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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: cispt2 on Saturday 25 October 08 01:07 BST (UK)
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Interested to hear of anyone with connections/information on the Alleyne family of Golden, Tipp. One family came to Australian in the 1850's - Samuel Hyde Alleyne, born abt 1803, his wife and all children born in Golden.
Also interested if anyone knows anything of this family's connection to the Hyde family of Castle Hyde.
cheers
matt
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From Lewis, 1837:
Alleyne, Samuel, Esq., Tipperary
Alleyne, William, Esq., Tipperary
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Hi Matt,
It's a while since you posted but I have a headstone photo for a
Thomas Alleyne and also his daughter Mary Anne Hyde Alleyne buried in St George's Church of Ireland cemetery Mitchelstown Co Cork.
It seems to be a very old headstone Thomas' date of death looks like 1879 & Mary Anne June 2 1917 - it is difficult to read the dates.
Send me a Pm with your email address and I can send you a few photos of the church , cemetery and headstone if you like.
Mary
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Hi Mary,
That's amazing - I really am working hard to understand this family. This headstone could be very useful. You can email me at cispt2 at gmail dot com.
How did you find my post?
cheers,
matt
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Hi Matt
My interest is in the Samuel/Mary ALLEYNE side of the family who emigrated to Australia in 1850. You probably know as much as I do on this Oz aspect. However, if not, I do have copies of all immigration records if you would like to send me a PM.
Samuel's father was noted as William who together with Samuel is mentioned by wizard1. Father and son perhaps?
Les
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Thanks Les,
Yes I'm interested too in Samuel and co. I have a photo of Samuel's headstone (with his son Samuel) here:
http://thehistoryofmatt.blogspot.com/2009/10/ive-previously-written-on-my-ancestor.html
Also I made an entry on Samuel and Mary's children (well, what i know of them):
http://thehistoryofmatt.blogspot.com/2009/10/headstone-of-william-alleyn-and-family.html
I just got a copy of Samuel's will. It's a little confusing - do you have a copy? If no I can post one to you.
cheers,
matt
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Thanks Matt for that info. You have certainly done the hard yards on this family.
Your address suggested a branch that had emigrated to the US, how wrong was I!
My further interest lies in the Elizabeth=Michael Mcgrath line. I have attributed 11 children to them but please don't ask me to prove it.
I will send you a PM with my email address as I would like to see a copy of Samuel's will.
Cheers, Les
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Thanks Les,
Am e-mailing you now. Elizabeth is interesting because she came separate to the rest of the family.
cheers,
matt
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Mary,
In the 1901 Ireland census I found, living at Kingston Square (Mitchelstown, Cork):
Hyde Alleyne, Mary Anne, 75, Female, Church of Ireland
cheers,
matt
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Interested to hear of anyone with connections/information on the Alleyne family of Golden, Tipp. One family came to Australian in the 1850's - Samuel Hyde Alleyne, born abt 1803, his wife and all children born in Golden.
Also interested if anyone knows anything of this family's connection to the Hyde family of Castle Hyde.
cheers
matt
Is it the marriage of Mary Hyde and John Alleyne in 1768 you're looking for?
Dara.
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Hi,
YES any information on that would be immensely useful. I'm aware of a marriage, but not any details. Wow, this is quite exciting. You can also email me at cispt2 at gmail dot com
I've been working on an Alleyne family tree based on land titles, newspaper announcements (no church records sadly). Would be happy to share it with you.
cheers,
matt
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Hi Dara -- yes that is the marriage I'm looking for. Do you have any details? What was your source?
Cheers,
Matt
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Glad to see such interest in this family of Alleynes. My own interest of them is marginal only because the Ellen Scully who married Samuel Alleyne in 1800 was one of my mother's Scully family and i did some research on them.
Briefly the first Alleyne in Golden appears to be the John Alleyne whose death is noticed in the Limerick Chronicle of 1783 :
p.o. 16 Jan. in his 80th year John Alleyne Esq. of Golden.
