RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: gallipolianzac on Tuesday 30 September 08 14:32 BST (UK)
-
The St. George family lived at the Ashorne Hill manor house and estate, near Leamington Spa from 1910 to 1915. Their second son H.A.B. St. George was killed in 1914 serving with the Life Guards. The family then moved to Coombe House, Kingston Hill in Surrey. Does anyone know anything about this house and the St. George family?
Jerry Murland
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_George_Baronets
He died at Ypres didn't he? As far as I am aware so did a couple of his close relatives. Obviously he was from the same line as the St George's above who at the time had emigrated to South Africa, where another two of them were killed during WW1. The current baronetcy above is from Ireland, but the line goes back to the village of Hatley St. George in Cambridgeshire where the family's ancient seat was. Hence the Hatley manor on St George's Terrace.
-
Interesting! Do you know any more about the others who died at Ypres? His brother Howard escaped to the USA and avoided the war. What I have so far is:
Robert St. George - gentleman b. Galway
James Richard Bligh St. George b. 1842 Galway - uncle?
Howard Bligh St. George b. 1857 married Evelyn Baker in 1891. She was daughter of the seriously minted George Fisher Baker the New York financier.
I have not made any link to the St. George baronecy yet.
Jerry
-
Jerry, I have been interested in Howard Avenel Bligh St. George since I saw a book about him in the bookshop at the In Flanders Field museum in the cloth hall Ypres, Belgium. It was his splendid name plus the photo on the front of the book which caught my attention. He was in his full ceremonial Life Guards Kit and was a rather priggish looking young man-haughty and with a very upturned nose. I didn`t buy the book on that occasion- some six years ago and on subsequent visits it has been unavailable,out of print. He died on 15th november 1914 and is buried in the Churchyard of Zillebeke Church with a few others, not a military cemetary. There is a stained glass window to his memory which we could not see the church being closed and we could not make out from the outside which it was,. Although you say you have not made any connection with the Baronetcy St. George the names Avenel and Bligh and even Howard appear through the generatons of the Athlone Baronetcy St. George. The Carrickfergus line is extinct according to the info I got from the internet. Whom do you mean when you say his brother H oward fled to America to escape the war? He was called H0ward. It has been difficult tracing him because he appears in records as Avenel St. George or St. George Avenel. as if Avenel was his surname and the Howard bit I`ve only found out this week after several year`s search. Hope this is useful to you.He was a second Lt. in The First Life Guards and Zillebeke is just S.E of Ypres near Gheluveldt where there was fierce fighting and also at Hooge here ther were heavy losses. I will endeavour to find exactly where he fell and if he was killed on the battlefield or if he died at a dressing station. It`s all very sad isn`t it Cheerio. Viktoria.
-
Hi Jerry !
Heres news of his death in NY Times November 26 1914 ... he was the grandson of a New York banker !
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C07EEDA1438E033A25755C2A9679D946596D6CF
Annie :)
-
Victoria
What was the name of the book? I have not heard of a book about him. I have all the details of where he fell thanks - its not the military bits I need, its his family detail that interests me. The cemetery where he is buried is an official CWGC War Cemetery, registered as an exension of the Zillebeke Churchyard. His brother - name escapes me at the moment - fled to America.
Jerry
-
Thanks Annie.
Jerry
-
Victoria
What was the name of the book? I have not heard of a book about him. I have all the details of where he fell thanks - its not the military bits I need, its his family detail that interests me. The cemetery where he is buried is an official CWGC War Cemetery, registered as an exension of the Zillebeke Churchyard. His brother - name escapes me at the moment - fled to America.
Jerry Sorry Jerry ,can`t remember but there is also a leaflet about him kept in Ypres town archives which is available to view but not actually touch!Would his brother be George St. George?Are you connected to the family in any way?I sent off to the 1st Life Guards for a copy of the book but what came was the "diary" of the L.G. not about him. I particularly wanted the photograph, it was so striking, he looked so haughty and quite magnificent with all the polished breastplate ,helmet which of course had the long horsehair "tassel",thigh high shiny boots and such a superior expression. I am so angry with myself for not getting the book. we will be visiting Ypres again someday and will look again for it . will also take details of the leaflet. Were they Baronets or a junior branch of the main family? Viktoria.
