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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: IgorStrav on Sunday 07 September 08 16:58 BST (UK)

Title: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: IgorStrav on Sunday 07 September 08 16:58 BST (UK)
Finally, this is a picture of Victoria Adelaide, my great grandmother in, I believe, 1908.

A little clean-up would be very much appreciated, if anyone has time, and could anyone comment on the costume.

Is it appropriate for 1908, and what about the necklace, which is a style I haven't seen before?  It seems to be a ribbon, with a tassel on each end?  Is this common, is it significant in any way?

thank you all, so much appreciated.
Title: Re: And another. Clean up, and comment on costume, please?
Post by: Niksmum on Monday 08 September 08 02:11 BST (UK)
Hi Igor

One from me

Irene
Title: Re: And another. Clean up, and comment on costume, please?
Post by: charles w on Monday 08 September 08 06:59 BST (UK)
And one from me.
Title: Re: And another. Clean up, and comment on costume, please?
Post by: little meg on Monday 08 September 08 08:04 BST (UK)
leg of mutton sleeves, I would guess at 1895

Margaret
Title: Re: And another. Clean up, and comment on costume, please?
Post by: little meg on Monday 08 September 08 11:05 BST (UK)
here is a clean up from me.
Wish the whole pic was as clear as the plant in the foreground  ;D

Margaret
Title: Re: And another. Clean up, and comment on costume, please?
Post by: PaulaToo on Monday 08 September 08 11:15 BST (UK)
Just what I was thinking, Margaret.
Here's mine
Title: Re: And another. Clean up, and comment on costume, please?
Post by: Rabbit B on Monday 08 September 08 18:16 BST (UK)
Hi Everyone,

What an interesting buckle that is?  I cannot see if the black lines are part of the blouse or not!

Very odd but not a necklace, I cannot see this very well, but is she wearing a choker?   Or is that part of her blouse round her neck?  Bad eye day today? 

Hope I can see it better tomorrow.  I want to blow it up and get a better look at that, but  pushed for time at the moment.

Superb restores though and I love the coloured one, that is lovely!

Rabbit B  ;)
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: IgorStrav on Monday 08 September 08 20:13 BST (UK)
thank you! Irene, Charles, Margaret and Paula......it's a lovely plant, isn't it  >:(

Rabbit, I think the necklace ISN'T attached to the blouse, it's a ribbon worn round the neck (possibly black velvet?) and then there is a silver decoration near each end, and then a tassel.

At least that's what I THINK it is.  Very fascinated, can any of our experts tell me?

It hasn't descended down through the family, sad to say.

Irene, I must say your grandchild is just the most gorgeous thing I've ever seen  ;)
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: IgorStrav on Monday 08 September 08 20:19 BST (UK)
PS, Margaret, I don't think it can be as early as 1895 (despite the clothes) as the same lady is shown in my other thread "really cheeky, another one - restoration and confirmation of date, please", and that MUST be close to 1895 owing to the ages of the children.

It is dated on the back 1908, but that could be the date of when it was given to the recipient rather than the date of the photo itself.
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: jim1 on Monday 08 September 08 20:23 BST (UK)
Frederick Wiedhofft started off in 1896 at 338 New Cross Rd. Deptford.
Opened new premises in 1898 at 206 Holland Park Ave. in 1898.
If you just have the 1st. address 1896-8 if both 1898 on,but I doubt
this will be there, as China said mid 1890's.
jim
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: IgorStrav on Monday 08 September 08 20:31 BST (UK)
Hi Jim

The back of the picture says

Established 1879
Day & Electric Light Studios


F Wiedhofft
Art Photographer
338 New Cross Road
and at
106 Holland Park Avenue W
opposite Holland Park
358 Romford Road
two doors from gypsy lane
Forest Gate E
London

What do you think that means re date?

Here is the same lady in what I believe to be 1894/5 (because of the ages of the children) and don't you think she seems rather older in the original picture in this thread?  What does anyone else think?

Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: boggabarrett on Monday 08 September 08 22:42 BST (UK)
Here is my bit of a go at colouring, I have to agrre about wishing it was all as clear as the plant, couldn't get enough detail on the face,

Bogga
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: IgorStrav on Monday 08 September 08 22:45 BST (UK)
Ooh that's lovely, Bogga, thank you very much !  Like the colours  :)
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: little meg on Monday 08 September 08 23:29 BST (UK)
re: the tassle thingy around her neck, is it possible it is a strap that holds eye glasses  :-\
Probably not as there are no glasses in sight.  ::)

Not sure what to say re dates of both photos, are you certain it is the same lady?

