RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: chafox on Saturday 06 December 08 12:26 GMT (UK)
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yes, I know!!
This is one of those old boogie stories told to children to scare them at bedtime
But..... does it have some basis in what people saw happening?
I have been wondering what it really means to outsiders when they see how the family unit can form in a traveller society.
I have now got two examples of spinster women ( or widows) who have around them a chain of children that don't have the same father.
1861 in Short Acre Walsall
Joseph Bentley labourer at iron works (57) b Lane End Stfs
Eliza Bentley (42 or 62) b " " "
Elizabeth Whitehouse (gr-dr) (32) b " " "
Mary (gr-dr) (11) b Cofield Warwickshire
Charles (gr-son) (8) b " "
Sarah ( gr-dr) (5) b " "
Isaiah (gr-son) (3) b " "
Samuel (gr-son) (6mo) b " "
Sarah was my 3x gt grandmother.
Elizabeth was the mother of her and the other four grandchildren, who were sired by Joseph's sons, or other members of the Bentley family. I know Sarah's dad was a John Bentley, and in 1864, Elizabeth married an Isaac Bentley.
* incidentally Cofield is the lower part of Sutton Coldfield, and mostly Common Land, I believe.
My other example is from the family of Alice Taylor, who married the Isaiah above in 1903 in Rushall.
Alice said her father's name was Frederick Smith. Her son Henry married Isaiah's daughter Christina three years before, and said his father's name was Charles Taylor.
* so Isaiah married his daughter's mother-in-law!
But Alice Taylor is in both the 1891 and 1901 censuses with a number of children that by the look of it, can hardly be the sons and daughters of one man, Charles Taylor, as in both censuses she describes herself as a widow.
I'll give the 1891 census
It's in Nottingham
Alice Taylor (34) charwoman widow b Wansted Essex
Fred ( 13) coalminer b West Ham Essex
Henry (11) schoolboy b West Ham Essex
Charles (8) " " b Walthamstow
John (7) " " b Edmonton
Emily (6) schoolgirl b Nottingham
I have no information about Alice Smith, Charles Taylor, or any of the older children form 1881 or earlier censuses. I suspect that she may not have married Charles Taylor before 1881 ( there are a number of candidates from 1882 to 1886, so that most of the children above may not even be Charles' children,) and I think what I may have found is another family of children of complex parentage travelling together with their mother - she has two totally different children in 1901, and is still a widow.
I would love to know more about Alice Taylor or Charles or her origins, but can't make the breakthrough.
Could this show two examples of families were the wife has been bearing children for more than one male member of a travelling family, or cohabiting with different men and being free about the surname that she adopts to describe them?
What I wonder is if this behaviour may have been seen by the communities that the travellers passed through, as gypsy women stealing children, because they were perceived as all belonging to different fathers?
What do you think?Any one else seen this sort of behaviour in their family history?
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sorry i am not rplying to your exact topic but i see you have davis landkey devon in your interests?were they travellers?if so i may have a connection.cathayb
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Hi Chafox
You might have something there! my grandfather went to the Boer war for 3 years when he came back my aunt was one!! and my grand dad just carried on as if it wasn't unusual, after that they had my mother.
My aunt knew grand dad wasn't her father (so I have just found out) so it wasn't a family secret and I have a few distant cousins that were 'adopted' well I don't think there was adoption in the early 1800's !
Lorraine
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quick reply to Cathayb,
sorry my Davis family weren't travrellers, they were farmers of Landkey.
My travellers were in the Kirby, Whitehouse and Bentley families in the Midland Counties.
Lorraine,
were your grandfather and family travellers?
I'm really interested in knowing if what I'm finding with my ancestors is true generally, that they were very free in forming their relatiionships amongst their own kind, and that it didn't matter to them whether they married relatives or relatives of former "partners".
I think if there's a custom going on then it'll be easier to see when it's happening as I look for them, and it'll be easier to get round the lies that they tell in order to hide the fact from people who consider that they are breaking taboos.
As for 'adoption', I think that in a travelling family there isn't such a taboo either.
Although my great grandmother had one child by a lover, before running off with him, and left my grandfather to bring up all of the other children. She was a Kirby, and of traveller stock. I have a portrait of her, done when she was in her twenties, and she is stunning.
