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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Framesmiths1816 on Tuesday 07 October 08 13:50 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am a decedent of a family of Framesmiths and small Lace Manufacturers from, Coleorton, Shepshed and Loughborough. I have been researching my family for most of this year and have found out quite a bit that we didn't know. My 4xG grandfather and his brother were born in Coleorton between 1785 and 1789. Isaac, the young brother, married Sarah Cooke of Shepshed in 1807. By 1816 they had 3 or 4 children and he was working in Loughborough for John Heathcote. It is very likely that Isaac and Sarah were on the Tiverton march in 1816 as their next children were born in Tiverton and there are documents with Both Isaac and John Heathcotes signature for 1818. Isaac stayed in Tiverton until about 1822 and then went to Paris for Heathcote. By 1829 they were back in Leicester and were small Lace Manufacturers and Framesmiths. It has been suggested that the two brothers, Isaac and John are the "Mssers Warners" referred to by William Felkin and who developed Cartwright and Warner's power loom in 1829, being the only Mssers Warners that can be located in the Loughborough/Leicester area at this time.
I have reached that point in my research where I am not sure where to go next. I have been told that Sheila Mason's book Nottinghamshire Lace contains a reference to them but I have not yet located a copy. I have also been told they are mentioned in the "Restriction of Hours Deed - 1829" but I have failed to locate this document so far. I cannot locate anything on Diane Birks - The Loughborough Exodus of 1816. The University of Leicester history department deny all knowledge of this dissertation.
I think that John and possibly his wife Sarah are living in Nottingham by 1841. Sarah (if she is his wife) runs/owns a boarding academy at 19 Stoney Street, Nottingham and that John is a 'Lace Agent'. Both John and Isaac disappear from the records after 1843 (Isaac) and 1846 (Sarah/John) and I can find no death record for any of them. The BMD records are very patchy and the IGI information contains tantalizing contradictions.
What I like to do next is find if there could be information anywhere for their earlier lives and parents Thomas Warner (c1757 Colorton) and Ann (c1759 Coleorton). I suspect that they were probably Framework Knitters/Framesmiths.
If anyone knows of books, archives, documents, societies etc that may have records for this period and area then I would be very grateful for the information/pointer.
Thank you - Mark
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Hi Mark,
I believe I have seen a copy of Sheila Mason's book in the Archive at Nottingham, and I have defiantly seen one for sale very recently on ebay.
Hope this might help!
Copperbeech5
PS It might be worth trying Nottingham University, they seem to have a lot of documentation.... not sure what thought.
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Thanks Cooperbeech5,
Please excuse my ignorance but I don't know Nottingham because I don't live anywhere near it.
Does Nottingham University have a Lace related archive? When you say Nottingham archive, do you mean the County Records office?
I have been watching Ebay but I must have missed the copy of Sheila Mason's book you mentioned. I really must set up an auto search for it.
Framesmiths1816
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There is a copy of the Mason book on www.abebooks.co.uk but very expensive. I am sure they will have a copy at the County record Office - I expect their catalogue is online. They could probably answer your other queries too. Nottingham was one of the major centres for the lace industry. I am interested in the lacemakers travelling to Paris - where did you find information about that?
Andrea
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Hi Andrea,
Thanks for the pointer.
I worked out my ancestor Isaac's movements from the birth of his Children. Very unusually the 1841 census gave his youngest daughter Selina's birth place as Paris. Her year of birth (1823 to 1826) fits with the dates for Heathcote's Paris factory on the Rue de l'ourcine. Heathcote's brother-in-law Thomas Hallam was the manager of the of the Paris factory and was responsible for the move to St Quentin in 1826/27. My guess is that Isaac and family went to Paris from Tiverton around 1822/23 to build, install and setup the 150 frames that the Paris factory had. He probably stayed to see them moved to St Quentin. Certainly by 1828 he is back in Leicestershire where he contracts with Cartwright and Warner of Loughborugh.
How do I know all of this? Well it is a combination of the available facts with reading as much as I can find. Much of the information came from William Felkin's book "A History of Machine made Hosiery and Lace Manufacturers" although Gillian Kelly of the Australian Society of the Lace Makers of Calais helped me some key bit of information. The ASLC have a lot of information on the Lace Makers that went to Calais and then emigrated en mass in about 1850 to NSW. www.angelfire.com/al/aslc/
Did I answer your question ok?
