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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Wednesday 17 September 08 13:47 BST (UK)
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Hi, Everyone,
Have for some time been trying to identify a John JOHNSON in the Cambridge area prior to the tailor's JOHNSON and Sons apparently being established in the town in 1802 (according to a newspaper report)
I've just come across two entries for individuals called John JOHNSON in a list of tradespersons for 1790-1797 in Cambridge; one is a cooper, the other is a "breeches maker".
Would this latter man have possibly been on his way to becoming a tailor, and could I be looking now at the person I've been searching for.
Was there any kind of an apprenticeship for the making of breeches...?
Very best wishes,
keith
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Hi Keith
The suit as we know it did not exist. Breeches, waistcoats and coats were made by different artisans. I would imagine that the coat makers were more skilled. I would also think that both could be employed by a single establishment.
Breeches would also be common wear for the working man in summer but longer trews in winter. Those would have been of lesser quality and of cloth made to stand up to hard wear.
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Hi again, Hackstaple!
And thanks very much for that little summary. Since I posted I've read that some breeches were made from moleskins. I also seem to remember reading in churchwardens' accounts somewhere for the late 18thC/early 19thC that people who caught and killed moles (and sparrows) were paid a small bounty per (small) head. There was probably quite a market for the moles, but I'm not sure about the poor sparrows, unless they were regarded as vermin, simply to be got rid of...
keith
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How interesting! My gg grandfather is decribed as a "tailor" in 1841 only 50 years on. When did the specialisms in various male garments get subsumed into one profession?
meles
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Hi Keith
This web-page has info on a Francis Place, b 1771, born in a debtors' prison, who progressed from leather breeches-maker to tailor in Charing Cross Road, London. No mention of any apprenticeships, unfortunately.
http://www.bl.uk/collections/place.html
Kind regards
Gaie
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Same Francis Place, apparently he was apprenticed to a leather breeches-maker:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CHplace.htm
Gaie
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I wonder if Keith's ancestor worked with leather and moleskin, whilst a tailor worked with cloth - the the difference in professions was not so much the garment made, so much as the material with which they worked?
meles
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Meles,
Did you mean that your ancestor too was described as "breeches maker" in about 1791...?
And Gaie, thanks very much for unearthing all that information (like the look of the lady in the hat too!).
Yes, it's a whole area I know next to nothing about, but has been conveniently brought up, as ever, by a question or two arising from poking about in our own genealogies...
keith
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No, Keith - I have nothing on him from his birth in 1813 until I find him in 1842 as a fully fledged tailor. I'm sure he made uniforms for the Norfolk Militia.
His son was a "journeyman tailor" before he became a tailor.
meles
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Hi Keith, Meles et al
Yes, she's lovely, isn't she! ;)!
Browsing the net, there seems to be an association between breeches-makers and glovers, possibly because of the leather link - kid gloves etc.
I suppose a maker of breeches for guns would be a breech-maker, not a breeches-maker?
Kind regards
Gaie
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During the war, when I was living on a farm in Wales, we were able to sell dried and part tanned moleskins to the Government at quite a good price each. I may misremember but I think it was One Shilling Three Pence each.
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I must try and see how much the mole and sparrow catcher got per head in Ickleton, Cambs 200 years ago, if I can find my scruffy notes in my hopelessly disorganised files.
Wasn't William Shakespeare's father a glover at one time...?
keith
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By the by, and I'm digressing from the main thrust of this thread, I see that on Easter Monday 1800 Abraham KNOTT the molecatcher received 10d for 5 moles. Later on someone else gets 12 shillings and 6 old pence for 75 moles, which is still exactly tuppence a mole.
Someone else gets £1 0s and 3 and a half pence for sparrows, though the quantity was not noted, so one can work out for oneself how much sparrows were worth a head then...
keith
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You'd be hard-pressed to catch a sparrow nowadays! :'(!
There seems to be some info on breeches makers here:
http://journals.cambridge.org/
It seems to be a subscription site, and the abstracts aren't displaying the tantalising snippets that the search engine hints at. Is there access at Cambridge libraries?
