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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Lydart on Saturday 06 September 08 18:15 BST (UK)
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It MAY only be my ancestors, but I've been searching through the censuses for all the side-lines, not the direct ones ... ag. lab's all, to a man !
But I've also noticed that they all changed their occupations between the 1881 and the 1891, and seem to have moved up a little in the world. No longer ag. lab's by 1891, they were carters, farmers, bakers, coastguard, publican ... so what happened in the history of rural Dorset, Wiltshire, Hampshire, or England generally at that time, that gave them a boost ??
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I think it was due the mechanisation of farming. Farm workers who had happily stayed close to their roots following the same occupations as their fathers had to look further afield for work. Some did better for themselves than others.
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There was a general depression in agriculture due to many factors including increasing mechanisation.The older generation tended to migtrate to find farm work but this was not always available.With the Poor Laws and Workhouse to worry about they were forced to diversify.Obviously for some this was a positive thing but many were forced to take what was available.
If you look at the housing details through the various censuses you can see farms vanishing to be taken over by towns.Umfortunately for every small business you can find many households earning their keep factory work or heavy industry.
My own bunch of exclusively ag labs moved accross counties to become cotton workers then potters then eventually back to the land with the collapse of each industry.Only one branch became relatively successful in seting up a small brewing business but alas the war put paid to that.
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At the beginning of the 19th Century one in every three people occupied in Britain was in Agriculture, by the start of the 20th century it was one in every ten, and by the middle of the 20th Century it was one in every twenty.
Stan
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I hadn't thought of the mechanisation of farming ... good point ...
Nowadays we even have combines that don't need a man to drive them ... saw one on the TV the other day, remote controlled and using sat-nav technology to position it ... what would great grand-daddy think of that !
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Mine were all a labs up to that point, and then they all moved off to be other things. Mostly "general labourers".
It was when the industrial revolution was completely changing the face of the country. Read your Trollope and Mrs Gaskill and discover the horrors that the ag labs (and others) faced.
meles
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Its to their credit that they were able to take on other jobs ...
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Generally, the agricultural economy was in depression from the 1870s on, but some areas bucked the trend.Where we live on the Hampshire/Dorset border, there was a mini-boom in the dairy industry in the 1880-1900 period which seems to have altered the rural economy. I think it resulted from both improved rail transport and from a growing population in towns such as Bournemouth.
My folks managed to better themselves in that period by first entering into share-farming arrangements, then taking on dairy farms in their own right. This probably only occured in the more suitable valleys such as the Avon, Stour and Blackmore Vale but it seemed to have a marked impact on the local farming scene. The local estates built many new small dairy farms up and down the valley where we live in the 1890s to cash in on the boom by renting them out.
In the library, I came across a book written by the vicar in about 1896 and he mentions the changes- he complains that the more able young men had moved away to seek better employment when the depression worsened, but the dairy -boom allowed the less ambitious ones who were left to survive on a fairly poor level of farming (as he saw it! :) )
He also complained that smallholdings on the East Dorset Heaths were being bought up by middle-class folks who had moved out from Bournemouth thinking that they could run market gardens, only to find that the poor soil soon led to failure.
Fred :)
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Lydart
I'm glad you asked the question. It has made me realise I should look more carefully at the occupations of my ancestors and see when and why they changed. I have quite a few who moved from agriculture to trawler fishing in the 1850/60s, so I guess a similar change was taking place then.
Lizzie
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Its slowly sinking in that we should be looking at our ancestors in the time and context in which they lived ... we can see their occupations from the censuses, but we also need to know and appreciate what was happening around them ...
For e.g. Ive been reading up about the Speenhamland system ... new to me I'm ashamed to say ...
http://www.victorianweb.org/history/poorlaw/speen.html
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Good question..... ??? I often wondered about that. I had a Gt Grandfather who was an Ag Lab in the village of Clynnog N. Wales. All of a sudden between 1891 and 1901 he turned in in St Helens Lancs as Coal Miner. All that lovely countryside in Clynnog working outdoors, and then down a coal mine. Makes you think doesn't it. :(
Nessy
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I have a number of Ag. Labs who became general labourers and carters. Then to my surprise I came across a Lawyer, my....we had gone up in the world, only to find that it had been mistranscriber and he was a sawyer!!!
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The biggest change for my ancestors was the opening of the Lime Works (cement) in Harbury Warwickshire.
