].
To briefly summarise, I was keen to establish what happened to William who was one of the last Bedfordshire-born Carvers to migrate northward. At first pass he seemed to have disappeared down a black hole along with his wife and children. In a sense, he did, and it was not an immediate happy ending for his family. In finding an entry in the Lunatic Asylum admissions register for his wife, Kate, on the line immediately above was an entry for a William Carver, albeit confusingly in terms of where he went. Not to an asylum in Leeds, where his wife went but to Leicester. These two admittances occurred four days apart.
• William Arthur Carver died at Leicester Asylum on 2nd October, 1902, having been admitted on 15th July 1902.
• Irish-born Kate Carver nee Burke died at Menston [Leeds] Asylum on 17th July, 1907, having been admitted on 19th July, 1902.
Kate had two previous spells at Menston Asylum. She was admitted for the first time on 14th November, 1899; to be discharged ‘recovered’ on Christmas Day, 1899. She was admitted again on 23rd April, 1901; and again discharged ‘recovered’ almost a year later on 9th April 1902.
In addition to the three children who went to Canada, there are at least two other children:
Gertrude was born at the start of 1901 and died by the end of the year. At the time of the 1901 census, she was recorded at the Hunslet Union Workhouse, aged 3 months. This would have been 31st March; 24 days later her mother, Kate, went into the lunatic asylum for the second time.
Frank was born at the end of 1898 in Hunslet, Leeds. He was baptised in November 1899 between the 12th and 20th November at Christ Church, Upper Armley, Leeds and his death, aged 1, is recorded in the final quarter of the same year at Bramley, Leeds. In the parish register for the baptism, no date is entered but there is a word annotated to the side which could read ‘died’.
There may have been other short-lived Carvers in this general period, too, as there are deaths of infant Carvers in Leeds whose parentage I have not uncovered.
The three surviving children, Rose, Arthur and Nellie, arrived in Quebec, Canada, aboard the Ionian on 23rd June, 1906. At this time their father was dead but their mother, Kate, still had a year to go in the asylum before dying. I will now do a separate post for each of these children. Keep in mind that the usual ‘bar of confidence’ I employ, for better or for worse, has been lowered, partly as a necessity owing to:
• The habit of sisters marrying pairs of brothers and vice versa [how genealogically inconsiderate!].
• The habit of adding and changing forenames in life.
• The habit of having so few - but so well-used, forenames.
• The Catholic Church records being predominantly hand-written.
• Some of the source documents being written in French [sacre tonnerre!].
• Outrageously, though most agreeably, going off to Australia for 5 months in the middle of the research.
• Canadian Births, Marriages & Death records being very limited in scope and varying from province to province. In fact, Electoral Registers are far more recent – though, self-evidently inconclusive when trying to establish beyond doubt a relationship. There was also the habit of identifying married women solely by their husband’s name to come to terms with.
Cheers,
Neil [Easby].
-
The starting point for Rose was her 1978 death notice in a local newspaper, forwarded to me by St George’s Home. This named her children, and in the instance of daughters, their husbands. It also stated there were 26 grand-children and 34 great grand-children [hold the front page!].
Rose married Bernard Barney in 1916 in Cornwall, Ontario. From then, her family were based in Montreal, principally in LaSalle it would seem.
I’ll confess to a few head-scratching moments in trying keep up with Rose’s children. What you see is a best guess, in some instances. Some of the earlier baptism records I have seen. There is some evidence to suggest she might have married again – to another Barney, as I’m not sure what happened to Bernard.
