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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Census Lookup and Resource Requests => Topic started by: seahall on Friday 17 October 08 12:08 BST (UK)
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Hi All
I do not know if this man will be in Northamptonshire or elsewhere in 1871.
I have been given a lot of help by Dee and Sashar on the Australian board
about Frederick being a resident at Liverpool etc although born in Northamptonshire.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,334774.0.html
Sandy
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Sandy
This appears to be his birth.....in Liverpool!
What makes you think he was born in Northants?
Jun 1860 JONES Frederick Abraham in W Derby ref 8b page 411
Will look for him in 1861 and 71 next.
Carol x
Edit....too many Fred Jones's to be sure which one he is.
Do you know parents or siblings names at all?
There's a 3 month old Frederick A Jones(twin) in 1861 in Everton,which is West Derby district,that could be him.Although the age would be a bit out for a June 1860 birth!
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Sandy, how do you know he was born in Northamptonshire? As Carol says there's a birth index entry in West Derby (which is a suburb of Liverpool).
Carol, just to save you a bit of work, I've found him, I think in the 1871 and 1861 censuses. We were looking at the same time! I'm just not sure if he's the right one because there's a Frederick JONES born 1861 in Wavertree on the 1901 census.
1871 census 26 Ash Grove, Wavertree (which is very near Chester). RG10/3851 folio 118 page 33
Abraham JONES Head mar 36 National Schoolmaster born Rochdale Lancashire
Annie JONES Wife mar 36 born in Liverpool
Mary E. JONES Daur Unm 13 Scholar born in Liverpool
Frederick A. JONES Son 10 Scholar born in Liverpool
Charles Afd (?) JONES Son 7 Scholar born in Liverpool
Stanley W. JONES Son 5 Scholar born in Liverpool
Edith A. JONES Daur 1 born in Liverpool
In 1861 they are in West Derby, Liverpool RG9/2734 folio 30 page 6
Abraham JONES Head Marr 26 National Schoolmaster born in Rochdale Lancashire
Annie JONES Wife Marr 37 born in Liverpool Lancashire
Mary Elizabeth JONES 3 born in Liverpool Lancashire
Frederick Abraham JONES 10 mo born in Liverpool Lancashire
There are birth index entries for Charles A. Jones Jul-sep 1866 West Derby 8b 403, Stanley Wilfred Jones Oct-Dec 1865 West Derby Lancashire 8b 503. There are several possible entries for Mary E. and Edith A. Jones, so I haven’t listed them here.
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Aniseed,
Glad you got in when you did ;D have just found the same 1871 with dad Abraham(which looks good for Fred's middle name!) you saved me having to type it out.
Carol
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I just checked back to get some more details and found your reply! What do you think about the chap who says he was born in Wavertree (rather than Liverpool) in the 1901 census? Is he likely to be the Frederick Abraham Jones we found born in Liverpool and living in Wavertree in 1871?
Also, I’ve just found a Frederick Jones on the 1861 census (RG9/2715 folio 74 page 7) who was born in Liverpool, age 3 months, but who has siblings who were born in Van D Land Hobart Town. This is quite interesting since he already has an Australian connection. His father is William H JONES Head M 32 pensioner born in Anglesea and his mother is Anne Wife M 32 born in Ireland.
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Also, I’ve just found a Frederick Jones on the 1861 census (RG9/2715 folio 74 page 7) who was born in Liverpool, age 3 months, but who has siblings who were born in Van D Land Hobart Town. This is quite interesting since he already has an Australian connection. His father is William H JONES Head M 32 pensioner born in Anglesea and his mother is Anne Wife M 32 born in Ireland.
Yes that was the one I liked the look of originally,where Frederick is a twin,BUT I was concerned that the age didn't stack up to a Jun 1860 birth,and it's a clear 3 months on the image.
So I'd rather go with the 10 mth old one whose dad is called Abraham.
You choose Sandy.........where have you gone :P
Carol x
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Aniseed
I can't see the one you mean in 1901? Can you give me a clue please ;D
There are only 2 born Wavertree and neither are anywhere near 1860?
