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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Sutherland => Topic started by: carly on Tuesday 16 September 08 15:04 BST (UK)
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Looking for any one who has a Murdoch Mackenzie and Christian Gunn on their family tree. They were married in Kildonan in 1808 and came to Caithness around 1813/14. Can't find any siblings and when Murdoch died in 1860 unfortunately his parents weren't known. He always said in the census returns that he came from Kildonan but I wounder if it was Rossshire?
Is he someone's brother?
Thanks
Carly
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hi carly
where did murdoch die? have you got his death cert?
lindy-lou
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Hi Lindy-Lou
Murdoch died at Milton in the parish of Wick, county of Caithness. He died 1867 age approx. 93. He had a family of at least nine children.
Carly
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hi
had no luck trying to find murdoch & christian marriage on OPR's...that might have given some help to his father's name...will keep searching :)
lindy-lou
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Hi Lindy lou,
You will find them under Murdock Mckinzie in Kildonan 1.1.1808. Their first born I think was Alexander so I presume his father was Alexander but they were a family who didn't seem too keen to name their children in the usual order, just to confuse matters!
Carly
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hi carly
have sent you a PM
lindy-lou
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Carly,
We just had a run up to Kildonon and Helmsdale for a look around as I have McKenzie's there (( none McKenzie without the A) it is a lovely part of Scotland
I cannot find a Murdock in my tree
I have Alexander McKenzie m Ann Poulson
family
Flora b 4.10.1806
James b 21.10.1808
Alexander b 25.4.1811 d 15.2.1894
Roberta b 29.1.1816
could they have had a Murdock
Alexander m Janet McKay Gordon 10.1.1834
they had 11 children
Elizabeth
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Hi Elizabeth,
I think my Murdoch was born around 1770's so the family you have are maybe a bit later but who knows ? It is so difficult to work it out.
Thanks anyway,
Carly
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Carly
Have you had a look at Timespan Helmsdale
if you google it and have a look there is an archivist there she may can help you .She was a Poulson but we weren't sure if there was a relationship she is going to look into it as I left her all the copies I had taken with me
When were up there the owner of the B&b who is also the village postman said there's not many McKenzie's around there now
We went through Kildonon and there were just ruins there I would have loved to have stopped to have a look around but as it was raining and we needed to get on the road for Fraserburgh we didn't stop
We do intend to do it again another year
Elizabeth
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Elizabeth,
Thanks for that,
Carly
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Carly:
Any luck with finding more information about Murdoch and Christina? I'm interested because Murdoch is my GGG grandfather via Donald MacKenzie. My grandmother was Janet MacKenzie.
Like you, I have the date of birth in Kildonan, the marriage information, and Murdoch's death certificate.
I received information his father's name was John, but no corroborating data.
Regards,
Malcolm
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Hi Malcolm,
Great to hear from a Mackenzie after all this time. I haven't been able to go any further with Murdoch or even find any of his siblings, I'm sure he must have had some! I had thought his father might be Alexander as he seemed to call his first born son Alexander, assuming this was his first born.
I come down from Murdoch's daughter Janet Mackenzie who married William Allan. She was the baby of the family born in 1833 and it looks like her mother Christian died sometime after that and before 1841. I wonder if Murdoch originally came from Rosshire as Mackenzie is not a Sutherlandshire name. There was a rumour down through the family that they came from Rosshire but I have no proof of this at all. I wondered if he had been in a military campaign and was going through Kildonan for some reason. Haven't been able to find anything about the sons John or Murdoch. His daughter Christian married Benjamin Doull from Winless Caithness.
It is very frustrating not to know Murdoch's parents. I thought when he lived past 1855 it would be simple but what a disappointment to see the space blank!
If you want any of details I have can you send me your e-mail . I still live in Caithness.
Regards
Carole
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Carole:
Good to hear from you. I can't PM you yet, since I don't have enough posts on the forum. One more then, I'll send on my email address.
The information I got from a cousin is Murdoch's father's name is John (born in 1750) and his mother is Anne McGregor (born in 1753). However, I can't confirm this.
I have Achintoul, Kildonan as the birthplace for Murdoch, and Knockfin, Kildonan for Christina (Christian). I also have a birth date of 1774 for Christina, which can't be right since Janet was born in 1833.