My gt grandad must have had enough of it all. he emigrated to America.
But the interesting thing is that my gt gran's sister Fanny married my gt grand's lover's brother, so again they were even finding their lovers amongst close relatives - I can actually trace the family links to mutual ancestors.
Terry
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Hi Terry
Yes my family have been travellers for 9 generations right back to 1750 (thats as far as I have traced so far) my Grand mother did become a flattie (lived in a house) when my mum was about 5, but I have many distant cousins that still travel today!
I'm afraid that morally our ancesters weren't perfect, my grand parents never married and quite a few didn't in those days (in normal society it would have been quite shocking) but that's the way they were. Some married after they had finished having their children, I have quite a few of those. Also I have found in my research that as the families all travelled together they married each other too!
Lorraine
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Sorry to reopen this subject so long after it closed but I only just saw it.
I have two seperate Romany ancestor who both were childless and then acquired children in their fifties. There is no indication the children were stolen at all but they both acquired children around the same time.
One got a little girl (they?) called Ann Munday (they were Mundays) and the other got a young boy called Alfred Hardiman. They might well have been relations or friends children that they then adopted (or adapted as the census says :D).
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For some reason my grandfather seems to have had no children with his first wife. From 1871 onwards to 1891 there is a string of "nurse children" in the household, some related, some apparently not. I believe them to have been orphaned children who were brought up by these people in an informal adoption,adoption was only formalised in the late 1920s. So far as I know there was no gypsy link in the family.I think the myth of taking children is just that, like the other myth that a gypsy caravan was burned with the dead owners possessions inside it. No caravan remains of any description have been found during any road widening scheme in the UK; unless of course someone knows differently.
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For some reason my grandfather seems to have had no children with his first wife. From 1871 onwards to 1891 there is a string of "nurse children" in the household, some related, some apparently not. I believe them to have been orphaned children who were brought up by these people in an informal adoption,adoption was only formalised in the late 1920s. So far as I know there was no gypsy link in the family.I think the myth of taking children is just that, like the other myth that a gypsy caravan was burned with the dead owners possessions inside it. No caravan remains of any description have been found during any road widening scheme in the UK; unless of course someone knows differently.
Apologies for my lack of knowledge about the subject but I am pretty certain (nay absolutely certain) that it was common for the caravan of a deceased traveller to be burnt as part of the ritual of death. I think I have even seen pictures of it happening. I am ashamed at my lack of knowledge on the subject though. :-[
I agree about the children thing being a myth with obvious motives. I am sure the children my ancestors unofficially adopted were probably orphaned Romany children although the Alfred Hardiman story is a bit of a strange one as I can find him and his 7 year old brother with their biological parents on one census - on the next census the brother is nowhere to be seen (not unusual as he would have been 17) but the father is on his own claiming he is widowed and the mother is also on her own somewhere else. God knows what went on there. ???
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I think this will run and run, interesting that there are pictures of burning caravans. The point I would make is that were they burned by the roadside, or off road, in a field say? There was a fire in a caravan many years ago on an unofficial site at Marshgate Doncaster,I think causing the death of (2?) children, but whether it was connected with a previous death I don't know.
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Dear Honey-roma88,
I've been facinated to read some of your posts concerning the Romany origins of the Morgans of Corsley. I am related to them through Charlotte Ann Morgan (b. 1852 in Kensington) the daughter of William Morgan (b. 1819 in Corsley). Could you let me know how you know for certain that they were travellers? Thanks very much!
Best wishes
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I think this will run and run, interesting that there are pictures of burning caravans. The point I would make is that were they burned by the roadside, or off road, in a field say? There was a fire in a caravan many years ago on an unofficial site at Marshgate Doncaster,I think causing the death of (2?) children, but whether it was connected with a previous death I don't know.
Burning the caravan is a tradition that still gets carried out today. It is burnt with all the deceased possessions in it. Then family and friend would normaly provide the widowed with a new trailer. originally they would be burned in the trailer at the end of a morning period. the deceased would be brought home and a wake of at least 24 hours with open coffin would take place. This all arks back to the time romanies left india/pakistan.
Kushti bok, shane.
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Shaneooo, Perhaps you can answer my question? Are the caravans burnt off road or by the roadside? If off road, then this would account for the statement by Highways professionals that the remains of a caravan has never been found when road widening schemes have been progressed.
