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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Chezz on Wednesday 03 December 08 02:18 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for John Lamont born 1885-90 he married Elizabeth McGuire born 1892 in Greenock Scotland.
John died, do not know when or where just know it was Scotland.
They had three children Margaret,John and William.
After John died Elizabeth sailed from London to Australia in 1920.
I think Elizabeth was pregnant when she left,she gave birth to
a son in Sydney NSW in 1920 named George.
Chezz.
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Chezz
welcome to rootschat
Have you tried SP for the marriage
that would give you John and Elizabeth's
Parents names
there is one marriage in Greenock for John Lamont and a Lizzie MacGuire 1909
Elaine
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Hi Elaine,
I have that marriage certificate but the ages and dates do not fit with what i have here,and thank you for helping me.
Chezz
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Hi Chezz,
The marriage Elaine has found is the only one in Scotland between a John Lamont and a *liz* (to pick up Elizabeth, Lizzie etc) M*cGuire.
How far off are the ages/dates? It could be a clerical error or perhaps Elizabeth/John were not truthful of their ages. :-\ 2-3 years was not all that much back then.
hume24
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Hi Chez
I have checked SP for births for John there are four between 1885 and 1890
there is one in Greenock 1885
and one in Gourock 1890
the one in Greenock has the middle name Creath
the one in Gourock has the middle name White
the other two are one in Johnstone/Elderslie 1888
and one in Renfrew 1885
do you have any other info that may help in the search
Elaine
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Hi Hume 24,
There ages mainly for Elizabeth,on the marriage cert was 19 and on her death certificate it says she was married at 16.
Thats if i have the right death certificate.
I am waiting to get a couple more death certificates for Elizabeth.
Thank you for your help.
Chezz.
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Hi Chezz,
It was really not unusual for death certificates to have incorrect information. It was mainly because the person had been told the wrong information or, because of the circumstances, made errors while telling the registrar.
As Elaine says, any more info. that may help in the search? You have got some children's names for John and Elizabeth ... any idea when (and where) they were born? Scottish certificates would note the marriage date for their mother and father. :)
hume24
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Chezz
does the death cert you have
have Elizabeth's parents names on it
Elaine
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Hi,
Yes the death certificate has parents named,John McGuire and Margaret Harkins.
Margaret had been married before to a McLlhenny no first name.
John and Elizabeth's Children were Margaret born 1910-12,(my grandmother)
John born 1913 and William born 1915 all in Greenock.
When Elizabeth came to Australia in 1920 i think she was have a baby as I have a Great uncle George born 1920 in Sydney NSW,and John Elizabeth's husband had died do not know when or where or how.
I started to look for Scots in the first world war but had trouble trying to find a site to go to.
Chezz.
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Elaine,
What is the difference between Greenock and Renfrewshire.
My great uncle on his army records put his birth place as Greenock Renfrewshire Scotland, was that right.
Chezz
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yes Chezz that is right
Greenock is one of the towns that makes up Renfrewshire
Elaine
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Elaine,
Thank for that i was a bit confused.
Chezz
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Hi Elaine,
I have just been looking at all of my posts here and i missed the one where you looked up John Lamont birth and found second names.
Could you please tell me about the one in Renfrewshire 1885.
I want to thank you and Hume have both been a great help.
Chezz.
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Hi Chezz
You have said who Elizabeth's parents were, from her marriage and death certs, but you haven't said who John Lamont's parents were. Hopefully John can be found on the censuses for 1891/1901 with family to help you then be more certain about his birth and know where to look for this certificate.
Monica :)
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From the information you have on Elizabeth, and her age in 1909 at marriage of 19, this looks a possible entry for her in the 1891 census - everyone showing as born in Greenock:
John McGuire 41, Ship Yard Labourer
Margt McGuire 40
Ann McGuire 4
Elizth McGuire 1
Address: 59 Dalrymple St, Greenock
Not easily seeing them as yet on the 1901 census index :-\
Monica
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Chezz
To help you get your head round counties/parishes, have a look at these links:
www.scotlandsfamily.com/county-map.htm
www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-maps.htm
Monica
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Hi Monica,
On the marriage certificate it has John Lamont's parents as
John Lamont and Agnes Cathcart from Greenock.