The family seem to have been middle-men rather than landowners but on a large scale and wealthy as shown by the marriage settlements of their daughters. More later as I am running out of space
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Hi Anthony
I’m also interested in the Alleyne family. My first contact with Matt (cispt2) can be seen at post #4 on this thread. Following that contact we exchanged information by personal message and email some time ago.
Some time ago I alerted Matt to your posting by email but now I see that he hasn’t responded. Perhaps a change of email address on his part?
Sorry for not replying earlier myself but very busy with preparing house for sale, however I would be very interested in learning more about your research, if that is ok with you.
We are not able to post email addresses on RootsChat, however personal messages can be exchanged once 3 postings have been completed.
Cheers, Les
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Hi, Les. Just to throw something into the Alleyne pot, here's a few ewspaper notices.
Limerick Evening Post Wed. 28 Feb. 1816 Married bt the Rev. W.E. Lloyd at Golden Church James Fogarty Esq. Jun. of Cabra Castle to Miss Alleyne, au. of the late John Alleyne Esq. of Tipperary, (Her name was Mary Anne)
S. R. Thurs 16 Feb. 1826 at the Inn of Tipperary on Sat. Samuel Richard Alleyne Esq. only son of the late Samuel Aleyne Esq. 0f Golden and formerly a Capt. in H.M. 11th Regt. of Foot. He married Jane Quirk at Braddon IOM on 12 Sept. 1812 (This is the Ungrateful Son of the will).
Samuel Alleyne had died in Dublin on 9 Feb. 1815.
S.R. On 23 Sept. 1845 Richard Edward Alleyne Esq. to Catherine Geddes at Braddon IOM
Marriage License Bonds'
1766 Samuel Alleyne of Golden to Charity Pennefather
24 June 1796 Samuel Alleyne of Golden to Belinda Johnston widow of Montmellick.
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Hi Anthony
May I enquire where you obtained the newspaper information?
My Samuel William Hyde Alleyne described himself as a shepherd on the Australian Immigration Boards record of 1850, born in Golden Tipperary about 1803, parents William and Ellen (both deceased).
Information gleaned since, suggests William’s parents were John Alleyne and Mary Hyde (married about 1768), although this hasn’t been confirmed.
I’m wondering if the John Alleyne (mentioned at #14) as only having one son (Samuel Richard) might not be a brother or cousin to my William.
Have you any thoughts on this?
Cheers, Les
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Les, Newspaper cuttings are to be found in 1. Rosemary ffolliott Biographicl Notices 1758-1827 and 2. O'Kief Coise Mange (15 Vols) The first is in typescript and the second is an early example of desktop publishing (1950's). Cork City Library has both.
I did a lot of research in the Alleyne deeds in the Registry in Dublin. They show clearly that Samuel who m. Charity Pennefather in 1765 and John who m. Mary Hyde in 1768 were brothers. In a lease dated 14 April 1779 Walter Atkins to John Alleyne 500 acres IPM at Coolprevane for 3 lives John lists his 3 young sons, Samuel, John and William.
Samuel m. Ellen Scully in 1800 and d. in 1841. They had three children, John. who inherited Coolprevane, William and Ellen. I know nothing about what happend to the other sons, John and William. I just wish the family had a wider choice of names. Anthony
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Anthony, thank you so very much for this information. You are so right about the narrow choice of names as I find it confusing.
Am I right in assuming that the John who married Mary Hyde was the John who signed the 1779 lease and that Samuel who married Ellen Scully was a son of this John?
Cheers, Les
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Les, I think a copy of the Hyde/Alleyne marriage settlement would be most useful here. I have the Pennefather/Alleyne one so I guess it should be in the Registry. There's a Hyde/Alleyne deed of 1774 between the Hydes and John Alleyne of Coolprovane so this suggests strongly that the John of the 1779 deed is the John who married Mary Hyde. I have the Scully/Alleyne Marriage Settlement of 1800 and there is no doubt that this Samuel was the son of John of Coolprvane. Regards, Anthony
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Anthony, thank you. You have certainly cleared up that confusion (in my mind).
I wish I could just duck down to the Dublin Registry but alas it’s just a bit too far, somewhat! One day I hope to visit Ireland but sometimes I fear I may have left my run too late.