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hi, i know that they are pulled away to a safe distance from other trailers before burning, i know of no reasons not to burn alongside the road but i can't say ive seen it done. i reckon its a case of putting them where it will cause no damage.
shane.
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I would like to add a little about the custom of burning homes & possessions. My great grandmother's caravan & belongings were burnt after her death in 1988 even though it was sited in my grandparents back garden! My gran did this because she remembered it being done all through her life and was a familiar custom to her although my Mum was upset by it as she was of a different generation. So I can confirm that it is no myth.
Also, on the subject of children, to Romanies their children are their life and they feel great love & compassion to all children. Many times I heard my parents say that if they found an abandoned child they would keep it. So I can imagine Romany women opening their meagre homes to any unloved or uncared for child. But to take a child from their parents- I can't imagine it for a minute unless there was concern that a child was being cruelly treated.
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I think the last 2 posts illustrate the point I made, caravans are burned , but off the road.
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Returning the theme of 'odd' children; This has really struck a chord with me, today.
For one thing, my Gt. Aunt (Gypsy) had a child by extra marital affair whilst her husband was away in the Great War. The Father was a Gypsy. It seems she disappeared for the period of the obvious (this being the way it was done back then. No one spoke of such things. It was just 'not noticed') and returned childless. Then, after a period of time? She popped up with a little girl! :o
I've no idea what excuse was 'formally' given for fetching an infant home, out of seemingly no where. What interests me though it that this girl (Nellie) was given a well known Gypsy surname. But one with no known connection to our line and certainly not that of the childs true Father.
I can't disclose names here, I'm afraid. Only, direct descendants are still very much alive. I'd love to know what Nellie's own daughter now knows of her own ascendancy.
And now the thing that actually sparked me off about this whole subject: I've just been actively working a branch of my family which has left me completely confused. These people are and always have been completely 'normal', settled people. They are Butchers, almost by family inheritance and have absolutely no Gypsy connections. Except one .....
I've come to recognise the strangest phenomena; The vast majority ~ virtually all ~ of the men I've studied 'just happen to' marry girls with well known Gypsy surnames! At first I never noticed. Then I did notice, but dismissed it. But, finally, it became such a pattern it started doing my head in!
Then I was given a photo of one of the latest. Ann Newbury. It's a family group shot and so I have others of the moment to compare. And Ann is obviously either 100% Romani Gypsy, or she's off another planet entirely. Her skin's almost as black as her hair and her facial structure is in a class of its own.
What to make of all that? God knows. But, here's the point that brought me here: In buying up Certification on this lot, I've hit a complete pile up. Back in 1800 and something, there's a married couple sat there surrounded by children they list on the Census as 'Sons' and 'Daughters'. Yet virtually all of them, on their own BC's, demonstrate disconnected parantage! It's like these two have gathered in kids from friends, family, neighbours and called them their own.
I'm actively trying to unravel more of this even today. But, does this lend us a clue? Could the 'Informal Adoption' mentioned above, have been more common place than we now realise? In both Travelling and Settled communities, that is. Or might there be something more to all these Gypsy named women? Might a 'tendency' have come across through a possible link there?
More questions than answers, as usual, that's for sure! :-\
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Steve, Your recent posting raises some very deep and significant questions, which I shall have to think about before I make a detailed reply. For now; my grandfather seems to have had no surviving children (if any at all) with his first wife, only a string of nurse children, and at least one informal adoption of his illegitimate nephew. It seems that she had the fertility problem as which his second wife he had two children in four years, notwithstanding an age gap of over 30 years, and he being over 70 when my father was born On my mother's side, maiden name Ayres, in at least three of the last 4 generations there has always been at least one child very dark skinned, and with very dark hair and dark brown eyes, my mother was partially like this as she had dark hair blue eyes, but with a brown segment in her right pupil. One of her sisters was very dark, the other very fair. I believe too that Ayres is a gypsy surname, though the family was to my knowledge always settled.
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Dear Steve,
your post relates exactly to the kind of situation that I have been finding in my family since I fist "twigged" the travelling connection.It's why I posted the first post in the series. Nice as all the talk of gypsy caravans, etc, is, it really was straying from what I was searching for.
