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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Inverness => Topic started by: Cheekybum on Wednesday 15 October 08 10:48 BST (UK)
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My grandmother was born in Inverness in 1901, or so she told her children. Unfortunately she never wanted to talk about her family or their past much. Her name was Flora Gordon but we recently found a document signed by her father, George Lanceley Gordon in which he confirmed that he was the father.
We looked for a marriage certificate for her father and mother, who was also a Flora McPherson but can't find one. We eventually came to the conclusion that my grandmother and her sisters and brothers were born illegitimately and that they were registered under their mother's name and only later changed their surname to Gordon. All of the children were not born in Inverness either as we do know that some might have been born in South Africa. I'm a bit stuck here and really need some help. I'm not sure if a census lookup of the 1901 census will help as she was only born in that year. The only birth registration I could find is that of her father who was born in Haddington. Any ideas on how I can go about finding my grandmother's place of birth? Her exact date of birth was 21-02-1901.
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Hi RenataRoux
Were Grandmother's siblings older or younger than she?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Ambly
She had 5 siblings. One, named Isabella b. 03-07-1898, was older.
We suspect that this sibling was born in South Africa though as she grew up to be Afrikaans whereas the other siblings were bilingual.
It seems as though George Lanceley Gordon met my great grandmother in South Africa but for some reason never married her. They both went to Inverness and some of the other siblings were born there. They later returned to South Africa before the youngest child's birth.
According to my grandmother, she was in Inverness untill the age of 7.
Renata
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Hello,
Looks as though your Flora was a Flora MacPherson - looked for a birth for both Mc and Mac (they're often used interchangeably)
On www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk - also referred to as SP - a pay per view site there are only 3 entries for 1901 births for a Flora Mc/ or Macpherson in Scotland
1901 MACPHERSON FLORA F SLEAT /INVERNESS 115/00 0019
I'd imagine she's yours. You now need to part with £6 (which will buy you 30 credits - or someone may have spare. A total of 6 credits will allow you to download her birth entry. The birth entry will give mothers and fathers names - and if the mother had been married would have given her maiden name. Will also give fathers occupation.
The remaining credits will allow for download of the 1901 census details - a copy - not transcription - and will allow you to get a further 3 downloads.
Census in 1901 was on 31st March.
If you post the details others will help :O)
Regards, Steve
The other 2 Floras were:
MCPHERSON FLORA F MILTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK
MCPHERSON FLORA F ANDERSTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK
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Hi
To prevent wasting units - I checked the one that Steve has mentioned earlier on. It is not the correct one.
Gadget
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Well done Gadget. Pooh.
Was just about to post McVities message for 10 free SP credits to do a search."
"www.ancestralscotland.com
Registration is free, and there are no commitments etc., just register for their quarterly newsletter. Once registered they'll send you a credit code to input on the SP site and voila! "
- and just back off SP - after our message. In all of Scotland for 1901 there was only one Flora Gordon born:
1901 GORDON FLORA F APPLECROSS /ROSS AND CROMARTY 058/01 0012
so - maybe use the free units on her. You'll need to Register on SP which is free to use them.. :O)
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I've also checked on Isabella b. 1898 - so far nothing. Obviously was b. S Africa.
Will check on the 1901 for her.
What were the other siblings called?
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Only Isabella b. South Africa b.c. 1998 is living in Musselburgh & Inveresk - surname Cumming, aged 3. Mother Jane. younger brother, Robert,aged 2,
Added- nothing on the passenger lists 1890-1914 for them either :-\
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WOW! Thank you for everyone's help. I did at one point consider the possibility that Flora was not actually BORN in Inverness but only grew up there.
I wouldn't go on the possibility that MacPherson was used instead of McPherson though but thank you Steve.
The reason I'm saying this is that her mother was also a McPherson and the name is later used again as one of my grandmother's sibling's middle names (which may have been a last name first).
Complicated story unfortunately.
I again considered the possibility of her being born as a Gordon after all and did a few searches and found documents on NAAIRS that states the MOTHER Flora as being a Gordon. So maybe George did marry her?
I'll go on the possibility of her being the Flora Gordon then and continue looking.
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Hi Gadget
I doubt that Isabella was ever in Scotland to be honest. As I mentioned before, she grew up to be Afrikaans, unlike her siblings. Her maternal grandmother was Afrikaans and may have kept her in South Africa when Flora left with Gordon.
The sibling born closest to Flora (my grandmother) was the a George McPherson Gordon b. 07-07-1902 who wouldn't have shown up on the census then :(
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Hi
And was George born in Scotland?
Gadget
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Nothing showing for a George M8cpherson or Gordon in Inverness in 1902. Nearest is in Elgin (George Gordon) but I don't want to risk any more credits :-\
any others?
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As far as we know all the siblings except the youngest were born in Scotland.