Chezz.
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Hi Monica,
Just had a look at the maps there great thank you its nice to see where your family started.
Chezz.
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Chezz
Can't easily see anything for John Lamont with those parents in Renfrewshire in 1901. There are some entries but not in that county.
There is however a death showing for an Agnes Cathcart/Lamont in 1928, b. 1862, in Gourock Renfrewshire which you could follow up on.
If John Lamont was of Irish decent, he may not have come over to Scotland until after the 1901 census, I say that also because I cannot easily see a marriage for parents on Scotlands People with those names.
Monica
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Monica,
Thanks for that, I grew up thinking that my grandmother came from Ireland then my uncle told me she came from Scotland so that might be where the Ireland part comes into it.
Her Grandfather might have been Irish.
I now will start to look into that, thanks again for your help.
Chezz.
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hi Chezz
the Renfrewshire one's parents are John Lamont and Catherine McLaughlin
Elaine
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Hi Monica,
Well we do not have a Catherine that I know of so their not related either.
It is so hard to find this family,but never mind I'll keep looking.
Thanks.
Chezz.
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Following up on the Agnes Lamont/Cathcart death Monica found, here are the details:
Agnes Bridget Lamont, widow of John Lamont, labourer, 66
d. Jan 2nd 1928 at 14 Inverkip Road, Greenock
parents - John Cathcart, labourer (dec.) and Mary Cathcart m.s. -- (also dec.)
cause of death - cerebral haemorrhage
registered by William Lamont, son, 41 ? Street, Greenock
Only possible I can see in 1901 - age at marriage was 25, so born about 1884. Here 18, so c. 1883. Matches up pretty well.
Address: 6 Laird Street, Greenock, Renfrewshire
Agnes Lamont, f, head, 38, -, b. Ireland
John ", m, son, 18, gaswork labourer, b. Ireland
William ", m, son, 6, scholar, b. Greenock
Will try and find William's birth to confirm.
hume24
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Can't see William's birth, but he is registered under William Cathcart/Catchcart Lamont on marriage and death. :-\ He married Bridget Ferrie in 1920 and died 1972 aged 76 (born c. 1896) in Greenock. Marriage cert. confirms parents' names.
hume24
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Hi Hume,
Thank you for the information,the worst of this is that every family keeps giving the children the same names.
Now if i have it right.
John Lamont married Agnes Cathcart their children
were John 18 and younger son William 6.
Is that right.
Why I ask is John 18 would be my great grandfather who married Elizabeth,they also had a John and William.Their sister
Margaret is my grandmother.
Would you be able to find out for me where John 18 died please. I just know its suppose to be Greenock.
So this clears a few things we were arguing about family here not long ago about where we started and i kept saying Ireland so I will have to tell my uncle i was right.
Thank you Hume for all your help,you and Monica are treasures.
Chezz
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Have searched and searched for a possible death for John and nothing likely is appearing. :-\ Do you know if George (b. 1920) was definitely John's son? And what the last known addresses of Elizabeth and children were before they went to Australia?
Few war and service returns' deaths on SP ... maybe killed in action during the First World War? :(
hume24
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Hume,
We are not sure, not even his son is sure.
George's son also called John Lamont was 18months old when his father died in WW2. and he does not know much about him or the family.
This family of mine was not real close and I am trying to fix that.
Yes i thought of that to and have tried to get the records if any, but i did not try SP but i will.
Thank you so very much i have more now than i did.
Chezz.
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Hume,
Thank you very much this is so wonderful.
Cheryl.
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Hi Hume,
I have been going over the emails and I was wondering who it was that had the Cerebral Haemorrhage, was it John Lamont or Agnes.
Also was there a date for Williams death.
Chezz.
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Hi Chezz,
Replied to your PM. :)
hume24
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Sorry for a very late reply. I have just started doing some research.
Hi Chezz I am William Cathcart Lamonts grandson, so I must be related to you. I am from Greenock and I remember his death in 1972. I have some History that you may not be aware of: William Cathcart Lamont had 4 sons, William, Joseph, Patrick and John and 2 daughters, Eleanor and Agnes, there were 8 grandchildren, 6 in the UK and 2 in Canada, (John and Joseph Lamont). He was in the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders at Gallipoli and lost a leg in action. I was aware that there was an Australian connection, but was unsure of the detail, I have done a little research as I have been doing business across AUS and I though I might meet up with a long lost relative.
