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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: Windsor87 on Thursday 13 November 08 22:37 GMT (UK)
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Hello all,
Just a general question.
Does anyone know what the Sheriff Clerk of Banffshire actually did?
Was he a factor on an estate or something? I have looked but have failed to come up with an answer.
In particular, I am interested in Patrick Rose (1780-1844) who I assume became Sheriff Clerk on his father's death in 1807.
I'm just interested as to what he actually did.
Hope someone can help.
regards
Windsor87
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Today this is an official in the Sheriff Courts and it seems likely that Rose was the same. Where did you look? If you Google "Sheriff Clerk" there is a mass of information on the web where you can check this out.
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I have some information on Patrick Rose.He's my ancestor too.What do you have on him already?
flst
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Hello flst,
I don't really have too much on Patrick Rose.
I know that he was born in King Edward on 12 November 1780.
He died in Banff on 2nd July 1844.
My connection to him is that he and Anne Forsythe had an illegitimate daughter, Mary Rose (c.1802-1858), my greatx5 grandmother.
Unfortunately when I viewed Mary Rose's death certificate of 1858 about 1 year ago, I seem to have comepletely overlooked the fact that Patrick's occupation was 'Sheriff Clerk'. So you can imagine my surprise when I was reviewing old documents and realised what his occupation was.
Patrick's father, William Rose, was also a Sheriff Clerk of Banffshire probably from 1801 until his death in 1807. I have reason to believe (but very little proof) that William was the factor to the 2nd Earl Fife. Patrick's mother was Mary Robinson (1757-1838), the daughter of a tweed manufacturer.
On Patrick himself, I have very little information. An inventory of 1844 shows that he left £87 sterling of worldly goods when he died, as well as a contested life insurance policy worth £1,500 sterling.
Hope this can be of some use to you? I will be doing some research on the Rose family connections tomorrow. I will let you know if I find anything.
regards
Windsor87
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The Sheriff's Clerk was basically a Civil Servant who was a cross between the head of administration for the Court and a personal assistant to the Sheriff.
The status of the clerk depended largely upon the status of the Sheriffdom and in some smaller areas may have only been a part time job.
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The Sheriff's Clerk was basically a Civil Servant who was a cross between the head of administration for the Court and a personal assistant to the Sheriff.
The status of the clerk depended largely upon the status of the Sheriffdom and in some smaller areas may have only been a part time job.
I see. Thanks for the information, Falkyrn.
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I'm now pretty sure that Patrick's father was the factor of the Earl of Fife. If it is, indeed, the right William Rose, we may be in luck:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&id=cRE4JDKKeMsC&dq=henrietta+tayler&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=G3hQkAPyMR&sig=tICSD0DbzaDJJ77hiIBX3_PqTpk&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
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Yes,it is the correct William Rose.He married Mary Robinson on 2 Jan 1773.They had at least 12 children.I also have a copy of the inventory of Patrick's. I am sure Mary Rose was his illegitimate daughter.Her mother was Anne Forsyth.From information I got from the internet,Patrick Rose married Maria Theresa Wemyss on 18th December 1815,at Craighall.This needs to be further checked out. I also found out a lot by googling his name.That's a great book you found!I'm sending you a pm with some more info on this particular Rose family.
flst
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Here is the man himself, Patrick Rose (1780-1844).
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd116/Windsor87/PatrickRosePortrait-1.jpg)
Unfortunately it is not a very good copy. The book from which it was taken is a reference only book, so I had to have it scanned at the University (their scanners are really only meant for texts).
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Hi Windsor,
I know its an old post, but I have this on Patrick, and if you go to my rootsweb pages you can find more on his siblings and ancestors...................
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SRCH&db=heedrapper&surname=A
Patrick Rose, had an illegitimate daughter, Mary Rose, to Ann Forsyth in about 1802. Patrick Rose was the fifth child of William Rose and Mary Robinson. He received his early education in Banff before being sent to Edinburgh at age 17 to study law. “Though only a year younger than his brother Alexander, who was completely ruined from his earliest youth by injudicious spoiling and extravagance, Patrick was from the beginning brought up as a poor man’s son. Though he never seems to have had the charm and affectionate nature which distinguished the three younger brothers George, Andrew, and Hay, and though in after-life he was involved in financial disaster for himself and others, yet in his youth he was certainly “the industrious apprentice”, and never brought sorrow or disgrace on his parents and family, like the three wild soldiers, William, John and Alexander”. When Patrick concluded his studies in Edinburgh, he returned to Banff in 1801, where he resided for the rest of his life. From 1804 until his death in 1844, he retained the position of Sheriff-Clerk of Banffshire, a position his father William Rose had secured for himself and his son from the 2nd Lord Fife. It was Patrick and his elder brother, Rose-Innes, who carried out much of the correspondence in trying to pay off their father’s debts even before his death. It was Patrick who saw to it that his father’s land was sold off in 1804, and Patrick who tried to sell his father’s two voting certificates after his death. In 1815 Patrick married Maria Wemyss. By all account the marriage was not a happy one. The couple separated at one point, Maria leaving Patrick to live in France with the children. She returned to England after Patrick’s death where she died in 1875. The financial disaster spoken of in the above quote is a reference to Patrick’s worth at death. An inventory of 1844 shows that on death, his belongs were valued at 87 pounds sterling and 6 pence. The inventory also tells that there was a life insurance policy worth 1,500 pounds sterling being disputed. It would appear that Patrick did not keep his payments up to date, and as a result the company refused to pay out on his death.