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_George_Baronets
He died at Ypres didn't he? As far as I am aware so did a couple of his close relatives. Obviously he was from the same line as the St George's above who at the time had emigrated to South Africa, where another two of them were killed during WW1. The current baronetcy above is from Ireland, but the line goes back to the village of Hatley St. George in Cambridgeshire where the family's ancient seat was. Hence the Hatley manor on St George's Terrace.
[/ quote] Hi, I was pleased to see some info regarding this young man whom I have been searching for since I saw a book about him in the museum bookshop at Ypres war museum "In Flanders Field"I unfortunately can not remember the title and I am kicking myself for not buying it at the time because it is unavailable now-or was the last time we went to Ypres. We have visited his grave at Zillebeke Churchyard and seen a leaflet about him kept in the town archives. So precious you may not touch it!We will be visiting Ypres again some day and hope to find it i s in print again. Any info will be much appreciated. H.A.B.st. G. was a magnificent figure in his full uniform- he looked so young and yet very haughty, quite distinctive features. Cheerio. Viktoria>
-
You can buy a picture of him on line here !! ;D
http://www.lulu.com/content/535311
Annie :)
-
Thank you very much, the problem is now that I don`t buy over the internet ,and I have tried emailing but without success. Is There an address I could write to and send a cheque?Did you know there was a book written about this young man? It is very difficult tracing him because of his many names and which are his Christian names and which his?title / surname .what is your interest in him, I would find it interesting to know. Viktoria.
-
Hi Viktoria and welcome to RootsChat :)
I have no interest in the St George family ... other than it looked like interesting research ... ( which all on RootsChat seem to get a "big kick " out of !! :D :D )
As for the Lulu site ... I'm not sure what to tell you ... except they are a very good resource for me and I have bought many photographs obituaries and newsclippings through the years from them !! :)
Annie :)
-
If there is still interest in this thread then I can help as 'Ave', or, 'Avenal' was my great uncle.
I will be able to give you the link to the St George Baronetcy as well.
I do not recall my other uncle "fleeing" to America he went on to be a Colonel in the Life Guards and Silverstick with a good war record - so no white feather required!
My grandmother did however go over to the US in late 1914 until 1915.
I have recently come across pictures of both Cornet St George 1/LG and the houses you mention.
-
An interesting reply but I doubt we have the same individual. Howard Avenel Bligh St George's brother was called George. George St George went to the USA in June 1913 to work with JP Morgan ( His address is given as Leamington Spa which is where the family were living at the time) and did not return until 1926.(passenger lists confirm both instances of travel) He was then described as a USA national. There is absolutely no record of him having served in the Life Guards, or for that matter in any of HM Armed forces during the Great War. So quite how he was promoted to colonel and 'had a good war record' remains a mystery! I stand by my earlier statement that he remained in the USA for the duration of the war at the request of his mother who could not bear the thought of another of her boys being killed.
-
I might add that my book on the men buried at the Zillebeke Churchyard Cemetery near Ypres is called 'Aristocrats Go To War' and can be bought online at Amazon and other booksellers. A very good photograph of Howard St George and the exact circumstances of his death are chronicled therein. Zillebeke Churchyard Cemetery is a military cemetery and the young man in question lies with a number of other officers and men who were killed during the first battle of Ypres.
-
It is very difficult to sort out who is who(m)in this family-- there are so many of the same name and the American newspaper excerpts reporting his death were not accurate it seems. They got mixed up too!
Some of his family were resident in the U.S by the time he was killed(Winter 1914)
When we visited Zillebeke Church we saw his grave among some more military burials but mainly it is a graveyard for the local population and not a dedicated military cemetery.I don`t imgine that anyone would have anticipated the vast size most military cemeteries would ultimately be ,so early in the war.(Winter 1914)
We were disappointed to miss seeing the stained glass window in the church, in his memory placed by his mother. The Church was closed, and there was no reply at the priest`s house.
I still kick myself fr not buying the book which first roused my interest in this young man when it was on sale in the souvenir shop in Ypres Cloth Hall museun shop. I was allowed to see( but not touch) a slim pamphlet held in Ypres Town archives, about him..