Thank you so much for your help :)
The others were James b. 27-06-1905 and Donald b. 02-12-1907.
The youngest, a Thomas was definitely born in South Africa again.
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No Donalds, either M*cPherson or Gordon b. Invernessshire at that time.
How sure are you that they were born Inverness?
Gadget
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Hi Renata
I'm going to apolgise in advance for a barrage of questions - but i think they will possibly be crossing our collective mind as we try to help find them ;D
I wouldn't go on the possibility that MacPherson was used instead of McPherson
Maybe not - but an official may very well have recorded the name as MacP in registers, indexes or documents. Perhaps documents less so if the family were educated and literate, but still could happen nevertheless.
Is this George Lanceley GORDON in 1881/1891 - I notice one of his siblings had McPherson as a middle name. (Lanceley, was the maiden name of his mother).
1881: 13 Court Street - Haddington
Parish 709, ED1, HS 42
Head: James GORDON 59, Major & Adjutant Rifle, b Elgin Morayshire
Wife: Elizabeth GORDON 47, Volunteers Active List, b Ireland
Son: John George GORDON 20, General Clerk, b Haddington
Son: James Lockhart T GORDON 18, Commercial Clerk , b Haddington
Dau: Janet GORDON 17, b Haddington
Dau: Elizabeth Mary GORDON 15, b Haddington
Son: Thomas GORDON 14, b Haddington
Son: George Lanceley GORDON 12, b Haddington
Dau: Martha Lanceley GORDON 10, b Haddington
Dau: Isabella GORDON 8, b Haddington
Son: Alexander Scott GORDON 6, b Haddington
Son: Donald McPherson GORDON 4, b Haddington
Servant: Christina BUE 21, General Servant Domestic, b Haddington
1891: 2 Brighton Place - Duddingston, Portobello, Edinburgh, Midlothian
Parish 684/1, ED 12, HS 10
Head: James GORDON 69, Army Retired Major, b Elgin Morayshire
Wife: Elizabeth GORDON 58, b Ireland
Dau: Martha GORDON 21, b Haddington East Lothian
Dau: Isabella GORDON 19, b Haddington East Lothian
Son: Alex'r GORDON 17, Engineer Apprentic Draughtsman , b Haddington East Lothian
Son: Donald M GORDON 14, Scholar, b Haddington East Lothian
Were this family - the sons - "army" like their father was?
I wanted to see what they were doing and where after 1891 but was having trouble finding any of them last night (may have been half asleep with being tired 8)) Also want to find George or any of the older brothers in 1891............
I do see a reference to one of the girls in English Natt Archives.
Martha Lanceley GORDON
was a Staff Nurse - Queen Alexandra's Imperial Military Nursing Service
Reserve - WW1 (Medal Card)
South Africa - 2nd Boer War. Could that be some sort of connector?
You mention NAAIRS - are you able you tell us what was found there, and what part of South Africa ?
Flora being a "McPherson" - did Flora herself say say this?
Did any of Flora or her siblings (apart from George McP) have middle names? If not - it seems sort of at odds to me, with George coming from a family where at least one middle name was 'de riguer'...........
And finally ::), if it's not too personal, what was the nature/context of the document in which George Lanceley 'acknowledged paternity of Flora? Are there any documents that categorically state George to be the father of any/all of the other children?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Ambly
Yes that is him Ambly. I was aware of the fact that Lanceley was a name used in our family long before I started this as one of my cousins is called Lanceley
I have no idea whether any of these sons were in the army unfortunately. I don't think any of us looked into that. It makes sense that that must have been the reason why George Lanceley went to South Africa in the first place though, as you said. That was what I kinda guessed but it's pure speculation at this point.
The documentation I found was from the Cape Town Archives Repository on NAAIRS.
DEPOT KAB
SOURCE CSC
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 2/2/1/411
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 57
PART 1
DESCRIPTION RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS OF PROVISIONAL CASE. LIQUIDATOR OF THERON AND
LUSCOMBE VERSUS GEORGE MCPHERSON GORDON AND FLORA GORDON (BORN
MCPHERSON).
STARTING 19290000
ENDING 19290000
Don't let that confuse you though, as they refer to my great grandmother and her son. I only found this today though. They refer to a piece of land left to her in his will when he died (I assume).
From what I observed I found that George did marry the mother at some point then ofcourse. I looked at the document again and found that it was in fact NOT an acknowledgement. I'm really stuck aren't I? We can't find a marriage certificate for them in South Africa or anywhere else, although it's not impossible for something like that to get lost in South Africa I must add.
Flora never said that she was registered as a McPherson, she always referred to herself as a Gordon. We were speculating when we started thinking that this might have been the case as we couldn't find a marriage certificate.
