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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: lizzyann on Monday 10 November 08 17:50 GMT (UK)

Title: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Monday 10 November 08 17:50 GMT (UK)
 
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Please can anyone help?   My grannies name is: Esther Christina Spencer she was born 7th June 1888  her husband was William Spooner.

My grannies parents were Spanish and Italian but I have no names for them, all I no is that her father was a Travelling Spanish Gypsy.

Please can anyone help?  Thank you  :)
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: AnneMc on Monday 10 November 08 18:36 GMT (UK)
Hi There Lizzyann

The first thing I would do is get the marriage record for Christina as it will have her father's name listed.  Was Christina born in England. If so, I would also get her birth certificate as it would have both father and mothers name listed along with  mothers maiden name.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers
Anne
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Monday 10 November 08 18:54 GMT (UK)
Thank you so much, do you no whre I can get the birth certificate, and how much it would be Thank you once again Lizzyann
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 11 November 08 18:06 GMT (UK)
Hi

I wonder if this is her birth registration with the surname mistranscribed;

Esther Christina Spender  :-\
sept q  1888  
 Wandsworth, Greater London, London, Surrey 
Vol 1d page 545

umm this tallies

marriage;
Esther Christina Spender = William Henry Spooner
sept q 1908 
 Lambeth  Greater London, London, Surrey 
Vol 1d  pg 650

seems that her surname was SpenDer

deb :)

will look further


Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: jamajo on Tuesday 11 November 08 18:28 GMT (UK)

 Hi and welcome to Rootschat :)

 Could this be your family, name spelt Spender ???

   1891   RG12 / 427 / 16 / 26

Frederick Spender, head, widower, age 38, naturalized british subject Haine, occ gen lab
Samuel, son, age 17, b Lambeth, Surrey, occ engine cleaner
Alfred, son, age 12, b Lambeth
Annie,dau,age 15, b Lambeth
Frank, son, age 8, b Battersea
Sarah, dau, age 6, b Battersea
Charles, son, age 4, b Battersea
Ester, dau, age 2 b Battersea

Address 23 Sterndale Road, Battersea

                  Sue
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 11 November 08 18:36 GMT (UK)
there is this interesting family in 1901

1901
Lambeth London
Frederick Spender head mar 47 smith & fitter b SPAIN (natural gr British subject ..maybe naturalised?)
Elizabeth wife 27 b London, lambeth
Charles son 14 port errand boy b Battersea
Esther E dau 12 b battersea  wrong middle initial  :-\ I can't find a birth for an Esther E in 1888/9
Mabel dau 10 months b Clapham

in 1891
they are mistranscribed as SPONDER
Battersea
Frederick Spender head widr gen lab 38 b naturalised British Subject
Samuel son 17 b Lambeth
Alfred son 12         "
Annie dau 15        "
Frank son 8 b Battersea
Sarah dau 6      "
Charles son 4  "
ESTHER dau 2    "

Only order her birth cert and/or her marriage cert would confirm parents names.

deb :)

hi Sue :) just seen your post ...SNAP!!! ;D
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 11 November 08 18:43 GMT (UK)
umm in prior censues he's not from Spain ??

do you see him Sue?

deb
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 11 November 08 18:49 GMT (UK)
Births

George W Spooner
Dec q 1911 
Mother's Maiden Name: Spender 
Islington Greater London, London, Middlesex 
Vol 1b  p 515

Lawrence H A Spooner
june q  1916 
Mother's Maiden Name: Spender 
Holborn  London, Middlesex 
Vol1b  p 990

Mabel E Spooner
june q  1913 
Mother's Maiden Name: Spender 
Lambeth   Greater London, London, Surrey 
Vol 1d  p 496

can't find any Spooner children with mother's maiden name SPENCER.

deb :)

Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: jamajo on Tuesday 11 November 08 18:57 GMT (UK)

 Deb... What about this one in 1881?   What do you think/

    RG11 / 606 / 105 / 39

 Lizzyanne its free to view 1881 ;D ;D

               Sue 

 Added...... You must have seen this already Deb :)
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Tuesday 11 November 08 19:07 GMT (UK)
Hi! There Deb,  yes I'm pretty sure her name was Spender as well
it's definately Lambeth London Thanks. Lizzy
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 11 November 08 19:09 GMT (UK)
Hi sue

yes I did see it ...everything adds up except Fred's POB ...with him stating Paddington in 1881 you can trace him back to 1861 with his parents, neither of whom are foreigners. I wonder if he was born Spain but his parents registered him in London.

I am not sure how these things worked then ...but if he was born to British parents why would he have to be naturalised ?? Doesn't make sense.

deb

hi Lizzie ...welcome :) Hope you have fun here! Do you have any other info for us? Deb
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Tuesday 11 November 08 19:13 GMT (UK)
Hi! all and thanks for helping my dad was Laurance Henry Spooner

My grannie is my dad's mum I definately sure her name is Spender not Spencer, my mum think she might have been adopted at one stage but my grannie allways said her parents were spanish and Italian.   

But they do come from Greater Lambeth London, Sue might have the right family.   Lambeth and Battersea rings a bell.
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Tuesday 11 November 08 19:17 GMT (UK)
Also my grannies dad was born in Spain and came back to this Country,  my mum sais he was a Steeple Jack but had a bad accident and had to be trained for something else, hope this all helps..

Thanks once again for helping everyone
Lizzyann
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Tuesday 11 November 08 19:24 GMT (UK)
Hope this one helps my 4th generation cousin sent this to me:

William Henry Spooner married Esther Christina Spender

1908 3rd quarter Lambeth 1d650   what ever that means.

Lizzyann

OH! Also I think my father had a brother as well who died very young.   But don't no any names.  My father's sisters' were Mable, Violet, Annie, Winnie, and of course my dad Laurance.
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 11 November 08 19:28 GMT (UK)
Hi

okay in 1881 Fred is married to Emily and has kids . Going by their eldeast son, Frederick being born in 1870 Chelsea ...we find a Fredeick Spender b Trowbridge with wife Ann, b Chelsea and son frederick, in 1871.

so is Fred born Wiltshire/Paddington or Spain ?

is Emily and Ann one and the same person ??... both b Chelsea circa 1850/1


ooooooooooooooooooooo lOOK

MARRIAGE
Frederick Spender =  Emily Ann Noseda
SEPT Q 1870  
Chelsea, Greater London, London, Middlesex  
Vol 1a  P 383  

So she used both names  ;D ;D

deb
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Tuesday 11 November 08 19:30 GMT (UK)
Yeah, having great fun on here,  it's so confusing though but great fun.

Lizzyann
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 11 November 08 19:32 GMT (UK)
Hope this one helps my 4th generation cousin sent this to me:

William Henry Spooner married Esther Christina Spender

1908 3rd quarter Lambeth 1d650   what ever that means.

Lizzyann

OH! Also I think my father had a brother as well who died very young.   But don't no any names.  My father's sisters' were Mable, Violet, Annie, Winnie, and of course my dad Laurance.

hi Lizzie ... that is their marriage details ...
marriage;
Esther Christina Spender = William Henry Spooner
sept q 1908  
 Lambeth  Greater London, London, Surrey  
Vol 1d  pg 650

they married in the sept quater of 1908 ...the vol and page number is what you used to order the certificate which would give you all details including their father's names and occupations

deb :)

Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 11 November 08 19:35 GMT (UK)
Births

George W Spooner
Dec q 1911 
Mother's Maiden Name: Spender 
Islington Greater London, London, Middlesex 
Vol 1b  p 515


Lawrence H A Spooner
june q  1916 
Mother's Maiden Name: Spender 
Holborn  London, Middlesex 
Vol1b  p 990

Mabel E Spooner
june q  1913 
Mother's Maiden Name: Spender 
Lambeth   Greater London, London, Surrey 
Vol 1d  p 496


it seems that George may be the brother who died young;

death
George W Spooner
b abt 1812
diedmar q 1812  George W Spooner
Paddington  London, Middlesex
Vol 1a p 10
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Tuesday 11 November 08 19:44 GMT (UK)
That could well be him.
 Great, do you no the name of Esther Christina Spender's parents?  please.

