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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Fermanagh => Topic started by: nigelo on Tuesday 11 November 08 06:47 GMT (UK)
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Jane Quinn married my Gt Gt grandfather Charles Smitherman in Tonbridge, Kent in 1866. On their marriage certificate she gives this information – age 24 (so born about 1842), father Patrick Quinn, deceased, policeman. Unfortunately there are a lot of Patrick Quinn’s in England prior to 1866, and many of them seem to have become policeman! None obviously fit as Jane’s father though.
On the 1871 census the enumerator unhelpfully just ditto’d her husband’s place of birth, Tonbridge, Kent, which is actually wrong for both of them!
In 1881 it gives her place of birth as Ireland, Fermanagh, and age now 38 (birth in 1843)
In 1891 the place becomes just Ireland
Finally in 1901 we get something useful, “Ireland, Billick”, and a dob of 1842.
I’ve hunted through Irish place names, and found nowhere called Billick, but did find “Belleek”, near Enniskillen, in Fermanagh which seems a likely answer.
Do parish records for Beleek still exist, and if so where can I find them? I'm hopefully going to be able to visit the area next year, so would gladly go wherever necessary to look at them. Can anyone help?
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Belleek, which is famous for its pottery, sounds a likely possibility.
Do you know what religion Jane would have been?
The LDS catalogue shows 'Parochial records of Pettigo (Donegal) 1836-1881' which would cover Belleek:
"The Catholic parish of Pettigo (Carn or Templecarn) formerly included the civil parishes of Templecarn and Belleek. Belleek is in county Fermanagh; Templecarn is partly in Fermanagh, but chiefly in Donegal. There were chapels in Pettigo, Lettercran and Belleek."
If these are the records you want you can order the microfilm from your local LDS library for a small fee to be viewed there.
If Jane Quinn wasn't Catholic the above records will be no use and other possibilities are Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc.
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Thanks for that. I can guess she was Catholic, as her English marriage was in an RC chapel. So I will take a trip to our local LDS centre.
I'd still like to see the originals when I visit Ireland. Anyone know where they would be kept?
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Hi Nigel
Did you manage to get to Belleek? The last I found out, years ago, was that our gr gr gr grandfather Patrick Quinn wasn't listed as officially in the police.
Regards
Debbie
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Hi Debbie
Yes I did visit Beleek. A beautiful place, but sadly with no information whatsoever about Jane. There is a Mary Quinn of an age that could have made her Jane's mother living in the area (shown on the Griffith's Valuations), but no proof she is actually related in any way.
I also visited the Belfast archives (PRONI) and spend a day burrowing through all their relevant records, but still came up empty.
Since then (2009) I've monitored every available new release of online Irish records. Plenty of mentions for QUIN / QUINN but as yet nothing that obviously fits with our family. So to date I'm no further forward.
I note your comment " Patrick Quinn wasn't listed as officially in the police. ", but does that cover the English, Northern Irish AND Eireann police forces? Beleek is right on the border so there's every possibility they originated in Eire.
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The only Quinn I know of in the area is a Ballyshannon man. Ballyshannon is, if you remember 6 miles from Belleek and is in Co. Donegal.
There is another Belleek(s) in NI. It is in Co. Armagh and also one in Mayo. Hope this might be of some help.
I could ask 'Eamon' - our local Newsletter, he knows just about everyone and their family.
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There is another Belleek(s) in NI. It is in Co. Armagh and also one in Mayo. Hope this might be of some help.
Thanks. Though I would never rule them out, based on the limited information we have, mainly from census records (see my first post in this thread) the Fermanagh Belleek is the most likely.
I could ask 'Eamon' - our local Newsletter, he knows just about everyone and their family.
Any help would always be very gratefully received ;)
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Hi Nigel
A long way to go to beleek from New Zealand. I was in Dublin in January and nearly went there but I was only there for the weekend and it would have taken well over 2 hours, so decided not to.
I was also looking today for the marriage of Charles Smitherman to Elizabeth but can only find Charles smitherman marrying jane Quinn in 1866: their daughter Susan was born in 1865 . . . Couldn't find the death of Elizabeth either. It must have been a hard life - poor Mary onion, with Richard dying the year Mary Ann was born and then dying herself when Charles and Eliza were so young - then he being in the alms house with his grandmother when he was 13. I wonder what happened to Elizabeth and the 3 children and was he a widower, as it states on his wedding certificate . . . I ordered the marriage certificate of Ellen allin and William Curtis for Gravesend 1876 - you may have done this. It would be lovely to nip back in time and find out what really went on.
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I was also looking today for the marriage of Charles Smitherman to Elizabeth but can only find Charles smitherman marrying jane Quinn in 1866: their daughter Susan was born in 1865 . . . Couldn't find the death of Elizabeth either. It must have been a hard life - poor Mary onion, with Richard dying the year Mary Ann was born and then dying herself when Charles and Eliza were so young - then he being in the alms house with his grandmother when he was 13. I wonder what happened to Elizabeth and the 3 children and was he a widower, as it states on his wedding certificate . . .