1
William Arthur CARVER b: 17 Sep 1867 in Cockayne Hatley, BDF, d: 02 Oct 1902 in Leicester, LEI
+
Kate BURKE b: 1869 in Ireland, m: 09 Nov 1890 in Hunslet, WRY, d: 17 Jul 1907 in Menston, WRY
...2
Rose Ann CARVER b: Jan 1892 in Hunslet, WRY, d: 01 Oct 1978 in LaSalle, Montreal, QBC
+
Bernard Joseph BARNEY b: 12 Oct 1894 in Cornwall, ONT, m: 17 Oct 1916 in Cornwall, ONT
......3
Mary Olive Rose BARNEY b: 05 Jan 1917 in Cornwall, ONT, d: 2004
+
Robert James DICKSON b: 18 Sep 1913 in York, ONT, m: 26 Nov 1934 in Montreal, QBC
......3
Mary Hilda Florence BARNEY b: 29 Jan 1919 in Cornwall, ONT
+
Alex Reynolds DICKSON m: 28 Feb 1938 in Montreal, QBC
.........4
Dorothy Hilda Agnes DICKSON b: 12 Aug 1938 in Montreal, QBC
......3
June BARNEY b: 1920 in Cornwall, ONT
+
Fred AVIS
+
JACKSON
......3
Georgette Frances BARNEY b: 1926, d: 18 May 1993
+
Michael KRAWCHUK b: 1926, d: 1988
......3
Joseph Bernard William BARNEY b: 01 Jul 1930 in Montreal, QBC
......3
Bernard Joseph BARNEY b: 16 Aug 1932 in Montreal, QBC
......3
Mildred BARNEY
+
George BARRIE
......3
Robert BARNEY
+
Elizabeth [BARNEY]
-
Arthur joined-up at Valcartier Camp, outside Quebec City, in September 1916 and sailed for Europe with the Canadian Expeditionary Force. After a spell in England, he reached the front in France in March, 1917. He survived the hostilities although was mustard gassed. His discharge in 1919 back in Canada states that although his heart and lungs were normal, the gas exacerbated a previously existing eye condition.
Arthur married Alice Lee in 1920, going on to have two boys, Arthur Lloyd and Robert Vernon. Whereas his sister remained within the Catholic church, Arthur and his new wife on marriage were Presbyterian. The base for this strand of Carvers is most definitely St John, New Brunswick - going on to points further east in maritime Canada. ‘Lloyd’ went on to become a Reverend and died as recently as 2014. He is buried alongside his wife at Canning, Nova Scotia. His brother, Robert, died in Sarnia, Ontario in 1998. I think at the end of his life, Arthur went to live with Robert after his wife, Alice, died between 1953 and 1957, based on the evidence of ER returns.
On WW1 attestation papers, those Canadians enlisting had to give details of their parents. This establishes beyond doubt that Arthur knew about his father, stating his name and that he was born in Leeds, as indeed he himself was. As for his mother, Arthur left this section to be answered completely blank. On one other document I have seen for Arthur, he also left this section blank. His sister, Rose, however, did enter details for her mother [marriage document], where she states her name as what looks like ‘Kate Bowkes’. I have seen the 1890 church marriage entry for William & Kate and it is most definitely ‘Burke’.
For most of Arthur's life, when given the opportunity to identify his middle name, he chooses not to do so. It is then, somewhat of a relief, to see it restored on his Sarnia gravestone.