Thanks Lizzyann
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Tuesday 11 November 08 19:45 GMT (UK)
Do you no where I could get the birth certificate

How much would they cost?

Thanks Lizzyann :)
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 11 November 08 19:52 GMT (UK)
it seems that Esther Christina's parents were Frederick Spender and Emily Ann Noseda as per the censuses and the marriage;



Frederick Spender =  Emily Ann Noseda
SEPT Q 1870 
Chelsea, Greater London, London, Middlesex 
Vol 1a  P 383 
 

you can order her birth cert here ..using the volume and reference numbers
Esther Christina Spender 
sept q  1888   
 Wandsworth, Greater London, London, Surrey 
Vol 1d page 545

https://www.ancestryshop.co.uk/GRO/birth_certificate.php

hope this helps ...I think it costs 7 pounds (sorry dopn't have a pound sign here only $  ;D)
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Tuesday 11 November 08 20:00 GMT (UK)
 :)    that's ok thanks what part of America do you come from.

I have 3 cousins out there somewhere. I visited them 21years ago lol they lived in Florida then.

Lizzyann
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Tuesday 11 November 08 20:04 GMT (UK)

Getting excited now lol,  just seen Frederick Spender and Emily Ann Noseda  and Noseda is Spanish.

That is definately her parents I'm pretty sure.  I will ask a lady I no on Genes Reunited I'm sure she can find them for me.

Thanks ever so much  :)
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 11 November 08 20:22 GMT (UK)
Hi Lizzyann

I am in North Carolina but was born in Devon ;D

Please keep us posted re; Fred Spender and family  :)

deb
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Tuesday 11 November 08 20:41 GMT (UK)
Can you please tell me how you register on here or the page link please deb, I forgotton how I did it only my friend would like to join here as well.

Thanks Lizzyann
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 11 November 08 21:01 GMT (UK)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=register

I think this should help  ;D

deb

added.. errr don't think it does ... Google Rootschat ...then go to register ..at the top left side of page

Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Tuesday 11 November 08 21:07 GMT (UK)
Deb have you got an email I have a lot on Emily Nosdea

Lizzy ann
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Wednesday 12 November 08 12:53 GMT (UK)
Hiere is some more on Frederick Spender Deb,
Frederick Spender Head Male age 28  Paddington Middlesex Eng Labourer
Emily Spender Wife Female age 29 Chelsea Middlesex.
Frederick Spender Son   age 10 Chelsea Middlesex a Scholar
Samuel Spender Son age 7 Lambeth Surrey England  a Scholar
Amy Spender Dau aged 4 Lambeth Surrey England
Alfred Spender son aged 2 Lambeth Surrey England
Edward Spender son aged 7  Lambeth Surrey England

Hope this helps Lizzy  :)
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: silvery on Wednesday 12 November 08 13:16 GMT (UK)
Ordering certificates from here
 https://www.ancestryshop.co.uk/GRO/birth_certificate.php
is costing £10.

If you go to the GRO site directly it is only £7.

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

register
page 1, fill in and scroll down to answer YES you have register office index
page 2. delivery address details
page 3, fill in the red starred bits only

Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Wednesday 12 November 08 14:24 GMT (UK)
Hi! Debs Its asking for the volume No: and page No: which I don't have for her Birth Certificate Esther's I mean.

Maybe I ought to get the marriage certificate instead.


Lizzy
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: silvery on Wednesday 12 November 08 14:27 GMT (UK)
it seems that Esther Christina's parents were Frederick Spender and Emily Ann Noseda as per the censuses and the marriage;



Frederick Spender =  Emily Ann Noseda
SEPT Q 1870 
Chelsea, Greater London, London, Middlesex 
Vol 1a  P 383 
 

you can order her birth cert here ..using the volume and reference numbers
Esther Christina Spender 
sept q  1888   
 Wandsworth, Greater London, London, Surrey 

Vol 1d page 545

https://www.ancestryshop.co.uk/GRO/birth_certificate.php

hope this helps ...I think it costs 7 pounds (sorry dopn't have a pound sign here only $  ;D)

I have outlined them here for you.   If you go to the GRO site also, it will only cost £7.   
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Wednesday 12 November 08 14:40 GMT (UK)
 ???Gone to that site sorry to keep worrying you, filled it all in but it keeps coming back with the  * errors all the time.

Don't no what to do next.

Lizzy
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: silvery on Wednesday 12 November 08 15:20 GMT (UK)
If you go to the GRO site directly it is only £7.

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

register
page 1, fill in and scroll down to answer YES you have register office index  (and fill in year of the event which is here 1888)
page 2. delivery address details
page 3, fill in the red starred bits only

This is the information that you need to put in on the last page.

Esther Christina Spender
Year:  1888
quarter:  Sept
district:  Wandsworth
vol: 1d
page: 545


Honestly, it's not too difficult.   Give it a whirl, don't worry about coming back if you get stuck. 

Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Wednesday 12 November 08 15:49 GMT (UK)
 ;D Success at last deb.   Dispatching it out on Monday.

 :) :)
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Wednesday 12 November 08 17:05 GMT (UK)
Also I think Emily did call herself Ann I have loads of information on Emily Ann Noseda, from my mate Christine on Genes Reunited. 

Frederick Spender was from Trowbridge Wiltshire. His mum from Lambeth. Fredericks father was called Issac Spender and his mothers name was Sarah. 

Is there anyway I can send this information to you?
Lizzy
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: cathayb on Wednesday 12 November 08 22:46 GMT (UK)
darling darlin lizzie and dear cousin debs.guess who this is?yes its me cathayb. you are both on my www.christianromanichals web site    lizzie its debs who has a sister in cornwall that we pray for. your going great guns now lizzie.i can see the spanish connection but i cant yet see the italian connection?that means so far you are cinti gypsy not romany but thats okay.your still one of us.debs is great isnt she.and all the other folks on here.i was going to do your family on my next scavenger hunt butlooks like it will all be done by then.can you send me copies of your certs when you get them.i will now try and find out a bit more about the spanish connections over in spain.you take care of yourselves all of you.love cathayb
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: cathayb on Wednesday 12 November 08 22:48 GMT (UK)
i forgot to say debs is my cousin lizzie.and debs i heard you got web cam.so have i on yahoo or msn if you want to contact me.cathayb
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Wednesday 12 November 08 22:58 GMT (UK)
Wow! see how the Lord puts everyone in place, that's great news Debs is really good. Yeah, its going really well. Im getting so excited with it all. But oh! it so confusing as well. Can't remember what a cinti is lol sure sighn of getting older. Don't no about being all done yet cathay but all our ancestory goes back to God.
God Bless you xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxLizzy

I have just ordered  the birth certificate of course I will send a copy to you when i get it. They are dispatching it on Monday.

Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 13 November 08 12:47 GMT (UK)
Hi all  :)

Firstly ...thank you silvery for helping Lizzy ann out with ordering the birth cert  :D

Cathay ...great to see you! how weird that we are all are kinda connected. ;D

I have just been looking around and I am a bit confused ....

