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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Herefordshire Lookup Requests => Herefordshire => England => Herefordshire Completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: wendy47 on Friday 05 September 08 14:01 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone
I am looking for the marriage of John Napper to an Elizabeth.
He was born in Bosbury 1789 & she was born either in Little Cowerne 1851 Census, Much Cowerne 1861 Census or Stoke Lacy 1871 Census in abt 1791
They both moved to Ledbury sometime before the 1821 & probably married there.
She is roughly the same age in the 1841 Census but is 8 years younger in the 1871 Census.
Eldest child I have is Mary Napper b about 1821 b Ledbury m Henry Thompson 1844 Ledbury
John's parents were John Knapper & Hannah Rawlins m 1785 Munsley
Any help how to progress with this branch of my family will be much appreciated.
Thank you
Wendy47
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Hi,
Maybe you have found this by now but i thought i'd have a look anyway and i can only see one marriage with the names you mentioned...
John Napper and Elizabeth Bruton..Stoke Lacey..27th July 1814..
There was a note included at the end of the information.. "+ Ullingswick" which means that one of them was from Ullingswick...on this particular disc they use = and + as shortened versions of male and female but,shame on me,i can't remember which way round it is!
Hope it was of some help anyway..Flo'
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Hi Flo
No I haven't any info at all so I'm so pleased to hear from you. It looks promising & I must delve some more now I have some idea where to look. Seems their ages could be right too.
Just checked on IGI and John Napper is under the name John Happer. No wonder I couldn't find it.
Thank you for replying
Regards
Wendy47
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hi,
i have only just joined rootschat and found your query RE: john Napper and Elizabeth Bruton, i too had been looking for this marriage for some while and only found it on the I.G.I about 2 weeks ago.
Their son John born 1825 Ledbury,is my gt.gt. grandfather. Are we related?
I have a couple of "brick" walls ! I have been unable to find a marriage for John Napper 1825 to Catherine Dugard, their 1st child Elizabeth was born c. 1873.
I am also so far unable to find a birth for Martha Napper Ward born c. 1870 b'ham.
on the 1871 census she is stated as niece to head and on the 1881 census she is daughter! also i believe that John is down as father on her marriage cert. although i have not seen this myself, another member of the family has.
I did find a marriage for Johns sister Elizabeth, to David Ward in Aston 1861, with the births of David 1867, Ada 1868 and Caroline 1870. but no Martha, unless Martha is actually Caroline as the year of birth is correct?!
Best regards
Annette (nettie57)
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Hi Annette
Welcome to Rootschat.
Yes we are related.
Your John Napper 1825 was the brother of my Eliza Napper b 1823 Ledbury who married Samuel Sturge in 1840 Ledbury.
I have just got back from a visit to Bromyard researching the {K}Nappers and have got a copy of a marriage of John Napper of Ullingswick to Elizabeth Bruton.
I also have a copy of the banns & marriage of Elizabeth Bruton's parents.
Until you have made 3 posts, we cannot send Personal Messages.
I will wait until we can send e-mails privately, as you can't post email addresses on here. I can send copies and everything I have managed to find out, which isn't much at present as the main records are in Worcester I believe.
I took photo's of the churches as well.
Hope to hear from you soon
Wendy ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Annette
I've just been having a look at your queries.
Not found much yet but I noticed my 2 X Gt Grandfather John Sturge is a nephew staying with John & Martha Napper at Withington in the 1861 Census.
RG9 Piece 1817 Folio 166 Page 17
In the 1851 Census he is a visitor and John & Martha are also there at John & Elizabeth Napper's in Ledbury.
HO107 Piece 1975 Folio 239 Page 20
This ties my family in with yours.
There are a lot of Martha's in the family and at 58, Martha is likely to be too old to be the mother of Martha aged 1 in the 1871 Census.
You mentioned Caroline but she is with David and Elizabeth Ward in the 1871 Census.
Martha Napper Ward could have been registered as Martha Napper and then Ward added as a surname later.
The Martha in later censuses is the correct age but it seems she is down as Napper and born in Herefordshire. The 1871 Census maybe an error on the part of the enumerator. Maybe she was John & Martha's Ward.
Clutching at straws here.
There is this birth, which covers Birmingham and she is about the right age as she would still be 1 in the 1871 Census.
Births Dec 1868
WARD Martha Aston 6d 344
I presume you have the following death which may be Martha
Deaths Jun 1873
Napper Martha 64 Ledbury 6a 284
Wendy ;D ;D
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Hi Annette
I have been checking births of David and Elizabeth Ward's children and there is a death
Deaths Dec 1874
WARD Caroline aged 4 Aston 6d 207
I couldn't see her with the family or with anyone else in 1881.