ATB - Mark
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That is fascinating. I am looking for the family of William Hammersley who was born in Calais in 1826 and his father, Benjamin, was a lacemaker. It all makes much more sense now. Many thanks.
Andrea
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Hi Andrea,
I am not sure of the significance of this but I had a quick look around and found this
HAMMERSLEY Benjamin - Fairlie 1834 46/297 25 Feb 1846 45/1467 [4/4261] 975 On the recommendation of Commissioner Massie
HAMMERSLEY Benjamin - Fairlie 1834 48/0088 14 Feb 1848 45/1467 [4/4268] 977 On the recommendation of Port Macquarie Bench
These are "Ticket of Leave" passport records from NSW, state records. They refer to a ship "Fairlie". The Fairlie is one of the ships known to have brought the Nottingham/Calais lace workers over in 1848. However, Hammersley is not in the ASLC list of known Lace workers. I suggest you contact Gillian Kelly and the ASLC as this might be significant to them as well as you.
You have probably seen it but chapter 21 of Felkin is about Lace making in France.
Regards - Mark
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That is very interesting as Benjamin Hammersley disappears and his wife remarries another Lacemaker John Grundy. I assumed he had died but may be he left her and went off to Australia? My daughter is about to spend a year in Port Macquarie - wonder if she will do some research for me?? I think the beach is more likely to be her priority, sadly.
Andrea
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Hi Andrea,
Interestingly, a "Ticket of leave", if the information I found is correct, is also given to a convict. It looks like a permission to travel for special circumstances. These references are for documents in the state archive, so you might be able to find more out. Maybe he also remarried in NSW. Perhaps he changed his name to avoid possible legal issues? That might explain why there are no other Hammersley records in the index.
I assume you have seen the 1851, 1871, 1881 and 1891 census records for a William Hammersley born Calais?
ATB - Mark
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Yes, seen the later census. Can't find him in 1841 though. Thanks - will look into convicts! This a friend's family not mine - pity. I could do with some interesting ancestors.
Andrea
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Hi Andrea,
I got the following back from Gillian Kelly of the ASLC.
"I have William Hammersley on my files. Benjamin hammersley and his wife
AnnRagsdale were incalais very early - by 1825 at least when son. Joseph was
born. Benjamin died 2 June 1830 while living at rue de la Mer. In 1841 Ann
is on the Calais census with William and Joseph - Ann is described as a lace
worker but also as widow Grundy - so I assume she married again after
Benjamin died and was again widowed.
Ann Ragsdale was the daughter of Joshua Ragsdale and Susanna? - Ann had a
sister Suzanne who married Thomas Austin who was also in Calais by 1825. He
belonged to a large and dominant family in Calais . Thomas was a cafetiere.
I have a lot of information on this family if your contact is interested.
The term - ticket of leave' refers to a convict. Many,many of the convicts
who arrived were good people and their employers applied for them to have
tickets-of-leave. This entitled the convict to live the life of a free man
and earn hisownliving, marry without permission etc, providing he remained
in a specified district, or notified the authorities if he moved.
The Fairlie did a convict run to Sydney in 1834 William James hammersley
had a brother Benjamin but he was too young to be on the Fairlie in 1834.
I am now very curious to know who he was!"
This might explain the 1841 census. Hope it is useful to you.
ATB - Mark
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Goodness - what a marvellous amount of information. My friend will be thrilled. Thanks you so much for all your efforts. I will contact Gillian.
Andrea
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Hi Andrea,
Your welcome. I managed to grab a couple of hours in Leicester Records office yesterday and I found Isaac and Sarah's daughter Ann's birth record 11/2/1812 for Shepshed Particular Baptist Church. I hadn't found it on the IGI because it had been mis-transcribed as Waner instead of Warner. So this tells me they were still in Shepshed in 1812 but as the next child William 1814 is not listed then I think they were in Loughborough by 1814. Unfortunately a lot of the Loughborough particular baptist records are missing for this date.
I must admit to being puzzled. Leicesters records office don't have Marriage records for Shepshed PB (only 1861 to 1871). However the IGI does have this information and it is also batch information from Film. Yet the information says "Katholische Kirche. Königliche Kapelle Danzig".