Lizzy, you said  frederick Spender b 1851/3, his parents were Isaac and sarah .... I think they were his grandparents

In 1861 we find Frederick Spender , 8 years old with his parents Frederick , 35 carpenter b Trowbridge and Elizabeth , 30 b Lambeth Surrey. His siblings are ;
Joseph 7
Alfred 5
Edward 3
sarah Ann 6months
living in Regent st, Chelsea

Now Frederick, the father,  is with his family in 1851
St Luke, Chelsea
1 Doyley Street
Isaac Spender head 50 carpenter b Wilts, Salisbury
Sarah wife 48 b Trowbridge
FRED 23 carpenter b Trowbridge...this is frederick Jnr's dad
Esther dau 22 dressmaker b "
Eliza 15 b Trowbridge
Sarah A 7 b "

so Frederick Spender b c 1853 married Emily Ann Noseda
His parents were Frederick and Elizabeth
His grandparents were Isaac and Sarah

deb :)

Marriage ;
Isaac SPENDER married Sarah PARADICE
23 MAR 1823   Trowbridge
IGI extracted

Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 13 November 08 13:09 GMT (UK)
this may be Sarah Paradice's christening and parents;

SARAH PARADICE  11 AUG 1802 trowbridge  parents; Reuben Paradice and Hester Parfitt (they married 8 june 1801, Trowbridge)
IGI extracted

in 1841 Reuben Paradise (transcribed as Pandise ) is living in Back street Trowbridge ...he is a cloth maker and is living with other cloth makers/travellers and hawkers

Isaac Spender
born; 28 MAR 1801
christened;  13 SEP 1801   Crow Lane Independent, Wilton By Salisbury, Wiltshire
parents; Thomas Spender and Elizabeth

deb :)
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: cathayb on Thursday 13 November 08 16:53 GMT (UK)
am i getting this right lizzy frederick jnr had a sister called esther?so hat is why he called you granny esther than?emily noseda who he married was the spanish gypsy than so where do they italian bits come in?maybe her dad was italian?and she was born spain?also it looks like you got english romany in you know as well?fredericks father was clothmaker/traveller/hawker and then he married into cinti(which is spanish gypsy)is that right?are these folk your great grandperants or granperants.tell you what i will see it better if i print it out and then i will be able to do you a proper colour tree.are these on your mums side or your dads side?cathay
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 13 November 08 17:07 GMT (UK)
Yes debs  :)you are excatly right, they were his grandparents and christine my friend on Genes Reunited has sent me the same.

Does travellers and hawkers mean they were gypsys at some stage?

I could send you what she sent me, if you can give me your email.
If you are aloud to.

Lizzy
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 13 November 08 17:09 GMT (UK)
Hi Cathay  :D

in 1841
Isaac Spender 40 carpenter, retailer of beer
Sarah 35
Esther 13
FREDERICK 15 ..he married Elizabeth ?? and had son FREDERICK who married Emily Ann Noseda
Joseph 9
Eliza 4
Rhoda 2
Esther PARADICE 70 ind

I don't see them as being travellers .... also why would Frederick Jnr (= Emily Ann Noseda), say in certain censuses that he was born Spain , naturalised British Citizen....

I wonder if any of his siblings state that they were born Spain?

deb
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 13 November 08 17:12 GMT (UK)
just to clarify ...Reuben was living with some hawkers and travellers ...he was stated as being a cloth maker.

Hold on for email , Lizzy :)

deb
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: cathayb on Thursday 13 November 08 17:20 GMT (UK)
ah i see if he was only staying near travellers and hawkers.perhaps he made the cloth they sold.anyway that might have been how he met his spanish gypsy lady or was she italian?be interesting to find out?and also to find william spooner who esther married and what his perants did for a living.cathayb
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 13 November 08 17:25 GMT (UK)
just found a Nicola Noseda 45, hawker b Italy ... living in Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire, in 1861

I think we need the Noseda line ...Lizzy it might be better if you post what you know here (instead of emailing me) in case anybody is related ...you may also want to change your Title of this thread to Spender/Noseda/Paradice ... just in case their are others who can help or are related


deb :)
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 13 November 08 17:29 GMT (UK)
In 1851 Nicola Noseda is with her brother Guiseppe Noseda 56 ...both born Lombardy and both Pedlars, in St Andrew London ....wonder if they are related?

will check Emily Ann Noseda's census info

deb
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: cathayb on Thursday 13 November 08 17:38 GMT (UK)
so does it look like fred was possobly born in spain but her perants are english and they lived amongst travellers and hawkers but were clth makers. and noseda was italian pedler?tat givesus the psanish and italin connection dosnt it lizzie?dont forget when you have doe noseda to do william spooner
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: silvery on Thursday 13 November 08 17:42 GMT (UK)
In 1881   RG11/606/105/39

Fred Spender 28 b Paddington, lab
Emily 29 b Chelsea
Fred 10 b Chelsea        
Samuel 7 b Lambeth
Ann 4 b Lambeth

Fred married Emily Ann Noseda

Possible family for her?

1861  RG9/30/115/12

Mary Ann Noseda 35 shopkeeper b Pimlico
Mary A 15 b Soho
Jane 12 b Pimlica
Emily 9 b Chelsea
Edward 8 b St Pancras
Samuel 6 b St Giles
Henrietta 4 b St Giles
John 8 mths b Chelsea

1851  HO107/1473/368/26

Henry Noseda 30 master gilder b St James
Mary Ann 25 b Chelsea
Elizabeth 8 b Chelsea
Henry 6 b Chelsea
Mary Ann 4 b Chelsea
James 1  dau b St Georges
Ann 3 mths b Chelsea   (I think this may be her)


Marriage

1842 Westminster vol 1 page 318
Henry Antonio Noseda
Mary Ann Peever/Pever


Henry's second name appears to suggest he may have had Spanish/Italian roots.    



Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 13 November 08 17:45 GMT (UK)
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Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 13 November 08 17:46 GMT (UK)
oo well done Lizzy ...yes i have seen those censuses and it does look like her !

Cathay ...Re William henry Spooner ...there are a few possibles for him ...so we will need the marriage cert in order to discover his age, dad's name/occupation  etc.

deb
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: silvery on Thursday 13 November 08 17:49 GMT (UK)
In case you overlook it see my track a posting back from Lizzy's     ;D

This marriage cert may be useful as well

Marriage

1842 Westminster vol 1 page 318
Henry Antonio Noseda
Mary Ann Peever/Pever


Henry's second name appears to suggest he may have had Spanish/Italian roots.   
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 13 November 08 17:52 GMT (UK)
How do I deleate that one sorry about that debs.

Lizzy
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 13 November 08 17:55 GMT (UK)
Sorry which marriage certificate do you want? s
Sorry getting confused now may age lol,  have to get our dinner now back be back shortly.   I can't afford to buy any more certificates if I don't have the one you want.

Lizzy
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 13 November 08 17:57 GMT (UK)
IGI has this extracted record


HENRY ANTHONY NOSEDA s/o Anthony Noseda and Ann
born; 20 MAY 1821
chr; 19 JUN 1821   Saint James, Westminster
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 13 November 08 17:59 GMT (UK)
Hi silvery :)

Lizzy we need this marriage cert so that we can be sure of William Henry Spooner's lineage or does you friend/cousin have it already?

marriage;
Esther Christina Spender = William Henry Spooner
sept q 1908 
 Lambeth  Greater London, London, Surrey 
Vol 1d  pg 650

deb :)
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 13 November 08 18:06 GMT (UK)
I wonder if this is Henry Antonio's dad's WILL  :o


Online Document PROB 11/1866
Will of Antonio Noseda Printseller Saint Martin in the Fields , Middlesex
Date: 1836
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: silvery on Thursday 13 November 08 18:16 GMT (UK)
Hi Deb   ;)    Nice work  8)   

The will would be so useful.  Is a download about £3.50?    You've got his occupation anyway, printseller. 
This side doesn't sound like gypsies to me.