Wendy :)
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Hi Wendy
thanks for your reply, yes i have the death of Martha in 1873 Johns wife, john had a daughter Elizabeth in 1874 with Catherine dugard which was quick work!!!!
i missed the death of Caroline in Aston in 1874,
i did wonder if Martha was Catherine's daughter at first but she was not in the household in 1871 and i did a quick check to see if she was in the area but with no luck!
i did speak to an old member of the family before she died in 2006, who was the daughter of Catherine 1881,daughter of John and Catherine who told me that her mother referred to Martha as a sort of half sister, but she didn't know much except that she was from B'ham! maybe i will have to get the birth cert. for the Martha ward born in Aston in 1868 and see if thats the one!
as you said Martha would have been too old to have been the mother.
I also wondered if Martha was John and marthas "ward" rather than it being her surname but when i found the marriage of Elizabeth to David ward, felt there maybe some connection there.
i have been researching the nappers for a while now, with the help of a friend who is far more experienced than i,! but i am now trying to go it alone..but i am new to this form of communication, so you will have to bear with me till i get the hang of it..!
i would like a copy of the marriage of John and Elizabeth and her parents as i have not got anything about them at all yet. i have a far amount of info re; the nappers though, so if i have anything of interest to you i will gladly pass it on. when i have found out how to do this of course! :)
I have had contact from 2 others of the family both descended from John and Catherine with whom i have exchanged info, but this was done through my friend as i didn't have a computer at the time!! he has most of my tree stored on his at the moment!!
hope to here from you soon.
regards Annette.
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Hi Annette
I have just really started looking at the Nappers seriously although I had John Napper 1789 on Eliza's wedding certificate, which I got back in the 1980's. I was following the Sturge line as it was my maiden name. Then we had a break from Family History and started again when we retired about 3 years ago.
I did wonder if John & Catherine were married before Elizabeth's birth. As you say it was a quick turnaround.
As you can't find the marriage, have you looked later. One set of my great grandparents married after having 3 children and another over 10 years after the last of family was born. She was described as a Kept Mistress on most of the Censuses. Makes the research more interesting.
You have one more post to do and then I can send info via Personal mail. Some of the info was on this post anyway. It was given by other very helpful Rootschatters. I will certainly pass any info on. If you have an email address I can send the actual photos of the documents via an attachment.
Wendy ;D
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Hi
Do you have Catherine in the Census? Could this be her?
1851 Census for Diglis, St Peter's Worcester, Worcestershire
Sarah Dugard 40 Head Single Schoolmistress b Dodderhill, Worcestershire
Catherine Dugard 2 Dau b St John's Worcester
Sarah M Tyler 6 [looks like 5] Visitor b St Peter's Worcestershire
HO107 Piece 2042 Folio 802 Page 22
1861 Census for Cape Road, Harborne, Staffordshire b St John's Worcester
Sarah Dugard 50 Head b Dodderhill, Worcestershire
Catharine Dugard 12 Visitor b St John's Worcester
Class RG9 Piece 2125 Folio 134 Page 31
???
Deaths Jun 1866
Dugard Sarah 56 Aston 6d 188
Wendy ;D
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hi Wendy
yes i have checked for a few years ahead up to 1900 but so far no luck.!
yes this the right Catherine in 1851 Worcs and 1861 Aston , i have the death of Sarah her mother in 1866, but no positive entry for Catherine in 1871. then she reappears 1881 as john s wife!
i find it frustrating that as i am working i dont get as much free time as i would like doing my tree ! ::)
i started with the nappers and it grew as i am now doing both mothers and fathers at the same time.. but i jump between the two.. the nappers are the ones with the most "mysteries" though.. missing marriages etc.
have you any info re; Emily1878 and Sarah Jane 1875 napper in the Ledbury union workhouse in 1881? i think they maybe connected to Ellen Knapper daughter of Thomas Knapper woolhope in 1881, Ellen married a Joseph Fido in Dec. qtr 1882 but i cant quite link the 2 girls to her! :-\
not sure yet of the connection between the knappers and our nappers but i think there is one!
as i think part of the family kept the" K" in napper as john 1789 was a "knapper" originally! again not found the link yet! ::)
Annette :)
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Hi Annette
These are the two in the workhouse
Births Sep 1875
Napper Sarah Jane Ledbury 6a 460
Births Jun 1878
NAPPER Emily Ledbury 6a 489
There is an Ellen born in Aylton
Births Jun 1856
NAPPER Ellen Ledbury 6a 401
Thomas is b in Aylton not Coylton
1861 Census for Jacobs Leys, Aylton, Herefordshire
Thomas Mappes [Napper] 30 Head Ag Lab b Munsley
Mary Mappes 24 Wife b Aylton
Mary Ann Mappes 7 dau b Bosbury
Ellen Mappes 5 dau b Ledbury
Sarah Ann Mappes 3 Dau b Aylton
Jane Mappes 1 Dau b Aylton
RG9 Piece 1811 Folio 81 Page 9
1881 Census The Nurden, Woolhope, Herefordshire
Thomas Knapper 50 Head General Lab b Ledbury
Mary Knapper 46 Wife b Aylton
Ellen Knapper 27 Dau Unmarried b Ledbury
Thomas Knapper 15 Son b Aylton
Rose Knapper 9 Dau b Aylton
Albert Knapper 7 Son b Aylton
James Knapper 7 Grandson b Aylton
Sarah Knapper 2 Grandau b Woolhope
Alice Knapper 6 Months Grandau b Woolhope
Charles Knapper 11 Son b Aylton
RG11 Piece 2583 Folio 107 Page 8
I think Alice may be Ellen's dau too.