Are you saying if it's the same chap then it can't be Sandy's one who died age 22 in 1882?
Carol
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I’m sorry, I’m getting brain-ache! I missed out a vital link in the chain. In the 1881 census RG11/3650 folio 8 page 10, there is a Frederick A. Jones living in Toxteth Park Lodger, Mar, 20, bus driver, born in Lancashire Wavertree who is married to Mary A Jones, Wife, Mar, 19, born in Liverpool, with child Henry A. age 3 months born in Liverpool.
Then in 1901 RG13/3432 folio 17 page 26 There is a Frederick A Jones living in Toxteth Park Head M 40 Foreman born in Liverpool who is married to Mary A. Jones wife 38 born in Liverpool, No son Henry, but he'd have been 20 by then and may well have left home. Several other children are there, though.
I'm assuming that the two Freds are the same person. So he can't decide whether he was born in Wavertree (1881) or Liverpool (1901) , or perhaps someone else filled in the census in 1881 and didn't know his place of birth for sure. And yes, I am saying that if this chap is the same one as the son of Abraham and Annie in 1871, he can’t be the same one that Sandy’s looking for. Not sure how we can tell for sure.
Also I’ve just found another Frederick Jones in 1861 RG10/3841 folio 138 page 12 aged 10 born in Liverpool and living in West Derby son of William Jones 33 Jeweller born in Liverpool and Eliza Jones 31 born in Liverpool. I think I need to go and lie down in a darkened room!
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I think I need to go and lie down in a darkened room!
Can I join you 8)
Or on second thoughts have just seen the time and should get the dinner started!
Carol
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Who'd have thought there'd be so many Frederick Joneses born in Liverpool in 1860/1?! :o
But Sandy, it would be helpful to know how certain you are that he was born in Northamptonshire, because if he definitely was, then all the above is irrelevant! There are quite a lot in Northamptonshire, but without a town to go on it's hard to know for sure which one was yours.
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Hi Carol and Aniseed just need to read it all as only just come on. :)
Thank you for all you have found.
I will just look at the headstone again but I think you have the right man. :)
Sandy
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1871 census 26 Ash Grove, Wavertree (which is very near Chester). RG10/3851 folio 118 page 33
Abraham JONES Head mar 36 National Schoolmaster born Rochdale Lancashire
Annie JONES Wife mar 36 born in Liverpool
Mary E. JONES Daur Unm 13 Scholar born in Liverpool
Frederick A. JONES Son 10 Scholar born in Liverpool
Charles Afd (?) JONES Son 7 Scholar born in Liverpool
Stanley W. JONES Son 5 Scholar born in Liverpool
Edith A. JONES Daur 1 born in Liverpool
In 1861 they are in West Derby, Liverpool RG9/2734 folio 30 page 6
Abraham JONES Head Marr 26 National Schoolmaster born in Rochdale Lancashire
Annie JONES Wife Marr 37 born in Liverpool Lancashire
Mary Elizabeth JONES 3 born in Liverpool Lancashire
Frederick Abraham JONES 10 mo born in Liverpool Lancashire
Okay this is the one I wanted.
Sorry for the confussion re: Northamptonshire.
On the headstone it said at the bottom that his father was a School Master
of Lubenham and as it is in a Northamptonshire village where the stone notes
Annie, Edith Annie, Abraham and Frederick A you have both found him :) :) :).
So thank you both.
Sandy
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Would it be possible to work backwards on censuses for father
Abraham and Wife please.
Sandy
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Certainly! I'll get onto it now. Hang on a bit. Back soon! :D
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OK, there's a lot of information to digest here! Brace yourself!
First off, there is a marriage between Abraham JONES and either Ann HENDERSON or Annie MAKINSON Jan-Mar 1857 Liverpool vol 8b page 306. My guess would be Annie Makinson, simply because she’s down as Annie rather than Ann on the censuses.