Lizzy you're doing great.   I only suggested the Henry Noseda marr cert, but Deb is finding out great stuff,  so just get the other one.  We all know how costly it is.
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 13 November 08 18:44 GMT (UK)
   This is still bothering me ...why did he change his POB , up until 1891 he has stated Wiltshire and london ...

also can't find his marriage to 2nd wife , Elizabeth



1901
Lambeth London
Frederick Spender head mar 47 smith & fitter b SPAIN (natural gr British subject ..maybe naturalised?)
Elizabeth wife 27 b London, lambeth
Charles son 14 port errand boy b Battersea
Esther E dau 12 b battersea  wrong middle initial  :-\ I can't find a birth for an Esther E in 1888/9
Mabel dau 10 months b Clapham

in 1891
they are mistranscribed as SPONDER
Battersea
Frederick Spender head widr gen lab 38 b naturalised British Subject
Samuel son 17 b Lambeth
Alfred son 12         "
Annie dau 15        "
Frank son 8 b Battersea
Sarah dau 6      "
Charles son 4  "
ESTHER dau 2    "


Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 13 November 08 18:58 GMT (UK)
Thanks Silvery  I'm getting Esther Christina Spender my grannie's birth certificate they are sending it out on Monday.

Hope all this is not costing you both to much money for doing it all for me, I really appreciate all this.

Got to piece it all together lol when it done.

Lizzy
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: cathayb on Thursday 13 November 08 19:04 GMT (UK)
so have we got lizzys gt grandperants as spanish and italian or not?i am beginning to doubt it?if they were of spanish/italian origin they may not have the same sort of gypsy trades as we are used to.they were very artistic the spanish and the italians i believe and maybe they thought they could hawk their atistic talents eg.cloths and prints overhere?printseller maybe!but master gilder?is that gold leaf or something?i think i have been away from doing family history too long.i will need to get my family history cap on!i think cause lissie said her grannys perants were spanish and italian before ever she came on here i got that stuck in my mind and its stopping me see further than that!ah well at least i am trying!wellat least her birth cert will prove who her mum and dad are.
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 13 November 08 19:23 GMT (UK)
Sorry cathya I was told by my mum that my grannie had Italian and Spanish parents.   I think there is Italian along the line somewhere though Cathay

Lizzy
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 13 November 08 19:37 GMT (UK)
Here is another one debs

HENRYS BIRTH NOTE IT SAYS aNTONY NOT aNTONIA THE eNGLISH VERSION of the Italian name

HENRY ANTHONY NOSEDA

Birth: 20 MAY 1821

Christening: 19 JUN 1821 Saint James, Westminster, London, England

Birth: 20 MAY 1821

Christening: 19 JUN 1821 Saint James, Westminster, London, England


Parents:
Father: ANTHONY NOSEDA Family
Mother: ANN

Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details

RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.

For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information.  Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical.  Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted.  We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of this issue.

This one I typed myself from what my friend christine gave me from Genes Reunited.










Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 13 November 08 19:40 GMT (UK)
REUBONS MARRIAGE

RUBEN PARADICE Pedigree
Male Family

Marriages:
Spouse: HESTER PARFITT Family
Marriage: 08 JUN 1801 Trowbridge, Wiltshire, England


Hope this all helps Lizzy
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 13 November 08 19:53 GMT (UK)
I have ordered William Spooner and Esther Christina Spender's marriage certificate now.

So hopefully this will solve some questions.

Lizzy
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 13 November 08 19:56 GMT (UK)
hi again

just trying to think this through; I posted this earlier;

In 1861 we find Frederick Spender , 8 years old with his parents Frederick , 35 carpenter b Trowbridge and Elizabeth , 30 b Lambeth Surrey. His siblings are ;
Joseph 7
Alfred 5
Edward 3
sarah Ann 6months
living in Regent st, Chelsea

Now all the children except FREDERICK (+ Emily Ann Noseda) are born Chelsea;
Alfred Spender sept q 1855  Chelsea
 Edward Spender DEc q 1856 Chelsea
Sarah Ann Spender dec q 1860 Chelsea

there is also this one;
William Joseph Spender Mar q 1854  Chelsea ...now is he Joseph?
there is a Frank Spender registered 1859  :-\

I can't find FREDERICK's ....so was he born in Spain ...?? maybe someone can look for him

hi Lizzy ...just seen your posts ...will read
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 13 November 08 22:51 GMT (UK)
Hi! There I ordered the marriage certifcate but I got an email from
GRO Internet Payments saying Transaction Confirmation then i got anouther email saying:
no further action will be taken on this email. 

Do you no what these means debs
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Wednesday 19 November 08 17:40 GMT (UK)
Hi! Ladies  Just got the birth certificate through this morning and  :)look!!!!!!!

Birth date: 27th July 1988 
  Esther Christina (gir)   father: Frederick Charles Spender. (Engine Fitter)
Mother: Emily Spender (formaly Noseda)
F.C. Spender 31 Limford Street Battersea
regestered 23rd July 1888

Lizzyann
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Wednesday 19 November 08 17:41 GMT (UK)
Sorry 7th July 1988    NOt 27th July 1988
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Wednesday 19 November 08 17:42 GMT (UK)
 SORRY GETTING SO EXCITED TYPED IT OUT WRONG

APPOLOGIES
 
BRITH DATE: 7TH JUNE 1988
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: cathayb on Wednesday 19 November 08 17:44 GMT (UK)
hey hey,thats great isnt it lizzy?try and calm down before tonight love.so pleased for you.love cathayb
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: lizzyann on Wednesday 19 November 08 17:50 GMT (UK)
LOL i WILL CATHAY HOW DO I CHANGE THE THREAD AS DEB SUGGESTED AND HOW DO I GET RID OF ONE OF THE POSTS I SENT .   SORRY ABOUT LAST NIGHT MY INTERNET KEPT GOING OFF .
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: cathayb on Wednesday 19 November 08 17:55 GMT (UK)
i am afraid i dont know!maybe debs will know and tell you when she comes on line.sorry.cathayb
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: deb usa on Wednesday 19 November 08 18:01 GMT (UK)
Hi Girls  :D


Great news Lizzy ..at least you have confirmed everything so far !!!!  ;D

Lizzy tpo amend your heading .....go back to your first post on this thread ...at the top right hand corner on the post will be "Quote' and "modify"

click on Modify, the post will then appear and you can delete the heading and put your  new one.  Hopefully more Spender, rellies may see it!!

deb xx
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: cathayb on Wednesday 19 November 08 18:20 GMT (UK)
hi darling.thanks for the info you gave lizzy.that helps me too as i have never known how to do it.love to you cousin cathayb
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Wednesday 19 November 08 19:08 GMT (UK)
 ;D  Thanks debs     So we ae stuck for the moment.

I will ask my friend again Christine on Genes Reunited if we can come up with anything else.  Lets hope someone might no something else now.

Thanks for all your help and silvery as well, also cathay.

Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: cathayb on Wednesday 19 November 08 19:18 GMT (UK)
i think your going to have to have another go at getting william spooners marriage cert!that will help us follow him back through.cathayb
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Wednesday 19 November 08 19:37 GMT (UK)
I will have another go but they said this certificate has been produced outside our normal production system due to the poor qulity of the origanal filmed record.