I have a photograph, in his splendid uniform, looking very haughty, and so young.My family got it for me as a little present some years ago when this topic first came up and RootsChatters helped me a lot. Again thanks for that. Cheerio Viktoria.
I`m a dinosaur---- I want the old RootsChat back!!!
-
Zillebeke Churchyard Cemetery IS a dedicated Military Cemetery. the CWGC section is on the left and contains the 36 Burials. Many CWGC cemeteries are part of communal cemeteries. Check on the CWGC website. George was definitely the Brother of Avenel Bligh St George.
-
I think we are at cross purposes , I meant that the whole graveyard is not of military burials only, there are graves of local people too. Dedicated to me meant no other burials but military ones.
Perhaps you meant the military burials are under the auspices of the C.W.G.C.,which is correct of course.
I was not disputing your knowledge which I know to be extensive. It`s just a question of phraseology and our different perceptions of what we each mean.
His mum was an unusual person wasn`t she? Very tall and having an affair with someone other than his father. Cheerio and A Happy New Year to you. Viktoria.
-
Sorry Viktoria - yes you are correct, the cemetery is within the village communal cemetery. Yes Evelyn St George was having an affair with another man, the painter William Orphen who later became Sir William Orphenand a famous war Artist. The affair was terminated by her father who obviously threatened to cut her out of his will if it did not stop. all this and plenty more in my book 'Aristocrat's Go To War'.
Jerry
-
I should like to have a copy of your book, can you let me know how I
can obtain one?
My family are always stuck for ideas for presents and this year one little present was "Trench Talk"a
book about the expressions-- many which have entered into general usage-- which originated in the WW1 trenches. They got me H.A.B.St George`s photo as a present some time back. So you see what kind of interests I have.
Thanks in advance and kind regards. Viktoria.
-
Viktoria, try Amazon UK or Pen and Sword or even WH Smith websites
Happy new year
Jerry.
-
Thanks very much Jerry, I`ll mention it all to my sons who like to get me things like that.My second son is interested in the same things as me, his Christmas present this year was a replica ,to scale, of an American Civil War cannon . He was in the states for work some time recently and saw them in a specialist shop.He was impressed by these lovely detailed models and so when I asked what he would like he ordered it and it came very quickly.He also bought bought some shot and bullets from Gettysburgh when he was there.
I also got him---- tongue in cheek ---a blow-up Spitfire. That is hanging in his conservatory now.
Thanks again. I`m remembering Julian Grenfell, who " adored war " and thought it like a picnic with rather more purpose. So many of his relatives were also killed ,that family must have suffered so much and yet it is as if their boys were bred to fight. Shocking to us in this day and age. I am grateful my sons did not have to go to war.My hubby was only in the Pay Corps too!! Cheerio and thanks again. Viktoria.
-
Hello,
Avenal was my Great Uncle. There are a few things that really need to be put right. In particular there is mention of confusion over brothers. One of Avenal's brothers became Colonel of the life Guards, and another was in America. The word "fled" seems to have been added with no evidence of what actually happened. In point of fact Goga (the one in the states) was ordered by his family to go to the States and was there I am pretty sure at the outbreak. He was utterly devastated by the loss of his brother Avenal and this I know for sure having spoken to his grandson recently. I really feel it is wrong to use words like "fled" knowing very little about the pressures etc brought to bear at the time and the surrounding circumstances.
-
Hello James, I am sorry you felt you had to justify your relative`s presence in America. I have read the American newspaper account of Avenel`s death which did not seem quite accurate so I did not pay much attention to the rest of the article.
Are you aware of and if so do you have the correct title and author of the book I stupidly neglected to buy in Ypres?
I still find the family confusing, and which branch is which. It is even difficult to sort out which are Christian names and which surnames. Do I take it that the young man killed at Zillebeke in 1914 was named Avenel? It is a nice name
As there were two Baronetcies is it possible that we are mixing up two seperate families?
If you Google Howard Bligh St George you will bring up the two , You will know which one is yours.
Thankyou for your reply, but I am still confused about the family! Viktoria.