A direct ancestor gave up being an Ag Lab, moved his family over here (maybe 15 miles) and some of them worked at the actual Lime Works, while others were employed as Plate-layers for the GWR.
'twas big business in the area at the time, and while I missed it's heyday I was there at the very end when they pulled the chimneys down.
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In the Heathfield area of Sussex farmers were used to diversifying when times got tough. Between 1881 and 1891 one of those diversifications came into play, particular with the arrival of the railway line in previous decades - chicken cramming.
It was a lucrative business locally for a decade or two before thankfully dying out in the early 20th century. http://www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk/html/william_pilbeam.html
Kerry
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What an interesting thread! Thank you for asking the question, Lydart. I should have known the answer, because I read a lot of fiction classics such as Gaskell in the course of my studies when I was younger, but I'm ashamed to say that I hadn't related that knowledge to the family research that I began a couple of months ago. This thread is going to help me a lot in understanding my ancestors.
Linda
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On the subject of mechanisation, the 1880s "Agricultural notebook" shows the reduction in labour which resulted from the introduction of new machinery:
"Quantity of hay cut with the old sickle- 1/4 acre per day
with a scythe- 3/4 to 1 acre per day
with a mowing machine- 8 acres per day"
so a man on a 2 horse mower could cut 32 times the area compared to a mediaeval peasant or around 10 times as much as the scythe-men of the early 19th century.
Harvesting cereals was transformed by the introduction of the "Self-Binding reaper" which was perfected by McCormick in 1878 and introduced to England shortly afterwards. This allowed a man to harvest an acre an hour, as opposed to an acre a day when cutting by hand.
The notebook gives the following figures for threshing the corn, which had traditionally provided winter work for labourers:
"Ave quantity thrashed per day by hand- 5qrs
by horse machine-20-30qrs
by steam machine-60-100qrs."
Even though the steam machine needed several men to operate it, it was still a huge labour saver.
Fred :)
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Fred
There is no arguing with stats like that ---- sadly for our ancestors :-\
Kerry
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Thancs Fred ... its answered my query perfectly.
What is the booc you quoted ?
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The little book with the figures is an old pocketbook that was left behind by grandad, but I would guess it was given to him by his grandad as it gives facts and figures up to about 1882, when they were dairying around Sturminster Newton.
Sadly the cover is missing, but it has 500 pages of useful info. that would be of assistance to a Victorian farmer.It has sections on Labour, buildings, soils, animals, crops and so on with the figures you would need for running a farm.
When we were at college, we had a modern equivalent called "The Agricultural Notebook" which claimed that it had been in existence since 1883, so I wonder if that's what my old pocket book is.
Grandad also left a copy of "Day and Sons Everyday Farriery" with graphic Victorian engravings of animal diseases, but I don't look at that one before meals :P :)
Fred :)
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Thancs again Fred.
Do you thinc its this booc ?? (Sorry about lacc of a certain letter !)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/049m/
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The book in the ad looks like the 15th edition from 1968. They updated it for each edition with the latest farming knowledge so I'm not sure if it would be very useful for Victorian facts. I have a 1982 version from college which is excellent for modern(ish) stuff, but when I decided to get a new 20th edition in 2003, I was disappointed that they had removed most of the useful bits (which chemicals kill which weeds and which medicine treats which disease).I think the authors are conscious that their recommendations could lead to mis-use and don't want to held accountable.
I reckon it would be worth keeping an eye out for a pre-war edition from the days before tractors took over as there is lots of very useful info in there.
Fred :)
ps I hope the ceyboard gets well soon, then you'll be OC!
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See English Farming Past and Present
THE GREAT DEPRESSION AND RECOVERY, 1874-1914
http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010136ernle/010136ch18.htm
Stan
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Fred ... I've got a copy of that book !! Found one cheap on the internet ... 6th edition, 1897 !!
First thing ... its by a Primrose McConnell ... a woman ??
No ... the dedication inside says "To Archibald McConnell, a Scottish tenant-farmer, this note-book is affectionately dedicated, by his SON, the author"
Poor Primrose, going through life with what even in the late 1800's must have been a female name !
Secondly ... the information in it is delightful and very useful as you said. Amount of work expected in one day, wages paid, descriptions of vegetables and crops ...
Did you know, for e.g. that one woman 'cutting sets' of potatoes (i.e. cutting the seed potatoes so that each piece had so many eyes) was expected to be able to cut 8 to 10 cwt a day, and that 15,000 to 20,000 'sets' could be dibbled (planted) by two men in one day ...