But I will try again. Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: cathayb on Wednesday 19 November 08 19:47 GMT (UK)
what a shame.it seems unlikely your going to get it then.do you know their marriage date? ??? :'(
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Wednesday 19 November 08 19:57 GMT (UK)
Hi back from grocery shopping ...

I need to reread ... Lizzy ....eeekkkk you need to redo your heading ... Spencer should be SPENDER

deb
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 20 November 08 22:47 GMT (UK)
 :)  Debs I now have the marriage certificate came through this morning.

William Henry Spooner Age 27 Bachelor (Hairdresser) Father's name: Alfred Henry Spooner

Esther Christina Spender 21 Spinster   Father's name: William Frederick Spender.    Blacksmith

Its very blurred to read. so i can't make out what Alfred did for living.

My mum tells me she thinks that Esther could have been adopted at one time.
Their address: Can't read it as it is blurred but I could send you a copy of the birth and marriage certificate.
Lizzy  (OK will do the heading again)
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: cathayb on Thursday 20 November 08 23:00 GMT (UK)
send me copies pleease lissie.i have a spoecialist will read them for you.cathayb
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 20 November 08 23:24 GMT (UK)
 :)my mum says now she got it wrong that  william frederick spender changed his name to spender  cause they were imigrants.
 
After Esther was born Frederick Spender first wife had another child an  died in child birth.

Then he remarried again, to an Irish woman.

Gosh my family is sooo!!!!!!!  :oconfusing.

Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 20 November 08 23:45 GMT (UK)
hi lizzy ...nice to see you back :)


The Spencer/Spender family must have be immigrants a long time ago as we have trace frederick Spender's family back to the 1841 census.

frederick's second wife was Elizabeth ...but I have not been able to find their marriage yet.

this is his life;
1901
Lambeth London
Frederick Spender head mar 47 smith & fitter b SPAIN (natural gr British subject ..maybe naturalised?)
Elizabeth wife 27 b London, lambeth>>>>>> new wife
Charles son 14 port errand boy b Battersea
Esther E dau 12 b battersea  wrong middle initial   I can't find a birth for an Esther E in 1888/9
Mabel dau 10 months b Clapham

in 1891
they are mistranscribed as SPONDER
Battersea
Frederick Spender head widr gen lab 38 b naturalised British Subject
Samuel son 17 b Lambeth
Alfred son 12         "
Annie dau 15        "
Frank son 8 b Battersea
Sarah dau 6      "
Charles son 4  "
ESTHER dau 2    "

In 1881    RG11/606/105/39

Fred Spender 28 b Paddington, lab
Emily 29 b Chelsea
Fred 10 b Chelsea       
Samuel 7 b Lambeth
Ann 4 b Lambeth


In 1861 we find Frederick Spender , 8 years old with his parents Frederick , 35 carpenter b Trowbridge and Elizabeth , 30 b Lambeth Surrey. His siblings are ;
Joseph 7
Alfred 5
Edward 3
sarah Ann 6months
living in Regent st, Chelsea

Now Frederick, the father,  is with his family in 1851
St Luke, Chelsea
1 Doyley Street
Isaac Spender head 50 carpenter b Wilts, Salisbury
Sarah wife 48 b Trowbridge
FRED 23 carpenter b Trowbridge...this is frederick Jnr's dad
Esther dau 22 dressmaker b "
Eliza 15 b Trowbridge
Sarah A 7 b "

so Frederick Spender b c 1853 married Emily Ann Noseda  and wife 2 = Elizabeth ??
His parents were Frederick and Elizabeth
His grandparents were Isaac and Sarah

in 1841
Isaac Spender 40 carpenter, retailer of beer
Sarah 35
Esther 13
FREDERICK 15 ..he married Elizabeth ?? and had son FREDERICK who married Emily Ann Noseda
Joseph 9
Eliza 4
Rhoda 2
Esther PARADICE 70 ind

I wonder why we don't have 1871 for them?

deb :)


Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 20 November 08 23:47 GMT (UK)
Blimey ...just noticed you have marriage details .... wooohoooooooooo ... i will have a look around and see if i can find his family .... ;D :D

deb  :)
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 20 November 08 23:58 GMT (UK)
Sorry about all this debs.    Frederick Spender changed his name over here cause they were imigrants so my mum says she got it wrong about being adopted. 

After Esther Frederick wife had another child and died in child birth.

He then remarried an Irish woman. 

Gosh my family is soooo!!!!!! confusing.  :o

Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Friday 21 November 08 01:37 GMT (UK)
Hi

I have found him in 1901

London , St Pancras
Edward Wellings and family
Anne Spooner visitor 50 Monthly Nurse/sick b holborn London
WILLIAM Spooner visitor 20 HAIRDRESSER b London pentonville

will look for him in prior censuses ...late here , must go for now...

deb :)
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 22 November 08 19:46 GMT (UK)
Hi girls :)

Okay ...foloowing up on William Henry Spooner ...we have him in 1901 as a hairdresser with Annie Spooner ....

1891;
15 St Percy st, St James Clerkenwell, London
George A LAUGHTON head mar 25 solicitor's clerk b Clerkenwell
Mary E wife 22 b Yorks, Sheffield
Sarah Mother wid 63 b Notts
Katie A sister single 22 28 jewelry polisher/gold b Lancashire PReston
Alfred G SPOONER nephew 13 office boy / port b St Pancras London
WILLIAM H SPOONER nephew 10 scholar b Islington London
Mary J Woolhouse visitor 20 single b Yorks, Sheffield

William's dad was Alfred Henry Spooner according to his marriage cert ...

marriage
Alfred Henry Spooner = Annie Elizabeth LAUGHTON
June q  1875 
Pancras  London, Middlesex 
vol 1b  pg 63 

will look for more info

deb :)
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 22 November 08 20:00 GMT (UK)
aaahhhhaaaaa ...here they are all together  ;D

1881
12 Cummings st, St James, Ckerkenwell
Alfred H SPOONER head married 31 warehouseman b Pimlico, Middlesex
Annie E wife 30 Ostrich feather cleaner  :o b Holborn
Alfred G son 3 b clerkenwell
WILLIAM H son 6 months b Clerkenwell

deb
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 22 November 08 20:58 GMT (UK)
okay ...

this is Alfred H Spooner with his family
1871
12 Carlton street
JOhn Spooner head mar 46 carpenter b Norfolk, Gunthorpe
Anna M wife 40 b eastbourne sussex
ALFRED H son 21 telegraph clerk b Pimlico
Clara M dau 13 b St Pancres
Ada L dau 6 b Islington
Grace E dau 2 b St Pancras
William Chard lodger 34 painter b Devonshire, Chard

1861
12 Caledonia place, Islington, Finsbury
Anna M SPOONER wife mar 30 b eastbourne sussex
Alfred H son 11 b pimlico ??elton Place
Clara  M dau 3 b Drumond Street
John A son 1 b Islington , 12 Calodonia Place

can't see them in 1851 yet .... also I wonder why there is such a gap between Alfred and Clara's birth

deb
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: cathayb on Saturday 22 November 08 23:18 GMT (UK)
hmmn 8 years but then thers 7 years between clara and ada too.maybe she didnt concieve that easy or some died in infancy?cathayb
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 22 November 08 23:35 GMT (UK)
hi cousin Cathay :-*

It's very strange that I cannot find a marriage for John Spooner and Anna .... in 1861 she did have another son John A Spooner who was 1yr old.

I was thinking that maybe Alfred H Spooner was anna's son ...I cannot find a birth reg for him or Clara either  :-\

By 1881 Anna M is a widow and has Grace her daughter with her ... also William Chard is still a lodger with them.

I wonder if Lizzy will be able to confirm that Afred H Spooner was a warehouseman on the marriage cert of William H Spooner?

