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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: Swanida on Monday 07 February 05 04:13 GMT (UK)
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I have traced my roots back to Richard Bithell, born about 1786, in Monkard, near Harwarden, Flintshire, Wales. His wife's name is Mary Welbank. His son's name is Thomas. Thomas was born 22 Jan 1812, in the same town as his father. Thomas was captain of a whaleing ship. If anyone has any information about Richards parents I would appreciate hearing about it. Thank you, Linda
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Hello Linda,
Had a look in the Hawarden Parish registers for Richard and Thomas. Are you sure they lived in Monkard or could it be Mancot?
I found Thomas's Baptism, 28 Feb 1812, son of Richard Bithell & Mary (CARN) of Mancot. Born 22 Jan 1812.
Also, Baptism 25 Sep 1796, Richard Bithell son of Richard & Mary (CARNE) Saltney.
20 Oct 1805, Edward Bithell son of Richard & Mary (Carn) Mancot.
Burial, 8 May 1810, Edward Bithell son of Richard & Mary (CARNE) Mancot, Age 4 Years.
Marriage 14 Dec 1790. Richard Bithell & Mary Carne Both of this Parish (Hawarden) Witnesses, Samuel Coppack & W Deakin.
Are you sure the Richard you have born about 1786, is not Thomas's Brother born 1796 and Richard & Mary Carne their Parents. I could not see a Mary Welbank.
I hope this hasn't confused you.
Paul.
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Hello Paul,
Thank you so much for your reply. I think Mancot could be the town. I have never been able to find Monkard on any maps. I found Thomas as the son of Richard Bithell and Mary Carne on Onegreatfamily. Familysearch.org has Richard Bithell and Mary Carne with four children, Edward being the youngest. Thomas is not listed. Is there a death date for Mary Carne? My family records say Richard Bithell Married Mary Welbank about 1811. That might have been just a guess.
Linda
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Hello Paul,
Thank you so much for your reply. I think Mancot could be the town. I have never been able to find Monkard on any maps. I found Thomas as the son of Richard Bithell and Mary Carne on Onegreatfamily. Familysearch.org has Richard Bithell and Mary Carne with four children, Edward being the youngest. Thomas is not listed. Is there a death date for Mary Carne? My family records say Richard Bithell Married Mary Welbank about 1811. That might have been just a guess.
Linda
Hi Linda,
Burials.
8 May 1810. Edward. S/o Richard & Mary Bithell. Mancot. Age 4 Years.
8 August 1818. Mary Bithell W/o Richard. Fisherman. Shotton Age 52.
Thats all the info it gives you on Burials.
Shotton is about 2 Miles from Mancot.
Hope this helps.
Paul.
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Hello Paul, Thank you so much, you have been a great help. Maybe Mary Welbank was a step mother who raised Thomas after he was six years old. My Dad said my grandfather told him a story about a Robert Bithell, but we don't know what relation he is to us.
Linda
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Hello Linda and Paul
I am looking for a Richard Bithell born about 1800 (my ggg grandfather), so the son of Mary Carne born at Saltney 1796 is of great potential interest.
My man was the father of William Bithell, born about 1820. I have William's marriage certificate from 1840 where he is noted as "of full age". His wife, Ann Worrall, is 18. They were married in St Oswald's parish church, Chester. William's father is shown as Richard Bithell, Flatman.
I have so far been unable to find a birth record for William, but maybe the Hawarden records would be helpful. Is it possible for you to look, Paul?
Many thanks
Frank
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Hi Frank,
On familysearch.org it says Richard Bithell, born in 1796 married Mary Jones
on 22 May 1820. No children are listed. That is all I have found so far.
Linda
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Hi Linda,
Thanks for your reply. I found the baptism for William Bithell on 7 Oct 1821 at St. Olave's Chester. Son of Richard (fisherman) and Mary, living in Handbridge, Chester.