I had hunted high and low for my 3x gt grandmother's beginning, and I find her in the type of family that you mention. With children of unknown or dubious parentage, appearing in the same caravan, staying with relatives, and family surnames becoming mixed together, and marriages with all the daughters of one family seeming to marry the sons of another cousin family.
I have been thinking through this a lot.
What I have witnessed in certificates and other records is:
(a) the children are often illegitimate, as we understand them. But there may be family connections between the respective fathers. My 3x gran's alleged father was of the same surname as the man her mother eventually married.
In one census mother and children were living with a separate family member, with that same surname. I suspect brothers, and uncles had her living with them as she "passed through" the family ( and could a traveller have had two women in his caravan at the same time?) - hence the adopted children.
(b) later a son of my 3x gran's sister married one of my 3x gran's daughters, and three other daughters married three brothers, who were also his first cousins. First cousin marriages appear to be the norm.
(c) because of illegitimacy the girls, when they married, invented "false fathers" or lied about the surnames of their fathers, in order to cover up the fact, and also that - in one case- her husband's mother was going to marry her dad, or even lied about their own surnames to disguise their "gypsy" origins.
(d) It may even be that the usual practice of the woman adopting the partner's surname was not the same as it usually works. But it is certainly possible that the woman, and the men, might not have been really sure of their surnames.
Terry
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Hi,
Like everyone else I believe the stories about gypsies taking children to be false.
However a few weeks ago I was reading the memoirs of Annie Beatrice Champion who later became a nanny (for amongst other families, the Bagots at Levens) and she describes her sister Izzy as being stolen by gypsies. She was recovered six weeks later. This would be in the 1860s.
Of course if a child was taken it's possible that gypsies were immediately blamed thus perpetuating the myth.
One other thing, does anyone know why gypsies were supposed to take children? Surely it would be another mouth to feed, another child to clothe.
Brie
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I think Brie it is a case of gypsies being blamed for everything. Some years ago I worked at Doncaster loco for BR. There was a persistent problem of gypsies burning cable in the vicinity. One day there was a lot of smoke from burning in the vicinity and I was asked to call out the council's emergency environmental unit. This I did and the fire was extinguished. Shortly afterwards my call was returned by the head of the unit, who told me it had been dealt with, but was on railway property and had been started by the railway civil engineers, who wanting to get rid of some toxic rubbish had burned it, knowing the gypsies on the neighbouring site would be blamed. I still wonder how many incidents in the immediate area were gypsy started, and how many by the engineers.
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I would like to add a little about the custom of burning homes & possessions. My great grandmother's caravan & belongings were burnt after her death in 1988 even though it was sited in my grandparents back garden! My gran did this because she remembered it being done all through her life and was a familiar custom to her although my Mum was upset by it as she was of a different generation. So I can confirm that it is no myth.
My mother spent her early years in a gypsy living van. My grandparents were Irish, living in the north of England. When they married, they were lucky to get somewhere to rent - most places had signs up "No Irish, No children, No pets". When the landlady realised my grandmother was pregnant, she threw them out - being Irish was bad enough, a baby was too much.
My grand-dad met a young gypsy man in the pub who was very upset. He had been brought up in the van by his grandmother who had just died. He should have burnt the van but couldn't bring himself to do it. My grand-dad offered to buy it and the offer was accepted. My Mum and her two brothers were born in the van. My grandmother insisted they find somewhere else to live after grand-dad set the van on fire - accidentally - for the third time. Maybe the young man's grandmother was trying to put things right from beyond the grave!
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i remember when we were travlin in the 60s a wagon being burnt, and t was off the road
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I think two things give rise to the " Theft of children myth".
Firstly, Romnichal children are often born fair haired and turn dark as they get older. when gypsy children are seen with their swarthy parents, questions are asked. This was highlighted in the tragic Ben Needham case. False hopes were raised each time a blond infant was spotted among Greek Gypsies.
I'm pretty certain that thefts do take place in impoverished parts of Eastern Europe though.
Secondly it has always been the gypsy way to take in orphans. The head of one of Britains biggest construction companies was raised in this way. The adopted child is given full Romany status. This is one of the nicer points of our often misunderstood culture.