-
Hi Viktoria - I think my cousin was upset particularly as he remembers how devastated his grandfather was over Avenal's death throughout his life. The Baronetcy is a red herring the St Georges here are from Ireland and there is no title- Mrs St George was daughter of George Baker - a major mover on wall street. I suspect he was a man it was hard to resist. She had five Children - three boys George (Goga), Avenal and Ferris (later col of the life guards) and two daughters - Gardenia (later Lady Gunston) and Vivien (later Vivien Stanley Clarke). I suspect the portrait is one painted by Sir William Orpen of Avenal after his death. I am not sure about the book you mention - but I am not a great historian beyond my own family!
-
Actually this has spurred me to look at this more closely - I had forgotten there was a baronetcy floating around - wiki is inaccurate in saying " St. George married George Baker Bligh St. George, third son of the second Baronet St. George... " in fact he was son of Mr Howard st George but I suspect Howard (Married to Mrs St George) was probably the younger son of the Baronet - ie a generation has missed in the wiki description - I had forgotten the Roosevelt connection though so that was interesting.
-
Thankyou for your reply, it is confusing isn`t it.
I just remember this photograph ( well I thought it was a photo) of this splendid young man in his Life guard uniform, breastplate, horsehair tasselled helmet and thigh high shiny black boots.
Such a haughty expression.
He attended Eton --- gosh I`ve forgotten now it may have been Harrow, and was so young . He fascinated me and I do wish I`d bought the book but I`d already spent a considerable amount on books about WW1 in the bookshop at the Salient museum in Ypres Cloth hall. But it has led me a dance ever since.Thankyou for your help.
I do think though that as it is so easy to get a false result when you try to research this family that there may be some mix -up. The rootschatter who has done considerable research has such a lot of info, I really think there is a cross over of info somewhere along the line between different branches of this--these-- family--families. Different houses and locations, England and Ireland . Land agents or landed gentry.
Why was he called Avenel when he is listed as Howard Avenel Bligh St. George. It all adds to the mystery. What remains is a young man was killed in the early stages of the war and that is the crux and the tragedy. Thanks again. Viktoria.
-
Just managed to bring up the stained glass window in Zillebeke church which H.A.B.St. G`s mother had installed in his memory.
I just put in " Zillebeke church , stained glass".
It is lovely, St George as you would imagine, but there are so many --- don`t know the correct name--- arms, escutcheons ? The family must be titled and with a long history.
One sheild has" Avenel " underneath ,well you can see for yourself. Just thought I`d pass that on.
There seem to be a lot of people writing biographies about him. Viktoria.
-
I am thinking of going over to Zillebeke at some point on my motorbike - Avenal's life was pretty short so not sure how much of a bio one could produce. Sadly the picture has passed away form the family and I don't know who now owns it. Orpen was very closely involved with our family (see Bruce Arnold's biography of Orpen) so it would have been painted with feeling. I imagine he was known as "Avenal" because his father was Howard - so they probably used his second name - what ever the reason he was definitely Avenal rather than Howard. To my regret and embarrassment I don't know as much as I should about the St George family in Ireland so beyond what I have written I am not sure I can help.
-
Hello Jerry, just ordered your book--- well that`s a lie, my son has just orderd the book for me.
Have you a photo of Avenel ? It seems that what I took as a photo may in fact be a painting done after H.A.B.St.G died . So how accurate it is I don`t know. I should imagine it`s a good likeness if it was painted by Orphen, who was in a relationship with Avenel`s mother. It seems to have been accepted as a family portrait.
Looking forward to getting the book. Kind regards . Viktoria.
P.S. I think it would be interesting to have a photo of Avenel posted on this site, as there has been so much interest in him. I don`t know how to do that.V
-
Hi there,
I'm distantly related to this fellow. I believe this is the person being spoken about here, references to Burke's peerage:
http://www.thepeerage.com/p56876.htm
Regards,
Christian
-
Thankyou Christian, I can recommend the book "Aristocrats go to war" ISBN184884152-3 by Pen and Sword books. www.pen-and-sword.co.uk Written by Jerry Murland.
Your relative is mentioned , his background , family , circumstances of his death and the place where he is buried ,which has interred there quite a number of aristocrats killed n the early days of the 1914 war. You will also find the picture of him which so fascinated me.
I wish I knew how to post photographs, I think other rootschatters who have answered these post would perhaps be interested to see him. Viktoria.