I hope I answered all your questions
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Hi Renata and Ambly
I saw that family earlier and mused about the army connection. I then thought about the Boer War and wondered if George had continued with his army career. If he was in South Africa at this time and Flora was b. Scotland in February 1901 it doesn't add up - unless Flora (snr) was sent back with the children.
Gadget
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My whole problem here from the start is that I have a whole family tree but very little information partly due to the fact that my grandmother never wanted to talk about her family and also that I'm the youngest of one of the youngest of the thirteen children she had. I'm guessing that there must be some documentation somewhere but many my father's siblings have passed away and the family that married into ours is not very cooperative. I'm going on what I was told mostly so I may be wrong to some extent.
Although I grew up in South Africa I don't even know the dates of the wars so I never thought of it in the way you mentioned it Gadget.
I've got to admit that I'm beginning to doubt my grandmother's story but then again it wasn't only her that said she was born and raised for some time in Inverness.
Looks like I'm going to have to continue looking for information in South Africa I guess.
Is there anywhere I can look for passenger lists for that time though?
That's about all I can think of at the moment.
Just for the record, I checked both the Flora McPhersons and the Flora Gordon born in 1901 and it wasn't her.
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I checked the passenger lists of ships leaving UK 1890-1914 for both surnames and couldn't find them.
Gadget
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Thank you for your trouble Gadget, I really appreciate it.
If I can make one last request though.. Can you or anyone help me find out when George went to South Africa then?
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Hi Renata
A fine mystery you have ;D
Sorry am I missing something here 8)
Grandmother, Flora GORDON b 1901- daughter of George Lanceley GORDON b 1868 Haddington Sct., and (unknown)
Grandmother has 5 siblings, one being George McPherson GORDON b 1902.
Then you say
in regards to: NAAIRS record:
RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS OF PROVISIONAL CASE. LIQUIDATOR OF THERON AND
LUSCOMBE VERSUS GEORGE MCPHERSON GORDON AND FLORA GORDON (BORN MCPHERSON). STARTING 19290000 - ENDING 19290000
.......refers to you GREAT-grandmother and her son.
It looks like Grandmother Flora and her brother to me??
Do we already know that Flora b 1901, had a mother also named Flora? Flora McPHERSON?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Yes both my grandmother and great grandmother was named Flora.
The reason I know that the Flora being referred to in that document was my great grandmother is because my grandmother was already married to a Roux by that time.
A mystery is an understatement to be honest because after more digging I found out that that document was only the start of a whole series of events that eventually led to the land ending up in Isabella's (my grandmother's sibling) husband's family's hands.
This will definitely keep me busy for a few years :)
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Hi Renata
This may be a huge red herring - it's doing my head in!!
Found this:
1891: 86 Bule Street - St Marys, Cardiff, Southward, Glamorgan, Wales
Head: Sarah SIMMONDS 24, unm, Cafe Manageress, b Swansea
Servant: Sarah RITCHINGS 29, unm, General Servant, b Aberbeg. Glam.
Lodger: George L GORDON 21, unm, Sailor, b Portobello, Scotland
Interesting because: 'our' George Lanceley GORDON's parents & sibs were in Duddingston, Portobello in 1891 and 1901 (I found the 1901) ....having moved ther sometime between 1881 (when George Lanceley was 12), and 1891
Scotland People have 2 George L GORDON born 1868-1872:
1) George Lanceley GORDON 1869 - Haddington, East Lothian
2) George Leslie GORDON 1870 - Elgin. Moray
The latter is also on the IGI: Born Nov 1870 Elgin, to John GORDON and Barbara WHITE.
Census 1871: (and IGI has all the extracted births to match)
14 Lady Lane - Elgin Burgh, Moray
Head: John GORDON 52, Carrier, b Dallas, Elginshire
Wife: Barbara GORDON 33, b Forres Elginshire
Son: John GORDON 18, Carrier, b Dallas, Elginshire
Daughter: Betsey GORDON 17, Housekeeper, b Dallas Elginshire
Son: Alexander GORDON 12, Scholar, b Dallas Elginshire
Dau: Margaret GORDON 5, b Elgin Elginshire
Son: George GORDON 5 mths, b Elgin, Elginshire
IGI shows, that John GORDON's first wife was Margaret McGILLIVRAY who is the mother of John, Betsey (Elizabeth) and Alexander.
Elgin in relation to this family, of course, is interesting because that's where George Lanceley's father was born.....
FreeBMD
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
Has MARRIAGE: Dec Qtr 1898 Dover Kent - with the following 2 brides and 2 Grooms:
Matilda Annie BUCK
George Leslie GORDON
Frederick James TERRY
Florence Louisa WATKINS
Dover, of course being a port beloved of sailors..........
1901 Census has:
Frederick J TERRY visiting in Dover, with his wife Matilda TERRY and 1yr old son, Percy.