The only Richard/Mary combinations I can find with appropriate dates are those mentioned in this thread. If the Mary buried in 1818 (as found by Paul) is in fact Mary Carne, the mother of my William could be Mary Jones who married Richard (born 1796) on 22 May 1820 in Hawarden.
Do you have any thoughts on what the next move should be?
Frank ???
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Hi Frank,
I found a web site on the Pedigree Resource File in familysearch.org. It is John P. Mchugh's web page. Your William is under his surname list. This is his email address: mchugh@john-dawn.freeserve.co.uk
He lives in North Wales, so maybe he could help you.
Good Luck,
Linda
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Hi Linda,
Many thanks for the info re John McHugh. I have been in touch with him from time to time and I am in fact trying to take his work a little further. He has recently found a Richard Bithell on the 1851 census, age 53, married, Fisherman, born Chester. He is a prisoner in Portland Convict Prison, Dorset. Perhaps I have a black sheep in my family! I’ll be posting in another thread a question about how to track his crime, etc.
In the 1861 and 1871 censuses I have found a Mary Bithell, married, living alone. She is aged 57 and 66 respectively, giving a birth year of 1804/5. Just about OK for a marriage in 1820. It would be good to find her in 1851.
I was unable to find a birth in the Chester parish records for a Richard Bithell in the period 1793-1809. I therefore need to test the possibility that Richard and Mary (Jones) moved from Hawarden to Chester, between their marriage in May 1820 and William’s birth in October 1821. It is not far, especially by boat. Do you have any suggestions for local records such as Fishing licences or River permits? Where are old newspapers held?
Any other thoughts on where to look next will be most welcome.
Frank
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Hello Frank, It has been about 4 years when we communicated last. You asked me about your William Bithell. I have found some info saying he really is the son of Richard Bithell born in 1796. Maybe you have found it also by now.
Best regards,
Linda
The info I found was the Bithell Family Narrative. Richard Bithell born in 1796 was born in Saltney, Flintshire, Wales.
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I've recently seen a family tree from Flintshire containing a lot of references to a family with the surname 'Bissel' (or some variation) . The family were descended from someone called 'Ap Ithel', being a Welsh noble family - Bithell would seem an obvious Anglicisation of that . I'm afraid I cannot remember where exactly I saw the tree - but it was certainly Flintshire.
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Thanks for your reply. I believe Ap or Ab means son of. I think Bithell means son of Ithell.
Linda
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Dear Linda
I noticed your mail to frank about William Bithell son of Richard Bithell/Mary Jones.
I am also interested in this line, as William, if you have any further information about William's siblings (if any) and forebears beyond Richard Bithell/Mary Carne
Kind regards
john
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Hi John,
I found a document called Bithell Family Narrative on Google. It has some pretty good history on your William and his parents Richard Bithell and Mary Jones. I think it says in the narrative that Richard stated that he had a wife and a child before he went to jail for stealing pig iron. So I think that William is an only child. Richard was born in 1796. His parents are Richard Bithell 1768 and Mary Carne 1766. The parents of this Richard are John Bythell 1731, born in Moore, Flintshire, Wales and Mary Williams 1733, born in Landilo, Carmarthen, Wales. I don't have the parents of Mary Carne. The parents of John are Richard Bithell 1717, born in Harwarden, Flintshire, Wales and Mary Pierce 23 Oct 1721, born in Harwarden, F, Wales. The parents of Mary Williams are Lewis Williams abt 1707, born in Landilo, C, Wales. Her mother's name was Elinore abt 1711 also born in Landilo. That is as far back as I know. I hope all the Richards and Marys don't confuse you too much.
Best Regards,
Linda
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Dear Linda
Thank you very much. Yes the BFN has been very useful - my link comes through William's son John and his wife Kate E.
Thank you for the information about the and grandparents of parents of Richard Bithell 1768. I had John 1731, but not the details of his and his wife's parents. Just on query though, if john was born 1731, aren't the dates for his parents Ricard 1717 and Mary 1721 too late - she'd only be 10 in 1731? Or have I misconstrued your meaning?