Regards
Malcolm
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Carole:
The data I was able to find online is James MacKenzie of Keppoch bought Kildonan in 1729. It was sold by Alexander MacKenzie in 1775. So there is a MacKenzie presence in Sutherland.
The strath of Kildonan was decimated during the Clearances (1811 - 1831) and the population declined from 1,574 to 257.
Not sure why the MacKenzie's moved to Caithness. Hopefully, you have more of the family history.
Regards
Malcolm
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Not butting in but most of my McKenzie's from Kildonan emigrated to New Zealand
also some to Canada
have you looked for anyone there
As I said before at the start of this thread (I think)
I have Alexander McKenzie m Ann Polson
they have also got a son Alexander and a grandson so the McKenzie's must have been there for some time
5 out of the 11 children emigrated leaving only one son at home
with his sisters .Sorry I don't have a Murdoch McKenzie YET
Elizabeth
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Hello :) - I've just started researching the family and I'm from the William Allan / Janet Mackenzie line of the family, so that makes Murdoch my great, great, great grand father I think? (I'm 21) - we're in Inverness now. Without meaning to sound cheeky, could you send the information that you have so far? As this would be a massive help
Thanks a lot :)
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Hi,
I would be interested to know which Allan is your ancestor. I have a bit of info on Murdoch and Christian but not a lot.
Carly
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Jane Allan was my granny's granny :)
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Have sent you a pm
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Murdoch McKenzie was my great-great-great grandfather. I would love to share/trade information.
Murdoch's (b 1774) daughter Janet (b 1833) was the mother of Murdoch Makenzie Allan (b 1864 - my great grandfather) who came to Canada in 1888.
In a family tree created by Ethel Jack it is noted that Murdoch (b. 1864) was married to a Margaret McKenzie (no date information provided) and then remarried to Elizabeth Ramsay.
His daughter Lillian Elizabeth Allan (b 1895 to Elizabeth Ramsay) was my grandmother - she married Pierre Alexander Boudreau (b 1896) in Montreal in 1920.
Kirstin
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Hi Kirstin,
Will send you a pm.
Carly
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Welcome Hofhine68
Although I am a Mckenzie myself ( my maiden name at that )and my folks came from Helmsdale
May I welcome you to rootschat
Carly not sure but i think Hohine68 has to make another two posting to receive a PM 3 in all
Happy hunting
Elizabeth
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Welcome Hofhine68
Although I am a Mckenzie myself ( my maiden name at that )and my folks came from Helmsdale
May I welcome you to rootschat
Carly not sure but i think Hofhine68 has to make another two posting to receive a PM 3 in all
Happy hunting
Elizabeth
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Thanks for that, hope Hofehine 68 sees that message.
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Hi there - just saw the post that I need to post a few more times in order to get a PM - is that private message? Thank you!
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The notation on the back of a photograph I have indicates that the man second from the far right (at the controls) is Donald Allan.
I have three more photos of the same scene and I think they are all from Allan and Sons Threshing Company. I will share them. Maybe you can help me identify the people in the photos?
Kirstin
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It's very likely that "Kildonan" means different places in different contexts. One Kildonan is at the inland end of Little Loch Broom, and these days is an area of ruined cottages etc, barely visible on the slopes above the flats at the end of the loch near Dundonnell - see http://graveyardsofscotland.wordpress.com/2014/01/08/abandoned-graves-kildonan-little-loch-broom
This Kildonan is definitely Mackenzie territory. Two useful resources are (1) The book JR Baldwin (ed.) Peoples and Settlement in North-West Ross; chapters on the Mackenzies of Dundonnell and the Mackenzies of Keppoch and Kildonan ; and (2) Stirnet tree 'Mackenzie03'.
Kildonan was in the hands of the families Baldwin describes as “Mackenzies of Keppoch and Kildonan” until 1775, “Mackenzies of Dundonnell” from 1775 until 1834, and Murdoch Mackenzie (formely of Ardross) from 1834 until (presumably) after 1840. According to the website I quoted, Mackenzie of Ardross owned the land and evicted the people of Kildonan in 1840.