Kind regards
Gaie
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Gaie,
Yes, very frustrating when some websites are quite happy to share their information for free, and others want to charge for it.
This theme throws up all sorts of interesting questions. I wonder when the expression "bespoke" in relation to tailors first appeared. I imagine Samuel Johnson had a great influence on descriptions like this in the English language not long before John JOHNSON cut out and stitched his first pair of breeches.
Have found a 1767 apprenticeship entry on the excellent Cambs Family History Society site for a John JOHNSON of Over, which might tie in with the man I'm after, born either 1755 or 1756 there.
Trying to discover whether this individual was apprenticed to a breeches maker or not, TNA reference, but not quite sure how I'll be able to view the more precise details...
keith
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Hi Keith and Gaie !! :)
I found this ...... !! Edward Johnson was an apprentice in 1814 !!
Some of the trades followed by the Snitch's apprentices between 1750 and 1822 were: Glover, Butcher, Weaver, Tailor, Carpenter, Blacksmith, Bricklayer, Wheelwright, Cordwainer (shoemaker) Mat Maker, Stay Maker and Breech Maker. The average period of service was for seven years and the fees ranging from £5 to £15
Details from Apprentice Indentures
1814 Edward Johnson Joseph Keep, Girtford Tailor
http://www.snitchfamilyhistory.co.uk/john_snitch's_charity.htm
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... and a tailor, not a breeches maker.
Well done, Annie!
meles
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Hi Meles !
That Keith Sherwood has Johnsons all over the place ... believe me I know !! :D :D :D
This Edward could have been one of his ........ ::)
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Hi again, Annie,
Thanks very much for spreading the net for me...
As far as I know, Edward wasn't one of the JOHNSON family that I'm trying to track down, but all grist to the mill, nevertheless...
keith
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They had leather breeches maker's apprentices in Lancashire ........ :D :D :D
Working men in this period wore fustian (a mixture of linen [warp] and cotton [weft]) and light cottons. Jackets were mostly fustian. In 1739 the notorious highwayman Dick Turpin ordered a new fustian frock (jacket) and breeches for his execution at York Castle. Breeches and trousers were usually made from cotton corduroys and velveret. Joseph Coleman, a skilled labourer, possessed '4 cloth coats, value 20s (approx £54.37 at 1997 values); one velvet waistcoat value 3s (£8.16 at 1997 values); one nankeen waistcoat value 3s (£8.16 at 1997 values) 2 pairs fustian breeches value 3s (£8.16 at 1997 values); one pair of nankeen breeches value 3s (£8.16 at 1997 values)'
By 1785 types of cotton fabric generally available included corduroys, jeans, nankeens, erminetts, thicksets, corded tabby and jeanette. There were thirty varieties of cords, velveteens and veleveretts ranging from 2s (£5.44 at 1997 values) to 11s/6d (£31.78 at 1997 values) a yard (90cm). Cotton breeches replaced leather and buckskin from about 1785 as Frances Place, a leather breeches maker's apprentice, ruefully noted in his diary. After 1750 increasing numbers of men's shirts were manufactured from check, stripe and plain shirting materials and in 1784 calico shirts came back into fashion.
http://www.spinningtheweb.org.uk/m_display.php?irn=207&sub=clothing&theme=clothing&crumb=Utility%20wear
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Annie,
You really had to know your fabric/ material if you were in this kind of business in the late 18thC. Thanks for all that extra research!
keith
I wonder whether anyone helped themselves to Mr Turpin's newly made jacket and breeches after he'd disappeared into eternity...