RG13/ Piece: 842/ Folio: 27/ Page: 7
1901 Census also has:
1 Liverpool Street, Dover St James, Kent
RG13 / Piece: 839 / Folio: 96; Pg 1
Head: John SHEPPHERD 40, married, Foreman painter (worker0, b Bury Sussex
Stepson: Albert Geo NORRIS 24, married, Valet Dom, (worker) b Dover Kent
Daughter: Florence GORDON 21, married, b Dover Kent
Stepson: Arthur WATKINS 18, single, Painter (worker) b Dover Kent
StepDaughter: Bessie WATKINS 16, single, b Dover Kent
Father-In-Law: James MAKEY 77, widr, Retired Valet, b Eyethorne Kent
Grandaughter: Flora GORDON 1, b Scotland
and:
1881:7 Russell Place - Dover St James, Kent
RG11 / Piece: 1001 / Folio: 115 / pg 6
Head: Charles WATKINS 33, Coachman, b Durley??, Hampshire
Wife: Louisa WATKINS 28, b Dover Kent
Son: Albert WATKINS 5, Scholar, b Dover Kent
Dau: Flora L WATKINS 2, b Dover Kent
Son: Henry C WATKINS 5 mths, b Dover Kent
??? scratch scratch!
Cheers
AMBLY
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scratch scratch scratch........
Scotlands People: has 4 x Flor* GORDON born between 1897 and 1901 (may as well look at the whole shebang!)
1898 - Florence Margar. GORDON - Kilgreggan and Cove, Dunbarton - 502/02 0009 (She is in Cove in 1901, parents John & Alice)
1899 - Flora GORDON - St Rollox, Glasgow City, Lanarkshire - 644/06 1728
1901 - Flora GORDON - Applecross, Ross and Cromarty - 058/01 0012
and.......
1899 - Flora Margaret GORDON - Ardersier, Inverness - 091/00/0036
I know you have "Lanceley" as a name in the family and that James GORDON, the Army Major's, parents were (probably?) a John GORDON & Janet McPHERSON (IGI). But what do you have that says George Lanceley GORDON is Flora jnr's father - was it stated on her marriage to Mr ROUX?
hmmmm.....
Cheers
AMBLY
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Now this one looks interesting, Ambly:
1901 Census also has:
1 Liverpool Street, Dover St James, Kent
RG13 / Piece: 839 / Folio: 96; Pg 1
Head: John SHEPPHERD 40, married, Foreman painter (worker0, b Bury Sussex
Stepson: Albert Geo NORRIS 24, married, Valet Dom, (worker) b Dover Kent
Daughter: Florence GORDON 21, married, b Dover Kent
Stepson: Arthur WATKINS 18, single, Painter (worker) b Dover Kent
StepDaughter: Bessie WATKINS 16, single, b Dover Kent
Father-In-Law: James MAKEY 77, widr, Retired Valet, b Eyethorne Kent
Grandaughter: Flora GORDON 1, b Scotland
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Flora Margaret Gordon's parents - b. 28 June 1899, Fort George
Could the Lanceley have been a wrongly interpreted Lance (from lance corporal) at some stage - written lance-cpl or the signature containing Leslie was misread ???
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OOh Gadget, ! I don't know what to think!
sooooooo many boxes ticked, so many not. I was rather hoping this Flora's birth would turn out to have the same day and month of birth as Renata had - 21 Feb at least - if not the same year. :'( And I was hoping George Leslie on the 1898 marriage index (which is clearly "leslie" could have been a mis-read of Lanceley on the original document - but seems not, since it's again "Leslie" on the birth of the daughter.....
The fact Lanceley is the maiden name of James GORDON's wife, the middle name of 2 of their children and has been handed down into Renata's South African family
Still - the parallels...... ???
Cheers
AMBLY
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I've done Nat Archive searches on George Lanceley Gordon. I've checked for marriages in Scotland and E&W. I've checked for deaths in Scotland and E&W. There's nothing that looks promising so far.
I popped into NAAIRS but have only used it a couple of times before so not sure of it. I remember a few years ago finding long lists of marriages and births in SA - I was looking for some of my kin - but I can't remember the source :(
I wonder if it's worth Renata putting a query on the SA board for info on the later children, deaths, etc.
Gadget
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Let me be honest because I really appreciate the trouble that both of you have gone through in order to help me.
To start with... I started with this because I was always fascinated by the fact that my grandmother came from Scotland and when I was recently told by my father that he had this whole family tree but with nothing to prove it it got me going.
Alright now the first thing that I noted was my grandmother's name, Flora. She never used her real name and called HERSELF Florence which led to 2 of my cousins having that name. It was only after her death that we noticed in her identity book that her real name was Flora.
As I said, I don't have any marriage certificates but I'm sure I'll be able to find my grandmother's. This is starting to tickle me pink though as I'm beginning to have doubts myself about a whole lot of things.