1
William Arthur CARVER b: 17 Sep 1867 in Cockayne Hatley, BDF, d: 02 Oct 1902 in Leicester, LEI
+
Kate BURKE b: 1869 in Ireland, m: 09 Nov 1890 in Hunslet, WRY, d: 17 Jul 1907 in Menston, WRY
2
Arthur William CARVER b: 01 Mar 1894 in Hunslet, WRY, d: 17 Feb 1979 in Sarnia, ONT
+
Alice LEE b: 1892 in Saint John, NB, m: 01 Oct 1920 in Saint John, NB
......3
Arthur Lloyd CARVER b: 13 Dec 1920 in Saint John, NB, d: 17 Feb 2014 in St Thomas, ONT
+
Helena Alice BORDEN b: 1925 in Canning, NS, m: 23 May 1947 in Saint John, NB
.........4
Fred CARVER
.........4
Elizabeth Ann CARVER
.........4
Michael CARVER
.........4
Bryan CARVER
.........4
James CARVER
......3
Robert Vernon Joseph CARVER b: 1923, d: 1998 in Sarnia, ONT
+
Mary Margaret Evangeline ARSENEAULT b: 1922 in Robertville, NB, m: 02 Mar 1946 in Saint John, NB, d: 04 Aug 2007 in Sarnia, ONT
.........4
Patrick Richard CARVER b: 17 Mar 1955 in Sarnia, ONT, d: 08 Nov 2011 in London, ONT
+
Mary Jo [CARVER] m: 13 Sep 1980 in Ontario, CAN
............5
Sean CARVER
............5
Martin CARVER
+
Andrea [CARVER]
............5
Patti-Jo CARVER
+
Michael
............5
Christine CARVER
.........4
David Peter CARVER b: 21 Mar 1959 in Sarnia, ONT, d: 20 Dec 2002 in Sarnia, ONT
.........4
Angela CARVER
+
Leonard VAUGHAN
............5
Jamie VAUGHAN
.........4
Robert CARVER
+
Joan [CARVER] m: 03 Sep 1971 in Ontario, CAN
.........4
Joseph CARVER
+
Jennette [CARVER]
.........4
Paul CARVER
+
Grace [CARVER]
.........4
Ronald CARVER
-
The youngest of the three, Nellie, I believe returned to England in November, 1914.
There are a couple of transatlantic crossings made by a Nellie Carver of the right age in 1909 and 1910. She appears to have been ‘a domestic’ and I believe this is what a lot of British Home girls were trained to do. Perhaps she was assisting other groups and/or grown-ups in their travels?
The Nellie Carver who arrives in England at the outbreak of the first world war, aged 18, states her last permanent home was in Canada and goes on to indicate her future permanent home was to be in England. This fits neatly for our 'domestic' Nellie. Additional weight is placed on this assertion by whom her brother, Arthur, nominated as ‘next-of-kin’ when joining-up in 1916. He nominated the soon-to-be married Rose Carver, of Windsor Hotel, Cornwall, Ontario - and not Nellie.
After 1914, the trail for Nellie for me goes cold – can anyone help? Ironically, there is a photograph surviving of Nellie alone when in Canada.
If Nellie died unmarried in the U.K., I can not find her. If she married in the U.K., there are several possible liaisons. If Nellie did remain/return to Canada, then the only lead I have is a reference to a Nellie Carver in the obituary of Esdras Pariseau in 1978, which states a 'Nellie Carver' as his wife. He died in Hull, Quebec. Feel free to pontificate or point out errors or impertinent presumptions made along the way.
Cheers,
Neil [Easby]
1
William Arthur CARVER b: 17 Sep 1867 in Cockayne Hatley, BDF, d: 02 Oct 1902 in Leicester, LEI
+
Kate BURKE b: 1869 in Ireland, m: 09 Nov 1890 in Hunslet, WRY, d: 17 Jul 1907 in Menston, WRY
2...Nellie CARVER b: Jun 1896 in Hunslet, WRY
2...Frank CARVER b: Oct 1898 in Leeds, WRY, d: Oct 1898 in Bramley, WRY
2...Gertrude CARVER b: Jan 1901 in Hunslet, WRY, d: Oct 1901 in Hunslet, WRY
-
Goodness you've been busy, Neil.
William Arthur is son of Jonah son of James and Sophia, is that right?
I've had a quick look for Nellie but can find neither a marriage, return to Canada or death. Can't see her as Carver on the 1939 register either. Very puzzling
Jan
-
Hi,
Yes - I have William Arthur Carver, b Cockayne Hatley, 1867, as the eldest child of Jonah Carver (1844-1889) & Eliza Arnold (1848-1913) with James Carver (1806-1881) & Sophia (1813-1878) as grandparents.
Neil [Easby]
PS: [Was Sophia's surname ever established? I seem to remember discussions on this.]