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Hi Windsor,
I know its an old post, but I have this on Patrick, and if you go to my rootsweb pages you can find more on his siblings and ancestors...................
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SRCH&db=heedrapper&surname=A
Patrick Rose, had an illegitimate daughter, Mary Rose, to Ann Forsyth in about 1802. Patrick Rose was the fifth child of William Rose and Mary Robinson. He received his early education in Banff before being sent to Edinburgh at age 17 to study law. “Though only a year younger than his brother Alexander, who was completely ruined from his earliest youth by injudicious spoiling and extravagance, Patrick was from the beginning brought up as a poor man’s son. Though he never seems to have had the charm and affectionate nature which distinguished the three younger brothers George, Andrew, and Hay, and though in after-life he was involved in financial disaster for himself and others, yet in his youth he was certainly “the industrious apprentice”, and never brought sorrow or disgrace on his parents and family, like the three wild soldiers, William, John and Alexander”. When Patrick concluded his studies in Edinburgh, he returned to Banff in 1801, where he resided for the rest of his life. From 1804 until his death in 1844, he retained the position of Sheriff-Clerk of Banffshire, a position his father William Rose had secured for himself and his son from the 2nd Lord Fife. It was Patrick and his elder brother, Rose-Innes, who carried out much of the correspondence in trying to pay off their father’s debts even before his death. It was Patrick who saw to it that his father’s land was sold off in 1804, and Patrick who tried to sell his father’s two voting certificates after his death. In 1815 Patrick married Maria Wemyss. By all account the marriage was not a happy one. The couple separated at one point, Maria leaving Patrick to live in France with the children. She returned to England after Patrick’s death where she died in 1875. The financial disaster spoken of in the above quote is a reference to Patrick’s worth at death. An inventory of 1844 shows that on death, his belongs were valued at 87 pounds sterling and 6 pence. The inventory also tells that there was a life insurance policy worth 1,500 pounds sterling being disputed. It would appear that Patrick did not keep his payments up to date, and as a result the company refused to pay out on his death.
Thats interesting.
I could have sworn I wrote the above passage. ???
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Hi Windsor,
You may well have done, someone sent it to me a couple of years ago, but I forget who it was, (perhaps it was you??)
There is book called "The Domestic Papers of the Rose Family" Edited by Alistair & Henrietta Tayler, in which Patrick is featured. Chapter 8, Pages 117-131, some other interesting stuff about him there too.
Bill
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Hi Windsor,
You may well have done, someone sent it to me a couple of years ago, but I forget who it was, (perhaps it was you??)
There is book called "The Domestic Papers of the Rose Family" Edited by Alistair & Henrietta Tayler, in which Patrick is featured. Chapter 8, Pages 117-131,
Bill
Hi Bill,
I think you must have got it from one of my contacts - I have sent out this information sheet to two or three people. I'm glad to see its being used to help people.
I own a copy of the 'Domestic Papers of the Rose Family'. Its currently out on loan to one of my contacts. ;D
Michael
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Hi Windsor,
Thanks, I will ammend my worldconnect page, to include you as author.
Bill
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Hi Windsor,
Thanks, I will ammend my worldconnect page, to include you as author.
Bill
Thats alright, Bill.
I have had a look at your website. I am very interested in the information you have on Patrick's spouse, Anne Forsyth. I have failed to find anything about her (birth, marriage or death). The only proof I have of her existance is her name on her daughter's death certificate.
Could you give me more information on Anne Forsyth please?
Michael
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Windsor87, according to the link heedrapper gave us Ann Forsyth was born 1781 & died in 1841 in East Retford,Nottinghamshire. Will need checking out I reckon!
flst
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Windsor87, according to the link heedrapper gave us Ann Forsyth was born 1781 & died in 1841 in East Retford,Nottinghamshire. Will need checking out I reckon!
flst
Thats why I'm enquiring - Nottinghamshire seems a bit out of the way. But then I suppose the Sheriff-Clerk of Banffshire may have wanted to get rid of her.
With regards to his illegitimate daughter Mary Rose, I am convinced she was 'looked after' by Rose relatives in Aberdour. Mary Robinson (widow Rose) was based in Boydlie, and one of Patrick's sisters married into the Gordons of Aberdour. I only need to find some actual proof.
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I clicked on the link you provided for the book about the Rose family & searched for Nottingham.On page 174 I found that Mary Robinson's family had mills at Nottingham & Papplewick. One brother returned north & founded cotton & stocking mills in Banff. Two of the family members became Provosts of Banff. Perhaps Ann Forsyth did end up in Nottinghamshire?
flst
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I have an birth extract from the OPR in Fordyce 29 March 1814,for Ann Rose, [ my direct ancestor] The Father is listed as Mr P Rose,and the mother is Margaret Rhind. [Illegitimate birth apparently] I was led to believe that this gentleman was Patrick Rose.