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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Armagh => Topic started by: Roxanna on Wednesday 08 October 08 11:46 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am writing for suggestions on accessing the records of the Church of Ireland in Drumgor, Seagoe Parish.
I have an Alexander Pentland, probably born about 1770 in that area. Married to Elizabeth. He likely died in that area.
They had at least 5 children we know of, all listed as being born in Drumgor.
Elizabeth b. 1801
John b. 1804
John b. 1807
George
Samuel b. 1810
I'd like to see if more children are listed and/or locate the marriages of these children.
Any suggestions?
I don't live locally, and PRONI seems to want specific info before doing a lookup.
Do you know whether the churches in that area have folks who do record look ups?
I have checked with LDS and they don't seem to have church records, from what I could locate. (and if someone knows that they do, please let me know the link - thanks)
Thanks for any suggestions.
Roxanna
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Had a look around and can't really find anything online. The church records don't appear in LDS catalogue (searched under Seagoe and only Catholic church records are listed).
PRONI doesn't do research for you but will, I think, provide a list of researchers.
There is this site which lists what records are available:
www.sagp.org/church_details.php?category_id=61&church_id=177&from=church
they have a link to Armagh Ancestry but no idea what services they provide or what they charge for information.
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Thanks.
I will check out the link.
Roxanna
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I seem to have gathered lots of information on the family of Alexander Pentland and Elizabeth _____ to the point where I am uncertain of what is fact and what is supposition. Can anyone confirm or disprove the following:
1. The births of Elizabeth 1801, John 1804, John 1807 and Samuel 1810 are based on christening records from Seagoe Parish Church.
2. George Pentland, born 1806 married Jane Anderson (I'll return to George later after sorting out this generation.) I saw somewhere on the boards that his birth date had been confirmed using census records as 9 November. Is he the George who is believed to be part of this family?
3. Three further children mentioned at various times all of who seem to me to be too late to be part of this family: Elizabeth Jane 1815, Thomas 1829, Ann 1831
4. Alexander Pentland died in 1841 in Seagoe parish and Elizabeth, his wife died in the same place n 1848- is this from a headstone, if so in which churchyard?
5. Elizabeth (1801) married Edward Tapley, 1826
6. Moses Walker married Sarah Pentland in Seagoe parish 4 July 1809
7. The Tithe Applotments for Seagoe 1834 list Alexander Pentland and John Pentland at Crossmecaghley could there be a connection?
8. The 1863 Griffiths valuation has Alexander & John Pentleton at Crossmacahilly. Since this is likely the same place is it also the same family?
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I will reply to the items I know of:
1. This info was provided to me by a research from Armagh Ancestry, years ago. I have seen a couple of the records myself on copies of the Seagoe Parish records.
2. I have no info on the birthdate of George Pentland who is in my line.
3. The other children of Alexander were provided by the same researcher and later confirmed by another researcher.
4. There were death records listing the death year of Alexander and then later Elizabeth. The key to the death of Elizabeth was that she was listed as living at Derrykeevan and the only Pentland family living at Derrykeevan was that of George and Jane. No one has been able to find any burial records or tombstones for them, though I am told that many tombstones have been lost over time, and also that graves were re-used...
5. I will have to check my records on Elizabeth married to Edward Topley. I believe her father was mentioned as Alexander, she was married in Seagoe Parish, and Edward Topley was the sponsor at a baptism of George and Jane Pentland's daughter Elizabeth in 1826.
6. I have no info on Sarah Pentland who married Moses Walker, but based on her age, she would be a child of Alexander and Elizabeth and an Aunt to George Pentland who was born in 1806.
7. I have no info that would connect them, and wish it could be found. George and Jane lived at Drumgor before moving to Derrykeevan in the mid 1820s. Any of them could be related.
8. I agree that the Crossmecaghley and Crossmacahilly refer to the same places, and that those fellows are in the same line, if not are the same folks.... though one or both could be the son of.
Best,
Roxanna
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Thanks Roxanna, that is very helpful, more than most, you will understand how information becomes twisted and confused on the boards and also loses any trace to the original source.