Do these records come from Hawarden registry?
I really appreciate your help - thanks again
John
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Hi John,
Frank says he wrote the Bithell Family Narrative, so I'm not sure if William is the son of Richard Bithell and Mary Jones. ???
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John,
Those dates are impossible. I hadn't noticed that before. Those dates came from the IGI. I have a marriage date for Mary Pierce in 1723. That doesn't fit either. Maybe John was born in 1741. I don't know.
Linda
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Hi Frank,
I saw a website called Tasmanian Convicts Index- "B" Surnames. There is a Richard Bithell on the list. Are you familiar with this?
Regards,
Linda
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Hello Linda and John,
I've just been reading through this thread and can add the following comments, in the hope that they will be helpful.
I do have copies of the Convict documents from Tasmania. I believe that the death record of Richard Bethel in 1862 is in fact the Richard Bithell who arrived there as a convict in 1853. Unfortunately, there is not enough information to tie them together fully.
The same problem occurs when linking Richard Bithell who married Mary Jones in Hawarden in 1820 to the Richard Bithill shown as the father of William in the parish register in Chester in 1821. So far I cannot find a documented link, and have eventually come to the conclusion that they must be the same person (if only because I cannot find any other Bithells to fit). When I visited the area to go to the record offices it is very clear that it is a fairly short journey (by road or by river) from Hawarden to Chester. There is also interesting support from the fact that the witnesses at the marriage of Richard and Mary in Hawarden in 1820 included Richard Jenkins, and when he in turn was married in Chester in St. John's parish on June 23rd 1821, to a Mary Bithell, a witness was Richard Bithell (he had a sister named Mary, born 1799). It gives me the feeling that they had all moved to Chester, where William was baptised in October 1821.
Similarly, there is no clear documentary link between Richard Bithell, father of William in 1821, and Richard Bithell found guilty of twice stealing pig iron in 1848 and 1850. The absence of others of that name and age encourages the theory that they are the same person. The convict also stated that he had one child and I have not been able to find any siblings for William.
I wrote the Bithell Family Narrative in order to get the chronology clear in my head, and then decided to publish it in the hope that others who were interested in this line would be able to confirm, or to destroy, these "iffy" connections. I'm therefore delighted to find that there are others looking at this thread and I hope that eventually more evidence will be uncovered. Keeping this thread alive will be a good point of focus.
Looking forward to any responses.
Frank
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Frank
Thanks for your reply and the work you've done on BFN. I think the links you have identified below are very plausible if not proven definitively.
I don't have any further information at this stage on c19 references, but
I am also interested in the children and descendants of William Henry Bithell son of John Bithell and Kate E. Clark. My great grandmother is William Henry's daughter Gertrude b1913, and I believe there were 5 other siblings including William Henry jr,b. c. 1900 Arthur 1905-1949, John Eric b 1909, Leonard b 1917 and Thomas Cecil b ? 1903. I have some information on some of their families, but if you have anything I'd be pleased to share and compare.
John
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Hello John,
Thanks for your kind words.
Have you seen this site:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/bithell/
I think I remember that you will find some of the posts there (especially from Pamela) are very relevent to the line you mention.
I am not yet aiming to broaden my searches into those further parts of my tree, but if/when I do I shall come back to you.
Regards
Frank
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Thanks again Frank. I have been in touch with a few of the contributors, but hadn't seen the thread before.
Good luck with your further research.
John
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Hello Frank,
It sounds like you are doing some very good research. What you say sounds reasonable. I live in the USA so you are closer to the area where this all happened. Keep up the good work. If I come across any information I will let you know.
Regards,
Linda
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Hi John,
I found an entry in the Hawarden Parish Register that says Richard Bithell and Mary Pierce were married on 23 October 1723. So it must be the birth dates that are wrong.