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Just to put the sparrows amongst the moles, this chappy was a tailor and breeches maker:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/04bp/
Gaie
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How to make breeches, from VintageSewing 1940s - a specialist job apparently.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/04bq/
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Are you taking orders Gaie ?? :D :D
To answer the question of what happened to Dick Turpins new clothes ... I think this is it !! ::)
Convicted on two indictments, Turpin was sentenced to death. Pleas from his father to have the sentence commuted to transportation fell on deaf ears. Before his execution, Turpin bought himself a new outfit of fustian cloth and a pair of pumps. On the eve of his death, he hired five men for 10 shillings each to act as his mourners. He disposed of his belongings to friends and acquaintances, one of whom was a married woman in Lincolnshire.
http://www.britannia.com/BritHeritage/turpin.html
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Annie,
Perhaps we'd better instigate a scavenger hunt on Rootschat to try and track down who this mysterious Lincolnshire married woman was...
...and Gaie, I'll soon be picking up a needle and thread and giving this breeches thing a go!
It certainly appears from all this lovely input that an apprenticeship to be a breeches maker was a more than respectable and required skill to master.
keith
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Hi again, Everyone,
Got very lucky when I appeared at the CCRO yesterday afternoon when I discovered that the CFHS had extremely recently extracted and transcribed from TNA the Apprenticeships for Cambridgeshire between certain dates (forgot to note down what these were exactly, naughty me).
These would be examples of where money had simply changed hands between the family of the individual to be apprenticed and the man or woman whom he/she would serve the apprenticeship under. As opposed to the arrangements made by the Parish and which appear in details about the Poor Law dealings - these tended to be more of an agricultural nature.
So, a date of indenture of 22nd August 1767, with a further date of registration of 26th September 1767 for a John JOHNSON to a William BRICHENO of Over, a glover.
Now, before you all start laughing at the possibility of a man with a surname such as the glover above MIGHT have been involved in "breeches making", you're absolutely right...
In another entry he appears again as a "breeches maker", but with his name spelt as BICHENO. There was also another "breeches maker" in Over called Wm. BENTLEY at the same time.
The apprenticeship cost his family £12 12s (about £1200 in modern values, I believe), and was to be for 7 years.
I had a bit of a scan through the Over Parish Chest afterwards and saw mention of a Reuben BICHENO on 09-10-1766.
So, take your pick - I think I prefer Mr BRICHENO the Breeches maker (from Italy, originally...?)
Anyway, it all fits together quite excellently for identifying John JOHNSON and the link between Over and eventually Cambridge...
Very best wishes,
keith
N.B. Interesting that Mr B. is termed both a glover and a breeches maker depending on which apprenticeship, and surely suggests that he worked in leather or some kind of animal skin.
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My gr grandfather was in the census of 1891 as a teenager in London and described as an 'apprentice to breechmaker'. He served his time in Harrods apparantly military and horsemen would have been his customers. So still a fashionable trade even in late Victorian times. When he died in 1954, he was described as a 'journeyman tailor'
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Hi Annie !
Thats very cool .... Harrods !! :) of course they would have been suitable for horsemen !!
I had a relative who was a hat maker to the King ... and made hats for the Guards !!
Annie :)
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Keith ... came across these ....
Elsworth 20th May FARMS in CAMBRIDGESHIRE.
To be SOLD by AUCTION by Mr. SMITH. On Wednesday 7th June 1797 at 4 o'clock at the PLOUGH in Elsworth, in the county of Cambridge.
Lot 1. A Very Eligible FARM, part Freehold and part Copyhold, situate in the Lordship of ELSWORTH, in the county of Cambridge. Consisting of a good FARM-HOUSE, (lofty rooms and good cellars) good Farm-yard, well watered, three barns, large brick stable, two-stall board ditto granary and other suitable out-buildings; and 139A. lR. 21P. by admeasurement (be the same more or less) of very rich Pasture Ground, with fine thriving elm spinnies growing thereon; and very extensive common rights and folding thereto belonging in the occupation of Miss Ann Bricheno; together with a cottage in the tenure of Wm. Perrey.
Lot 2. A FARM-HOUSE, two barns, other out-buildings, and orchard adjoining; with common rights thereto belonging; in the tenure of Mr. John Murden, at Elsworth; together with six acres by admeasurement (be the same more or less) of very rich Arable Land.