1. I'll list this to check the parish records in due course.
2. The reference to the census records is, I suspect, a reference to a pension application which was checked against the 1841/51 census when these still survived. I have checked the references for Pentlands and it didn't turn up a George but I don't think I checked for Pendletons or Pentletons
3. IF a second Elizabeth was born in 1815 it points to the early death of the Elizabeth born in 1801 but the younger Elizabeth would have been too young to marry Edward Tapley in 1826. If the deaths for Alexander and Elizabeth are correct then he was between 66 and 68 when the two youngest children were born. It would also point to her being considerably younger than Alexander. From what you have said you have not seen records for the younger births so there could be two other explanations; there was a son Alexander whose baptism has not been found and he was father of the two youngest children or Alexander married twice.
The only Elizabeth Pentland I can find born in 1815 was the wife of James McDonnel and her birth date is calculated from her 1836 marriage date.
The putative son Thomas was, I think, Jane Lynass' husband and their marriage record, his death and the 1901 census support his date of birth. The marriage record gives his address as Drumgor and his father as Alexander, weaver. My suspicion is that the Alexander born about 1763 was his grandfather.
The same argument applies to Ann Pentland: her marriage reord shows her address as Drumgor and her father as Alexander and her birthdate fits more sensibly with a younger Alexander than Elizabeth's husband.
4. Is the only evidence which survives that Elizabeth moved from Drumgor to Derrykeevan the baptisms of George Pentland's children?
5. You may well have hit the nail on the head; George' address was recorded in the baptism records of his children Lucy and Elizabeth as Drumgor. The latter baptism was witnessed by Edward Tapley and Jane Pendleton but I've seen no speculation of who she may be. When his third daughter, Jane married her address was given as Derrykeevan. Together this suggests a connection but makes the 1806 birth date I have been given for George impossible. It was, I suspect, based on a death date in 1871 but the only death in Civil Registrations for a George at that period was for John Babe's father in law. Admittedly, I have seen no father for him so perhaps there is a connection but that's hardly proof.
I suspect the baptism records are also the support for the move mentioned above from Drumgor to Derrykeevan.
6. I agree with your assessment which means, if George is accepted as a member of this family Sarah is likely Alexander's sister.
7 & 8 I agree, the place is the same, it just needs a Poirot to work out how the relationships fit. I wonder whether my two Alexanders theory helps?
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Hi,
2. I did look at the 1841 and 1851 census fragments when they became available recently, and didn't see anything for George. If you find anything, I'd love to see it.
3. Regarding the Elizabeth born in 1815... I am not sure that she is the Elizabeth that married Topley. I have no info on the parents of Elizabeth Pentland who married Topley... however, he seemed to have some connection to the family.
I agree, that if she was born in 1815, she would be too young.
I do believe that there was a son Alexander, though I don't have a birth record for him. I had seen births for a couple named Alexander and Mary Pentland.... The birth records were:
Alexander Pentland, b. 22 apr 1832, Drumgor
Mary Jane Pentland, b. 11 aug 1834, Drumgor
John Pentland, b. 1 feb 1838, Drumgor
I have concluded that this couple, having children in Drumgor would likely be descended from Alexander and Elizabeth. It has to be his son or there was another Pentland family living in Drumgor at the time???? no way to verify.
Anyway, when the census abstracts came out, there was a pension request for a Mary Pentland, daughter Elizabeth, who was living with her brother, a Murray in Drumgor. Mary was widowed, and born in 1843. That birth year lines up with the other siblings mentioned above. So I do believe this is Mary of the Alexander and Mary Pentland couple mentioned in some birth records. And I do believe they are in the same line.
It may be that Thomas Pentland married to Lynass is the grandson of Alexander and Elizabeth. That is an interesting thought. (has anyone explored his death record or whether he had a will?)
If so, then the above children and these others could be the children of Alexander and Mary, and the grandchildren of Alexander and Elizabeth.
Thomas Pentland, b. 1829, married to Jane Lynass
Ann Pentland, married to William Jones in 1851, Seagoe Parish
Alexander Pentland, b. 22 apr 1832, Drumgor
Mary Jane Pentland, b. 11 aug 1834, Drumgor
John Pentland, b. 1 feb 1838, Drumgor
4. Hmmm. In 1834, per the tithe applotments books, there is a record for an Alexander Pentland living in Drumgor. If his son was there, living with him, would he have been listed separately?
Also in the 1834, per the tithe books, George Pentland is listed as living at Derrykeevan.