A man was expected to be able to dig wth a spade an acre of land to a depth of 9 - 12 inches in 14 to 20 days ...
Phew, they knew how to work in those days !
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I'm glad the little book is of interest. I love looking through it because there is so much forgotten knowledge in there. It shows that they were just as business-like as modern farmers within the limits of their scientific knowledge.
The current edition is still called "Primrose McConnell's Agricultural Notebook." Maybe his father wanted him to "Grow up mean" like the Boy named Sue in the Johnny Cash song. :)
Fred
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Hey ... a Johnny Cash fan !!
Poor Primrose though ...
I'm entralled by the book ... 90% of my ancestors had to work like that ... it certainly fleshes out their lives
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Hello Fred
Many thanks for your so interesting explanations - much appreciated
I am wondering if Primrose, was in fact a family name - as I have been researching a family of this name recently - perhaps he used it as the book author for impact - A man called Primrose will be noticed!
Trish
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See English Farming Past and Present
THE GREAT DEPRESSION AND RECOVERY, 1874-1914
http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010136ernle/010136ch18.htm
Stan
Interesting link, thank you - more information to add to the files of information :D
Kerry
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You have of course now set us all off on a Primrose gathering hunt!
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Family name or no, certainly a given name, I must correct my previous comment.
1901 Scotland Dunoon, Argyll - Newfield Low Flat Victoria Crescent
Primrose McConnell 53 Head Male born Glasgow Lanarkshire Living on own means
Robert McConnell 58 brother born Glasgow Retired Iron Garden Naks(?)
Rebecca McConnell 61 sister born Glasgow Living on own means
Trish
(might, of course, be a completely different family)
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Thanc goodness Rebecca is a female !
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Could there have been TWO Primrose McConnells? ??? The latest edition has a short biography which tells us the following;
Born Lesnessock Fm, Ochiltree, Ayrshire, 11th April, 1856. Son & Grandson of tenant farmers.
1870s, studied at Uni. of Edinburgh.Passed diploma in 1878, BSc (Ag)in 1886
Rented 600 acres at Ongar Park Hall Fm near Epping,Essex. The arable depression (cheap grain from America as per Stan's article) forced him to grass a big area down for livestock, including 60 dairy cattle. He had to move in 1905 "For the very good reason that I was losing more money than I could afford!"He also had a dispute with the landlords over the improvements he had made.
Next he farmed 500 acres at North Wycke, Southminster, Essex with 80 cows, 9 work horses, a pony three dogs and 2 tomcats as well as some chickens. He lectured on farming, travelled widely and wrote textbooks before his death in 1931. Of his sons Archibald and Primrose, the latter was killed in the final days of the Great War.
Fred :)
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I'm glad you mentioned that Fred - cause I think I found my listed family in 1861 and father wasn't Archibald. Then I checked 1841 and there were 25 men named Primrose - quite a common name :)
Trish
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Good gracious !
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Ditto Lydart :o :o :o
Kerry
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But could he have "borrowed" the name - census is Thomas?
1861 Ayrshire Ochiltree Address: Lesnessock
Archibald McConnell 38 head farmer of 250 acres emp 5 men 5 women 28? born Daily Ayrshire
Agnes McConnell 29 wife farmers wife born Wigtownshire
Thomas McConnell 4 son born Ochiltree
Elisabeth McConnell 2 dau born Ochiltree
John Murdock 9 nephew scholar born Daily Ayrshire
John Fergusson 23 serv ploughman born Monkton Ayrshire
William McGeachie 17 serv ploughman born Maybole Ayrshire
Ann McGill 23 serv dairymaid born Manchester
Margaret Morland 15 serv dom servant born ireland
BUT on the IGI we have
PRIMROSE MCCONNELL Male Birth: 11 APR 1856 Ochiltree, Ayr Father: ARCHIBALD MCCONNELL Mother: AGNES MILROY
ELISABETH MCCONNELL Female Birth: 16 JAN 1859 Ochiltree, Ayr same parents
So I wonder who called him primrose and who completed the census? I shall be forced to check later years :)
Perhaps one should check the image, but hard to see anyone transcribing Primrose as Thomas!
Trish
I couldn't find him in 1871, but by 1881 he is a boarder Cambuslang, Lanark & is a Professor of Agriculture - name given is Plunrise - so assume he is now known as Primrose :)