ATB - Mark
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I am afraid the workings of the IGI are a mystery to us all. They can be completely up the creek with that sort of thing.
Andrea
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General,
A lead has come up that puts Isaac and some of his family in Pennsylvania in 1850. I therefore think this thread should be closed. I will start a new one for the other questions that are not yet answered.
Thanks to everyone who replied.
Framesmiths1816
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Hi Mark,
I've only just joined Rootschat, having stumbled across a posting of yours whilst googling, so I haven't read all the postings about framesmiths. I may be able to fill in a few bits & bobs and exchange information about my own ancestors.
John QUAIL was my gx4 grandfather and was a framesmith. He was born in Hinckley, Leics, in 1802 and married Ann GOVIER in Tiverton in 1821. I am not sure whether or not he was part of the Loughborough to Tiverton exodus - he may have made the journey later. He does not appear in the company records of Heathcoat, and so I surmise that he was a journeyman.
John QUAIL's parents were John QUAIL and Rebecca THORNELOE. John QUAIL senior was born in Snarestone and was a member of the Baptist church. His parents were Edward QUAIL and Elizabeth BREWIN of Coleorton.
The Dianne Birks reference is "Lace and Luddism – The Loughborough Exodus of 1816" - Dianne Birks. University of Leicester, 1994. I read a copy some years ago in the library of the Leicestershire & Rutland Family History Society. From memory, I think it was filed under village information - Loughborough, but I may be wrong.
The information about John Heathcoat going to France is recorded in the W Gore Allen book "John Heathcoat and his heritage". I'm reading it at the moment, and a very interesting read it is.
A list of the known original workforce that went from Loughborough, Leicestershire to Tiverton is given in:
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/Oram/loughlist
You probably know much of the above, but I hope there's something of interest there.
Best wishes,
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for you contact and information. I am away from home at the moment, so I do not have access to all my information. However from memory here are a couple of names that might be of interest to you.
Seek out a connection with Ambrose Brewin. There are two, father and son. If I rememebr correctly Ambrose married one of John Heathcote's daughters (possibly Caroline). They were from Leicestershire and settled in Tiverton. Ambrose became John Heathcote's Mill manager in Tiverton. Source of information William Felkin 1867 "History of machine made hosiery and Lace Manufacturers"
I also have Brewin's marrying Warner's in Leicester so there maybe another connection. As I say this is off the top of my head so I appologise if I have any information down incorrectly.
I shall seek out you Gore ref' the Heathcote and France.
All the best - Mark
PS, There are a number of threads on Roots chat about my family and Lace Manufacturer including Isaac's brother John who was in Derby, Leicester, Nottingham and Manchester. You might find some of the information interesting as they are littered with may source information and links that could also be applicable to your own family.
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Hi Mark,
Thanks for the reply. You're right about it being Caroline Heathcoat who married Ambrose Brewin. I haven't yet managed to work out whether the Ambrose Brewins are part of my Brewin family. It seems likely, but Brewin is quite a common name in Leicestershire. Mine are from Ravenstone and Leicester Forest East. The LFE side were licenced victuallers at the Red Cow (which is still there by that name today) in the 19th century. There is some indication that back in the 18th century, some of the Brewin family had a bit of money behind them (unlike most of my lot !)
I'll have a look through the postings as you suggest.
Best wishes,
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Now I am back home I can look at my notes again. I have a little of the Ambrose Brewin tree recorded. Ambrose Junior's mother was Elizabeth Cartright. It is possible she is connected to the Cartright family that moved to Loughborough who also held FWK patents and became part of the Warner - Cartright Textile company of Loughborough.
Our Brewin's are from Castle Donnington originally and I cannot find an obvious connection to Ambrose. Like you say, Brewin is quite common around Leicestershire, like Warner also.
It is interesting that your Quail's were Baptists. So were our Framesmiths and I believe a very high number of the Loughborough Exodus were also. We were very fortunate that the Tiverton Baptist records duplicated the birth information for nearly all of our family members that were born before June 1816 in Shepshed and Loughborough and very luck as the Loughborough PB records are lost for this period. I think I read somewhere that new members of the church had their details entered into the book even if they had been Baptized elsewhere.