-
Yes, Sophia Breed
The marriage took place in Sutton
James Carver of Cockayne Hatley to Sophia Breed of this parish on 15th Oct 1831
A short rambling thread can be found here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=229051.0
Jan
-
Hi all,
I have a possible lead for one of my long-time not founds and hope somebody might be able to confirm it somehow or, at least, disabuse me of the notion.
It concerns MINNIE CARVER (my 1st cousin 2 times removed) who was born q3, 1886, in Wakefield. She was the daughter of GEORGE CARVER (1856-1926) & PHOEBE PRATT (1859-1912) and the last record I have of her is via the 1901c. I can not locate her on the 1911c.
My lead is that Minnie married a FRANCIS KENYON DOLLMAN at St Pancras, 1918. The Minnie Dollman who appears on the 1939c with Francis has a DoB of 27th July 1886 - spot on the right quarter for our Minnie methinks. They appear to have had a son, STANLEY H F DOLLMAN. Minnie died in June 1943 at St Pancras with a stated DoB of abt 1887.
Can anyone help verify 'our' Minnie Carver becomes this Minnie Dollman or already knows this?
Cheers.
Neil (Easby)
-
Hi Neil
I've had a quick look but nothing obvious popping up about Minnie (or Nellie who I had another look for) but I will have another more thorough burrow at some point.
Jan
-
Hello All,
On the case again.
I have a loose end in ELIZABETH CARVER bapt Dunton, Beds, 30 Mar 1746 [daughter of JOHN & MARY] and a possible lead.
Does 'the team' think/know the marriage of ELIZ CALVER to JOSEPH COLLOP, 18 Oct 1768, in Dunton, Beds is plausible for our Elizabeth? She would have been abt 21. If so, what happened next?
The Carvers of Dunton habitually seem to have been Calvers during these years.
Regards,
Neil.
-
Hello Neil
That marriage certainly looks likely. There is a burial for Elizabeth Collep age 82 in Dunton on 11 Mar 1827 which could well be her. Joseph Cullip 84 is buried in Dunton on 4 Jan 1823
Other burials in Dunton
Elizabeth Collip 28 Oct 1788
Mary Collip 15 Oct 1788
Sarah Collip 13 Oct 1773
George Collip 16 Dec 1799
Keziah Collip 64 19 Feb 1838
Family search has these Collip baptisms all with parents Joseph and Elizabeth
Kezia 18 May 1777
Mary 20 August 1769
Joseph 30 May 1773
George 26 August 1787
Sarah 21 June 1771
Jan
-
Hi, anybody still out there?
After several years of inactivity for various medical, technology and family problems, Lockdown finally concentrated my mind in recovering "lost" data from a variety of backups and the desire to write a coherent account of the Southill Carver descendants. One of the advantages of going through every bit of info from scratch is that I worked forward in time rather than backwards and several tidbits now fall into place.
One of the enigmas is John Carver b Hitchin 1762, apprenticed in Hitchin 1778 and died London 1836. His will mentions his wife, unnamed, and son John. Otherwise there are no records/clues as to who and when he married and when his son was born.
I have several possible London theories, but started looking back nearer to home. One possible is marriage to Elizabeth Merrington in Cockayne Hartley in 1781. Jan seems to have a theory about this, but is there proof that it can't be my John?
Chris
-
Hi Chris
Good to hear from you
I believe John who married Elizabeth Merrington in 1781 was baptised 1758 in Dunton son of John and Mary Willason/Williamson but have no proof. However a John and Elizabeth had children baptised Cockayne Hatley/Wrestlingworth 1781 to 1799 and a John Carver aged 68 is buried in Wrestlingworth in 1827 so the circumstantial evidence points in the right direction for him being the Dunton John.
Jan
-
Y'all,
Can't wait for the Southill mob account! Put me down for a copy.
I have notes for John Carver b Hitchin St Mary, 2 Dec 1762; but it is so long since I was last this way, it would take me a while to get my head round them. For what they are worth, you are welcome to them. It may even be, of course, that I sourced the information originally from you.
