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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: ShaunJ on Saturday 11 October 08 10:51 BST (UK)
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My ancestor Samuel Jones was a Liverpool whitesmith, also described as a coachsmith and a coach spring maker.
This is him with his family in the 1851 census at No. 3 Court, Upper Dalton Street:
HO107/2192 f 278 p 42
Samuel Jones – Head - 51 – Whitesmith – Liverpool
Sarah – wife - 44 (she was born Sarah Ann Pate in 1805) - do
John – son – 22 – labourer – do
Samuel – son – 16 – errand boy – do (he was baptised Samuel Pate Jones)
Sarah – daur - 10 – do
Thomas – son – 9 – do (he was baptised Thomas Pate Jones)
Peter – son – 6 – Monks Coppenhall, Cheshire
Two other children are missing from this list. They are Robert William Jones (my great-great-grandfather) who is listed as a visitor down the street at Gothic Terrace, and Margaret Jones (born 1836/7).
By 1861 this family had broken up.
- Robert William Jones married Lucy Parkes in 1853, joined the Royal Navy and became a Chief Engineer.
- Samuel Pate Jones also became a ship’s engineer (we think in the merchant navy) and settled in Sydney NSW around 1865, where he had 13 children with his second wife Susan Cochran. Nothing is known of his first marriage.
- Peter Jones is listed in the 1861 census living with his sister-in-law Lucy in Duke Street, Everton. He is a watch jeweller, probably working for Lucy’s brother John Parkes (founder of John Parkes & Sons, opticians and nautical instrument makers). I can’t see Peter in subsequent censuses. What became of him after 1861?
As for the others, nothing definite is known. What happened to them after 1851?
These names are so common that fishing in the censuses and GRO indices produces a multitude of possibilities. Does anyone have any bright ideas ?
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Have you tried the trade directories or newspapers
Margaret
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Have you tried the trade directories or newspapers
Yes. I found one interesting item in the Liverpool Mercury (a wedding announcement from December 1826) and some of the 1820's directories list Samuel Jones, whitesmith ( or hosier and whitesmith) at 25 Knight Street. No sign of Samuel in later years though. He's not noted as deceased on his son Robert's marriage certificate ( December 1853) which is the latest reference I have for him.
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Will have a look around for him. Sometimes a fresh eye spots the obvious. LOL
Margaret
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Hi - newbie here.
Have a Matilda Jones from Ireland b. 1862 who married a George May of Lancashire. She moved and settled in Lancashire.(Oldham). Yes, I know it's all needles and haystacks, but if our Jones cross (from Ireland) to your part of the world (and you never know) will share what I find. Perhaps your Jones were from Ireland too???
Good luck to all of us.
matilda
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Just discovered from NLA newspapers that Samuel Pate Jones was an engineer on the North Shore Steam Ferry (the Horse Ferry) in Sydney.
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Hiya Shaun....do you know what religion they were ?.....if protestant it may be worth looking here
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
I have found a babtism for Sarah Pate in oct 1806 (father is Peter Pate and mother is Margaret Pate nee Burge ...it states she was born 5th June 1806...
Sarah Pate is not exactly a common name and I think it`s worth looking at
Thomas Pate Jones babtism is on there 19th october 1842 ...abode St Andrew St...so have a look at St Andrew St for 1841 census....
the family are on lan-opc BUT it will take a lot of searching ....good luck....allan ;)
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This is interesting Shaun....Samuels marriage to Sarah is on lan-opc
Samuel Jones occ Smith
Sarah Ann PEIT Spinster
13 december 1826 St Paul church , Liverpool
but when you put PEIT in the search box it comes up with
Peit
Peat
Peet
Peate
not Pate ...but on the babtism of Thomas it states Pate...so it may have been mistranscribed....
anyway...as they were married in 1826 I would have thought there would be a child born 1827 /1828
is this Robert William Jones ? Robert and Lucy Parkes married in St Mary church Edge Hill , Liverpool
www.lancashirebmd.org.uk
..allan
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Yes that's them Allan. The marriage register does say Peit but the newspaper marriage announcement says Pate. Sarah Ann was the daughter of Peter Pate of Pulford in Cheshire, a mariner who died in New York in November 1815 (not announced until his ship the Vere returned to Liverpool in October 1816).