As I understand it, there were 10 Framesmiths that initially went to Tiverton and each were contracted for a year except one, who was contracted for 7 years. Some of them were re-contracted and other news one added, so it is possible that your John Quail came later. I think my GGGG Grandfather Isaac might have been the one contracted for 7 years although I have no proof other than that he worked for Heathcoat from 1816 in Tiverton and was still working for him in Paris in 1826 when his daughter Selina was born. Isaac eventually became a Lace Manufacturer himself and took his work to German Town, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA where he eventually died in 1856. There is a a document in Devon records office signed by Isaac and John Heathcote (note : most records for Heathcote listed in the National Archive and elsewhere are listed under Heathcoat (spelling)).
Did your John Quail return to Leicester or did he settle in Devon or elsewhere?
Best regards - Mark
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Hi Mark,
Thanks for the reply. Most interesting.
John Quail & family moved from Tiverton to Taunton between 1822 and 1827. Then between 1838 and 1841, they moved up to Bristol, where he died in 1854.
I've never found his baptism or a record of his birth. From the censuses, he appears to have been born in Hinckley around 1802. So I was interested in your comment about the Tiverton Baptist records. I wonder whether he might be mentioned there.
Have you found any family information in the National Archives relating to the framesmiths, or is it just background historical stuff ?
I haven't found any of my Brewins in Castle Donnington. The furthest back is Jacob Brewin, who married Elizabeth Gilbert in Packington in 1732.
Best wishes,
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Yes, the National Archive (online) has references to documents held in other records offices as well as in Kew. Through the NA I found that Devon records office holds some Heathcote/Heathcoat doc's including one with Isaac Warner. I think the NA also holds the Heathcote Family Documents. There are a number of Documents that relate to Framesmiths in Tiverton. I have a list of Seven so far but Quail is not amongst them becasue these date from about 1816/1819.
Did you know that John Heathcote's brother Thomas had a Lace Mill in Barnstaple. I think they lived in Pilton. His wife, Alice Hutchinson, came from Long Whatton and is also noted as being a Bobbin Net Manufacturer. I am not sure about Taunton but I think there was one in Chard. I think there are two records offices for Devon, Exeter and Barnstaple. I don't know about Sommerset as I have not had reason to research there myself.
Mark
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Hi Mark,
Thanks for the info. I didn't know about the Barnstable Record Office, so that could be useful for the future. Judging by the way my chap moved around, and since I believe he was probably a journeyman, he could have spent some time in Barnstable.
The Somerset Record Office is in Taunton. A lot of my family came from Somerset, so I've spent some time there. They insist that if you are handling original manuscripts there, you have to wear gloves, which they will provide if you haven't any, so I'm always amused by the "celebrities" on the television who are shown handling priceless and irreplaceable manuscripts using their bare hands !
Tiverton, Chard and Taunton were all lace making centres, so no surprise when framesmiths turn up at any or all of them. One of my Quail family married into the Jackson family and settled in Chard.
I tried searching TNA catalogue for Heathcoat, but it said it couldn't find anything. I think it must be me ! I'll have another go sometime and see whether I was doing something silly !
Best wishes,
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Assumming we are going to the same website try http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and enter John Heathcoat for example which returned 508 matches. Some are for other Heatcotes such as his grandson, John Heathcote-Amory. Item 1 is Devon records office - Devon Lace Manufacturers. On the same first page (5th item) is also a reference to Rawleigh Mills Barnstaple.
Interestingly this may be of interest to you on the same page http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?queryType=1&resultcount=1&Edoc_Id=230784
Is is the Will of John Heathcote 1814 Hosier of Hinckley
It is always worth trying different search combinations to thin down the results i.e. Heathcoat Tiverton, John Heathcoat, Heathcoat plus anything of interest. He also had an establishment in London so you will see London references. Also remember the name spelling variations. Heathcoat returns more than Heathcote but both will return different valid items.
ATB - Mark
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Hi Mark,
Thanks for the link. Yes, that works for me. The link that didn't work was:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp
This claims to be the former PROCAT search, but doesn't appear to work. Anyway, using your link worked fine and I browsed through the results. Lots of interesting stuff there. I might see if I can get down to the Devon Record Office sometime and have a look through the references that they hold there. A task for the summer perhaps.