Lot 3. A CLOSE of rich PASTURE LAND, called Roger's Close, containing by admeasurement (be the same more or less) 2A 2R 20P with a fine thriving spinney growing thereon; in the occupation of Mrs Ann Bricheno; together with a cottage thereto adjoining, in the tenure of Wm. Beck, at Elsworth aforesaid. There being upwards of a Thousand Acres of Commonable Land in the Lordship of Elsworth, superior advantages must derive to the purchasers of the above Estates, should an inclosure take place.
Elsworth is remarkably well situated for Cambridge, Huntingon, St. Ives, St. Neots, Potton, and Royston markets.
May be viewed by applying to the respective tenants; and full particulars known of Mr. W. BRICHENO, *Pertenhall, in the county of Bedford, or Mr. Smith, at Kimbolton.
*Pettenhall
http://www.elsworthvillage.org.uk/opus123.html
The manor of HOWE AND PERTENHALL alias COVINGTON FEE appears to have belonged to the Knights Templars. There is but slight documentary evidence relating to the tenure of the Templars in Pertenhall, but property in the parish retained the name of Templars' Lands down into the 19th century, (fn. 23) and there is still a moat that is pointed out as the site of their manor-house. The Knights Templars' manor of Pertenhall passed, with the bulk of the property of their order, to the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem, who had a preceptory in the neighbouring parish of Melchbourne. These latter appear to have made a temporary grant of the manor in the early part of the 14th century to John Merlyn, to whom Edward II granted rights of free warren in 1319. (fn. 24) The Prior of the Knights Hospitallers held a view of frankpledge in Pertenhall. (fn. 25) After the Dissolution no further mention of this manor occurs until the year 1660, when Richard Spicer alienated it to Simon Grey, (fn. 26) who retained it until 1690, when he conveyed it to Francis Brace (fn. 27) ; he sold it five years later to James Oliver. (fn. 28) The manor remained in the hands of the Oliver family for a considerable period, and it is probable that an heiress of that family married Simon Taylor, who, with his son Simon Oliver, suffered a recovery of the manor in 1772. (fn. 29) It was purchased from Simon Taylor in 1790 by a clergyman named Paget, (fn. 30) whose heirs held the manor in 1801. (fn. 31) It was purchased from them by William Bricheno, (fn. 32) who sold it to John King Martin in 1820. (fn. 33) His representatives still hold property in Pertenhall at the present day.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=42404
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Hi other Annie,
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Sorry other Annie, seems to want to post message whenever I do an 'indent'. I was going to add that I would love to tease out the Harrods connections as I suspect he was orphaned at this stage and may have been sponsered by workhouse system. Someday I will track down a record to back up my hunch.
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Hi again Annie and Annie,
All very interesting! And it looks as though you've definitely nailed down the correct family spelling - Mr BRICHENO the breeches maker it is then...
Not his only claim to fame, though, and perhaps I'll have a bit of a poke about with his ancestry.
keith
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Just noticed today when looking on the modern map for Over that there is a "Glover Street". Makes me wonder whether this small village had a reputation for its glove making...
keith
p.s. Hoping to make a visit there very shortly!
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There used to be a bounty paid for moles, rats or other animals classed as vermin. you used to see them hanging up near to some farms.
As for sparrows - I don't understand why people are saying they don't see them anymore, we have large numbers of them in our garden. But we grow the sort of plants that birds and butterflies enjoy, not these sanitised gardens where a blade of grass is not allowed to be above ground level, or perish the though seedheads on the plants.,
I leave seedheads on for the bullfinches, [had quite a few birds which we don't even recognise around here normally this summer.
quote author=Gaie link=topic=328203.msg2086441#msg2086441 date=1221665077]
You'd be hard-pressed to catch a sparrow nowadays! :'(!
There seems to be some info on breeches makers here:
http://journals.cambridge.org/
It seems to be a subscription site, and the abstracts aren't displaying the tantalising snippets that the search engine hints at. Is there access at Cambridge libraries?