Anyway if you want more details, photographs etc, please contact.
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Hi Blakeneyhill,
I am so glad to hear from you,I have been trying to do the Lamont side of my tree and I keep coming to a dead end,I was looking for some one to help me find where my great grandfather John Lamont died.
I seem to have John older (my grandfather) than William C. Lamont would this be true.
The place we all came from is called Redfern,NSW,Australia,is this the area that you have been searching?
I would like to give you my email address but I don't think we are allowed to put it on here are we.
This is so great.
Chezz.
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Chezz :)
To send a Peronal Message(PM) just click on the little green scroll to the left of the post of the person
you wish to contact
Email addresses and personal information , such as details of living persons , can then be exchanged
Note - new members will have to make 2/3 post before they can use the PM system
Looks like blakeneyhill has not been on Rootschat since Dec. 2011 :(
ev
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I have just started researching my Scottish heritage and my grandmother - Margaret Jardine nee McGuire (b. 1881) is the sister to your Elizabeth, I believe - same notations on death certificate. I found Margaret Harkins ((?b.1855, Middle or New Parish Renfrew) father and mother Patrick Harkins and Margaret McKinnon) marriage to a William McIlhenney (6Sep1869 High Church Glasgow) and they had two daughters Rose b. 2 July 1870, Greenock Renfrew and Mary b. 5 Nov 1873 Greenock Renfrew.
I was unaware of the Australia connection - Elizabeth would have been my great aunt - her nephew - my dad (James Jardine) came to Australia in about 1928 (18 years old approx).
I don't have any paperwork except the death certificate at this stage. :)
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I should have added that I haven't found the link yet from McIlhenney to McGuire ?death ?divorce marriage?
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Hi KAJ58,
I'm sorry but I don't think its the same family as I do not Have any Jardines in my family and Elizabeth's sister was Annie McGuire,and she married into the Bradbeer family.
I have John McGuire aged 36 Labourer,residence 34 Shaw Street,Greenock., married to Margaret McLLhenny(widow) aged 39 of the same address as John McGuire.
Margarets parents were John Harkins & Mary (Straine) Harkins.
John & Margaret Mcguire were married on 2nd Feb 1886 St; Lawrence Chapel,Cartdyke,Greenock.
John & Margaret had two daughters Annie (maybe Anne) b.1887 died 1933 Australia & Elizabeth b.1889 died 1931 Australia, both born in Greenock.
Regards,
Chezz.
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Interesting - My grandmother (Margaret McGUire)'s death certificate has John McGuire (Shipyard Riviter) and Margaret McGuire (nee Harkins) previously McElhenney as parents. Margaret McGuire (grandmother)was married to William Harkness Jardine in Glasgow in 1908.
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Hi,
Just had a look at my tree and I have Margaret (nee Harkins,McLLhenny) McGuire born 1853,she had a sister called Bridget born 1849 no Elizabeths as sisters.
The only Elizabeth (my great grandmother) is Margaret & John McGuire's daughter.
I really wish that your Margaret McGuire was part of my family.
Chezz.
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Thanks Cheez,
I was hoping this might solve a gap in the tree - thought I was on to something. I think I really need to find my grandmothers birth certificate - Margaret Jardine (nee McGuire). Her death certificate has her 60 years in 1941 when she passed away and I know she was married in Glasgow on 12 September 1908.
I haven't been able to find any more information yet so if anyone has any info it would be nice.
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Hi, have you viewed Margaret's marriage certificate? It's available on scotlandspeople website. It will give her age, address & names of parents.You can then try & wirk backwards through the censuses.
flst
P.S.Welcome to rootschat!
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Thanks for that - need to buy some more credits and I will do that! I wasted for the first 30 looking at the wrong this - inexperience!
This is a fun and addictive pasttime I must say.
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Hi KAJ58 and Chezz
I think from the info you have both recently posted, you are likely both talking about the same families. KAJ58, the death cert details for your grandmother certainly have the same details as Chezz has for her ggrandmother Elizabeth's family you would think.