Best wishes,
Mike
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Mark
I was reading part of a Oct 98 thread of yours last night where you mention a relationship in your family with William Morley (1785 -1855) partner in "Boden & Morley" of Derby . ( You call it "Bowden").
Research has shown me that I am a gt gt gt grandson of this William Morley. I have been able to get in touch with one or two other decendents of William.
I would like to make direct contact with you to offer to swap info. I am too new to this group to really know how to do that. Hopefully you can have access to my tree which I have called "William Morley"
regards
Richard
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Hi Richard,
I should probably go back and amend that entry. Research with the help of a number of Rootschatters has shown that I had made an error. Unfortunately it also has brought me to a dead end on that particular line and changed the place of origin from Nottingtam to Derby for my Morleys. They also appear to be in the Workhouse due to an early death of a husband (Unidentified) before 1841.
Sorry - Mark (also about my terrible spelling/typing)
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Hi Mark
and thanks for the reply. Sorry that this looks like a "no match".
Mine were Nottingham origin (possibly Cotgrave) but William Lived in Derby from early 1820s to 1854 not far from his & Boden's factory.
He is also referred to as "William Morley of Lenton Grove" but I am not clear how long his association with that area & house lasted .
Cerainly not workhouse material at that time.
Thanks & best wishes
Richard
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Hi Richard,
I have another family member who I think might have been at Boden's factory in Derby. He moved from Derby to Nottingham around 1821 when he married and set up his own Lace Manufacturing Businesses. His brother definitely worked with Heathcote in Loughborough, Tiverton and Paris, I had though that the brothers both worked together for Heathcote, so I was surprised when he turned out to be in Derby prior to 1821. If you have any pointers for research for Boden's and Morley's I would be grateful for the tips.
Best regards - Mark
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Mark
a good start would be
http://mss-cat.nottingham.ac.uk/Dserve/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=56&dsqSearch=(MgtGroup%3D'Business%20records')
or its top of list if you google "Boden and Morley"
This is the papers of the company held at university of Nottingham. I have visited and viewed some of the papers it is easy to arrange . i think if you explore on from this link there is a detailed list of the papers. Most are contemporary but I also found a 1954 Derby mercury article in the collection that stated that William Morley was "a member of the same family that went on to found I & R Morley" ie the "Hosiery Morleys" However I have not accpeted this as fact and thus far have been unable to either prove or disprove it.
Much of my research after this was started by just googling. Remember to do both "Boden & Morley" and "Boden and Morley".
The first Boden was John then it was Henry from memory.
Of course Felkin's book has some mentions
good luck
Richard
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Hi Richard,
Thanks for this information. I didn't know Nottingham had these papers.
We also have our Subscribers Ed' of Felkin 1867 which always makes fascinating reading.
ATB - Mark
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Hi Andrea,
I got the following back from Gillian Kelly of the ASLC.
"I have William Hammersley on my files. Benjamin hammersley and his wife
AnnRagsdale were incalais very early - by 1825 at least when son. Joseph was
born. Benjamin died 2 June 1830 while living at rue de la Mer. In 1841 Ann
is on the Calais census with William and Joseph - Ann is described as a lace
worker but also as widow Grundy - so I assume she married again after
Benjamin died and was again widowed.
Ann Ragsdale was the daughter of Joshua Ragsdale and Susanna? - Ann had a
sister Suzanne who married Thomas Austin who was also in Calais by 1825. He
belonged to a large and dominant family in Calais . Thomas was a cafetiere.
I have a lot of information on this family if your contact is interested.
The term - ticket of leave' refers to a convict. Many,many of the convicts
who arrived were good people and their employers applied for them to have
tickets-of-leave. This entitled the convict to live the life of a free man
and earn hisownliving, marry without permission etc, providing he remained
in a specified district, or notified the authorities if he moved.
The Fairlie did a convict run to Sydney in 1834 William James hammersley
had a brother Benjamin but he was too young to be on the Fairlie in 1834.
I am now very curious to know who he was!"
This might explain the 1841 census. Hope it is useful to you.