"Note: There are Wesleyan burials at Stepney for:
Thomas Carver - b. abt 1759; bur. 29 Nov 1829. (Green Street)
John Carver - b. abt 1763; bur. 1 Jan 1836.
Elizabeth Carver - b. abt 1765; bur 20 Jul 1825.
Buried at Globe Fields Burial Grounds (now Whitechapel)
Only Mary missing - suspect she either died young or married. Looks like family moved to Stepney.
Note: As at Nov 2015 can not find where DoB came from."
Cheers.
Neil (Easby)
-
Hi Jan,
It's interesting starting again with a different perspective. When working back in time you tend to accept someone else's assumptions about early birth dates (for nonconformists in my case). But starting at the earliest known ancestor and working forward and checking all "facts" again, you spot the anomalies. So here goes:
Thomas Carver married Mary Bromidge in 1720, but the births of 4 assumed children were after 1728.
Of these only 2 could reasonably be proven: Rebecca 1728 (burial of infant) and Rev John 1733 (obit). I now think Samuel was born 1830 (aged 14 at apprenticeship), but think Thomas would have been born a lot earlier because a) he married in 1746 and b) first born son normally named after father, so I'm guessing c1721/2.
t's very possible that others were born in the intervening eras, possibly 3 of them in 1722/3, 1724/5 and 1726/7. So what happened to them?
I've had a quick scan of all the postings to see if there were unexplained Carvers appearing in Wrestlingworth, but thought you might have some theories that could fit this pattern? Could this be the missing link? Also wonder where the name Rebecca comes from?
Over to you
Chris.
PS Are you the Jan B I had correspondence with back in 2007 with a onetel email?
-
HI, has anybody any knowledge of the Keysoe Carvers and where they fit in?
Has anybody seen the will of Samuel dated 1712 appointing his wife Elizabeth as executor?
Is this the Sam whose wife Martha died in 1702 and he remarried?
I'm wondering if not, could he be this Sam's father and also of Thomas of Turvey/Southill
Chris
-
Hi Chris
I've been going through my Carver info, I found a couple of parish records in Keysoe but don't know how they fit in. As far as I can tell my Carvers were in Sutton then Dunton at this time. I haven't found any unexplained Carvers in 1720s but will let you know if I come across any.
And yes I am the Jan B you mention, that email address is long defunct. Unfortunately I don't seem to have kept a record of our correspondence.
Jan
-
Hi Jan,
Do you have the full transcription of the Southill Church book?
I've just come across a note saying that Thomas was a trustee in 1714, way before his marriage and settlement.
Thanks
Chris
-
Sorry I haven't Chris. Maybe David (Bedfordshireboy) has a copy, although I haven't seen him on this thread for some years (no particular reason for him to be here as he doesn't have Carver relatives)
Jan
-
Thanks Jan, I’ve been in touch with him off firing and he’s confirmed that there wasn’t anything before 1719
Chris
-
In reference to “Carver Ramblings” on rootschat, and Ben Carver, transported to Australia 1792; I was researching the Stormont family and John Leifchild when I came across the following mention of Benjamin Carver:
...John Leifchild, His Public Ministry, Private Usefulness, and Personal Characteristics by John R. Leifchild. Copyright © 2017 by HardPress
....Another Edition is published by Jackson, Walford, and Hodder. Kindle Edition. And titled - John Leifchild D.D.. Kindle Edition.
- John Roby Leifchild tells us his grandfather had known and spoken of Ben Carver and refers to him in the following quotation from these works.
“When I recently visited Barnet by the Great Northern Railway, and saw every acre of ground cultivated, and every plot of building sites occupied, to the exclusion of all waste and solitary places, it seemed strange to me, that highwaymen were the terror of travellers, even within my father's recollection.
He narrated the capture of one whom he had known as a fine young man, and as once respectable, to the following effect:— Carver, for that was his name, had unhappily been induced to gamble; and in order to find money for his young wife and children he, in an evil hour, dared to take to the road. His first attempt was also his last.