On the1841census HO107/550 folio 30 page 14 we have:
Borough of Rochdale, township of Castleton
School Lane
Charles JONES 40 Beer Seller
Jane JONES 40
James JONES 20 Woollen Weaver
Susan JONES 15 Spinner
Joseph JONES 10 Woollen ditto (not sure if that refers to spinner or weaver from the next line above)
Edward JONES 5
ABRAHAM JONES 4
Jane JONES 1
Abraham Taylor 30 Woollen Weaver.
They were all born in Lancashire.
On the 1851 census HO107/2244 folio 124 page 23 we have
Butterworth Lordshipside Milnrow Chapelry
Stonepitfield (in the name of the street column)
Mary JONES Head Widow 48 Woollen Spinner born Lancashire Butterworth
Ellen JONES Daur U 29 Dress and Bonnet Maker born Lancashire Butterworth
Mary JONES Daur U 20 Dress and Bonnet Maker born Lancashire Butterworth
ABRAHAM JONES Son U 16 Scholar born Lancashire Butterworth.
NB GenUKI says about Milnrow that it is a village and chapelry in Butterworth township, Rochdale parish Lancashire. Wikipedia says that a Chapelry was a subdivision of an ecclesiastical parish in England which had similar status to a township but had a chapel as a subsidiary place of worship to the church.
I don’t think these are the same families. I thought perhaps that Jane had died and Charles had remarried Mary, there are two deaths for a Jane Jones in Rochdale one in 1841 and one in 1846, and there is a marriage between an Abraham Jones and either Mary Barrow or Mary Rowlands in 1847. But if you look at the children, they don’t overlap at all, apart from Abraham, and that was the name I was using to search, so he would crop up in both automatically.
If you search using Mary Jones born in 1803, you come up with a plethora of Mary Joneses, but none of them are living in Rochdale or nearby. Similarly if you search for Jane Jones born in 1801 there’s nobody living in Rochdale. Of course they could have moved between 1841 and 1851.
I’m stumped, so if someone else would like to have a search, they’d be most welcome to try!
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On to Annie Makinson
In the 1851 census this is the only Ann Makinson who was born in Liverpool who was unmarried (that I could find).
HO107/2182 folio258 page 39
1851 Liverpool, 58 Lonsdale Street
Charles Makinson Head Mar 38 Joiner b. Lancashire Childwall
Elizabeth Makinson Wife mar 40 born Liverpool
ANN MAKINSON Daur U 16 born Liverpool
John Makinson Son 12 Scholar born Toxteth Park
Charles Makinson Son Scholar born Toxteth Park
Elizabeth Jane Makinson Daur 8 Scholar born Toxteth Park
Emma Makinson Daur 6 Scholar born Toxteth Park
Richard Makinson Son 4 born Liverpool
Mary Makinson Daur 11 mos born Liverpool
Ellen Barton Niece U 16 Dess maker’s apprentice born Lancashire Bury.
Going backwards, in 1841 we find the same family
HO107/567 folio 41 page 5
Borough of Liverpool, Township of Toxteth Park, Crown Street
Charles Makinson 28 Joiner born in Lancashire
Elizabeth Makins 30 Dressmaker born in Lancashire
ANNE MAKINSON 6 born in Lancashire
James Makinson 4 born in Lancashire
John Makinson 2 born in Lancashire
Interestingly the Makinsons are living next door to Margret [sic] Jones 60 Charwoman who was born in Lancashire.
I checked in the 1861 census and couldn’t find Ann Makinson born in Liverpool, so by that time she’s either got married or died. I’m much more confident that this is your Annie, than I am about the various Abraham Jones candidates.
Just to check Ann Henderson here are the candidates
1851 HO107/2195 folio 103 page 2
Township of Eccleston , town of St Helens, 6 Garden Street
John Henderson Head Mar 46 Crown Glass Blower born in Newcastle on Tyne Northumberland
Mary Henderson Wife mar 45 at home born in Warrington Lancashire
ANN HENDERSON Daur U 15 at home born in West Derby, Lancashire
John Henderson Son U 12 ap Crown Glass House born in West Derby, Lancashire
Mary Henderson Daur U 10 at home born in West Derby Lancashire
Agnes Henderson Daur 8 scholar born in West Derby Lancashire
Thomas Henry Henderson Son 5 scholar born in West Derby, Lancashire
William Henderson Son 3 scholar born in Yorkshire Hull
Also in 1851 there is
HO107/1629 folio 271 page 5
Parish of St John the Baptist, Town of Margate, Gordon House (which seems to be some sort of school)
ANN HENDERSON Pupil 6 born in Liverpool
Also in 1851 there is
Town of Liverpool, 15 Shaw Brow (?)