I have sent you a Personal Message just prior to this posting. Please let me know if you didn’t receive same.
Regards, les
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Anthony, just another thought, is Coolprvane the name of an estate, as it doesn't appear as a place/area/town etc on Google?
Cheers, Les
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Les, Coolprevane was probably a townland in the 18th century but seems to have vanished from the maps since (like hundreds of others). However, there is no doubt that it remained in Alleyne hands until 1872 when it was sold in the Encumbered Estates Court. It was described as "lands of Cooleprivane (771 acres) in the Barony of Iffa and Offa the property of Michael Duffy and William Henry Alleyne, a minor, held on a lease from Walter Atkin to John Allyn dated 1779. The lease was last renewed in 1842, Gertrude Atkin to Ellen Alleyn.
Samuel must have been the last of the three lives, Samuel, John and William. Samuel had conveyed the estate to his son John in 1833. Ellen, widow of Samuel, remarried James Keating of Garranlea soon after his death and in 1846 assigned the estate to Samuel (her nephew, son of her brother John) "now a student at Carlow College". This Samuel got into all sorts of financial trouble
about 1865 and departed for the States, no doubt with he bailiffs hot on his tail. The Duffy mentioned was a solicitor acting as a receiver in the bankruptcy and William Henry Alleyne was son of Samuel. The 771 statute acres mentioned is the same as the 500 Irish acres mentioned in the original lease. There are 76 townlands in Tipperary starting with Cool on an up-to-date list. Coolprevane must be in the Golden area as it is in the same barony.
Regards, Anthony
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from Place Database of Ireland (www.logainm.ie)
Townland: Coolapreavan / Cúil an Phréamháin
alternate spellings : Coolefrevane, Cooleprevane, Coolaprivaun etc
see : link (http://www.logainm.ie/Viewer.aspx?text=Coolaprevan&streets=yes)
Townland Database http://www.thecore.com/seanruad
Townland : Coolaprevan
Barony : 772
Civil Parish : Clogheen
Barony : Iffa and Offa West
Poor Law Union
County : Tipperary South Riding
OSI Map : link (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,589363,611455,6,7)
marked as Coolapreavan on map. Select the Historic 6" option for the 1st edition c1840 map
Shane
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Thank you Anthony for that wonderful explanation on lease matters pertaining to the Alleynes and thanks to Shane for the map of Coolaprevan. I'm sure Anthony will also appreciate the link.
I notevthat the townland is in County Tipperary and in the Barony of Iffa & Offa West and wondered if it is near Golden?
Please excuse me for my ignorance of Irish geography.
Les
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The townland of Coolaprevan is located in south west County Tipperary, and about 5km west of the town of Ballyporeen - see : link (http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Coolaprivane,+Ireland&daddr=Ballyporeen,+Ireland&hl=en&sll=52.800155,-7.237275&sspn=1.697117,3.109131&geocode=Fe1lHQMdXoyD_ynvzrwUcVBDSDGQ7uo3qccABQ%3BFQSeHQMd_2SE_ylloOZO6U9DSDGA3zGXqccACg&vpsrc=0&mra=ls&t=m&z=13) (google map)
The town of Golden is about 40km north of Ballyporeen and near to the town of Cashel. See - link (http://maps.google.ie/maps?saddr=Ballyporeen&daddr=Golden,+Tipperary&hl=en&ll=52.392363,-7.993927&spn=0.428241,0.777283&sll=52.33192,-8.336035&sspn=0.428827,0.777283&geocode=FQSeHQMd_2SE_ylloOZO6U9DSDGA3zGXqccACg%3BFa0PIQMdijiG_ynV7d0y7bVcSDGgBDKXqccACg&vpsrc=0&mra=ls&t=m&z=10) (google map)
Shane
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Hello, Les and Shane, good work there. There are over 40,000 townlands in Ireland, many of them with alternative spellings. so a source of endless confusion.
That wiil was fascinating. Wouldn't have done much good to anyone, as the Castlehyde estate of 6000 acres was sold in the Encumbered Estates Court in 1852 for about £18000, a steal for a syndicate of cute Cork businessmen.