-
James, I suspect you are not spelling 'Avenal' quite correctly. It is spelt Avenel and his full name was Howard Avenel Bligh St George.
-
Hi Jerry, I am interested in Howard Avenel Bligh St. George, I have purchased and read your excellent book, it may interest you to know that I have a picture of his grave at Zillebeke, it was taken showing one of his regiment tending the grave and sent to his mother to comfort her, She wrote a quote beneath it which say's "In that rich earth a richer dust contained"
-
Gosh that is an interesting photo-when would it be dated do you think, not sure when his mother died.
I too have visited Zillebeke churchyard , and seen his grave. We were very sorry we could not gain access to the church to see the St.George window donated by his mother.
Our usual hotel, The Ariane in Ypres was full and so we enquired about others.
We stayed at the Hoogh Chateau Hotel which was a temporary replacement for the big chateau but that was never re-built by Baron Vink . Had I known at the time where Avenel Howard Bligh St. George was killed we would have made a point of at least walking the stretch of road.. but it was just that I saw a thin book about him, in the bookshop at the museum in the cloth hall.The photo fascinated me, but I`d already spent a lot on books so did not buy it ,much to my subsequent regret. He led me on a long search and at last RootsChat came up trumps. I was so pleased to have" Aristocrats Go To War".
What fine young men they were, someone said " we will not see their like again" I`m not sure about that--- there have been many fine young men since, but there did seem something special about them.
One of the books I boughts was " Kastelen en Landhuizen in Groot Ieper" which tells of all the lovely castles ( like French chateaux, not ours like Caernarvon, Warwick etc)
which were used as headquarters by both sides and so shelled, many totally destroyed. Some rebuilt but much more modestly. Others lost forever as Hooghe /Bellewarde.
Is it possible to put the photo on RootsChat? Anyway thanks for your post which although addressed to Jerry will be of great interest to others too. Viktoria.
-
Hi Viktoria
The hand written dedication "In that rich earth a richer dust contained" has been taken as a part quote from 'The Soldier' by Rupert Brooke, his verse reads “In that rich earth a richer dust concealed”
Rupert Brookes Poem 'The Soldier' was the last in a sonnet sequence entitled '1914'. they were first published in January of 1915
On April 4, 1915, Dean Inge of St. Paul's Cathedral read a sonnet from the pulpit as part of his Easter Sunday sermon. The sermon was published in The Times the next day, so my thoughts would be, that the picture was dedicated then framed, after April 4th 1915.
The Framed Photograph shows Howard Avenel Bligh St George’s original Grave which was prepared with a lot of thought, kindness and respect, it had a Celtic cross with his full name on it, a boundry of white painted stones and 6 pillars set inside the stones each attached to it’s neighbour by a length of chain, the cross and plot residing within the pillars, the soldier leaning over it tending the Plot within, was an incredibly thoughtful touch, to the photograph, this was a well loved young officer, and I believe his brother officers paid tribute to him in, creating this comfort for his Mother, as Jerry’s book states, The Church which is also shown in the photograph and the Cemetery were shelled, destroying the church and this Grave.
Regards Jim
-
Thankyou, it really is a valuable photo then. It also proves that no-one could imagine how long the war would go on for or the utter destruction, otherwise such a grave would not be placed so earlly in the war, but this was just months in. No-one could have imagined the four years which would follow.
I`ve done some daft things in my life and two of them are:- a) not buying the booklet I mentioned
b) Later I wrote off for the booklet but what was sent was the war diaries --- I returned them!!! not what I wanted--- see what I mean about daft! I`ll try to get them again. Cheerioand thanks again. Viktoria.
-
I`ve been off RootsChat, due to a bereavement, for some time. I was sorry to have missed H.A.B.St. George`s 100th annniversary. I was hoping my son would show me how to post his photograph but then thought - it is not for me to do,- there are family members who may object.
It would be interesting though if it could be posted. Viktoria.
-
Hi Viktoria
I'm sorry to hear of your recent bereavement, There is an excellent web site named the Long Long Trail, Membership is free, under the members gallery you can see a group of portrait photographs which are from my collection, I posted them on his anniversary, I use the same membership name, Jbarry,
Regards
James
-
Thankyou James,I`ll have a go at that. Viktoria.