Do you think Lizzy will want us to follow her gr grandmother Annie Elizabeth laughton?

deb :)
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Sunday 23 November 08 17:41 GMT (UK)
Dear Debs

Alfred H. Spooner was a Telegraphist

William Frederick Spender was a Blacksmith

and my great grandad William Henry Spooner was a Hairdresser.

Yes please can you follow up Annie Elizabeth Laughton.

Thanks once again Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Sunday 23 November 08 17:48 GMT (UK)
Also my Esther Spender had 4 other daughters as well as my dad not sure if I mentioned them.

Don't no any dates of brith ect :(  but they were Mable, which I see  Ann, Winnie, Violet, and the brother which you found died young. 

Also somewhere along the line some were killed in action and some died young.  When my mum comes up in a few weeks I will ask her.
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 23 November 08 18:22 GMT (UK)
Hi Lizzy

Do you know if Ann, Violet and Winnie were younger than Mabel ?

also would it be the Spooner's who died in action?

deb
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: cathayb on Sunday 23 November 08 18:30 GMT (UK)
WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIND THEM IN THE WAR RECORDS FOR THE FIRST WORLD WAR.THE ONLY TROUBLE IS MY SUBSCRIPTION TO ANCESTRY HAS JUST RUN OUT AND I AM NOT THINKING OF RENEWING UNTIL AFTER CHRISTMAS.THATS WHY I HAVENT BEEN ALOT OF HELP.SORRY. lol
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 23 November 08 19:00 GMT (UK)
Hi Cathay :)

I have looked on CWGC for Spooners and Spenders ...can't spot any likely candidates  :-\

Hopefully Lizzy's mum can come up with someone specific. I will work on the Laughtons soon ...busy here at the moment ...housework never seems to end !!!!!!  ::) :(

deb
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: cathayb on Sunday 23 November 08 19:12 GMT (UK)
dont i know it!!!i seem to move my dust from one end of the chalet to the other and then back again.there always more flying about then i can deal with.cathayb
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Sunday 23 November 08 20:11 GMT (UK)
Hi! Debs I'm pretty sure they were younger.

Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Sunday 23 November 08 20:12 GMT (UK)
I'm not sure if any of the Spooners died in action I will have to ask my mum when she comes up.

Sorry about that

Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 15 January 09 23:11 GMT (UK)
Hi! Everyone Hope you all had a lovely christmas and A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU ALL.

Not much to go on but this is what my mum told me:
William Spooner my Grandad had 2 sisters but don't no any names. (neither were married)

My dad's father William Spooner had these daughters which I said, but here is the difference  Winnie was the youngest  Died at 90  1916 in America

Annie was next she had a twin called George  then Mable.

These are there husbands.    Winnie & Robert Ellard

                                                 Annie & Nobbie Williams

                                                  Mable & Louis Woodward

                                                   Violet & Len  ?

None of them died in the war.       I have a cousin who is Annie and Nobbie Williams Son I am going to write to him apparently he will no more than my mum.   thanks Lizzy
                                                   


                                         
                                                 
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 15 January 09 23:26 GMT (UK)
hi cousin Cathay :-*

It's very strange that I cannot find a marriage for John Spooner and Anna .... in 1861 she did have another son John A Spooner who was 1yr old.

I was thinking that maybe Alfred H Spooner was anna's son ...I cannot find a birth reg for him or Clara either  :-\

By 1881 Anna M is a widow and has Grace her daughter with her ... also William Chard is still a lodger with them.

I wonder if Lizzy will be able to confirm that Afred H Spooner was a warehouseman on the marriage cert of William H Spooner?

Do you think Lizzy will want us to follow her gr grandmother Annie Elizabeth laughton?

deb :)

Hi Lizzyann

HNY to you too!!!!

I an sooooo sorry that I did not follow up on Annie Elizabeth Laughton.... :-[ I will get to it asap. and follow up on your new info.

deb xxx
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: cathayb on Friday 16 January 09 12:02 GMT (UK)
hi my cousin,how are your darling?hope all is well and happy new year to you too.love cathayb
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Friday 16 January 09 13:15 GMT (UK)
Hi girls

I have been looking for Winnie's birth reg ...and I am not sure about this but it's a possibility:

Esther Christina Spender married William Henry Spooner in the sept quarter 1908 in lambeth. I can't find Winnie under SPOONER but did find this;


  Winifred Sponder
sept q 1907
Lambeth 1907 
vol 1d page 257

Maybe she was born prior to their marriage.

Also Lizzy Ann, you said Annie was the twin of George who died young ...I can't find her birth  :-\

will look around some more

deb

Hi Cousin ...I am well ....hope you are too  :-*
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Wednesday 21 January 09 20:08 GMT (UK)
Hi! Debs  My mum is getting confused.  It was my Dad's brother that died at birth and I don't think they were twins though.


I don't mind if you want to follow my g grandmother Annie Elizabeth Laughton

No problems.

Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Monday 26 January 09 13:16 GMT (UK)
Hi girls

Back again :)

okay re; Annie Elizabeth LAUGHTON

birth reg;
Jun q 1851 
 Holborn , London, Middlesex 
Vol 2 Pg 154


She married Alfred H Spooner in 1875

1881
12 Cummings st, St James, Ckerkenwell
Alfred H SPOONER head married 31 warehouseman b Pimlico, Middlesex
Annie E wife 30 Ostrich feather cleaner   b Holborn ...nee Laughton
Alfred G son 3 b clerkenwell
WILLIAM H son 6 months b Clerkenwell

In 1891 William H and Alfred Spooner are stayiong with their uncle George LAUGHTON and Family