(A) Until 1775
The Stirnet tree appears to relates to the Baldwin chapter “Mackenzies of Keppoch and Kildonan” (last paragraph), which mentions
- iii James Mackenzie of Keppoch (dying) – though the book claims James was married twice and gives Anne as the widow and mother of Simon, not Isabella
- b. Simon Mackenzie of Keppoch – the book says “Of Kildonan” (or Scoraig)
- d. Colin Mackenzie of Jamaica – who “borrowed money from Peter Mackenzie, a younger son of the Earl of Cromartie and therefore a distant relative, ‘to Outrigg him for Jamaica’. According to Mackenzie of Dundonnell it appeared ‘very plain that the young Man was much straitened for money for his voyage’ for his father ‘left no Subject or funds that ever I heard of’.
- (1) Alexander Mackenzie of Kildonan, son of Simon; Alexander, “who succeeded his father on the death of his elder brother James, sold his lands to Mackenzie of Dundonnell in 1775” [ref] 207 SRO E746/72/3; Dl 97/4 f363-64; RS38/13 ff.236-38; Macgill, W. Old Ross-shire and Scotland. 1909. nos. 236 & 805.
The book and the tree seem to disagree on James, the book (as you see) claiming him as an elder son of Simon, whereas as the tree shows James as the son of Simon’s brother George Mackenzie of Kildonan.
Even though this branch of the Mackenzies was apparently not particularly productive – many are annotated dsp = decesit sine prole = died without issue – the tree only goes effectively until the late 1700s, so it is unclear how prolific descendants have been.
(B) 1775 to 1834
The book covers Dundonnell until 1834, and states that the “Mackenzie of Dundonnell” who purchased Kildonan in 1775 was the second Kenneth, son of the “first of the family” , who appeared 'among his Neighbours as the full moon among the stars in a frosty night’. He had a large family, including 7 sons. The eldest, George, managed Dundonnell (including Kildonan) until his death in 1816, then being “the only resident landlord in the parish of Lochbroom”. George’s son Kenneth caused the downfall, with things degenerating into dispute and chaos by 1826-28 with the Dundonnell Atrocities, and finally the sale in 1834. (I have not found a Stirnet tree for this family.)
When an estate is inherited by one son, who has many siblings, it seems to me the possibility exists that those not inheriting, and choosing not to relocate or emigrate, would usually end up in straitened circumstances – tenant crofters scraping a meagre living. When we walked around the ruins of Kildonan, there were many rubble piles and low walls that must once have been houses, so the population was, I guess, substantial. Perhaps census records might tell us more? Elsewhere in this thread populations before and after were given, but those numbers seem to me large enough to refer to the Strath of Kildonan on the far side of Scotland near Helmsdale, where (I understand) Gunns, Mathesons, Mackays, Macbeths and Sutherlands were cleared 1813-1819.
So perhaps remnants of the earlier family were also still around in the early 1800s – I don’t know much about them after 1775. The intermarriages among Mackenzies of course complicate matters, and link these two families closely: in the tree, which as I said relates to the pre-1775 family, two daughters of “Kenneth Mackenzie of Dundonnell” married into the family (in roughly the mid 1700s) – Sibella and Isabella. Their respective fathers were either the ‘first of the family” or the “full moon”.
(C) 1834 to 1840
Presumably Murdoch Mackenzie of Ardross held the estate during and after this period.
(D) After eviction in 1840, I don't know where the crofter population from little Loch Broom was cleared to. We also don’t know how long they would live in this new area. Caithness was mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but does this refer to the Little Loch Broom Mackenzies?
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How interesting
I too have Mackay's and Sutherlands
and I am a McKenzie ???
Elizabeth
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http://www.ullapool.co.uk/clearances.html
has a lot of interesting information relevant to questions raised in my previous post. I'll paste part of it here, as it's very relevant to those interested in the Lochbroom Mackenzies.
An ancient Act of 1585 legally permitted the laird to evict tenants or sub-tenants provided he gave them 40 days notice. If they failed to comply he could bring in troops to evict them. By the end of the 18th Century several of the old Mackenzie family estates had to be sold for financial reasons. Throughout the 19th Century in Lochbroom as in other parts of the Highlands & Islands much distress and hardship was caused by the new breed of lairds clearing whole communities from fertile land that their families had occupied for many years to make way for sheep farmers from the south who could afford to pay high rent for the land.