George Lanceley Gordon did go to South Africa though and he died there, that much I know. Strange thing is no mention is made of a spouse on the records I found so far.
I never considered the possibility that my great grandmother might not be a McPherson as the one mentioned in my tree just made sense being born in South Africa to Afrikaans parents and all.
What bothers me though is that you said earlier that you can't find any record of the names on passenger ships?
Alright now I'm going to have a look at everything and get back to you but I can tell you that I was confronted with alot of secrecy when I started with this so I knew it wasn't going to be easy.
Hmmm...
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Then again... Now that you mention NAAIRS..
The records did show my great grandmother as being born as a McPherson.
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And just to jolly things along.... ;D ;D ;D
2nd battalion Seaforth Highlanders:
http://www.victorianwars.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=186
Feb. 1897 To Dover
Jun. 1897 To London for Diamond Jubilee
Jan. 1899 To Fort George
21.10.1899 Leave Glasgow in S.S. ‘Mongolia’ for South African War.
18.11.1899 Arrive Cape Town
1899-1902 South African War. Served in Highland Brigade. Battle honours: PAARDEBERG, SOUTH AFRICA 1899 – 1902
1902 Transvaal, South Africa
I checked FindMyPast - GORDON's to South Africa 1901 to 1920.
Lots. And not one of them with a first name of initial. Most with no approx yob - just "unknown" or "adult" etc. All left from English ports Southampton or Liverpool...... :'(
Cheers
AMBLY
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I checked FindMyPast yesterday - 1890-1914 for M*cpherson and Gordon variation - nothing at all that looks promising.
Renata ~ you say that you have a tree which your father gave you. Do you know who drew it up and their sources?
Also, I'm not sure of the SA BMD records but I think I would be getting the death and marriage certs for Flora and her siblings and the birth certs of the later siblings who were born SA.
This would give you more firm evidence. At the moment we seem to be looking for any Gordon/M*cpherson birth in Scotland :-\
Gadget
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Just a thought.....
Regarding the 4 NAAIRS records 1929 to 1931 naming Flora Gordon (born McPherson), and one of them also naming George McPherson GORDON.....
I wonder if there any way this information may have been given by someone other than Flora herself, someone who thought her maiden name was McPherson..........do you know when your Gt-grandmother died?
Cheers
AMBLY
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The date I was given on the tree is 25-10-1939.
I stumbled across a South African site with quite a few BMD's Ambly. What I found really interesting is that it covered a whole lot of the McPhersons for the time and area where my g grandmother is supposed to have came from but no sign of her or her parents.
The document I found and mentioned earlier refers to a piece of land there though and my gg grandparents supposedly got married there but I still can't find any record of it.
Neither side seems to make any sense now except for the fact that my g grandmother is specifically referred to being a Gordon b. McPherson in the document I found yesterday.
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Hi Renata
My name is James Gordon . My father (who died in April this year) was George Lancely Gordon and he is buried in Citrusdal (South Africa). My grandfather's name was George Mcpherson Gordon (he stayed in the then Ysterplaat (Milnerton) in Cape town all the years that I can remember.He married my grandmother Kitty Maritz (she was a descendant of the famous Boer general Manie Maritz) His brothers were Donald , Thomas and the others but I did not know them. I only met uncle Donald (I was still small but I remember him well). Uncle Donald Gordon worked for AVBOB undertakers in a small Karoo town called Brandvlei.My father's brothers & sisters is/was Gert Gordon(deceased) he stayed in Vredendal at the time of his death , Wilhelm Gordon (deceased) he stayed in Bloemfontein at the time of his death , Joyce Gordon (deceased) she stayed in Pretoria at the time of her death , James Gordon (my uncle) - he is a renowned painter artist and still stays in Panorama Cape Town , Alexander Gordon (my uncle) he still stays in Citrusdal and he is a pensioner but still runs a very popular fruit stall close to Citrusdal called "kom proe padstal". My only living aunt is Isabella Florence Gordon (she married Loddy Spencer) and she is still staying in Cape Town as well. If you want I can try and locate some telephone numbers for you. My uncle James have got two son's also George (Geo) and James . My uncle Alexander (Alex) have only got one daughter Belinda. My father , George Lancely Gordon married my mother Cornelia Magrietha Smit and they had 4 sons. My eldest brother is my stephbrother because my mother was divorced when my father met her so my eldest brother kept his father's surname - he is Herman Fouche - he is staying in Ashleigh in Pinetown. My father and mother were married for 54 years. My eldest brother's name is George Marthinus Gordon , then it is me James Gordon and then my youngest brother Gerhardus Gordon. You can see my mother wa a real Boertjie (judging by the names). I have got a daughter and a son , my daughter is Jamie-Lee Gordon and my son is Joshua James Gordon. I will try and assist as far as I can wrt your questions. The way that I understand it is that our great grandfather was James Gordon(I bear his name) - he used to go to Portabella Bay for his holidays and I understand that he resided in Edinburgh. He emigrated to South Africa and he bought one of the biggest farms in the district of Beaufort West - the farm is called Hottentotsrivier and is somewhere on the Frazerburg road. My uncle James (Jim) actually went to the farm a couple of years ago and it is now the property of the Esterhuizen or maybe van der Westhuizen family. My uncle walked throught the old homestead which basically still looks the same as he can recall it from his childhood years. My grandfather , George McPherson and his brothers grew up on this farm as well as my father and his brothers and sisters untill the great depression of 33. I hope this helps in the meantime. - Regards James Gordon.