A word about the scial standing of the Alleynes and Hydes.
Both were Protestant Ascendancy famiilies, the Hydes getting their estate late 16th century ( Land forfeited from the Irish rebels following the Desmond Rebellion) and the Alleynes in the 17th century in the Cromwellian Sattlement. They must have been Adventurers. Cromwell financed his wars in Ireland by selling land he expected to take from the Irish in the London market.
The Scullys were rich enough to ensure that if any of their daughters married into a Protestant family the chilren must be brought up as Catholics. Hence the Catholic branch ex Samuel Alleyne and Ellen Scully. But "Romish Ch." for William? Puzzle there. More later. Anthony
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A short history of Cooprevane estate. John Alleyne said to be "of Coolprebane" when he married Mary Hyde in 1768. He was living there in 1774 (see Mortgage of Templenoe). Renewed lease from Head Landlord (Atkins) 1779. Left estate (500 acres Irish = 772 statute) to son Samuel who never actually lived there. He was an attorney with his office in Tipperary town. Conveyed estate to son John 1833 at rent of £180 Irish currency. Lease renewed 1841 on death of Samuel, last of 3 lives by Ellen Alleyne, who conveyed it to nephew Samuel, son of her brother William, just in time for the Famine disaster. By 1860 Samuel was in serious financial trouble. In October 1860 he married Margaret Cowen, marriage settlement pledged Coolprevane to the executors of Settlement. In 1865 Margaret's father Joseph was suing him for non-performance, Samuel went to the US and enlisted in the 33rd Regt. Back in Dubln by 1870 he was being sued by Philip Russell, farmer of Coolprevane, next move to France. Estate sold 1872 in Encumbered Estates Court. Census of 1901 shows him in Waterford, occupation "Weighmaster". Census of 1911 his son Samuel aged 28 occupation "garden Labourer". Sad story !
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Hi
Have just found your discussions regarding the Alleyne family.
I am descended from Samuel Richard Alleyne and knew of his marriage to Jane Quirk in the Isle of Man. I now see that he was born in Ireland the son of Samuel Alleyne and Charity Pennefather so thank you for that.
Do you have any BDM details or further information on ancestors of Samuel
Samuel Richard's son Richard Edward was born in the Isle of Man and moved to Liverpool. Further details can be found on my web site www.hubber.me.uk
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Re ancestors of Samuel Alleyne who married Charity Pennefather in 1763.
Limerick Chronicle 1783 p.o. 16 Jan. Died in 80th year John Alleyne Esq. of Golden. So John was born 1704. Alleynes war English Protestant Planter family brought to Ireland mid 17th cent. John was father of Samuel who married Charity Pennefather o Newpark in 1763. The Alleyne/Pennefather marrige settlemen contains a grat deal of information on the Alleyne property in Tipperary. The no. is 223-618-150481/2 if anyone would like to order a photostat copy from thr Registry of Deeds in Dublin. Samuel had one son Samuel Richard and 2 daus. He died 1815 leaving £200 to his "ungrateful son". Samuel Richard Alleyne (Southern Reg. Thurs 16 Feb 1821) At the Inn of Tipperary on Sat. Samuel Richard Alleyne of Golden only son of late Alleyne Esq. of Golden and formerly a Captain in H.M. 11 Regt. of Foot. He had m. twice. In 1801 to Annabel Childe, div. 1805 then 1812 to Jane Quir in Braddon IOM. The rest you know.
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Anthony, many thanks for this.
I do have a few questions if you could help further.
You mention that Samuel married Charity in 1763. In your earlier post of 20 October you say 1765. I assume that one is a typo. Perhaps you could clarify.
I am intrigued by:- "He died 1815 leaving £200 to his "ungrateful son". Samuel Richard Alleyne (Southern Reg. Thurs 16 Feb 1821) At the Inn of Tipperary on Sat. Samuel Richard Alleyne of Golden".
Can you tell me any more and what is Southern Reg and can you clarify the significance of the date of 1821.
Many thanks
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Alleyne/Pennefather marriage definitely 1763. John Alleyne and son Samuel are 2 of the 7 parties to it.