Kind regards
Gaie
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Hi again, Everyone,
Just an update to say that I've finally nailed down John JOHNSON in his brother James's will of 1812 which I found on microfilm at the CCRO. There he is mentioned as ..."my brother John JOHNSON glover and breeches maker of Cambridge". I might well have had trouble trying to decipher the word "breeches" without all this prior knowledge!
So, he was the brave and pioneering one who made the move to Cambridge as an artisan/craftsman, while his three brothers continued to farm in the nearby villages of Over, Longstanton, Swavesey, Willingham and Dry Drayton. And his Cambridge branch of the JOHNSON family really flourished in the 19thC as a result...
Very many thanks for all your help on here,
keith
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I just caught up with this Keith ... sorry !
Thats good news about your John Johnson ! ... see you do come from Pioneering stock after all ... now then to show you really are from that family ... when are you going to Godmanchester again ?? ::) ::) ::)
( I'm just kidding !! :D :D :D )
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Yes, Annie,
It IS good news...and I'm off to Over and Longstanton tomorrow afternoon to claim yeoman tenant's rights again after all these years - actually, a pie and a pint in one of Over's two pubs (Longstanton doesn't seem to have any left - but please correct me anyone with local knowledge) and then a stumble over a JOHNSON headstone or three in the churchyard there afterwards.
And I'm definitely giving Godmanchester a wide berth this time (in case Rootschatters are confused, this is a strictly in-joke about the place between me and Annie from a visit I made there on her behalf a few years ago...)
keith
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Just to let anyone (and particularly Annie!) know,
Had a good look round Over yesterday, and there was actually a lovely large old house in Glover Street called The Glovers House. Just wonder whether Mr BICHENO (and I have to say that all those of this family buried in the churchyard had their names spelt without the "R") had perhaps lived there.
I also found a very old but still legible 18thC headstone in the churchyard with the name of a William BICHENO on it, right up against the south door.
Must look into the origins of Glover Street.
There was a very nice pub in the village called The Exhibition, too. Very welcoming, with good food...
keith
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How cool is that Keith ?? :D
Glad you were able to have a mooch around ... you're so lucky .... it's not too far away !!
Glad the food was good at the pub .... don't suppose you were able to try anything else ?? 8)
I see pictures like these and it makes me yearn for a gentler time .........
http://www.overvillage.co.uk/historypicturegallery.htm
Annie :D
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Annie,
A pity they haven't said where exactly those photos were taken...
And yes, of course I had a quenching pint of Indian Pale Ale - very good too.
keith
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Hi again, Everyone,
It's funny how important finds come totally out of the blue - isn't that the Serendipity factor? - but today I was idly googling with the BICHENO name when I came across the following link to Over village:
http://www.overvillage.co.uk/noticeboard.htm
and there, near the bottom of the page, was a review of a book that has just been completed on the BICHENO family of Over by two ladies who are descended from the family...
I couldn't help phoning one of them up, ostensibly to buy a copy of the book, but as one thing often leads to another, I've arranged to go over to meet her later this week and to discuss all things JOHNSON and BICHENO. She's a delightful woman in her eighties, and I'm very excited about what family connections might be made.
The house called The Glover House, in Glover St. was in fact lived in by William BICHENO who apprenticed John JOHNSON way back in 1767. And the gravestone I found on my first visit to Over Churchyard near the South Porch of the church is indeed that of the 18thC glover and breeches maker.
Great news!
keith
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Keith Sherwood !! .... I've said it many times .... you always come up smelling of roses !! :o :o :o
You lucky duck !!
Don't forget to tell all the juicy news and gossip when you come home !! :D :D :D
Envious Annie :)
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Annie,
Certainly the weather for lucky ducks, but perhaps not the season for roses - mimosas more likely.
Does help to be on the doorstep, though. Not a million miles from Godmanchester, either...
keith
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What a great 'story' and so encouraging to all of us to keep plugging away at loose ends :)
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Yes, Annieoburns,
The cause is never lost, especially with the internet to help us now...