ATB - Mark
Hi
I've just registered with rootschat and immediately find your posting re- William James Hammersley who I have come forward in time with to Hugh Ragsdale Hammersley who married Frances Adeline Sanderson. Frances was a cousin of my grandfathers. Most interesting reading. I wondered why the connection with France. I have also today found the link with Ragsdale on IGI and am pleased to see on rootschat confirmation : - ) would be great to chat Andrea
Annie
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Hi Annie,
The connection with France involved the Economic and Technical climate of the industrial revolution as it applies to the Lace Making Industry. Many lace makers started working (illegally) in France to avoid having to pay copyright fees to people like John Heathcote who held the patents for mechanised Lace Manufacture. Many of these Manufacturers were from Nottingham although some were from Derbyshire and North Leicestershire. As the price of Lace kept falling the industry found itself under more pressure from cheap French/Belgium imports. Around 1848/1850 a group of about 150 Calais based ex-English Lace Manufacturers moved and a large group to Australia.
Hopefully Andrea will pick up copies of these messages and reply. In themean time Gillian can be contacted through the ASLC (Australian Society of Lace Makers of Calais) http://www.angelfire.com/al/aslc/contact.html
An online copy of the Felkin book can be found at http://www.archive.org/details/ahistorymachine00felkgoog
I hope this is useful
Best regards - Mark
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Wonderful thank you Mark.
Annie
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Hi Annie
How interesting that you are connected to the Hammersley family. I was helping a friend who is a direct descendant. If you want further details I can send them by our personal message system.
Andrea
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Hi Andrea
Lovely to hear back from you thank you. Definitely, I would be delighted to hear from your friend who is related to the Hammersleys.
Kind regards
Annie
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I'm not sure whether this thread is still active but Ihave quite a lot of information on the Ambrose Brewins (there were three of them)
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Hi Roger,
I would be interested to know whether any Ambrose Brewin who was a lace manufacturer was in business anywhere apart from Loughborough or Tiverton. I have a framesmith ancestor (John Quail) who worked initially in Tiverton but then moved to Chard.
Regards,
Mike
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Not as far as I know. There seem to be Brewins in all sorts of places and may well be Ambrose Brewins. If there are, I'm pretty sure that they are not closely related to the Loughborough ones.
Of these Ambrose 1 was a maltser, his son Ambrose 2 was the one who went to Tiverton (being Heatcoat's manager, son in law and partner. Ambrose 3 (my great-grandfather) was the nephew of Ambrose 1, and was involved in the development and spread of powered knitting machinery.
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Thanks for your reply Roger.
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Mike
I don't know how familiar you are with the history of lace-making machinery - apologies if this is "old news". Practical lacemaking machinery was developed by John Heathcote who, with his partner Boden, built a factory in Loughborough. After Luddite attacks on the factory Heathcote moved to Tiverton. Ambrose Brewin 2 was Heathcote's manager and moved too, as did many of the people who worked in the factory. (I think I've seen the name Quail on a list somewhere online).
I can see that Boden's was one of the main lace factories in Chard (which eventually became at least as important a centre as Tiverton), so perhaps Heathcote and Boden went separate ways. I imagine that some of Heathcote's workers could have ended up in Chard.
Roger
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Hi Roger,
Thanks again for the info. Yes, I've researched the topic quite a lot and the Quail name that you recall on a list would have been a posting of mine.
The lace industry in Chard built up after Heathcoat's patent for a bobbin lace machine expired in 1832. I suspect that my ancestor worked for Joseph Wheatley, but I can't be certain and so I'm always on the lookout for any other lace manufacturer that he could have worked for. As far as I know, Boden did not set up in Chard. I suspect Ambrose Brewin didn't either, as it would have been in competition with his father-in-law, John Heathcoat, but you never know in this game !
Best wishes & thanks again,
Mike
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Mike,
See, for example, https://www.somersetheritage.org.uk/downloads/eus/Somerset_EUS_Chard.pdf for information on Boden's Mill in Chard. It's a listed building and there seem to be plans to develop it. I agree about Ambrose - I haven't come across any sign of trying to split from the Heathcote business. Indeed I can't see why he would want to.
Roger
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Hi Roger,
Thanks very much for that reference - very useful. I recall now that I had found references to Boden in Chard, but only after my guy was already dead. According to your reference, Boden set up there in 1837. I'm interested in the period between 1823 and 1829, prior to the expansion of the industry. It looks like the early manufacturers were Joseph Wheatley and John Oram, although I believe Oram was a needlemaker before establishing his lace business.