There are records for George Pentland having children first in Drumgor, then in Derrykeevan. At the death of Elizabeth, she was listed as being from Derrykeevan. The record is:
"Elizabeth Pentland, Derrykeevan, age 80, buried 15 aug 1848".
Since George and Jane were the only Pentland family living in Derrykeevvan, she had to have been the mother of George and likely came to live with him after being widowed.
There are records of baptisms for the children of Alexander and Elizabeth, in Drumgor, and there is a record of the death of Alexander, taking place in Drumgor, on 11 nov 1841, age 78.
Misc.
I have begun to think that I should consider all the Alexander's as being connected and related and pursue their lines to see what can be found.....
I'd appreciate any ideas you have.
Roxanna
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2. Sadly, thee are very few Pentlands listed in the surviving fragments of the 41/51 censuses. Who knows where further clues to George's pedigree will come from but one day they may appear, meanwhile is is very much a matter of stitching together families from the existing evidence.
3. Nice work. We have another generation at Drumgor and who knows where that will lead.
4. There would only be one entry in the Tithe Applotments for the Pentland homestead as it is a charge on the land. It is particularly important to discover when the record was created as they happened over a period of years. (Useful background here http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp (http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp).) In this case, if Alexander inherited from his father, Alexander the date would give a clue to the death date of the older Alexander if it is possible to work out to which of the two the record refers. That George was living elsewhere and had his own land is a clue that he is not the eldest son. Now that I know from where the death information came I am inclined to agree that she moved in with son George after her husband's death. This does not imply a complete removal of the family to Derrykeevan, rather that her eldest son had taken over and for her own reasons she preferred to stay with her younger son's family. It does indicate pretty strongly that George is another member of the newly created generation.
I agree that it is only possible to construct families from earlier records if one has a wider view of how people were related to each other.
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I dont know whether what I have will help or confuse regarding George Pentland.
I have been tracing a family named Pantland (they are in my tree) and then I started I gathered everything I could about this unusual name.
There was one George *Pantland* born Ireland that I noted and followed by census from 1841 to 1871 when the name changed to *Pentland* at 1841 he was 40 and at 1871 he was 72.
He married Mary Keable 1821 and they lived at St George in the East raising several children there.
Joe
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Thank you for your contribution Joe, one never knows from where the next piece of the jigsaw may come and it is stray pieces like this which can be difficult to find. As it happens I had found George and his sister Elizabeth. Since she, most helpfully, gave her birthplace as Belfast it is likely that George hailed from the same place and although I have yet to connect them with their Irish family they are recorded in my database and one day we'll identify their parents.
George and Mary had eight children, one of whose marriage I have found. They lived in Tower Hamlets until their deaths in the eighteen sixties and seventies and suster Elizabeth died a spinster in Westminster. If you have any furher information about the family, apart from the '41 and '51 censuses it would be most interesting to see it.
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Maybe I'm wrong but I recorded that Elizabeth married James Ellis St George in the East about the time she was 25.
Rebecca died 1844 and Rosalie was unmarried in 1861 aged 18.
and that's it.
Joe
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Thanks Joe, I agree, that's the marriage I have for Elizabeth; I've checked out the 1861 census with that pointer and now also have a marriage for Mary. She wed John Setchel in 1852. Curiously, she and her husband were living apart, although both in Bethnal Green when Mary died in 1878.
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Always good to have another Pentland family to track. I agree that Pantland and Pentland likely refer to the same line. Any idea who his parents were?
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Looking through my very old records I found that Rosalie Pentland married in Leeds WRY Sept Qtr 1865 to possibly Edwin Lambert.
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My own family tree shows the following;
James Pantland was born 9th Jan 1766 Scarborough Yorks son of James and Barbara nee Saery who married 23 Dec 1760 Scarborough.
Children;
Mary Ann 1800
John 1803 married 1)Sarah Wearing at Wapping 1822 (Pallot's Index) he had other marriages;
2) Sarah Bull 1826 (Pallot's Index) St Dunstan's Stepney.
3) Eliza Hallingham (Allingham?) Christ Church Newgate.
Children
John William 1822
Jane 1825
Henry 1830
Thomas 1835
George 1835
Richard 1839
William 1839
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Nearly correct Joboy, she married James Newton. The od thing is that she was living with her father six years later and I could not find her in 1881.