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Just to pretty much echo Vince's words, really; Now that I'm a bit more up together than I was when I tried to phrase this in the early hours! :-\
I've read a lot of the historical stuff. Good. Bad. The just plain factual. I've actually never yet came across a recorded instance of Gypsys 'stealing' a child. Simple as that. They were accused of stealing just about anything else ye care to imagine. Often, seemingly, found guilty by default of just being Gypsys. Then hung, transported of imprisoned. But, never, in my experience, for stealing a child.
As has been asked above; Why on earth would they? What is anyone going to do with a child? Feed the damn thing like some kind of pet? It just wouldn't make sense.
However, I recently did read an account of a child being Adopted ~ and raised and cared for, much as Vince states. This was a kiddie who had found himself in a Work House, where he was so brutally treated that he ran away and found, or was found by a family of Gypsys.
The Mother took him in, scrubbed him clean and fed him well. When 'The Authorities' passed by, the lad was kept out of sight and thus protected till the heat died down. And he too grew up to think of himself ~ and be accepted ~ as a perfectly normal Romany.
Incidentally; When I popped out, with my - then - curly blonde hair, it's a wonder my black haired Dad never strangled some guy! ;D
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All my family including me had curly b lond hair as small children, it darkens up or in my case vanished later on. My grand daughter 2 yesterday has blonde hair, her mother's is black so was her father's before it retreated. Any news on surname Ayres yet?
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Any news on surname Ayres yet?
??? Sorry, Roger. I hadn't realised ye were waiting on me there :-[
Ayres? Blimey. Possibly one of the better known / documented names out there? Quite often associated with Showmen / Fairs too.
The name's recorded from way back (1500's! :o) and is still going strong out there. Crops up all over the place. But there is a notable cluster around the central southern counties. Not to be out done though, they also appear as far apart as Gloucester and Yorkshire though. Pretty well ubiquitous. Every family should have one! ;D
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Thanks for that Steve, try two more, Brignell and Cornwell. The Ayres family has lived in the Bottisham/Lode area of Cambridgeshire, appox 5 miles north of Cambridge since at least 1700, and very frequently has cross married with the Cornwells. This probably accounts for at least one dark skinned person appearing in most families in each generation.
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Interestingly, mate; Cornwell isn't listed ~ though, as I'm so often at pains to point out; That of itself disproves nothing. However, Cordwell is. Sussex and Wiltshire. I don't suppose a randomly picked up phone directory would be exactly lifting with either name?
Brignell, I can't really come too close, in this listing. Bridge, Bridges and Bridgen are as near as it gets. Bridgen is 1891, Essex and Norfolk though ..... 'Interestingly' close on two counts there then. Similarity of name and geographical closeness.
Actually, Bob lists two more books. Each, seemingly, pretty much straight directories of Gypsy names. I wonder ....?
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Thanks Steve, What are the book titles please?
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Gypsy Names for Genealogists Vol 1: Surnames. Vol. 2 is Forenames. Self produced in 2000.
I strongly suspect though that the same information was later (2005) brought together in the book I have (Here. (http://www.robertdawson.co.uk/product.php?f=29))
I'd also draw ye attention to one of Bob's pages; Here. (http://www.robertdawson.co.uk/genealogy.php)
:)
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Thanks for the links......i like the sound of Bobs book!!
I was told by my grandmother she was from a travellers background.......i have coopers, ayres, Harris (who was a hawker)......plus more names that have cropped up here.....
I don't want to assume that they are from the travelling community, more work is needed yet.....
Regardless......one way or another i now have more respect for the travelling community, which can only be a good thing.
Cheers Steve.......and thanks for the info you always impart in such a good friendly manner......which goes for many others on here too, who are only too willing to help those of us in need.......:)
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Northern Girl; I was born a Southern Bloke myself. But I still grew up knowing the (local) Cooper's and Harris'. My own Auntie bringing Ayres with her.
Now, according to Bob, he can only find the Harris' on the road till 1915. Interesting and worthy of note in itself. See; I knew Harris' who would pass for 'picture book Romany Gypsys' (I mean; Just add huge ear ring and violin!). Yet they were settled.
For all that though, while they lived in houses and gave off no overt signs of their heritage, one could always expect them to turn up at the annual Fairs! ;)
What I think it is ~ although it's never before really crossed my mind to try and look into it before ~ I think it's something about the war / post war period. Something happened then. Maybe the building of the council estates?