-
In answer to your original question, the St.George family descends from Baldwin St.George who was a Companion of William the Conqueror and invaded England with him in 1066 after which they settled at Hatley St.George. Before the conquest they lived at St.Georges near Limoges for centuries. Before that, history doesn't relate; the ark probably. They never achieved a huge title. There was a peerage, Lord St.George, in the eighteenth century but it went extinct after two generations. Nevertheless they are a grand and ancient family which in terms of breeding, with thirteen quartering a to their coat of arms, makes many dukes and lesser mortals look like parvenus. I recommend that those of you who are interested in the subject should beg,borrow or steal an old copy of Burke's or Debrett's Peerage and Baronetage. Writing a book about aristocrats without a Peerage at your elbow must have been like doing the crawl through treacle. The online versions are not yet reliable.
Despite the disparity in ages Avenel and I had a mutual friend. I knew Basil Hambrough in Kenya in the fifties where he was kind enough to propose me for the Muthaiga Club. He was a Grenadier who on the fatal morning visited his medical officer where he found Avenel waiting ahead of him. They had a long chat, Basil said it was all London gossip, before Avenel went in to the doctor. That was the last Basil saw of him and he told me Ave was shot in the throat by a sniper on the way back to his squadron. I have heard elsewhere that he made it back to the squadron and was killed on another mission late in the day. In either case I think we can be sure of the date and the sniper. It seems the latter gained quite a reputation as a sharpshooter.
Alas, you have missed out perhaps the most impressive feature of a tragically short life. At Eton Avenel was elected to Pop (The Eton Society). This club was and is about as selective as you can get, consisting of twenty self-elected members from a school of thirteen hundred with its own premises off Eton high street. Members were easily distinguished by their dress which allowed coloured waistcoats, high collars with white tie, sponge bag trousers, braided morning coats, floral buttonholes and furled umrellas. The common herd wore plain black morning coats since they went into mourning for King George IV and were not allowed to furl their gamps. However members were far from mere dandies, having wide disciplinary powers. To enforce their rules they acted as prosecutor, jury, judge and executioner. The last involved a Pop Tanning, administered with a knobbly stick; much dreaded and far more painful than a mere Beating Up by a house captain with a cane or a Flogging by the head or lower master with a birch. Those about to be Pop Tanned were advised to wear their oldest trousers which would not be much use afterwards. I had tea with Sir Henry Marten at the Provost's lodge in 1947. All three St.George brothers were in his house and he clearly thought George was Pop material too but I have a feeling brothers were not allowed to join. For example Prince William was a member but not Prince Harry; Boris Johnson but not his very bright sibling; David Cameron's brother but not the Prime Minister. Thinking of PMs, when Harold Macmillan fired a number of his cabinet in "The Night of the Long Knives" it was said that he replaced half his friends from Pop with the other half.
So far as George St.George is concerned the notion that he fled to the USA is baloney. He was the firstborn grandson of the richest banker in America - richer than his friend and frequent partner J.P. Morgan by a factor of ten according to Forbes. George F. Baker founded the First National Bank of New York and the Harvard Business School among other things. Unsurprisingly George (aka Goga or Doodle, short for Yankee Doodle) was always destined for the U.S. On his twenty- first birthday in 1913 the old man gave him a million bucks and a coal company to ease him through this vale of tears. When war came he patriotically joined the U.S. Coastguard which was engaged in hunting U-Boats and even sent six coastguard cutters to Gibraltar to escort convoys to England. This does not square with the notion that his mother came over all lily livered about him. I knew her well and such behaviour would be out of character. He played rackets for Etonian and was a very entertaining fellow. To hear him speak you would take him for a Tuxedo toff; which is exactly what he was of course.
So far as Sir William Orpen was concerned, Mrs.St.George had her first three children in a space of five years. This was followed by a pause for refreshment lasting another thirteen after which she produced Ferris and Vivien, in under two,both of whom were remarkably smaller than the others (Howard St.George was a big man; Orpen tiny) with a strong facial resemblance to the good Sir William. Go figure.
I hope you have found this helpful.
-
Hello
Do you have a name and what is your relationship to the family? If you had tea with Henry Marten in 1947 you must be quite old - how old are you exactly?