I will have a look through my photo collection and see what I can find.

Margaret
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: Rabbit B on Monday 08 September 08 23:34 BST (UK)
Hi IgorStrav,

Have a look at this site, I think that the ribbon and silver ends were just for decoration.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/049r/

Hope I have got the right dates but this will give you some idea what to look for!  I hope. sorry that there are no pictures on the site I looked at.

Rabbit B  ;)
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: PaulaToo on Monday 08 September 08 23:41 BST (UK)
That could explain it, Rabbit, but I think it is symbolic of something...
Both sides are the same.
To me the bottom bit looks like an eagle/angel, wings up and standing on a globe. Bet there was writing on those top bits!
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: little meg on Tuesday 09 September 08 01:39 BST (UK)
found your other posting and noted you had this pic in it.
It is obviously taken at the same place as the woman in this thread.
You state that it was taken 15 years before his retirement, and have the date of 1910 for this photo, is this a definate date?

I believe that the two individual portraits are of the same couple taken in the group shot, but they are much younger in the group shot.

Margaret
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: little meg on Tuesday 09 September 08 01:45 BST (UK)
I will put the two together so we don't have to flick back and forth  ;D

Margaret
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: little meg on Tuesday 09 September 08 01:57 BST (UK)
and these
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: forthefamily on Tuesday 09 September 08 02:03 BST (UK)
Same chair Margaret...and could be the same plant but in the second picture it has flowered. I really need new glasses  ;D

The first thing I thought about for the strap around her neck was that it was for glasses....but I'm wondering if it isn't some kind of "award"...I can't think of the word. When you are in a Society or Organization you might be given a symbol of your status...maybe she's the Grand Pubab of some group....presentation of same a mementos occasion hence the picture.

mab...just throwing out ideas  ;D
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: chinakay on Tuesday 09 September 08 02:17 BST (UK)
Actually Jim I think it was Little Meg who suggested mid-90s...I would have thought a bit later as the light blouse/dark skirt combination didn't come into fashion until the early 1900s...so 1908 would be an appropriate date for this one, imo.

The thing around the neck...someone gave me a similar thing some time ago, and it was a bookmark. This one's a bit long though...

Cheers,
China
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: Rabbit B on Tuesday 09 September 08 09:37 BST (UK)
I will put the two together so we don't have to flick back and forth  ;D

Margaret

Hi Everyone,

They are certainly a handsome couple.  Is this and old Police Uniform IgorStav?  I was looking at the stripes round the sleeve.

I have had a close look also at that buckle and also the ribbon again with the silver tags.  The Buckle looks like a Nurses one to me and I wonder if the ribbon and the silver things on were some sort of badge of Office.

This could have been an official portrait too after a prize giving of some sort.

Rabbit B  ;)

PS Has anyone else spotted the valentine broach on the other lady at the neck?  This looks like diamonds and gold, mine is a ruby and gold how lovely!
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: PaulaToo on Tuesday 09 September 08 10:52 BST (UK)
'ang on, 'ang on.
same photographer, same chair, same curtain at the back, same bit of I'll bet it was 'window' at the other side...NOT the same plant...The one with the lady it fine and narrow leaves, spikes of flowers, the one with our policeman has flat crinkly strap leaves bit like like Christmas Cactus.
Photographer changed the plant, light feathery one for lady, firmer for gent. I like that.

I'd say, both taken same day and certainly same couple from group.

After fiddling and diddling with it, I think the bottom bits on the ribbon are eagles, but not sure now about the balls at the bottom being globes.

Of course it could be something to do with a regimental badge...a couple had exploding grenades that looked a bit like that...

I'm floundering.........
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: PaulaToo on Tuesday 09 September 08 13:05 BST (UK)
Tried to post this earlier but kept getting 'busy boards'
Best i can do for the ornaments on the ribbons
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: forthefamily on Tuesday 09 September 08 14:14 BST (UK)
I thought it was a Phoenix rising...... :-\ Didn't see it as being a eagle.

mab
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: PaulaToo on Tuesday 09 September 08 14:17 BST (UK)
It could very well be a Phoenix, good thinking, Mab
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 09 September 08 17:08 BST (UK)
To confirm the date China gave of 1908,this photographer was at the
Romford Rd. premises from 1905-65,took up new premises at 26 Junction Rd.
1909 which isn't listed on the card so the date 1905-9.
jim
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: IgorStrav on Tuesday 09 September 08 21:42 BST (UK)
Hello all, thank you so much for all your comments and restores and colourings, which are fantastic.  ;D

And thank you for pointing out the blooming obvious which is that the chairs and curtains match and the pictures were obviously taken at the same time!