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Hi James
Thank you so much for your reply.
I eventually gave up on searching for information. As you can see, my last post was almost 2 years ago.
I asked my father, Eben Roux, to read your reply and he's all excited again. He also remembers your uncle Donald quite well.
The last bit of your reply is spot on as I did alot of research and my information matches yours.
We are still trying to establish where my grandmother, Flora Gordon, was actually born. My grandmother was your grandfather's older sister. The oldest was Isabella though.
Our problem comes in that she never really talked about her childhood, although I do know that most of the children grew up on the farm (Port Nolloth is also mentioned). My father do mention that they went for many visits in Beaufort West on the farm, which he describes as really large.
Your grandfather was born on 7 July 1902 if I am correct then? I don't have the date he died, if you could maybe provide me with that info for a start?
As far as I can gather, you only knew about the sons that was born. The other two were the older daughters, one my grandmother and the other was Isabella.
I also can't find any information about an actual marriage taking place between our great grandfather, George Lancely Gordon and Flora McPherson. This is another confusing part. Unless you or someone else is in possession of a document proving an actual marriage, my grandmother used to say that our great grandparents were (sorry for the Afrikaans) "...getroud met die handskoen...", maybe you know something about that?
Another thing is that my grandmother used to mention that she was born in Inverness. I tried to establish whether there were any records of this but I didn't get very far. Apparently she was bout 7 years old when they came to South Africa (again). That would mean that Isabella was born in SA and Thomas was born in SA. My research at another site confirmed this, as I could find no record of my grandmother, your grandfather, or uncle Donald being born in SA.
Do you have any idea where your grandfather was born?
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Hi Renata - Are you actually English or Afrikaans speaking because I am now a real Afrikaans speaking Boertjie (home language also Afrikaans (but no problem if you are English - it will just make conversation easier) - I think I will put you in touch with my aunt Issabella (Issy) - she actually went to Scotland and into the archives and then my uncle James (Jim) wrote a complete book about the family and his childhood days which I have in my possession. There is some black and white photos of the George Lancely Gordon castle in Edinburgh and the house in Portabell Bay where great grandfather James stayed when he was n holidays etc. If you start talking to them I would really like to be kept in the loop all the time as well ,seeing that I am also very interested in the family hierarchy. Where are you people residing - we stay in Pinetown and my current age is 49.
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Hi James I am actually Afrikaans and I just turned 28, but I'm from the same generation as you. My father was the second youngest of ten children and I was born when my dad was in his 40's already, so that made me the youngest of this whole generation. We live in Pretoria at the moment, my parents are both retired. I would appreciate it if you can contact me on my email (*) . Would just be easier to switch to Afrikaans. I am desperate for some specific info, in turn I will send you everything I found from my research (some interesting records came up). I heard about the castle and my dad also knew the picture of it. I also have a photo of George Lancely Gordon and Flora McPherson, but you might already have that. I hope to hear from you soon :)
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Hi third cousin Scottish Boer,
Cheekybum and I have been emailing, and in checking some of her info, I found your postings. My Grandfather was Thomas Gordon b. 1867, son of James Gordon and brother of George Lanceley Gordon. I have done research on the Gordon line and visited Scotland. Gathered much info on James b. 1821 who had a long military career in the Highlanders. alas, there is no castle, just some modest dwellings in Haddington and Portobello, Edinburgh!
Thomas emigrated to USA in 1892, joined US Army and thence to Philippine Islands for the US Occupation. In retirement he traveled home to Scotland, and died in Channel Islands. My mother and her sisters then grew up in Edinburgh. My mother was a WWII war bride, so back to the USA.
Donald McPherson b. 1876, the youngest, emigrated to Canada, though appears to have spent some time in SA with George Lanceley. I have been in contact with our Canadian cousins.
Martha Lanceley Gordon served as a nurse in SA in 1902.
One of my American cousins said he'd been told we had relatives in SA, but Cheekybum was the first hint it might be true.