Some further ideas for research:
You have the 1886 marriage for John McGuire and Margaret Harkin/McIlhenny with the relevant details.
You also have the entry (not sure if you have viewed the actual marriage cert) for a Margaret Harkin to a William McIlhenny. Both these certs (together with any relevant death certs) will let you confirm parents for Margaret. There is no confirmation for now that John McGuire was actually your grandmother Margaret's father, KAJ58, given the date of the marriage (1886).
Working through possible censuses. Can't really see anything for the McIlheny family for 1871. For 1881, there is this possible entry (a whole listing of names, I am putting a link together because of the surname):
Margaret McIlhemy, 29, hawker, prisoner, b. Greenock (marital status not showing on the transcript I am looking at)
Margt McIlhemy, 10 months, a prisoner's daughter b. Greenock
Address: 3 Nelson St. West Prison, Greenock West
There is a birth showing in 1880 in Greenock for a Margaret McIlhenny which likely fits with the above census entry? Details from this cert would help to confirm whether the right entry for young Margaret. What would also really help is confirmation of Margaret's birth place, from her 1911 census entry after her marriage.
There is also a death showing in 1879 in Greenock for a William McIlhenny, born c. 1846. KAJ58, you should be able to confirm it is the right entry from parents' details given for him and wife's name's etc.
For 1891, after the 1886 marriage and the birth of the two girls you have Chezz, including your ggrandmother:
John McGuire 41, Ship Yard Labourer
Margt McGuire 40
Ann McGuire 4
Elizth McGuire 1
Address: 59 Dalrymple St, Greeonock
No sign of young Margaret there in 1891, but a few possible entries for example for a Margaret McGuire in an orphanage in Glasgow, born in Greenock.
Monica :)
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A little bit more....
If William McIlhenney has died and wife Margaret and baby Margaret are showing at West Prison in Greenock West for 1881, was wondering what had happened to Rose born in 1870 and Mary born in 1873.
I think there is a death for Rose (showing indexed on SP) in 1870 in Greenock. Can't see a death for Mary before 1881, so wonder whether this is her:
Mary McIlhenny, 7, inmate, born in Greenock
Address: 72 Abercromby Street, Calton, Glasgow.
Madam Mc Nally. Superioress of the Catholic Orphanage for Females
Possible entry for her back in Greenock for 1891, working at the Richie household:
Mary McIlheney, 17, Gen Dom Serv b. Greenock
Address: 1 Dock Breast, Greenock
Struggling with 1901, unless she has taken to using her mother's second marriage name:
Mary Mcguire 27, head, Slick (?spl) Factory Worker b. Greenock...could this be Mary McIlneney?
Maggie Mcguire 20, sister, Wool Millworker b. Greenock...is this your Margaret, KAJ58?
Annie Mcguire 16, sister, Wool Millworker b. Greenock...could this be first born of John and Margaret?
Address: 1 Waverley Lane, Greenock
Chezz, I struggled very early on to find John and Margaret on the 1901 census...still struggling! Have you been able to make headway on that entry?
One thing that might help is perhaps to cross check on witnesses names at the marriages of Margaret and Elizabeth (also Annie and maybe Mary) to see who acted as a witness, hoping to pick up on one of the (half)sisters names.
Monica
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:-\ Chezz, one possibility for your ggrandmother in 1901:
Lizzie Macguire, 10, boarder, b. Greenock
Address: Smyllum Orphanage, Lanark
Smyllum not a great place (not that any of these were...) www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,468949.0.html
See also,
I have a contact address for the Smyllum Orphanage records, where my relatives, who lived in Leith were sent even though it was out of county. I have found them to be very helpful.
The Archivist
Sisters of Charity of St Vincent De Paul Provincial House The Ridgeway
Mill Hill
London
NW7 1EH
The other cert that would be good to check is the likely death entry for mother Margaret. There is a death entry for a 59 year old Margaret Harkins/McGuire in Gourock, Renfrewshire in 1909. Again, apart from all the useful info included on Scottish death certs, the informant's name for her death registration might also help here.
Monica
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Thanks Monica,
Great information - so much to digest and confirm. Do you know if it is possible, if it turns out to be the Margaret in prison, to get a copy of the transcript or what she was in there for.