A mile or two out of Barnet he suddenly stopped and accosted two ladies in a travelling equipage. "Ladies," said he, "I need, and must have, your money. Do not be alarmed, 1 shall not injure a hair of your heads. Only give me your purses, and your watches, and your jewels." These the ladies immediately surrendered; but so unhardened was the robber, that he returned the watches, and respectfully inclining to the ladies, bade the coachman drive on.
Confused as Carver was in this his first attack, he foolishly rode on towards Barnet,—the very direction in which the carriage he had stopped was proceeding,—and in so doing passed another carriage, containing some relatives of the plundered ladies. Intelligence was soon conveyed from carriage to carriage, and the driver of the foremost arranged to take out one of the carriage horses and ride at full speed after Carver, whom he soon approached, and then never lost sight of him until he reached the town; upon entering which he raised the cry, "Stop thief!" Instantly a crowd scrambled after Carver, who to escape rode up a side street, which, however, proved to be no thoroughfare.
He was soon taken, and it so happened that my grandfather was then chief constable, so that my father had an opportunity of seeing Carver brought in. The dejected look of the captive, his exclamations of grief for his family, the trial before the local justice, the committal, and his subsequent transportation, were all en graven on my father's memory, and reproduced in the winter evenings of the winter of his life.”
This report suggests Benjamin already had a wife and child, possibly Sarah Dibbs, who accompanied him on The Royal Admiral and maybe the child was the mysterious Peace or Pierce, who is with him in Australia in later years.
I have read Carver Ramblings over the past decade and wonder if others have further information of the Carver linage.
Regards Paul
-
Hi Paul
Welcome to Rootschat :D
Thanks for your posting about Ben Carver - I can't remember off hand who has Ben in their tree but hopefully they will see your post and reply.
Do you have Carvers in your tree?
Jan
-
Hi Paul and Jan
Ben was an indirect ancestor of mine and have spent a lot of time researching him along with Bev, who is a direct ancestor down under. I’ll make sure she sees this as it is new info for us.
Certainly an interesting take on Sarah Dobbs and Peace. Are the references easily available?
Regards
Chris
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Hi all
I’ve finally had a DNA test through Ancestry. It hasn’t come up with any close matches, so wondered if anyone other Carvers on here had taken one?
Chris
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My Carver connection is through Ann, daughter of Benjamin Carver and Sarah Dibb(s); Ann was born in Australia in 1798, and traveled from Richmond, New South Wales in 1817 to Madras, India with her first husband Sgt. Robert Broadfoot on the strength of the 46th. Regiment of Foot. Ann travelled the breadth of India for 15 years, acting in support rolls with the Regiment and in domestic service to three husbands, all of whom, died before the family returned to Australa, via Cork, Ireland. Ann Carver Broadfoot Appelbe Marlow Paris Farrell gave birth to twelve children including Mary Anne Marlow, a direct ancestor in the female linage of my own family.
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Bev is having problems replying to posts, so she asked me to upload this photo of Ben's grandson also Benjamin b 1845. Does anybody else have photos of that generation for comparison?
She is also asking if Easby Carver is still on here and asks if he can reference a 1930s Australian Carver tree that he mentioned in a post on page 6 reply 47/1/1/10
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Thank you for posting the PDF image for Bev. I connect the image to Benjamin Ray Carver, born on 8 November 1845 in Australia to Rosanna Welch, age 28, and Benjamin Carver, age 40.
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Yes, thanks Chris.
The gentleman on the left is my great grandfather Robert Carver born Wrestlingworth 1855.
Re Neil (Easby) he hasn't been around since June last year but I imagine he will be back at some point , Bev could try sending him a personal message.
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Thanks Jan, I have sent him a personal message
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Hi all
I’ve finally had a DNA test through Ancestry. It hasn’t come up with any close matches, so wondered if anyone other Carvers on here had taken one?