Thomas P Cropper Head Mar 26 Coach Body Maker born in Liverpool Lancashire
Various other people including…
ANN HENDERSON Visitor U 10 Scholar born in Liverpool, Lancashire
Also in 1851 we have
HO107/2025 folio 119 page 8
Parish of West Bromwich Spon Lane Wakmans Building (?)
Robert Henderson Head Mar 37 Glass Maker born in Sunderland, Durham
Ellen Henderson Wife Mar 35 born in Newcastle Northumberland
John Henderson Son 11 Scholar born in Liverpool, Lancashire
ANN HENDERSON Daur 8 Scholar born in Liverpool, Lancashire
David Henderson Son 4 Scholar born in Liverpool Lancashire
Ellen Henderson Daur 3 born in St Helens Lancashire
Edward Henderson Son 1 born in West Bromwich, Staffordshire
That’s all the Ann Hendersons that I can see that were born within about 5 years of 1835 in Liverpool.
Hope this helps. Other people are welcome to check and expand on what I’ve done!
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Thank you again Aniseed for all the information you have noted
re: Frederick's parents.
Your assistance and considerable time is greatly appreciated. :)
Sandy
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I'm very glad to be able to help! I'm not quite sure how you're going to work out which of those families is yours, though. Maybe someone else can suggest what you could do next. I'd really love to know what you do find out in the end. Please will you post anything here, even if it's a long time before you find out? I'm always interested to hear how the story progresses.
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Yes well done Aniseed.
I can't concentrate enough at the mo to get my head round all this info!
I have all my hubby's family coming for lunch tomorrow to see our new grandson. I've been autumn cleaning (like spring cleaning ,only different ;D)
like a dervish,and cooking and shopping like mad.
Bet they don't even notice(Lizdb said they'll be so busy looking at the baby they won't notice) if I've hoovered or not!
Carol
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I guess he's the little chap in your photo. Going from that I think Lizdb's absolutely right. He looks like a real sweetie! I must say by the time I finished all that yesterday I felt like I'd been hit on the head! I think I've found all the likely possibles, but I might have missed one or two if anyone else does have the opportunity to check.
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Hi Carol
Made it to your side of the County today.
I felt of colour most of yesterday and at 10.00 p.m. our Son rang to say that
his darling cat Scratch aged 18 months had been missing for over 24 hours.
The Vet's rang him just before he rang me to say that he had been brought
in and that they had located my Son and Family by his micro-chip.
He has a fractured jaw and prodding eye bless him so can't wait for the next
phone call to say he has pulled through the operation.
Hope all goes well tomorrow.
Sandy
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Sandy, what a shock for your son and you. :o At least he's been found. I've got my fingers crossed for you that he'll make a good recovery.
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Ouch that sounds painful Sandy,hope he makes a full recovery.
What a good job they have him microchipped.
Maybe my son should get Adam done(the baby!!!) LOL
We drove past the station today on the way to Peter Crisp's and wondered if you'd made it across.Hope you had a good day?
Carol
PS hope you're feeling better now too. :-*
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Thanks Aniseed.
Our fingers are crossed too.
Our own Darling Cat Lizzie (aged 22) was run over and died last year.
We were just thinking of having a new kitten my son had found for us
but it has made us re-think now.
Sandy
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Hi again Carol
I went to the Warehouse for card bits 1st.
We stayed for about 3 hours but then I wanted to leave in case our son
had phoned.
We don't use moblies much in case the car breaks down and you have to
spend a bomb telling the breakdown service where you are. :)
Scrimnet's mob was a bit unruly seeing the man himself wasn't there. :)
Sandy