I see the James Pantland from Scarborough and it is interesting that he baptised his children in what appears to have been a Presbyterian chapel. This could indicate Scots ancestry of, for him, fairly recent vintage. I don't see, however, how he is connected to George since he was born in Ireland.
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Thanks for tidying her marriage to James Newton at Leeds .. as you probably gather I realised early that her family background was different to my own but I persevered .. as you do in this pursuit.
I did find that the Pantlands from Scarborough were Presbyterian and their children did not seem to carry on with this once they hit London.
No there is not a connection to George .. as I said earlier I did not find he was named Pentand until the 1871 census but I kept logging whatever came along..
Joe
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"There was one George *Pantland* born Ireland that I noted and followed by census from 1841 to 1871 when the name changed to *Pentland* at 1841 he was 40 and at 1871 he was 72.
He married Mary Keable 1821 and they lived at St George in the East raising several children there.
Joe"
I may have a brother for George "Pantland".
William Maxwell Pentland married Rebecca Catharine Turner on 30 mar 1828. They emigrated to New York, then St Louis, Missouri. They had at least three children:
Emma Pentland, bap 30 jun 1830, St George in the East
William J Pentland, bap 7 apr 1833, St George in the East
Julia Pentland, b. 27 apr 1837, New York.
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Sorry if this post is long.
Based on a review of Seagoe records beginning in 1747 there are no Pentland/Pentleton/Pendleton families in Drumgor until 1807, when there is the first mention of a Pentland family in Drumgor.
Elizabeth Pentleton, bap 7 sep 1801, d/o Alexr & Elizth Pentleton, Drumgor
John Pentleton, bap 22 jan 1804, s/o Alexr & his wife
John Pentland, bap 14 jun 1807, s/o Alexr & Elizth Pentland, Drumgor
Alexr Pentland, died 11 nov 1841, age 78, Drumgor
Elizabeth Pentland, died 5 aug 1848, Derrykeevan, age 80 (had lived with son George in Tartaraghan)
It seems clear that Alexander and Elizabeth Pentland are the oldest couple in Drumgor and the other Pentlands from there would be their children. (It is possible that this couple (Alexander & Elizabeth) were married elsewhere, because there is no record of their marriage in Seagoe).
Based on the Seagoe Records that I've seen, there are at least four of their children who also had children baptized in Seagoe.
George and Jane Pentland, Drumgor,
daughter Lucy Pendleton, bap 15 jun 1823, Drumgor
daughter Eliza Pendleton, bap 3 dec 1826, Drumgor
son George Pentland, b. 1842, died 13 nov 1860, Tartaraghan
Alexander Pentland and Mart (prolly Margaret) Pentland, Drumgor
Thomas Pentland, bap 3 may.1829, Drumgor, married Jane Lyness on 26 oct 1850, also from Drumgor
Alexander Pentland, bap 22 apr 1832, Drumgor
Mary Jane Pentland, bap 11 aug 1834, Drumgor
John Pentland, bap 1 feb 1838, Drumgor
John Pentland married Elizabeth
Mary Pentland, bap 29 jun 1845, Drumgor
Samuel Pentland, of Seagoe Parish, married Eliza Webb of Seagoe Parish on 26 mar 1842.
Alexander Pentland, bap 1 feb 1844, Drumgor
The Seagoe Yeomanry Corps record have a note that Samuel Pentland, Drumgor, emig 1846.
I have found Samuel and Eliza Webb Pentland living in Canada with five children, including Alexander, b. in Ireland.
In the 1851 Canada Census, Peel County, Ontario, Samuel Pentland is living with his wife and kids
In 1861, Samuel Penelton and famliy is living in Mono, Simcoe, Ontario
In 1871, his widow, Elizabeth Pendelton is living with their kids in Mono, Cardwell, Ontario
This is my question - There are Ancestry Trees that have Samuel's parents as Daniel Penelton married to Elizabeth Flavell/Flevil. They don't offer any evidence of how they settled on those parents for Samuel, because evidence indicates otherwise.
Is anyone familiar with any Flavells in either County Down or County Armagh?
Is the Flavelle/Farrel name common in either Armagh or Down?
If this Pentland line came from outside Seagoe Parish, what would be the likely origin? County Down?
If I'm going to try and find Alexander and Elizabeth's marriage, or George and Jane's marriage, what would be likely churches or Parishes?
Thanks for any suggestions.
Best,
Roxanna