These are my great grandfather and great grandmother, and are definitely the same people as in the earlier group I posted.  I know this definitely.

On the back of the individual man, who is indeed in police uniform, there is a handwritten inscription which says "John James Pay, on his retirement from the Metropolitan Police June 12th 1910 aftr 25 years service"

And on the back of the individual woman, it simply says "Victoria Adelaide Pay to her son Morris 1910".

So, if the pictures were taken at the same time, I think the date is firm at 1910 - I have other evidence of his date of retirement, and presumably the occasion would be important enough to have a photograph taken.  I know from my father (grandson of the people pictured) who was also the son of a policeman (the gormless looking boy at the front of the group photo), that there was a huge focus on the retirement date....................and the pension!!! ;)

Both John James and Victoria Adelaide were 45 years old in these pictures - ie 15 or so years older than the group photo with the children.  Victoria Adelaide died three years later.

I am fascinated by your comments about the necklace (or whatever it is), please have some more guesses!  Do you think the belt buckle is any more significant?

I don't know that Victoria Adelaide had any interests outside the family - she had 12 children, 3 of whom pre-deceased her - and had had her last child in January 1909, just 18 months ahead of this picture.  I think it's unlikely she was either a nurse or member of any organisation which would have given her an award.  Looking after the house - certainly not rich enough for servants - would have been enough.

Thank you all so much for your interest!

I only wish I still had the necklace.

Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: Rabbit B on Tuesday 09 September 08 22:15 BST (UK)
Hi IgorStrav,

I think that the buckle and necklace are insignia of some kind.  My first thought was the Nurse SRN buckle, Matrons used to have a fancier one, my Gran was a Matron. They also had different hats/caps!

The medical profession, have a snake coiled round a staff though, I started to look it all up today and got waylaid.
Will have another go tomorrow!

I found the uniform interesting because I have policemen on both sides of my family!  I was surprised about that, but at least it explains my interest in NHW  ;D

Rabbit B   ;)
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: PaulaToo on Tuesday 09 September 08 22:20 BST (UK)
Being a copper's missus and the mother of a good brood, she might have been in the Temperance Movement...

But I'm thinking I'm sure I've seen a brooch like the top one, with the dangly bits on the points, in one of the Pre-Raphaelite paintings...

So perhaps it's a bit of 'arts and craft movement' decoration and nothing else.
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: IgorStrav on Tuesday 09 September 08 22:29 BST (UK)
It's so hard to tell from a picture, but the tassels and brooches look like silver, don't they?  Quite something for a woman of this sort of social order.

Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: Rabbit B on Tuesday 09 September 08 22:41 BST (UK)
IgorStrav

You can bet that they will be silver, they didn't use any other metal in those days to my knowledge.

They are too solid looking to be filigree, but that is another possibility.

Rabbit B  ;D
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: forthefamily on Tuesday 09 September 08 23:30 BST (UK)
PaulaToo,

I've seen something like the "necklace" somewhere else as well. I went through all my fashion books looking for jewelry of that period but nothing yet. Then I did a search on women's groups  :-\

Would the police department give her something to commemorate her husbands retirement  ???

mab
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: IgorStrav on Tuesday 09 September 08 23:36 BST (UK)
Mab 

I don't think she would have had anything from the Metropolitan Police - my grandfather was also a policeman, and I don't recall anything being mentioned as being given to my gran at his retirement.

At Paula's suggestion, I have emailed the picture to the Textiles and Fashion department at the V&A to see if I can get any comments from them, and will keep you posted.

It might also be worthwhile asking other members of my family.....you never know, one or other of them might say "oh yes, that's the..."

Or even better show the necklace to me because they still have it! (don't think that's likely, though)

Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: forthefamily on Tuesday 09 September 08 23:41 BST (UK)
Can't wait  ;D

mab
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: Rabbit B on Wednesday 10 September 08 09:26 BST (UK)
PaulaToo,

I've seen something like the "necklace" somewhere else as well. I went through all my fashion books looking for jewelry of that period but nothing yet. Then I did a search on women's groups  :-\

Would the police department give her something to commemorate her husbands retirement  ???

mab

Morning All,

I thought of that Mab,  but I think that it has something to do with the belt!  No time now to look it up but I was going to google insignia.

Back later!

Rabbit B  ;D
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: PaulaToo on Wednesday 10 September 08 10:42 BST (UK)
Don't bother with the Temperance/Band of Hope. Rabbit.
Did them last night, they have an anchor.