Best wishes,
Mike
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Mike
You're obviously far more knoweldgable than me in this area but, according to the records of Boden and Company, Boden set up a new partnership (without Heathcote or Brewin as partners) in 1821:
https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/search/archives/f861c69b-557a-38c7-9a92-7a377f8e1e9e
I don't know when Brewin became Heatcote's partner
Roger
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Hi Roger,
That's another very useful reference. However, it states that Boden had branches in Barnstable and Derby and makes no mention of Chard. Odd. It also states the year for Heathcoat's patent expiry as 1821, whereas I thought it was later. I've got a couple of books about Heathcoat, so I'll have to go back to them a re-read. Thanks for stimulating my thought processes and providing such useful references.
Best wishes,
Mike
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Mike,
I keep thinking that I've no more to add, but a quick Google reveals:
On Boden in Derby and Barnstaple (but not Chard) https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1385385
More Boden company records http://mss-cat.nottingham.ac.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=Catalog&q=Refno:Bo
Roger
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Thanks one again Roger. Since my daughter works for Historic England, I really should have found that reference myself, but thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
I presume you know that the Tiverton Museum holds many of the records of Heathcoat's company. Unfortunately for me, I think my ancestor was probably a journeyman, and therefore paid by the day. If he had been an employee, he would have appeared in the company records, which he doesn't.
Some years back, my wife and I visited the museum and arranged to talk to a retired employee of the Heathcoat company. He said that when he was a young apprentice, he remembered talking to older employees who had, in their youth, talked to some of the people who were involved in the exodus from Loughborough to Tiverton in 1816. So it doesn't take too many generations to span the years back to 1816.
Thank you again for your help - much appreciated.
Best wishes,
Mike
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Mike,
Yet another link, I'm afraid! (But it looks relevant since it mentions the ownership of the Chard factory). http://www.rjoram.com/Lacejohn.html
By the way, Ambrose Brewin 2 was born in 1811, so it seems unlikely that he moved to Tiverton at the same time that Heathcote did. Felkin's description doesn't actually explicitly say that he did but it seems (to me) to be implied. It seems clear from Felkin that Ambrose 1 did know Heathcote, but I don't know of any business or family connections.
Roger
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Hi Roger,
Thanks. Yes, that reference I did know about. I had an exchange of emails some years back with Rosemary Oram. Her website is a mine of useful information.
So your Ambrose Brewin 2, born in 1811, would have been the one who married Caroline Heathcoat, John's daughter, since she was born in 1810. My John Quail moved to Chard around 1824, so clearly he would not have worked for Ambrose Brewin 2, who would be too young. And since Ambrose Brewin 1 doesn't seem to be connected with lace manufacture, I think that answers my original question - sorry it's taken a while for me to sort that out. It's been a useful exchange of information - thanks.
Best wishes,
Mike
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There is a free downloaded pdf book 648 pages on archive.org with a reference to Messrs Warners of Loughborough.
I saw you already mentioned this book so you know this already?
A history of the machine-wrought hosiery and lace manufactures by Felkin, William. Published 1867.
Page 492
“ In 1828-9, Messrs Warners, of Loughborough, assisted, it was said, by Hood in perfecting the movements, brought out in a power stocking-frame netting by thread carriers without hand with suitably adapted pressing and slur motions. “
Andy_T
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Yes, thanks Andy. Although Felkin's book was written some decades after the introduction of machines to make lace, it is nevertheless very comprehensive. It shows how great the technical challenge was, and how many legal disputes followed, with very technical arguments on both sides. Heathcoat made a lot of money out of his invention - others were less fortunate.
Best wishes,
Mike
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This topic caught attention and interest because I have worked in lace manufacturing in SE Asia and one company I worked for for >7 years owned the copyright of all designs of Guy Birkin, the major lace manufacturer in Nottingham.
My ancestors mostly came from Leicestershire and Wawickshire but one branch of my family tree moved near Tollerton, Nottingham. From this Nottingham branch, a William Thurman born at Hickling, Nottinghamshire in 1835 was a lace designer and a manufacturer and he had premises at Harrington Mills, Leopold St, Long Eaton.
Andy_T