Chris
Hi Chris I have only just found this site (or should I say my husband found it for me). I am in Australia and descended from Benjamin Carver's daughter Ann from her marriage to William Paris. I have done a DNA test but I think our connection is too far back to show up as a match as you are not in my list of matches and with recombination we may not have any DNA in common. Who would be our most recent common ancestor? Would be great to hear from you if you are still using this site.
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Thank you for posting the PDF image for Bev. I connect the image to Benjamin Ray Carver, born on 8 November 1845 in Australia to Rosanna Welch, age 28, and Benjamin Carver, age 40.
Hi Paul I have only just found this site (or should I say my husband found it for me). I am in Australia also and descended from Benjamin Carver's daughter Ann from her marriage to William Paris. Ann has quite the interesting tree. Which child of Benjamin's and Sarah's are you descended from?
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Good afternoon Trudy
Neither Chris nor Paul have been around since 2021, but hopefully they are still getting notification of replies and will pop back soon. Chris also has contact with Bev who is descended from Benjamin and lives in Australia.
Jan
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Good afternoon Trudy
Neither Chris nor Paul have been around since 2021, but hopefully they are still getting notification of replies and will pop back soon. Chris also has contact with Bev who is descended from Benjamin and lives in Australia.
Jan
Thank you Jan for letting me know. Are you also a Carver descendant? I am not sure how this site works :)
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Hello Trudy, welcome to the ramblings and my great great grandmother was Mary Anne Marler/Marlow, daughter of Ann Carver and the Drum Major Thomas Marler. Happy to share my research of the Paris family. Regards Paul
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Hello Trudy, welcome to the ramblings and my great great grandmother was Mary Anne Marler/Marlow, daughter of Ann Carver and the Drum Major Thomas Marler. Happy to share my research of the Paris family. Regards Paul
Hi Paul
That would be wonderful. I am also happy to share what I have as well. It took some time in me early years of research to discover that Ann had in fact been married three times before William Paris. I saw the name Thomas Marlowe in a copy of the Will but of course had no idea who that person was. What is the normal process for sharing - is it through here or via email?
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My email is :o :o :o :o Please send a note and we can exhange information, then post anything relevant to Carver Ramblings. Regards Paul
Mod comment:
Pse dont pop up your own email address!! You never know as to whom is watching!
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Hi Trudy
Yes I descend from the Wrestlingworth Bedfordshire Carvers and started both this and the previous Carver Ramblings thread. There is masses of information but it does take a lot of wading through!
I can't actually remember where Benjamin fits in, but don't think any connection has been established between him and my lot.
Jan
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Hi Y'all,
Yes - I am still around, albeit brought back here through my first RC notification received for some time.
If anyone wishes to ask a specific question of me, ask away - (any earlier ones submitted passed me by, alas)
I will shortly post a general summary of what my DNA testing has come with up (of the Ancestry.com variety).
Cheers,
Neil (Easby).
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Y'all,
Down the years, the DNA geographical depiction for me has oscillated wildly, it has to be said. This has been very evident overseas; less evident for the UK. One UK constant has been the absence of ‘Bedfordshire’ for my geographical coverage.
I expected ‘lots’ of ‘Bedfordshire’ to show.
Stubbornly, the UK hot-spot area depicted for me refuses to go further south than a line from Nottingham across to The Wash.
My non-Carver mother is from East Riding, Yorkshire and the DNA-profiling for this side of the family ‘works’, in that a cousin who joined the pool unbeknownst to me, was accurately ‘pinged’ for me by Ancestry.com
I had thought all this indicated a likely break somewhere in my Carver lineage which contradicted the paper-based one for me – until recently.
Recently, I have been ‘pinged’ by Ancestry.com for people on the Carver side of my family tree and this DNA-based line links me back to Samuel Carver (1850-1902), my Great-Grandfather.
So, ‘confused of Bedfordshire’, I might well be termed.
Regards,
Neil (Easby)
PS: fyi: I am UK-based, although I was born in the States. Until very recently, I was a dual UK-US citizen.