Only I have this educated idea, in the corner of my mind, about how a whole wave of Gypsys came in off the road about then. That generation took to houses. There they hunkered down and got on with burying themselves amongst the traditionally settled population.
Only thing is; It was also ~ I suspect ~ that generation which started, if not outright forsaking, then certainly 'putting their roots away'. And they taught their children ('our' parents, maybe) to be good little Gaujo's and fit in.
Thus, by the time 'we' came along? Our own people really remembered only a 'normal' life ~ and maybe the whispered tales of what our Grandparents grew up with.
What does that leave us to tell 'Our' children? Well; Maybe something along the lines of, " There's always been a whisper, amongst the older folk, that we may be descended from Gypsys. And, it must be said, some bloke in a forum is pretty insistent that many of the older names I know of in our past are names known to have been commonly used by Gypsys back then. "
Unfortunately, 'our' kids response to such a suggestion these days is just as likely to look confused for a moment. Then blurt out something like; " What? Pikeys?!? >:( "
So much has been lost to us :(
I have no kids of my own. If I did, I'd have had Grand kids by now ::) But I know one thing for sure. If I were walking a grand child of mine down the road and a Bedford or (these days) Mercedes truck came by, laden with scrap metal and showing a tow bar? If any grand child of mine said, " Look, Gramps! Pikeys! >:( ". I'd gently correct the little toe rag;
" They'll be Gypsys, son. They're gathering what people in houses have slung out and left to mess the place up. Your Great Grand parents did that. So did I ..... "
Let the little sod choke on that one! ;D
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Thank you Steve, Looks like that's another £16.00 quid gone.Reading your last posting, I like your style!!
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My 95 year old dad (he's in great health, mentally and physically!) told me recently about how the Gypsies would take kids. In fact, he said was walking to school one morning, around 7 years old or so, he spotted a caravan of gypsies coming down the road. He said he got down as low as he could in some tall grass and thankfully they didn't see him as they passed by. He was pretty scared!
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My 95 year old dad (he's in great health, mentally and physically!) told me recently about how the Gypsies would take kids. In fact, he said was walking to school one morning, around 7 years old or so, he spotted a caravan of gypsies coming down the road. He said he got down as low as he could in some tall grass and thankfully they didn't see him as they passed by. He was pretty scared!
: My advice to you would be to contact the police and ask them if there have been any cases of children being taken by gypsies. If this myth had any basis in reality the authorities would have some information on it - after all they're quick enough to blame travelers for everything else. I think you'll find it's utter garbage. Sadly children were told these stories so often they grew up believing it. The reason your grandfather hid was because of the false perception not because he was in actual danger. The truth is that gypsies traveled in family groups, and children were brought up by the whole community. When parents died or travelled away for work other family members would take care of the children, especially if they had none of their own. There's really no mystery
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Someone stated that gypsies came from India originally. Is this really so and i so when and how did they arrive?
I had thought they originated in Egypt but I can remember an argument between a friend and with a Povindah in Quetta,Pakistan, a very beautiful and proud young gypsy girl who was in fact in the right. Incidentally she was very fair skinned. Sandra
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Sandra, this website has one of the clearest and accurate descriptions of the path of the Romany gypsies from India that I've seen - http://danny.oz.au/anthropology/notes/gypsy-history.html - although bear in mind that there will always be some disagreement between experts of some of the finer points . ps. further to my previous comment, unlike in gorja communities illegitimate children were not looked down on but brought into the family group and raised by all the members and often stayed with the group when the mother eventually married so it wasn't uncommon for additional children to be informally adopted by aunts, uncles, grandparents, etc
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My 95 year old dad (he's in great health, mentally and physically!) told me recently about how the Gypsies would take kids. In fact, he said was walking to school one morning, around 7 years old or so, he spotted a caravan of gypsies coming down the road. He said he got down as low as he could in some tall grass and thankfully they didn't see him as they passed by. He was pretty scared!