Jerry Murland
-
I did not want to give my name as I did not want to seem to swank about the St.George family from which my descent is decidedly iffy. However, this seems to have turned into a bit of a family forum and, having Googled you Jerry (respeck, b'wana, respeck and apologies if I was a bit acerbic - I was not amused by the treatment given to George St.George of which more later) I have decided to blow my own gaff. I am Vivien St.George's only son; my name is Antony Stanley Clarke and I am eighty one. The reason for my tea with Sir Henry Marten, by then Provost of Eton, when I was twelve was a typically Etonian cock-up. Although I had been entered at birth for Jacques's house, when the time came he had let my place go. My father being dead Vivien pulled rank as sister of George, Avenel and Ferris complaining to Sir Henry who invited us both to tea. He must have liked the cut of my jib because he got me into Wickham's house chop-chop. A friend told my mother that she should have sent Jacques a case of port every Christmas. I don't believe this but it makes a good yarn. A nice link to the past is that Sir Henry used to cross the river to Windsor,starting in 1938, to teach Princess Elizabeth constitutional history. Thus Avenel shared a tutor with our present monarch who liveth yet.
Orpen (aka Woppy) was through his mother Howard St.George's first cousin once removed. This was close but no cigar in terms of looks. It is the same relationship as I enjoyed with both Rhodie and Pony Duke, George St.George's grandson, but neither looked remotely like me; they were both handsome lads. Woppy must have had very strong genes. I was sitting at a Sothebey's auction a few years ago with my brain in neutral and my mouth agape, just as Woppy used to portray himself in his private drawings, when a total stranger tapped me on the shoulder to ask if anyone had told me I looked exactly like Orpen. Sadly Pony bought the farm very recently, only a year or two younger than me. Buying the farm is American slang. If you know it, skip the following; otherwise it might entertain a military historian like you, Jerry. In WW1 American country boys would take out government backed life insurance. If they died or were shot their families would use the proceeds to
redeem their mortgages. Hence the expression, which I rather like.
My suggestion of consulting Burke's or Debrett's was really for your benefit, Viktoria. It is indeed a complicated family. I use a 1938 Burke's. This is a huge volume and the family takes up over a page and a half of tiny weeny type but tells you all you need to know. It might be worth trying your local library but take a magnifying glass. It would have told Rhodie about Uncle George and Jerry about Uncle Ferris for instance. A word of caution; a St.George family has become prominent both on the English racing scene and the political scene in the Bahamas. They are highly liked and respected but hail from Malta and changed their name from Zimmerman.Can't understand the fellers.
Jerry, you asked about their houses. After Ashorne Mrs. St.George bought Coombe in Surrey which earlier belonged to Lord Palmerston. After that she bought Cam House, Campden Hill in London and The Priory in the Isle of Wight as a country retreat. Howard St.George was not in evidence and I cannot recall meeting him although I saw Granny almost every day; but they never divorced. To my great displeasure one of the clever-dick online "Peerages" describes my mother (but not Ferris) as having been born out of wedlock; but I am too old and ill to take issue with the scum. James, as a barrister you might like to have a go. But I digress. The Priory is now an hotel and an excruciatingly expensive one. It owns Priory Bay which I remember well with its huge and magnificent private sandy beach. One year a freak storm washed away the whole caboodle and Granny simply had another one trucked in. God bless America.
Cam was something else. It's site is now occupied by The Holland Park School. Cam was previously Argyll Lodge, London home of the Dukes of Argyll and before that Bedford Lodge, home of the Dukes of Bedford. It was pretty big. After Wyatville added the West wing in the early nineteenth century it was valued for rates higher than Holland House. I was born at Cam and Granny died there; not cause and effect I hope. I can tell you much more on request but I am drivelling off the subject.
James 57 you seem to have got into the habit of working up mental fantasies, some of them quite barmy, which you then produce as matters of fact. I am used to this and aim off accordingly but to post your drivel here, as with Mrs. St.George's alleged behaviour towards her son at the beginning of the war, could cause serious damage. This forum kicked off with Jerry Murland, a well known military historian, undertaking research on Uncle Avenel. If he had quoted you in good faith in a book, then he, not you, would have got it in the neck from the likes of me. Pray ponder and don't do it again.
Antony