Can't wait for the weekend to have more time! Thanks everyone!
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Hi KAJ58,
I'm sorry to as it would have been good to finish that side.
Good hunting,I hope you find your McGuire's.
Chezz.
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Thanks Monica I had not read that when I wrote to KAJ58 and told her good hunting but just maybe we might have the same family,as I had no idea that there could have been more sisters for my great grandmother,if I have read this right.
I will try and work this all out and see where I go from here.
Thank you again.
Chezz.
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Hi Monica,
With all your help I have found a few things - Margaret McIlhenny lived or her husband died at 29 Shaw Street, Greenock; John McGuire and Margaret were at 34 Shaw Street, Greenock when they got married. William died 10 months before Margaret (my Grandmother) was born.
Do you know how I would go about finding the Prison records?
Chezz, I sent you a separate message - Lizzie McGuire was a witness at Margaret's wedding at Glasgow in 1908 - Her address was 142 Waddell Street, Glasgow - both parents John and Margaret are listed as still being alive.
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Hi KAJ58,
I'm bit confused as for some reason back in those days they kept using the same names.
Your grandmother was Margaret who McIlHenny or McGuire,was she Margarets and Williams daughter or Margaret & Johns daughter which would make her my great grandmothers sister is that right.
Chezz.
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Hi Chezz,
I am confused too - The birth registration has William McIlhenny listed as father but says "illegitimate" and he died 10 months before she was born ??? I am going to try and find some more information out through prison records because that is where she was born. I know the address listed for John McGuire and Margaret McElhinney(Harkins) marriage (1886) was very close to the address for William and Margaret (in 1879) when William died.
I think Margaret McGuire(my gm) was either a sister or half sister to your Grandmother but yet to be proved.
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Regarding possible prison records for Margaret Harkins McIlhenny, the main place to check would be the National Archives of Scotland site, here www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue I have checked already but couldn't really see anything for her unfortunately. Local newspapers may also have carried something? Margaret may have been in for something that we today consider really trivial, hard to say really until you find the records....
One thing that might help if they can be found are any application for poor relief that Margaret may have made. With William having died when he did (or even before), life may well have been hard. Also, after she came out of prison, life would have been tough.
Potentially the search would be for her under her names and address up to when William died and then address for when she married John McGuire. The checks can also be made for Margaret's daughters. We expect lots of additonal issues given:
As possibilities, we have daughter Mary McIlhenny (or at least who I think is her daughter) showing at a Glasgow Catholic orphanage as an inmate in 1881. We also have Lizzie in 1901 also at Smyllum Orphanage, Lanark. We haven't as yet found young Margaret in 1891.
I think these are obviously signs of a troubled family and economic situation where likely care had to be applied for the girls in their early years.
The main issue with following through on possible poor relief applications for all the family are that these are not available online and need personal look up. Not sure what is kept where now as there have been some recent changes on locations of archives. I would imagine that the Mitchell Library in Glasgow and or the Watt Library in Greenock would be good places tp start any enquiries and searches.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thank you for the information.
I have been looking at what you sent before and Annie McGuire was on Elizabeth & John Lamonts marriage certificate in 1909.
I have Annie born 1887 & Elizabeth born 1889 in Greenock but going by the census under neath, Elizabeth should have been born 1890.
I have a census paper 1891 here.
John McGuire 41,
Margaret McGuire 40
Ann McGuire 4
Elizabeth McGuire 1
That was at the addresss 59 Dalrymple St, Greenock.
You are a very big help Monica and I want to say thanks.
Chezz.
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Bits are coming together aren't they :) So, we believe that Annie was witness to Lizzie's wedding and Lizzie was witness to Margaret's wedding. We just need to find Mary's wedding to finish the links ::)
Chezz, don't worry about the census ages showing for Lizzie. These often can be out a bit, a year or so is normal, sometimes more. The key thing is always the birth cert for confirmation of age, after that, it is in many cases a circa on different types of records!
So, in summary of where I think you both are so far:
Margaret Harkins was born in Greenock and married first William McIlhenny in the late 1860s (has anyone checked this cert to compare it to the 1886 marriage cert for Margaret to John McGuire?). Two daughters born from that marriage from IGI. We think the first, Rose, died as a baby (death cert available to view on SP). We haven't found William McIlhenny in 1871 (don't really know much about him so far). A possible entry for Margaret working in 1871.