: My advice to you would be to contact the police and ask them if there have been any cases of children being taken by gypsies. If this myth had any basis in reality the authorities would have some information on it - after all they're quick enough to blame travelers for everything else. I think you'll find it's utter garbage. Sadly children were told these stories so often they grew up believing it. The reason your grandfather hid was because of the false perception not because he was in actual danger. The truth is that gypsies traveled in family groups, and children were brought up by the whole community. When parents died or travelled away for work other family members would take care of the children, especially if they had none of their own. There's really no mystery
You could be completely right! I was just passing along the story. :)
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My 95 year old dad (he's in great health, mentally and physically!) told me recently about how the Gypsies would take kids. In fact, he said was walking to school one morning, around 7 years old or so, he spotted a caravan of gypsies coming down the road. He said he got down as low as he could in some tall grass and thankfully they didn't see him as they passed by. He was pretty scared!
I don't know where you're located, buy my mother used to tell a story about her grandmother.
Suposedly, when her grandmother was a child, she was kidnapped, by gypsies, from her Pennsylvania farm.
They found her, a few hours later, basically unharmed, but with all of her hair cut off. Apparently, she had very long hair, at the time. This was during the mid-1880's.
I always wondered if this story was true, although my mother swore it was.
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My 95 year old dad (he's in great health, mentally and physically!) told me recently about how the Gypsies would take kids. In fact, he said was walking to school one morning, around 7 years old or so, he spotted a caravan of gypsies coming down the road. He said he got down as low as he could in some tall grass and thankfully they didn't see him as they passed by. He was pretty scared!
I don't know where you're located, buy my mother used to tell a story about her grandmother.
Suposedly, when her grandmother was a child, she was kidnapped, by gypsies, from her Pennsylvania farm.
They found her, a few hours later, basically unharmed, but with all of her hair cut off. Apparently, she had very long hair, at the time. This was during the mid-1880's.
I always wondered if this story was true, although my mother swore it was.
He lived in Indiana.. I think it was Miami County, not really sure at the moment.
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As a child the travellers used to 'arrive' on my Grandfathers farm just before harvest time, they parked in the bottom field and I would get up one morning and their vans would all be set up, clothes being dried on lines strung between trees, a fire lit and you could smell 'breakfast' cooking. I was told to 'leave them alone because they are private people' meaning I couldn't go and see them unless invited.
Harvest time was always done very quickly I only met them when we took food/drink down to the workers, apart from once going to see them with my Grandfather and was loaded up with a basket full of home made jams, syrups, preserves, eggs, bread, potatoes and swede my Nan had sent, the basket returned equally full of scones, biscuits and rabbit.......... waking up one morning and no sight of them at all except one caravan, which clearly the adults knew all about( but not me).... that evening being woken by bangs and watching from my bedroom window the men had returned and the caravan was burning it was a beautiful one too with cut glass windows...... That is the first time I saw burning of a van and years later mentioned it to my Nan who said the owner had died.
Many years later I worked for 'An Munia Tobar' teaching gypsy/traveller children within their community and during that time had many conversations about 'caravan burning' on the death of the owner not knowing if it was myth or truth, I was told it was true and they liked to keep their culture as best they could and it was a male only 'event' like much of their culture is very separate gender specific the trouble was/is that cultures clash and the last thing they want is the fire brigade to arrive and put the fire out, apprarently that defeats the purpose of doing it and just like many traveller families they only tell you what they want to, so I never really got a definative answer of what exactly is the purpose, although I suspect it is a culture passed for centuries as traditional 'deaths' were by open air cremations along with worldly goods and that is not something the law allows for in the UK/Ireland
The local council were trying to clear one of the unofficial sites which had been used for years and it took several years for them to do it
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Where were the vans burned? Many years ago when a County Councillor I had a conversation with my county engineer about this. He was very sceptical about the practice as in his experience of very many road widening and straightening schemes etc he had never come across ashes in land to be used by the schemes. The story is by the road side; yet that is the problem according to my former colleague.
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The one that I saw as a child was in my Grandfathers field, which was about 20 foot from the road, the one I saw burnt in Belfast was just at the top of the Springfield Road as the side of the road where it stood and where they had lived in it ( like an outer road which by passes Belfast City centre) so a very busy rush hour road.
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Thanks, I could understand the lack of evidence in road widening schemes if it was the usual practice for the vans to be burned 20 feet from the roadside; but your case from Belfast appears to contradict that.
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It is very different in NI than the rest of the UK, not unusual to see here
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Thanks for that.