Births Sep 1880
NAPPER Alice Clara Ledbury 6a 473
Possible death
Deaths Jun 1889
Napper Alice aged 8 Ledbury 6a 271
1891 Census for Bosbury Suffield, Bosbury, Herefordshire
Joseph Fidel [Fidoe] 36 Head Ag Lab b Bosbury
Ellen Fidel 34 Wife b Woolhope
Sarah Napper 13 Illegitimate dau b Woolhope
Annie Fidel 11 Dau b Bosbury
William Fidel 6 Son b Bosbury
Jane Fidel 3 Dau b Bosbury
Lily Fidel 1 Dau b Woolhope
RG12 Piece 2051 Folio 11 Page 16
I can't find the birth of Annie. Could she be Alice ???
So the Sarah Jane in the workhouse in 1881 is not the dau of Ellen above.
But maybe this is Sarah dau of Ellen
1901 Census for Ledbury Union Workhouse, Ledbury
Sarah Napper 23 General Servant Domestic b Woolhope, Herefordshire
Alfred Napper 4 months b Ledbury
RG13 Piece 2471 Folio 95 Page 3
Possible for Thomas
1851 Census for Jugs Green Lane Ledbury
William Knapper 43 [62] Head Farm Labourer b Munsley
Jane Knapper 58 [50] Wife b Much Marcle
Thomas Knapper 21 Son Farm Labourer b Bosbury
Thomas Acre 32 Lodger Farm Labourer b Oxford
HO 107 Piece 1975 Folio 221 Page 13
1841 Census for Little Nelmes?, Ledbury
William Happer [Napper] 49 Born in county
Jane Happer 40 Born in county
Thomas Happer 11 Born in county
HO107 Piece 425 Book 3 Folio 8; Page 11
IGI Individual Record
THOMAS NAPPER
Christening: 06 JUN 1830 Bosbury, Hereford, England
Father: WILLIAM NAPPER Mother: JANE
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
C017242 1813 - 1861 0991970 Film NONE Sheet: 00
William is the right age and at the right place, Munsley, to be John Knapper's 1789 brother who is the son of John Knapper & Hannah Rawlins m 1785 Munsley.
Wendy :)
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hi Wendy
wow, you have been busy!!! ;D...
i did find Alice and i too think that she is Ellens, but does that mean that James in the 1881 age 7 is also Ellens?
i think the death of Alice is the same child as the age fits. as you say, the Sarah in the workhouse cant be ellens as in 1881 she has a daughter Sarah at woolhope on the same census. there are 2 Sarah Napper births, Sarah Napper b sept qtr 1878 and a Sarah Jane Napper b sept qtr 1875 and an Emily Napper b June qtr 1878. so the Sarah born 1878 must be Ellens .. as she is age 2 in 1881.?
so i wonder who the others belong to?
looking at the 1861 census for thomas i see that Ellen has 3 sisters so its possible they belong to 1 of them.
i also could not find a birth for Annie, if the death of Alice in 1889 is the same Alice, b 1880, she died 2 years before the 1891 census.! i haven't found another Alice napper birth as yet. but the age fits so its possible.
i thought there was a family connection between thomas knapper and John napper, that would make Thomas b 1830 and John Napper b 1825 cousins ? ???
the 1901 entry for a Sarah napper in the workhouse is a possible, i found a marriage for a Sarah Napper to a Samuel Trigg Dec qtr 1902 and found them on the 1911 but i just checked and there is no Alfred! but couldn't find a death for Alfred between1901 and 1911..so not sure..
will send you a private message with my e-mail, thanks for all the info, hope i will be able to pass some on to you in return. :D
Annette
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hi Wendy
i found a death for an Ellen Fido, age 40 Ledbury Sept qtr 1893, also an Ellen Fido death age 0 Ledbury Sept qtr 1893... could possibly be Ellen napper and maybe died in child birth.. couldn't find her on the 1901 census. i did find a Joseph Fido with a wife and children in wales cant remember where now though. not sure if i wrote it down?! ::), i have note pads and papers full of bits and bobs i have found, :-[
still will try and send you my e-mail now..!!
Annette