We then jump to 1881. William has died a few years earlier. Margaret has given birth to young Margaret (William not the father as she shows as illegitimate on her birth entry) and both show as living at West Prison in Greenock for 1881. NAS is not showing records for Margaret Harkins (or we haven't found any as yet). We think we have daughter Mary McIlhenny showing in a home in Glasgow for 1881.
A gap in the early to mid 1880s. We then jump to the second marriage of Margaret Harkins to John McGuire. We have the census entry for them in 1891 with new children Annie and Lizzie. Mary we have likely working back in Greenock...Margaret we haven't found yet. There is however in 1891 a census entry at the same home we found Mary McIlhenny at in 1881:
Margaret McGuire, 10, inmate b. Greenock
Catholic Orphanage for Females at 72 Abercromby Street, Glasgow
1901 we think the three (half) sisters Mary, Margaret and Annie are living together, using McGuire surname, in Greenock. Lizzie, the youngest, we think is at Smyllum in Lanarkshire. We haven't found John McGuire or Margaret Harkins for that census.
The early 1900s bring the marriages of Lizzie and Margaret that have been found and also the death of Margaret Harkins we think in 1909 in Gourock (not sure if this has been checked). No idea what happened to John McGuire and when and where he died?
If I could wish anything for both of you to do with your family research....it would be to find poor relief records for them ;)
Have a look at these TV films on the Mitchell Library www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,522720.0.html. Parts 5 and 6 in particular will give you a flavour of what can be found on poor relief records.
Monica :)
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Thank you so much Monica and yes thats about what I have here.
I will have a look at the TV show.
Does KAJ58 get this message to?
You are a gem for doing this as I am not that great at finding things lol.
Thank you again Chezz.
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Hi Chezz
Yes, KAJ58 should get all the messages from here if notifications are switched on.
Let us know how you get on :)
Monica
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Hi Monica and Chezz,
Yes I am seeing all the messages and am excited to do a bit more searching but unfortunately my job is getting in the way of my fun!
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Real life often gets in the way of fun research...boo ;D
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Hi,
Well I have been searching a bit today and came up with this from the Latter day Saints site.
William McIlhenney & Margaret Harkins married 16th August 1869 at Greenock Old or West,Renfrewshire
And also all of this:
Birth of a Margaret McIhenney to a Margaret McIlhenney - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ3V-PBT
To William McIlhenny and Margaret Harkin:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ4X-B29
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ7F-DF6
If you notice Margaret McIlhenney has no father written on hers. I tried to find marriages but had no luck with any of the sites I tried, also can not find Rose's death. Also the spelling of the last name keeps changing.
Chezz.
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Hi Chezz,
I have the death registrations for Rose and William - I also have Margaret Harkins (McILhenny) birth 1880 and McGUire Harkin Marriage 1886 which I will send through to you on an email.
The first Margaret you mention was too old for my Grandmother and too young for GGm.
Now I just have to watch all the videos and work out how to access the poor relief records while in Australia.
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An update,
The wonderful people from National Archives in Scotland have been able to find Margaret Harkins prison record(s) - note the plural. Interesting that they noted that her age varied greatly each time from 1873 to 1880 - In 1880 she was sentenced to 10 days during which time my Grandmother Margaret was born.
More digging to do now!
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Thats great I have spent today looking for the prison records but could not come up with any thing your doing well.
Cheryl
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That is a great find at NAS!
What was Margaret Harkins sentenced for? 10 days....must have been for something really, really minor given that in those times you could be transported for stealing some apples :'(
Monica
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Monica,
The one in 1880 was for breach of the peace - the others were mostly drunkenness and a minor assaults early on. Very interesting. I wondered if alcoholism was genetic - my dad liked a tipple too much!
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What a life, eh ::) Thanks for the update :)
Monica
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I am William Cathcart Lamonts grandson
Hi blakeneyhill, I think we may be second cousins - William's wife, Bridget (nee Ferrie) was my great aunt. Would love to fill in a few blanks on the Lamont side of our tree!