1901
London , St Pancras
Edward Wellings and family
Anne Spooner visitor 50 Monthly Nurse/sick b holborn London ..nee Laughton
WILLIAM Spooner visitor 20 HAIRDRESSER b London pentonville

~~~~~~~~---------
her info prior to marrying Alfred Spooner:

1871
44 Liverpool street.
Pancras, Marylebone
Sarah Laughton head mar 43 wife of post office clerk b Nottingham Worksop
Annie E dau 20 unm Ostrich feather worker b Middlesex, Bloomsbury
Fred E son 18 unm assistant to tea grocer b Worksop
Minnie H dau 13 Ostrich feather worker b Middlesex Islington
Kate A dau 11 b Preston, lancash.
George A son 5 b Middl;esex Clerkenwell (this is the Uncle William and Albert were with in 1891 ..see  page 6 for details)

1861
Clerkenwell
1 Gt Percy street
Frederick Laughton head mar 30 sorter at G P Office b Nottingham, Marnham?
Sarah wife 33 b Notts, Worksop
ANNIE E dau 11 b Middlesex
Fred E son 9 b Worksop
Minnie H dau 4 b Middlesex
Kate A dau 10 months b Lancash, Preston,

1851
St George The Martyr
10 orange street
Frederick Laughton head mar 22 letter carrier b Marnham
Sarah wife 23 dressmaker b Worksop
Annie E dau 1 month b Middlesex, London
Elizabeth Heatt? sister-in-law 20 b Worksop

marriage;
Frederick Laughton = Sarah Hett
jun q 1849 
 West London  , London
vol 2 p 247


will look for more asap

deb :)


added ...just noticed we don't have Annie E and Albert H Spooner in 1891...will look for them
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Monday 26 January 09 13:43 GMT (UK)
 :'(

1891
London, Holborn, Bloomsbury
14 Woburn Sq
Ann E SPOONER servant widow 40 housekeeper,  Domestic  b Bloomsbury
in the home of these 3 guys who are all joint heads of the household;
Samuel F Ridley (manufacturer of floor cloth), Frank C Ford (student of medicine), Charles B Bone (architect)

possible death:

 Alfred Spooner
born abt 1850
died june q 1885, aged 35 :'(
 Pancras, London
Vol 1b p 104

deb
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Monday 26 January 09 14:10 GMT (UK)
Hi again

Found Esther Christine Spooner b 1888, aged 23, living in Islington in the 1911 census.... people in same household = William Henry Spooner b 1881

can't find Winnie  :-\

ooo found a Winifred Spencer b 1907 , living in Islington in 1911  ..... which goes with the Spender/spencer name and her being born out of wedlock.

from a previous post

Winifred Sponder
sept q 1907
Lambeth
vol 1d p 257

deb

 
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Monday 26 January 09 14:20 GMT (UK)
me again

okay

1911 census
I have found these people in the same household as Esther Christine SPOONER in Islington

ANNIE Spooner b 1910, 10 months
VIOLET Spooner b 1909 , 2 years
William Henry b 1881, 30 years

so we have two of their children ... Winnie must be with other relatives as she is not with them!


also ...when I put just William Henry, occupation hairdresser (no surname, DOB, POB etc) guess who comes up?  ;D yes ...your William henry SPOONER b 1881  :D :D

deb
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Monday 26 January 09 14:50 GMT (UK)
Back to the Laughtons;

re Frederick Laughton f/o Annie Elizabeth Laughton , who was William Henry Spooner's mum!

he was not with his family in the 1871 census ...he was lodging in York Rd, Islington (41, clerk in post office), in the home of Benjamin Russell a lodging house keeper.

IGI has this extracted Christening
FREDERICK LAUGHTON s/o George Laughton and Martha
8 NOV 1829   Marnham, Nottingham


deb

Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Friday 30 January 09 16:10 GMT (UK)
Wow! Debs A
ll look good to me your brilliant thanks ever so muich
for doing this.

Now it's got to go on the faimily tree, lol will I ever be able to do it.

Thanks once again

Love Lizzyxxxx
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Friday 30 January 09 16:18 GMT (UK)
 
:)Just to let you no Debs, Alfred H Spooner wife is Annie Fisher (her maiden name)   And Annie Fisher's parents were Thomas Fisher and Mary Bamford but I'm not sue I think he married twice.

Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Friday 30 January 09 18:06 GMT (UK)
Hi Lizzie

Umm ...
William H Spooner s/o Alfred H spponer is with his uncle George A Laughton in 1891

1891;
15 St Percy st, St James Clerkenwell, London
George A LAUGHTON head mar 25 solicitor's clerk b Clerkenwell
Mary E wife 22 b Yorks, Sheffield
Sarah Mother wid 63 b Notts
Katie A sister single 22 28 jewelry polisher/gold b Lancashire PReston
Alfred G SPOONER nephew 13 office boy / port b St Pancras London
WILLIAM H SPOONER nephew 10 scholar b Islington London
Mary J Woolhouse visitor 20 single b Yorks, Sheffield

which goes with Alfred H SPOONER marrying Annie E LAUGHTON in 1875.

where did you get Annie Fisher from?

deb :)
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Friday 30 January 09 23:26 GMT (UK)
 :) Hi! Debs   

A freind found it for me but she was not sure it was the right one,
now looking at yours it all seems to add up.

My dad was a Jewlers Manager when he was alive.

Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Saturday 28 February 09 22:18 GMT (UK)
 :)Hi Debs Hope you are all ok.

Hope this will help:
Frederic Spender  Male 28 Paddington Middlesex England Labourer
Emily Spender Wife   29 Chelsea Middlesex
Frederick Spender Son  10  ..        ..
Samuel Spender Son 7 Lambeth Middleses
Amy Spender Dau   4       ..             ..
Alfred Spender Son 7m     ..                  ..

Eshter Christina Spender must have been born by his second wife Elizabeth.     

Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Saturday 28 February 09 22:28 GMT (UK)
Also Debs my mum said the Spender/Spencer family were immigrants.
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: deb usa on Wednesday 04 March 09 12:25 GMT (UK)
Hi Lizzyann

Hope you are well …. ;D

The details you have given are the 1881 census. Esther was born 1888. By 1891, Frederick her dad is a widow and she is 2 years old (see below), then by 1901 Fred is remarried to Elizabeth.

Your Esther Christina is definitely the daughter of Fred and Emily Ann...

1891
they are transcribed as SPONDER
Battersea
Frederick Spender head widr gen lab 38 b naturalised British Subject
Samuel son 17 b Lambeth
Alfred son 12         "
Annie dau 15        "
Frank son 8 b Battersea
Sarah dau 6      "
Charles son 4  "
ESTHER dau 2    "

Lizzy …you have Esther birth cert which gives you her details … she is the daughter of Frederick and Emily Ann Noseda

Birth date: 27th July 1888 
  Esther Christina (gir)   father: Frederick Charles Spender. (Engine Fitter)
Mother: Emily Spender (formaly Noseda)  
F.C. Spender 31 Limford Street Battersea
regestered 23rd July 1888

deb :)
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 05 March 09 20:31 GMT (UK)
 ;)Hi! Debs Yeah, sorry I forgot I had that birth certificate lol

Cathay sent me this: Theresa Emanuela Maria Noseda 11Sept 1797 Santa Maria, Aranys De Mar, Barcelona Spain.

Parents: Father Franciso Noseda
               Mother Isabel Casals

Could these be Emily Ann Spender (formaly Noseda) her parents
Thanks Debs for doing all this for me.
Title: Re: Spencer (Spanish Gypsy's)
Post by: silvery on Sunday 15 March 09 12:08 GMT (UK)
Just came in for a quick look.   Here's what I found which might fit for Emily Ann.
It's from page 4.    You can see that Henry Noseda was British born. 

In 1881   RG11/606/105/39

Fred Spender 28 b Paddington, lab
Emily 29 b Chelsea
Fred 10 b Chelsea        
Samuel 7 b Lambeth
Ann 4 b Lambeth

Fred married Emily Ann Noseda

Possible family for her?

1861  RG9/30/115/12

Mary Ann Noseda 35 shopkeeper b Pimlico
Mary A 15 b Soho
Jane 12 b Pimlica
Emily 9 b Chelsea <<<<<<<<
Edward 8 b St Pancras
Samuel 6 b St Giles
Henrietta 4 b St Giles
John 8 mths b Chelsea

1851  HO107/1473/368/26

Henry Noseda 30 master gilder b St James
Mary Ann 25 b Chelsea
Elizabeth 8 b Chelsea
Henry 6 b Chelsea
Mary Ann 4 b Chelsea
James 1  dau b St Georges
Ann 3 mths b Chelsea   (I think this may be her) <<<<<<<<


Marriage

1842 Westminster vol 1 page 318
Henry Antonio Noseda
Mary Ann Peever/Pever


Henry's second name appears to suggest he may have had Spanish/Italian roots.    




Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: silvery on Sunday 15 March 09 12:20 GMT (UK)
If the above is correct, here is information from the International Genealogical Index (IGI)

Henry Anthony Noseda
born 20th May 1821
Christened 19th June 1821, St James, Westminster London

Parents:  Henry Anthony Noseda, Ann

batch no:  C723011
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: silvery on Sunday 15 March 09 12:28 GMT (UK)