Earliest ref. I can find to John Sen. is a deed dated April 1751 which mentions John (eldest son who m. Mary Hyde 1768) Samuel (2nd. son) and John Wise of Limerick, his nephew.
Samuel's will was dated early 1815.
Southern Register was a newspaper which carried a death notice for Samuel Richard in 1826 (issue 26 Feb. 1826)
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Thanks for this Anthony, you have been a great help.
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I have Alleyne ancestors from Golden but know little about them at present as I have only just started researching the family. Alleyne is used as a middle name with some of my ancestors who were born or lived in Golden.
John Scott b.1769 married Sophia Ryan b.1777 in 1798. A distant Ryan cousin told me that Sophia's grandmother was an Alleyne from Castle Park, Golden and that some of the Ryans are buried near the Alleyne family in the Golden COI churchyard. This Ryan family were Church of Ireland whereas most Ryans are Catholic.
I actually visited the Golden COI churchyard in 2004 and remember seeing Alleyne graves but didn't know they were relatives at the time so took no photos or notes.
If anyone knows more about the Alleyne/Ryan/Scott connection please let me know.
As I find out more I will post here.
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Someone mentioned that the Alleynes may have been Cromwellian Adventurers. I consulted Prendergast's "Cromwellian Settlement of Ireland" and could find no mention of the name as either soldiers or adventurers. There were some Allen/Allenn listed though.
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I have finally located a copy of a private unpublished family history by a distant cousin that has information on the Alleynes I am related to. This was compiled before 1914, in part using information from records now destroyed in the Four Courts fire of 1922.
Daniel Ryan of Carrick on Suir b. 1736 married Ellinor youngest daughter of Samuel Alleyne of Goldenbridge whose mother was nee Pennefather and d. 1782 (buried at Ballintemple). She married 2nd 1764 Peter Parker, 2nd Regiment of Horse.
Children:
Mary
Francis
Margaret
Thomas
John of Golden m. Elizabeth Carroll of Kilkee
William of Clonmel
Henry of Golden m. 1792 his cousin Mary Ryan, daughter of Patrick Ryan of Ballintemple
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continued from my previous post....
John Ryan of Golden married Elizabeth Carroll
Children:
Nicholas of Golden
Henry of Dublin and Golden b. 1769 d. 1827
Mary m. 1789 Cornelius Ryan
Sophia m. 1798 John Scott
Elinor married her cousin William Alleyne of Golden (son of J. Alleyne of Golden) and d. 1840 leaving issue
Elizabeth
Francis John of Golden m. 1812 Maria Norwood
Thomas of Golden b.1784
Patrick
William of Clogheen
That's all I have at present.
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Hi Robertscott
I have Alleyne ancestors and was interested to see your post.
You say that Ellinor youngest daughter of Samuel Alleyne and nee Pennefather married Daniel Ryan b. 1736 and d. 1782
As it appears from the post by Anthony M J that the Alleyne/Pennefather marriage was "definitely 1763" so if Ellenor was the youngest daughter it appears that she would have been incredibly young when she married if all of the dates are correct.
Do you have a date for the marriage?
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Hub1525, You may have misread my Post or else I have misunderstood you. Samuel Alleyne's mother was a Pennefather, not his wife. Also, I think it is Ellinor Alleyne who died in 1782 and who is buried at Ballintemple.
Also, because these families recycled names, you can get the same names appearing in every generation. Intermarriage between the same families, including cousins, was quite common.
I don't have a marriage date.
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Lucy Ryan (sister of Daniel Ryan above) married J. Alleyne of Golden
Children:
Helen Alleyne
Samuel Alleyne
William Alleyne married his cousin Ellinor, daughter of John Ryan and had children.
Sorry, I have no dates.
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Some confusion over the Alleyne/Pennefather Marriage. Marriage articles dated 19 Feb. 1763, MLB index also gives 1763 as the year. Son was Samuel Richard, only 2 daus. that know of,Charity who m. Michael Greene,1790 and S of Parfone Co. Meath in 1794. Never came across any Elinor but date 1782 for death of Pennefather mother seems right. Samuel m. again in 1796 to Belinda Johnston, a widow. Came across a couple of Alleyne/Ryan deeds in the Registry dated 1761 and 1769.