James Hogg, the Ettrick Shepherd, recalled seeing crops left unharvested in the field of Strathnasealg, a lovely glen behind An Teallach, after it was cleared. (He toured these parts in the early 1800s). There was a population of 30 or 40 families in Strathnasealg and Glen Gruinard, before the Clearances. Hogg records how the Dundonnell laird, George Mackenzie of the 1st Mackenzie dynasty hesitated to clear people off his land although it would be to his financial advantage to do so. Ground Officers and factors showed no compassion to these poor destitute families (apart from the laird, minister and school master – if there was one – no-one had cash “in those days”). Theirs was a frugal existence, living on what they grew. If rent had to be paid it was paid “in kind”. For people living near the sea, fish was plentiful. No provision of food or shelter awaited evicted families when they found a safe place to settle.
In 1820 about 55 families were evicted from Inverlael and Braemore. Inverbroom and Achindrean were also cleared pre – 1850. Other evictions took place here and there including some in Coigach – one attempt to evict there was unsuccessful because the officers with the warrant were attacked and humiliated by a band of irate women. By 1836, Dundonnell Estate was sold by the trustees to Murdo Munro Mackenzie of Ardross. This family had come over from Australia (after the death of the old Geo. Mackenzie of the 1st MacKenzie dynasty, a son, Kenneth, took over the estate. He died young and even before his death the estate was burdened with debts and in the hands of trustees). Under this Mackenzie of Ardross there were heartless clearances from Kildonan circa. 1840 and Keppoch, Dundonnell. Twenty families (128p) were sent to settle on strips of poor rocky soil described in the Napier Report as mostly black moor and heather. They had to bed down in the heather in an exposed site until they could construct some sort of shelters for their families (there were many children) and animals, against the elements.
To bring the soil into a state suitable for growing corn, hay and potatoes, it was necessary for the families to make dangerous trips in open boats to the Summer Isles 10 miles away to cut boatloads of seaweed for fertiliser and shell sand to improve the peaty soil. They had a 50 yard stretch of beach to gather seaweed from, and as seaweed takes 3 years to grow they had no way of getting adequate supplies near home.
For the privilege of living on these barren 3-acre crofts, the laird demanded 9 days free labour in lieu of rent. Later this was extended to 21 days at times and in weather suitable to do the laird’s spring work, peat cutting and harvest work. To get to his place meant a 12-mile walk over a rocky mountain. For 40 years these people had to provide their own lunch “pieve”, When they went to do the lairds work. The Mackenzie of Ardross was also responsible for ousting a large number of families from Mungasdale. Some of them settled in Badlurach. He wanted to give the land to a daughter who was to marry a Mr. Cotton (Eatton)
The Leckmelm evictions were the last on the Scottish mainland. In 1880 an Aberdeen industrialist cleared about 100 people from their homes and fields. ... The Crofting Act 1886 gave crofters certain rights including security of tenure and compensation for the outgoing tenants for improvements e.g. buildings and reclamation of land.
Some members of evicted families got assisted passages to Canada, Australia and New Zealand, where as a rule, they prospered although the going was very hard at first. Often they would have to clear land, felling giant trees, the wife in the cabin meantime anxiously listening to see if the axe would start again.
There are well authenticated incidents connected with the harshness of the Clearances e.g. people seeing their houses on the shores of Gruinard Bay going up in flames as they walked home from church, or the Ground Officer coming to evict a teenage orphan girl and her brothers taking the potato pot boiling on the fire outside to the grass while he set fire to her house.
One of the most poignant tales in oral tradition tells of a man in Scionaiscaig (cleared 1810) who carried his father on his back from their burning home, to Culnacraig.
” This article was written by a local lady whose knowledge has been handed down through the generations” in “a guide to Ullapool”
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Murdo MacKenzie and Christina Gunn were the parents of Janet MacKenzie who married my g grandfather
William Allan 12/12/1856 in Watten. My information originally came from genology done by Ethel Jack but I have checked it out on ancestry.com. My neice and I are both researching and it is amazing! I would love to know more about all of them.
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Welcome to Rootschat it wont be long until someone comes to help you
I have been following this thread as I too am a McKenzie and my folks came from Loth and West Helmsdale
Elizabeth