Hi. Yes Elizabeth is a puzzle. All we know is that she said (1861 census) she was born in Holloway (Middx) around 1832. But I've never found a match for her there (yet). On a visit to Tonbridge I did check burials there with the council, but no luck with that either. So whether she did actually marry Charles (or just lived with him) is hard to say. But interestingly, I can't find him anywhere on the 1851 census, so perhaps he spent some time in London?? Maybe Eliza returned home and died there??? Not that I've found any evidence for that either.
One correction though - Charles and Elizabeth had no children that I know of. Daughter Susan was actually Charles and Jane's child, born before their marriage. I have Susan's birth certificate. Charles and Jane had 7 children. Not sure who you are referring to in your comment " I wonder what happened to Elizabeth and the 3 children ".
I ordered the marriage certificate of Ellen allin and William Curtis for Gravesend 1876 - you may have done this.
I haven't. Does it confirm they are the right couple?
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I note your comment " Patrick Quinn wasn't listed as officially in the police. ", but does that cover the English, Northern Irish AND Eireann police forces? Beleek is right on the border so there's every possibility they originated in Eire.
There was no Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland in Patrick Quinn's time- all Ireland was part of the U.K. It was the custom for policemen not to be posted in the county of their birth and if married/upon marriage not to be posted in the county where their wife was born. So, if Jane Quinn was born in Fermanagh it's likely that both her parents were born, and possibly married, elsewhere.
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There was no Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland in Patrick Quinn's time- all Ireland was part of the U.K. It was the custom for policemen not to be posted in the county of their birth and if married/upon marriage not to be posted in the county where their wife was born. So, if Jane Quinn was born in Fermanagh it's likely that both her parents were born, and possibly married, elsewhere.
Thanks. That's useful background I wasn't ware of.
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There's lots of information online if you google 'history of ric in ireland', etc.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-irish-constabulary/
Not sure what the comment "Patrick Quinn wasn't listed as officially in the police" means but hopefully Debbie will expand on that.
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Hi Nigel
I realise Susan was born to jane and Charles in 1865 prior to their wedding in 1866. I thought on the 1861 it says Charles and Elizabeth, with their 3 children aged 4 and 2 years and 1 month. Also funny that Charles and Jane didn't marry til 1866 - maybe he was still legally married to Elizabeth in 1865 but she died the following year enabling him to marry Jane - who knows.
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I thought on the 1861 it says Charles and Elizabeth, with their 3 children aged 4 and 2 years and 1 month.
No, not unless you are looking at a different census page to me. Just Charles and Elizabeth, living in High Street, Tonbridge. They do have a lodger (my assumption - actual relationship not recorded) "William Thomas, unmarried, 46yrs, Labourer, born Croydon".
If you do have a different census page let me know. We should sort out the correct one.
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Morning Nigel - it was from something I saw at the weekend which I thought said Charles and Elizabeth were living in st Giles, Westminster with their 3 children - I'll try and find it but I must have got it wrong if they were in tonbridge high street.
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Had Nigel. This girl is what I had seen in your notes:
th … - View Family
Find marriage registration
by: Nigel Osborne
Note: 22/1/2007 - Looked at 1856 St Giles 1b/397 Charles Smithem & Elizabeth May. Then found them (plus children aged 4,2,& 1mth) on 1861 census at St Martins in the Fields, Westminster.
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Sorry predictive text gone a bit strange at the moment.
Re Patrick Quinn not being officially in the police I remember talking to someone in Belfast years ago who looked him up in belleek area but there was no trace. I may have who it was on my family tree maker notes but my PC takes so long to boot up I don't use it any more - I must invest in a new one some time! He thought maybe he was a private detective . . .
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It's quite possible that even if Jane was born in Belleek that her father Patrick Quinn wasn't in the police there but elsewhere.
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I have just got the marriage cert back for 16th August 1856 with William Curtis aged 34 years - looks like bargeman, of west street, Gravesend - father deceased with name of Samuel - a labourer. Ellen Allin aged 35 years spinster - no job of maybe Princes Street, Gravesend - father Joseph allin, deceased - plasterer. He signed with a mark. She wrote her name. In the presence of Mary Ann Smith and Richard someone.
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The old spelling of Belleek in Armagh was baleek. I am told this is Irish and pronounced roughly Ball Lough , which has an unfortunate pronunciation in English . It was anglicised to Belleek and subsequently an S was added to distinguish it from its name sake in Fermanagh .
There was a Patrick Quinn living there in the 1840's .he was a farmer .
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http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/armagh/military/ric-armagh-1840-1.txt
There was a Patrick Quinn listed in the Royal Irish Constabulary records and he came from Armagh , unusually he was Catholic