Peter Brown
Connecticut, USA
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Hi Peter - Thanks for responding and what a privilige to meet another family member in the hierarchy.Please bear with me and help me out here , seeing that you guys have been at this for quite some time. First a little bit about myself . I reside in Pinetown , Durban in South Africa and my greatest passion is music , I have been in the music business for more than 40 years. I have got a little recording studio of my own with a profound interest in our heritage. I suppose you could call me the sentimental type. Right , please help me out here seeing that I want to understand this thing fully in order to pass it on correctly to my kids. My dad was George Lancely Gordon , his dad was George McPherson Gordon , his dad was George Lancely Gordon (he was the one that came over from Scotland to South Africa and was married to Flora McPherson). Now , this George Lancely Gordon's father was James Gordon (let's call him James Gordon junior and he was married to Elizabeth Lancely - he was born and raised in Scotland) , and his father is also James Gordon (let's call him James Gordon senior I don't know who he was married to ? - also staying in Scotland). So your grandfather was Thomas Gordon - brother to George Lancely Gordon (the one that moved over to SA and bought the farm Hottentotsriver near Beaufort West). Was James Gordon senior the one with the military career in the Highlanders...or before him still back in the generations ? What was your dad's name then ? Does this mean that Donald McPherson and George Lancely are cousins ? Where does Martha Lancely Gordon fit in here...wow I am getting do mixed up here. I would appreciate if you can bring me into the hierarchy line ,say starting with James Gordon junior....wow I am getting confused here....so many Gordon's !!!Regards..
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My Father was Edward Brown. He was in Scotland during WWII and married my mother Catherine Ruth Gordon. Her Father was Tom Gordon b. 1867, older brother to your George Lanceley Gordon b. 1869. Tom and George's father was James Gordon b. 1821.
My research shows James joined the Gordon Highlanders in 1839. He served in Barbados, Gibraltar, India, the Crimea. and Ireland. While in Kilkenny, Ireland he met and married Elizabeth Mary Lanceley.
James Father was John Gordon, who was a coachman in Elgin, Scotland. My research shows there was only one James. I have a copy of James' baptism, so fairly sure on that.
Have to head to the office, so all for now. I have more detail on James Gordon and several photos. Will send when I learn how to do direct messaging on Rootschat.
Peter
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James look on the family tree I sent you, there was only one James Gordon and his father was John Gordon. His mother appears to have been Janet McPherson.
As far as my research goes, they may got married in Inverness. Peter might know though.
Elizabeth (my records don't show Mary) Lanceley, was the daughter of William Lanceley. They lived in Belline in Ireland where he rented some land and buildings according to the Griffiths Valuation.
Thank you for the info Peter, alot I didn't know. Have you found any information or documents on John and Janet yet?
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Renata , I spoke with my aunt Isabella(Issy) Gordon this morning and according to her , there is two James Gordons...a senior and a junior - this is where it is getting confusing - I am just waiting for her to respond as well and I will share with you guys immediately - but it is getting more interesting by the day.
Regards
James Gordon....the 14th or maybe the 18th or what the heck !!!!
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Lol James, actually the only other James Gordon we are aware of was a brother of George Lanceley and Thomas.
He was James Lockhart Tattnall Gordon b. 6 April 1862 in Haddington.
Which is actually interesting because they seem to have used surnames of previous generations as middle names. I haven't been able to find a Lockhart link yet and Tattnall is very rare as a surname and is actually a county in the US.
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James,
email me at (*). I want to send you more detail and photos; more than we'd want to post on rootschat. I'm sending the same to Renata.
Peter G Brown
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Hi Peter
I am researching the Gordon family and came across a posting of yours chatting to Scottish Boer. I am from Cape Town and George Lanceley Gordon b 1869 in Haddington is my grandfather. Would very much like to learn more about his brother Tom Gordon b 1867 in Haddington.
Please speak to me
Regards George Lanceley Gordon (ii)
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Hi Peter
I am researching the Gordon family and came across a posting of yours chatting to Scottish Boer. I am from Cape Town and George Lanceley Gordon b 1869 in Haddington is my grandfather. Would very much like to learn more about his brother Tom Gordon b 1867 in Haddington.
Please speak to me
Regards George Lanceley Gordon (ii)
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Hello to all of you busy creating this tree. It was an interesting thread to read. I am researching Nurses who served in the Boer War so I am happy to add a few more details for you:
Martha Lancely GORDON trained as a nurse at the Western Infirmary in Glasgow, Scotland. She joined the Army Nursing Service (Reserve) in July 9 1897 (before the Boer War). She appears on 3 pages of the QSA Medal Rolls at The National Archives in Kew. She is also on the Nominal Roll of Princess Christian's Army Nursing Service (Reserve) as of September 30, 1900.
You can find her at http://www.boerwarnurses.com
Cheers
Keiron
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Hello Cheekybum
I am Donald McPherson Gordon's granddaughter from Canada. My cousin is Peter G. Brown of the 9 September 2010 post.