Good place to start may be a Phoenix rising (or an eagle)
Since Mab suggested Phoenix I'm wondering if that's what it is.
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: Rabbit B on Wednesday 10 September 08 18:01 BST (UK)
Oh dear I cannot resist that the 'order of the Phoenix' might have come from there!

Got to bue a nurses bage which hospital has a phoenix as a badge.  One of the old ones

Rabbit B in a rush
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: IgorStrav on Wednesday 10 September 08 22:41 BST (UK)
Thank you all for your interest.  I haven't heard back from the V&A, and will let you know when I do.  In the meantime if anyone has any brilliant ideas, do please let me know!

 :)
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: IgorStrav on Thursday 18 September 08 21:44 BST (UK)
Hello all

I sent the picture off, on Paula's suggestion, to the V&A costume department, and this was the reply:



Thank you for re-sending the photograph. I can open it now, and can see that the
sitter is wearing a type of necklace called a sautoir. These were popular in the
Edwardian period, perhaps because they were a style favoured by Queen Alexandra.

It isn't possible to see much of the detail but yes, the pendants appear to be
silver, although they could be made out of seed pearls or another material. I
will also forward your email to my colleagues in the Metalwork department, who
will have more expertise on jewellery and may be able to add further
information.

I have never come across a piece of jewellery particularly connected to the
Police force, so I'm afraid I can't comment on that possibility. There is a
Metropolitan Police museum (see http://www.friendsofmethistory.co.uk/); you
could try contacting them to see if staff there could help.

I hope that these thoughts are useful.

Jenny Lister
Curator, Fashion and Textiles 1800-1914
Furniture, Textiles & Fashion
Victoria & Albert Museum
South Kensington
London
SW7 2RL


I've looked up sautoirs, but it does seem that they are necklaces which seem to be constructed as a very long string, which is connected towards the end, so there are two ends below a knot.  If you can understand what I mean.

The necklace my great grandmother is wearing seems just to be a ribbon, not joined together in a loop in any way.  So I'm still a little confused. 

I haven't tried the Metropolitan Police reference.

Does anyone else know anything about sautoirs?

thank you!
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: PaulaToo on Thursday 18 September 08 22:16 BST (UK)
Haven't a clue, Igor, I've never heard of them till now.
It looks like silver to me.

I did think it might be to do with the Band of Hope (Temperance) or Methodists, or some such. Suffragettes were yet to come, I think. It could be arts and crafty, but looks more like a symbol of office or a decoration for...something....

I'm putting my money on it being an award given to our friendly neighbourhood policeman on his retirement, and he has given it to the wife as a prezzie.

Good idea to try the cop shop. At least that would eliminate that idea...
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: IgorStrav on Thursday 18 September 08 22:35 BST (UK)
Unfortunately, the police site quoted by the V&A expert says that they are not answering specific research questions at the moment.  So no go on that one.

Does anyone else have any thoughts about where to go from here?

I've googled SAUTOIR but not got much back at present.

Perhaps I should have a look at some pictures of Queen Alexandra in the first decade of the 20th century.
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: forthefamily on Thursday 18 September 08 22:47 BST (UK)


Sautoir: (Soh-TWAH) A long rope style necklace popularized in the Edwardian era because Queen Alexandra often wore them. They were usually decorated with seed pearls and had a tassel as a pendant.

mab
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: PaulaToo on Thursday 18 September 08 22:52 BST (UK)
Oooooo, if that's what it is, my Mum had one of those....
Nothing like it.
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: forthefamily on Thursday 18 September 08 22:56 BST (UK)
My mum had one too...didn't they come back into fashions in the 1920's  ???

mab
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: Rabbit B on Friday 19 September 08 00:05 BST (UK)


Sautoir: (Soh-TWAH) A long rope style necklace popularized in the Edwardian era because Queen Alexandra often wore them. They were usually decorated with seed pearls and had a tassel as a pendant.

mab

This word seems to cover every long necklace there is Mab, I think this is Velvet Ribbon with silver whatever on the end! a badge of Office of some sort! I think!

Some sort of insignia perhaps!

Rabbit B  ;D
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: forthefamily on Friday 19 September 08 00:43 BST (UK)
I agree. I don't think she was wearing it as a piece of jewelery. I just wish I could remember where I have seem something like this before. It's really bugging me  :P

mab
Title: Re: Clean up, and comment on costume/necklace please?
Post by: Rabbit B on Friday 19 September 08 11:05 BST (UK)
We will just have to keep looking Mab!

It is bugging me as well, you are not alone!

Rabbit B  ;)