I was also mistaken about BICHENO (pronounced with the emphasis on the first syllable, apparently), being perhaps of Mediterranean origin.
As it says on the Over website, it probably stems from the lost place from the Domesday Book called there Byccenho or Birchenhoe, meaning land with beech trees on it by a river, on the borders of Northants and Bucks. The river there is a tributary of the River Great Ouse, which today forms the northern border of Over parish...
keith
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Hi again, both Annies,
Spent a very enjoyable 3 hours in Over yesterday with the lady who has co-authored the book about the BICHENO's. There's nothing quite like the detail you get when you listen to an elderly person's long-remembered stories of people and places, in many cases long gone. The book is incredibly well-reseached and would be a goldmine for anyone with connections to the family. Plus there is a very good general description of Over Parish. Also the explanation that because of the 1753 Hardwicke Marriage Act, the marriage such as the one that took place at Trinity College, Cambridge between John JOHNSON's parents William (of Longstanton) and Elizabeth (of Over)in 1749, could no longer happen, as where you were living at the time of your marriage affected where you could now marry.
Another piece of information was that John JOHNSON's (b. 1755) nephew James JOHNSON gave part of the land he farmed in Over so that it could become a burial ground in 1867 - I've now sent away for his will to see whether there is indeed mention of this there.
Plus she showed details of The Glovers House, and who had lived there and when, including of course William BICHENO (1723-1806), who is, I suppose, the person around whom this thread was started.
I felt very privileged yesterday afternoon, this kind of meeting doesn't happen very often in one's pursuit of family history...
Regards, keith
N.B The book has been published since 2003, by the way...
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Hi: a bit late getting in on this post, but:
moleskin is a type of cloth, generally used for breeches etc and still available for riding breeches and trousers. It is a very hard-wearing cloth and very resilient to thorns, brambles and such like, it was (and probably still is, as that is how I came across the name) much favoured by gamekeepers. It possibly got it's name from the fact that it has a furry feel to it, and probably was available only in black!!
The thought of catching enough moles to make some breeches does have a charm about it, though obviously not for the moles!! ;D
BumbleB
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Hi, BumbleB,
Never too late for interesting observations, though you're right that the humble mole gets a very poor deal always!
Further to my comments on my previous post, there was no mention of the burial ground in James JOHNSON's will - but lots of names of people he gave legacies to, so many more little connecting threads with his family and friends in the area. I also came across in the Over Chronicle (I think it was called) of a mention of an auction of the remains of his farming stock, including the huge amount of 100 loads of manure. Now there's a thought, and I wonder how much he got for that. Would have given those moles a bit of a headache if it had been dumped over their burrows all at one go. That was in 1866, so presumably he'd stopped the farming by then.
I also saw his gravestone in the cemetery he had given to the people of Over, a very hard-wearing headstone it was too, with an extremely clear, deep inscription; a dedication on it thanking him for this special gift too...
keith
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Hello, i'm about 2 years late joining this very interesting conversation ;) but i just thought i'd chime in to say that my ancestor Robert Monk b.1780 from St Giles, Oxford was a breeches maker too. He is listed on his 1827 army discharge papers as having that profession, after being in the army in India for 21 years. Whether he was a breeches maker for the whole 20 years, i don't know ... but there you go :)
His papers state that his reason for requesting to leave the army at age 47 was that he was "worn out!" ;)
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Hi, Celeste, and welcome to Rootschat!
Yes, this was a very productive thread, and I hope your ancestor hadn't worn his breeches out as well as his energies/spirits...
I even contacted Hugh Bicheno, the historian/author and got a very nice reply from him. It's a family name I've frequently since come across in Cambridge and the surrounding villages.
Where have those two years vanished to, meantime...?
Very best wishes, keith
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Something is puzzling me (not difficult these days) If the garments made by tailors e.g. suits etc. are of comparatively recent origin, why is the surname Taylor of ancient origin?Just found this thread, and have two interests in it, mother's relatives from the Cambridge area, father's ancestors glovers in Somerset.