In 1841 Henry is in the census aged 20 a carver (goes with master gilder very well) .  He will have been an apprentice for this.  He was single, and born in county (London).

1841 census HO107; Piece 673, Book 17, Folio 32, Page 57
 Civil Parish: St Giles in The Fields;

Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Sunday 15 March 09 19:37 GMT (UK)
Hi!  Silvery Thank for finding that: I found this on family Search which is a free search:

Henry Anthony Noseda Birth 20th May 1821 Saint James, Westmnister, London, England

Parents
Father: Anthony Noseda
Mother:  Ann

So it looks as though your right.

Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Sunday 15 March 09 19:48 GMT (UK)
Hi! again, Mary Ann Noseda I beleive also called herself Ann.
Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: silvery on Sunday 15 March 09 19:58 GMT (UK)
But don't get mixed up here   ;)

Henry Anthony Noseda married Mary Ann Peever.  His mother was called Ann according to the IGI.   
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Sunday 15 March 09 21:03 GMT (UK)
oh! by the way sorry to worry you again what is a master glider, I never heard of that Lizzy Thanks once again
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Sunday 15 March 09 21:16 GMT (UK)
Me again,  ;D  Do you no what year it was they married?
Thanks once again LIzzy

Is Debs ok, do you no her haven't heard from her lately.
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: silvery on Sunday 15 March 09 23:00 GMT (UK)
See my post on the previous page, page 8, which I have amended in red.   

Have you got all these people in a family tree programme so that you can print  out the tree and see where they all fit in?    It makes it much clearer if you do that.
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: silvery on Sunday 15 March 09 23:01 GMT (UK)
Master gilders apply gold leaf to furniture, especially wood. 

Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Wednesday 18 March 09 22:15 GMT (UK)
I got some of them on silvery, but asks for dates of birth and I don't no all the dates of there birth. Cathay gave me a programme which I can do offline, so I am just getting my head around them.  I been doing my mother's side as well which are Taylors, and Valentines, and flanders.

This is the interesting side is my father's side, which I have been stuck on for ages, but now you are all helping which I much appreciate, is beginning to come to-gether.   I am getting stuck now as well with my mother's side lol, but I will stick with my father's side for the time being.

It's so confusing though trying to put it all-together.  Thanks Lizzy.  Must be my age lol
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: silvery on Thursday 19 March 09 08:08 GMT (UK)
Good idea to have a tree and your information offline.  you can always upload it to something web-based.

You need to get all your names down in the programme you've got, so you can print out a tree, and see where they all fit in.  Doesn't matter if you haven't got dates of birth, put in the year.  Best if you can work out which year, if you don't know exactly just put the approximate one.  You can always amend it afterwards if you find out anything else.

It gets very confusing working on too many lines at once.  You're quite right to stick to one at a time.
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Thursday 02 April 09 17:27 BST (UK)
Golly Silvery looking at all these names where do I start first and work through lol it so confusing. I will have to print them all out and asee what happens.  ;D

Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: MSpender on Thursday 02 July 09 18:12 BST (UK)
I'm not familiar with leaving messages, so please bear with me if I make a mistake!  I found this thread by chance today and had to write because Esther Christina Spender/Spooner was my husband's great aunt.  I have been researching his family for about 12 years and although I have gone a long way, it has thrown up lots of mysteries.  My husband's grandfather was Frederick Spender (although he died before my husband was born).   He was born in Paddington, he gives the correct information in the 1881 census.  He married Emily Noseda who died in 1891.  At some point, he 'married' my husband's grandmother Elizabeth Mary Hale.  Because there is no record of a marriage, I am unable to pinpoint exactly who she is.   I do not know why Frederick Spender said he was born in Spain in the 1901 census.  In 1891 he said he was a naturalised british subject, although I just cannot read the other words.  In 1911, he goes back to saying he was born in Chelsea.  Now, his parents married in Chelsea, he was born the year after in Paddington, then they moved back to Chelsea where the other children were born.
I think I'm running out of space, so will continue in another message.....
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: MSpender on Thursday 02 July 09 18:16 BST (UK)
continued.  My husband's father and his sisters all had a spanish/italian look.  But, what caught my interest was that my husband and my two daughters all have Rhesus A negative blood and according to the internet, the highest incidence of this blood group is in the Basque region of Spain!
I would be interested to hear the stories passed down in families about a possible Spanish connection - also I think I read someone said that Frederick Spender's next wife was Irish? 
Hope I've done this okay.
Title: Re: SPENCER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: silvery on Thursday 02 July 09 20:10 BST (UK)
hi lizzy ...nice to see you back :)


The Spencer/Spender family must have be immigrants a long time ago as we have trace frederick Spender's family back to the 1841 census.

frederick's second wife was Elizabeth ...but I have not been able to find their marriage yet.

this is his life;
1901
Lambeth London
Frederick Spender head mar 47 smith & fitter b SPAIN (natural gr British subject ..maybe naturalised?)
Elizabeth wife 27 b London, lambeth>>>>>> new wife
Charles son 14 port errand boy b Battersea
Esther E dau 12 b battersea  wrong middle initial   I can't find a birth for an Esther E in 1888/9
Mabel dau 10 months b Clapham

in 1891
they are mistranscribed as SPONDER
Battersea
Frederick Spender head widr gen lab 38 b naturalised British Subject
Samuel son 17 b Lambeth
Alfred son 12         "
Annie dau 15        "
Frank son 8 b Battersea
Sarah dau 6      "
Charles son 4  "
ESTHER dau 2    "

In 1881    RG11/606/105/39

Fred Spender 28 b Paddington, lab
Emily 29 b Chelsea
Fred 10 b Chelsea       
Samuel 7 b Lambeth
Ann 4 b Lambeth


In 1861 we find Frederick Spender , 8 years old with his parents Frederick , 35 carpenter b Trowbridge and Elizabeth , 30 b Lambeth Surrey. His siblings are ;
Joseph 7
Alfred 5
Edward 3
sarah Ann 6months
living in Regent st, Chelsea

Now Frederick, the father,  is with his family in 1851
St Luke, Chelsea
1 Doyley Street
Isaac Spender head 50 carpenter b Wilts, Salisbury
Sarah wife 48 b Trowbridge
FRED 23 carpenter b Trowbridge...this is frederick Jnr's dad
Esther dau 22 dressmaker b "
Eliza 15 b Trowbridge
Sarah A 7 b "

so Frederick Spender b c 1853 married Emily Ann Noseda  and wife 2 = Elizabeth ??
His parents were Frederick and Elizabeth
His grandparents were Isaac and Sarah

in 1841
Isaac Spender 40 carpenter, retailer of beer
Sarah 35
Esther 13
FREDERICK 15 ..he married Elizabeth ?? and had son FREDERICK who married Emily Ann Noseda
Joseph 9
Eliza 4
Rhoda 2
Esther PARADICE 70 ind

I wonder why we don't have 1871 for them?

deb :)




This is from page 6 or thereabouts.   It looks like he may have been born in Spain, of British parentage.   
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: lizzyann on Monday 07 September 09 15:25 BST (UK)
Hi! Silvery,

Hope you are ok?   Did you get my messages I have been sending, also sent a message to
Debs, but have no reply's.     Lizzy
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: Bundy66 on Friday 23 November 12 08:28 GMT (UK)
Hi Lizy

I am tracing the descendants of Joseph Ellis of Worksop, Nottinghamshire, England (of which I am one, as is your William Henry Spooner), and have just noticed this discussion.

I don't know if you've found anything out about your Winnie, but I think she was actually christened Theresa M Winnie Spooner (in 1914). She married Robert H Ellard in 1940, in Chichester, Sussex, England.

Alan
Title: Re: SPENDER/NOSEDA/PARADICE
Post by: Izzie.lucas on Wednesday 03 January 24 23:04 GMT (UK)
Hi,

My name is Izzie.l have never hear of this website before. My grandma bling to th SPENDER/NOSEDA line. I m trying to research it all. Can anyone help me?

All the best,

Izzie