My grandmother, Donald Gordon's wife, kept impeccable records, and your posts back up the information that I now have. I also have a photo album of Capetown in the early years, as well as photos of the Gordon brothers there. I'd be very interested in chatting with you and have emailed Peter asking for any info he has been able to collect as well.
Would love to chat soonest.
Deborah Chaplin
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Hello Scottish Boer
I am Donald McPherson Gordon's granddaughter in Canada and cousin to Peter G. Brown in USA. My grandfather was an architect in Montreal and did his apprenticeship in Capetown South Africa where his brothers lived.
My grandmother was an impeccable record keeper and has traced the family tree back to Scotland. I have a photo album of my grandfather's time in South and a few pictures of the Gordon brothers there.
I would love to chat further with you if you'd be open to that.
Deborah Chaplin
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Thank you for that input Keiron, I will certainly be looking into that as soon as I get a chance :)
Deborah, I will ask Peter for your details and email you. I've just been really busy lately and didn't do any research.
As far as the thread goes, I have had so much help from so many people from various sources. I've had people stating things, but as I'm not just doing this 'to build my family tree' I am not willing to accept the statements that has been made regarding certain things. Just like any other researcher, I'm after the actual records to prove it.
With the help of a very good friend who is also a genealogical researcher, have now gone to the trouble of requesting almost 200 documents from the National Archives in order to understand most of what was going on in this family.
My main question remains unanswered, but hopefully I will have the answer one day :)
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Hi Cheekybum
I will be able to answer most if not all your questions regarding the Gordons of Hottentots River as I have spoken to people that actually lived on the farm when George Lanceley Gordon was still alive. I am 75 years of age and go back a long time. But I do have an excellent memory. Contact me
Karools
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Hello everyone. Not sure if I am using this forum properly as I have just registered. My great grandmother was Janet Gordon, eldest sister of Thomas and George Lanceley. My great great aunt was Martha Lanceley Gordon who came to South Africa as a nurse and was also a suffragette. She later lived near my grandmother in the UK and I met her before she died (1959). I have some photos of the family and would like to know what happened to the brothers who went to South Africa. My mother did some research into the Gordons going back to Huntly in Scotland in the 18th century.
Alison
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This may or may not be useful.
I have in my tree John George Gordon, born in the Militia Barracks, Lanark, Lanarkshire on 23 October 1860, son of James Gordon, Major, 92nd Regiment, and Elizabeth Mary Lanceley, who were married at Carrick-on-Suir, Kilkenny, Ireland on 17 August 1854. In the 1861/1871/1881 censuses the family home was in Haddington.
James Gordon was born in Elgin, and Elizabeth Mary Lanceley in Ireland, according to the census. John George was the second of 11 known children, the first, William McP, being born in Gibraltar and the rest in Haddington.
James Gordon died in Edinburgh in 1903. His death certificate says that his parents were John Gordon and Janet Macpherson. His widow Elizabeth died in Edinburgh in 1907, and her parents were William Lanceley and Elizabeth Mary Bagnall.
John George, known to me as Uncle Jay although he died long before I was born, was a lawyer in Edinburgh. He married Agnes Jack in Lanark in 1884. They had two sons, James Lanceley and John George, and Agnes died in 1909.
He then married my grandfather's sister Mary Stuart Burgess in 1912. He died in 1924 at their home, 24 Marchhall Crescent, Edinburgh.
My Aunt Mary survived him, and died in 1968. I remember her very well indeed.
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Thanks so much for replying. Your information fits in with what my mother found out. John was her great uncle, brother of her grandmother Janet Gordon. We have a family photo which includes him and his first wife and their 2 sons in about 1900.
My mother also found that James Gordon (John and Janet's father) was the son of John Gordon and Janet McPherson (married in 1816). John was the son of George Gordon and Janet McRobert who were married in 1782. The Gordon line behind that is unclear but Janet McRobert was the daughter of Alexander McRobert who was the son of John McRobert and Elspet Lamb. John McRobert's parents were another John McRobert and a Margaret Shearer. I think that is as far back as the research went, but I have some more papers to check. I'm not sure how much this is of interest to you, but I'm really pleased to have found a link to my great-great-uncle John and will tell my mother (aged 99), brother and sister about it!
Alison
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Thanks so much for replying. Your information fits in with what my mother found out. John was her great uncle, brother of her grandmother Janet Gordon. We have a family photo which includes him and his first wife and their 2 sons in about 1900.
I'd be interested to see that photo.
I didn't take the line back any further because the Gordons were not blood relations. However my father was named John Gordon after Uncle Jay.
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Sorry I've taken so long to get back. Here is the photo of the Gordons (and McKies) in about 1900.
My great-grandmother Janet McKie is holding the baby (my grandmother Meta). Her brother John is at the back on the right and his wife is in the middle of the row in front of him. I think their sons are the boys in the grey suits.
Alison