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Hi,
I am married to a descendent of Samuel Jones the son of Samuel Pate Jones. I have been researching the family here in Australia and I have a couple of questions.
Samuel Pate was married prior to his arrival in Sydney, Australia. Does anyone know who his first wife was and whether there were any children from this marriage.
There is also a photo of all the brothers which looks like it has been taken at a wedding. Apparently the gentleman at the front, 2nd from the left, is Ernie. Can anyone identify the others?
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The nattily dressed chap in front 2nd left is indeed Ernie: Samuel Ernest Jones 1881-1943, son of Samuel Job Jones 1856-1936.
Samuel Job Jones was the only child of Robert William Jones, brother of Samuel Pate Jones.
I have been in contact with a descendant of one of Ernie's brothers and we don't think the others in this picture are family.
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Just to recap, I am looking for these missing Joneses:
Samuel Jones (born Liverpool circa 1799-1800): Coachsmith, Whitesmith, Coachspring Maker, Blacksmith and in 1841 "Ingineer". Last sighted in 1851 census at No 3 Court, Upper Dalton Street.
Sarah Ann Jones (nee Pate, born Liverpool 1805): wife of Samuel. Last definite sighting 1851 census
and their children:
John Jones (born Liverpool circa 1829). Labourer. Last definite sighting 1851 census
Margaret Jones (born Liverpool 1837). Last definite sighting 1841 census with family at St Andrew Street (now found ! See later posts)
Sarah Jones (born Liverpool circa 1840) Last definite sighting 1851 census
Thomas Pate Jones (born Liverpool 1842). Last seen in 1851 census. No subsequent sightings.
Peter Jones (born Monks Coppenhall - Crewe - Cheshire 1845) Watch Jeweller. Not seen after 1861 census where he is living at 124 Duke Street with sister-in-law Lucy Jones (wife of Robert William Jones) and grandmother Charlotte Leadbeater.
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And like Macken_h I'd be interested to find out about Samuel Pate Jones' first marriage. All we know is that he was a widower when he married Susan Cochran in Sydney in 1868. In those days he seems to have been plain Samuel Jones - I think the Pate bit was added later (his mother's maiden name).
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News!
Have just learned that Margaret Jones married George John Cooper in Castlemaine, Victoria on 30 December 1855. They returned to the UK by the early 1860's and enjoyed a successful career in music hall as Newman & Mortimer (or Mortimore), "the great Australian duettists"
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...and it turns out that Margaret Jones, born Liverpool, daughter of Sarah Pate and Samuel Jones, wife of George John Cooper, was the mother of British music hall stars Fanny Robina and Florrie Robina, and also of Master Willie Newman who starred for 6 years as Captain Corcoran in Haverly's juvenile HMS Pinafore in the US.
Tom Bint has written up the story on his website http://www.bint-family.com/robina.htm
This poster is from the Library of Congress website http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/var1993000406/PP/
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Here's another snippet of a clue.
There is a report in the "Era" of the December 1871 funeral of music hall artiste "George Newman" (alias George John Cooper, husband of Margaret Jones alias "Miss Jennie Mortimer") at Brompton cemetery:
"...his remains being followed to the grave by his widow and children (four in number), by his two brothers-in-law, officers in the Royal Navy, and by Mr Nat Ogden, comic vocalist."
Two brothers in law who were officers in the Navy !
One of them would be my ancestor Engineer Robert William Jones RN who was UK based (at Portsea) at that time. But who was the other one?
Margaret had 4 other brothers that I know of:
John 1829 who was a labourer in the 1851 census
Samuel 1835 who by this time was living in Sydney NSW
Thomas 1842
Peter 1845 who was a watch jeweler in 1861
Of these, only Thomas seems a possible candidate but I can't find a likely match among the RN officers listed in the TNA database.
Other possibilities would be a husband of Margaret's sister Sarah Jones (1840), or a relative on the Cooper side, of which we know very little. George John Cooper was born in Chatham circa 1824, mother Ann, and had Taylor relatives in Chatham.
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I've found the first marriage of Samuel Pate Jones (in those days he was plain Samuel Jones):
20 October 1857 at St Mary's Cathedral (RC) in Sydney:
Samuel Jones, bachelor, 21, a stoker born Liverpool England; parents Samuel Jones, a whitesmith, and Sarah
Catherine Donahoe, spinster, 22 a servant born Co Cork Ireland, parents Daniel Donohoe, a weaver, and Johanna Leary.