Limerick Evening Post,Wed. 28 Feb. 1816 M. by the rev. W.E, Lloyd at Golden Church, James Fogarty Esq. Jun. of Cabra Castle to Miss Alleyne dau. of the late John Alkeyne Esq. of Golden. (Her name was Mary Anne, the Miss implies she wasa eldest Dau.)
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We might be talking about two different Alleyne/Pennefather marriages or with Ellinor being the youngest daughter she might not have featured in earlier records. Perhaps the Alleyne/Ryan deeds might shed a bit more light. How do I obtain copies of the deeds?
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Sorry, can't find any trace of another Alleyne/Pennefather marriagge. As a rule these gentry families were careful to register their marriage settlements. I see a William Ryan of Ballymackeogh (big Tipp. landowners, your Ryans I'm sure) m. Anne Pennefather in 1814. If you want photostats of the original Alleyne/Ryan deeds I mentioned here's what you must do. E-mail rodquery "at" prai.ie, put Copy Memorial - Att. Philomena Brant in Subject Box and tell her you want copies of 292-362-190908 dated 16 july 1769 and 367-71-245901 dated 10 jan.1785. These are property deeds so probably not of much genealogical interest.The Alleyne/Pennefather marriage articles are voluminous and take up 2 documents. Much info. there Nos. are 223-618-150481 and 150482.
They charge 20 euros for each copy (inc. postage) so have your credit card handy.
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Thanks Anthony for the information on the Alleyne/Ryan deeds. I'll definitely chase them up but I have 3 trips planned in the next 3 months so it will have to wait until they are out of the way and I have some spare cash.
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Stories of lost estates and crooked solicitors always have a certain charm. I refer of course to the Samuel Alleyne family of Waterford. Here are such facts as I have been able to discover.
The story begins with the lease of 500 acres Irish Plantation Measure at Coolprevane by Walter Atkins to John Alleyne. The lease was dated 14 April 1779 and was for a period of three lives of Samuel and William AlleyneAlleyne, John Alleyne. The estate passed to John's son Samuel. He was the last of the 3 lives when he died in 1841. His widow Ellen (Scully) Alleyne renewed the lease with Gertrude Atkins in 1842 and Ellen in 1846 assigned the estate to her nephew Samuel William who in 1860 was married to Honoria Cowan. Now the plot thickens. In 1864 a Marriage Settlement was drawn up, Apparently at the insistence of Joseph Henry Cowen Hoichnoria's father, by whch Samuel was to get £2000 Fortune (i.e. Dowry) from the Cowen family and the lands of Coolprevane were to be handed over to trustees to guarantee Honoria's future. The trustees were Walter Richard Butler of Clondalkin and Edward Michael Duffy of Hardwick St. Dublin, Solicitor.
In Feb. 1865 Cowen Sen. sued Samuel in the Court of Common Pleas for -noncompliance with the terms of the settlement. Samuel lost and headed for the U.S. as we know.
In April1872 the lands of Coolprevane in the Barony of Iffa and Offa were offered for sale in the Encumbered Estates Court, the vendor being, not Samuel as you might expect, but Edward Michael Duffy, one of the trustees of the Marriage Settlement, and William Henry Alleyne, a minor (eldest son of Samuel's first marriage). The purchasers were the Russells, former tenants.
Well, that's the story. Whether Duffy was really a crook or simply acting in the best interests of his client (Cowen) must be for Samuel's descendants to decide
.
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Hi - just wondering if anyone is following this still. I'm not sure if it is the same family but possibly ...
my Alleynes are from Tipperary (not Golden as far as I know but perhaps fortunes changed being the youngest son). They all married RC's but I haven't been able to find their baptisms so perhaps they are COI. My family that I know of consist of siblings Paul, John and Katherine - they have children William, John, Frances, Ellen. Paul has his father as William and mother Quirk - there seems to be a bit of overlap here maybe .. Paul emigrated to South Australia in the 1850's and ended up in Melbourne. ::)