Same address given for both. Wallace's Lane, off Kent Street, Sydney.
Witnesses John Kelly, Enor Kelly
Catherine drowned in Sydney harbour in 1866 - there is a press report of the inquest in SMH (http://tinyurl.com/nq8xs3c - see final column "Death from drowning".)
There was a child (John) who lived for only 13 days in 1860. Inquest report in the Sydney Empire 31 May 1860 http://tinyurl.com/nmu3fv8
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Hi Shaun,
Well done on your research.
Interesting reading regarding the death of his first wife.
Hilary
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Thanks Hilary.
I still need to find out what happened to Sam's siblings John, Sarah, Thomas, and Peter Jones !
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Hi Shaun,
I have in my tree, a James Jones who was a soldier when he married Catharine Delicate in 1808 Manchester.
Knight Street, Liverpool features alot in my tree, around 1841 and earlier.
I came across this baptism which I have yet to find anything further:
Francis Dillicate/Dillicutt/Dillicute/Dillente James Hewlet, child of James Jones Hewlet (White Smith) & Catherine/Catharine of Knight Street, baptised 4 Feb 1821 at The Church of St Peter, Liverpool. Page 215 Entry 1716.
I am also intrigued by your Pate surname:Do you have any more info on Sarah Pate B 1805? In my tree I have a Hannah Pirtt B about 1800 who married William Delicate/Dillicate, the brother of Catharine above.
Paul.
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Paul
There's a bit more about the Pate family here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=306225.0 and here http://shaunandjane.co.uk/familyhistory/getperson.php?personID=I1098&tree=tree1
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Thanks for that Shaun. I'll continue to search for a possible Jones/Pate link.
William Delicate/Dillicate and Hannah Pirtt's last child Joseph was born 1841 at 23 Knight Street.
Paul.
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Atlantikman
I wondered if you'd seen this from the 1843 Liverpool Directory:
Dillicate William, officer Borough Gaol, 23 Knight Street
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Hi Shaun,
Thanks for both info on William. Yes I was aware of his Gaol job as it is mentioned on the 1841 Census where he lives in Knight Street, and I knew of his clasps but was not sure what the letters stood for - thanks for that. He died in 1855 and is buried with Hannah and young Joseph.
Paul.
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Margaret had 4 other brothers that I know of:
John 1829 who was a labourer in the 1851 census
Samuel 1835 who by this time was living in Sydney NSW
Thomas 1842
Peter 1845 who was a watch jeweller in 1861
Just logging another clue: in a short speech in support of the Tichborne claimant at Pullan's Music Hall in Bradford in October 1873, "Miss Mortimer" (Margaret Jones ) said that she had served Thomas Castro with Brandy at Pemberton's Ship Inn at Port Melbourne in 1864, and that he looked very much like one of her brothers who was at that time at the "silver diggings at Callao".
The timeframe for this anecdote is more likely 1850's than 1864 (Margaret was back in the UK from 1861). So the brother in question is probably John.
The only Callao I can find with silver mining connections is in Peru.
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in a short speech in support of the Tichborne claimant at Pullan's Music Hall in Bradford in October 1873, "Miss Mortimer" (Margaret Jones ) said that she had served Thomas Castro with brandy at Pemberton's Ship Inn at Port Melbourne in 1864, and that he looked very much like one of her brothers who was at that time at the "silver diggings at Callao".
The timeframe for this anecdote is more likely 1850's than 1864 (Margaret was back in the UK from 1861). So the brother in question is probably John.
The only Callao I can find with silver mining connections is in Peru.
According to a report in the Leeds Times of 1 November 1873, "Miss Mortimer" added that this was around the time of the arrival of the Osprey which would date the incident to July 1854.
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Hi,
Just noticed your post.
My husband is a descendent of Samuel Pate Jones (3rd son of Samuel & Sarah Pate) who ended up in Sydney.
I have some information on that family but don't have much on Samuel & Sarah.
I look forwarded to hearing from you and hopefully finding out more about the Liverpool Jones.
Regards,
Hilary
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Hi again Hilary,
You posted on this thread in 2011 and 2013.
How can I help?
Most of what I know about this family is on my website http://shaunandjane.co.uk/familyhistory/getperson.php?personID=I40&tree=tree1