Regards,
Linda
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Hello Everybody
I do not know if it is of any help in your research, but when..........
Richard BITHELL, married Mary JONES May 22nd 1820 at Hawarden
He was stated to be a Fishmonger , and a Batchelor of Sealand, and of full age, so I don't think he was the widower of Mary CARNE.....
Mary CARNE, was also transcibed as CARR on the baptism of a son John BITHELL May 24th 1793
and Mary BITHELL March 6th 1799
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If Richard Bithell married in 1723, he must have been at least 18. I have the baptism registers for Hawarden 1697-1717, and neither he , nor Mary Pierce appear. I have used all versions of their surnames
Their marriage is there in 1723
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There is a Richard BITHELL age 40 , living at "Gorst Stacks" St Oswalds, Chester on the 1841 census. He states he is a Flatman, and born in the county. He is with a 30 year old Ester Morgan, independent, also born in County. I feel that this is William, born 1821 father, as per marriage certificate.......
Don't forget that ages were +/- 5 years in this census
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Hi Jeannie,
The Richard Bithell,born in 1796, who married Mary Jones in 1820, is the son of Mary Carne. His father's name was also Richard Bithell, born in 1768.
Thank you for your help.
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Hello John and Frank,
I found, in a copy of the Hawarden parish register, a marriage date for Richard Bithell and Mary Pierce, on 23 Oct 1723. The birth dates must be the ones that are wrong.
Linda
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http://freespace.virgin.net/jill.farndon25/B.html
You might find this of some use. It`s an index to names from Clwyd in the parish registers.
You need to cross reference the numbers before the parish name to see what Volume they refer to.
Use ctrl + f for the search box, there are many variations of the name, but a search for Bithell will put you in the right place to start.
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Hello again,
What a great resource from the Clwyd Family History group. It opens up many possibilities for tracking the Bithells in Hawarden and earlier. I shall have to get to work in the new year.
I have been working on trying to identify all my sixteen gg grandparents. It was a really good way to take advantage of the yearlong subscription to Ancestry, given by my daughter last Christmas. I still have one or two loose ends, but I hope to tie them up shortly.
I am afraid that the Bithell Family Narrative disappeared from the internet when my free account was terminated. Does anyone have a suggestion of where to publish it now? I would like it to be widely available, without incurring charges to readers, nor to me.
Frank
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I`m not sure what you mean by narrative.
I use Scribd for any stories / information I have.
There is no charge and it is up to you how you want to make it available.
http://www.scribd.com/wilcoxon92/documents
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Hi all, I'm new on here but not new to family history research.
I'm descended from Richard Bithell baptised in the parish of Hawarden in 1768. He married Mary Carn in 1790 and had 6 children by her. I am descended from both Richard, the second child, and Mary, the third child, due to the marriage of second cousins. Mary Bithell (nee Carn) died and was buried at Hawarden in 1818. Richard (b.1786) moved to Chester and married again in 1820 to Catherine Forghram. He died in 1834 and was buried at Hawarden. His son, Richard (b.1796) married Mary Jones at Hawarden in 1820. The couple moved to Chester where their son William was born in 1821. Mary Bithell (nee Jones) died in 1824. I'm not certain what happened to Richard (b.1796) after that. Suggestions that he fell foul of the law are interesting. William Bithell (b.1821) married Ann Worrall (b.1824) in 1840. According to the entry, he of full age and she 18 years of age. Actually he was 19 years and she was 16 years of age and pregnant. William and Ann went on to have many more children. He died in 1884 and she in 1886.
Hope to have answered a few questions. Interested in any more questions or any more information.
Ray
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Whoops - Noticed a typo in my post above, line 5.
Richard (b.1786) moved to Chester...........
Correction is
Richard (b.1768) moved to Chester...........
Sorry
Ray
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Hi. I realise this thread is fairly old. I have been doing a fair bit of research on Richard Bithell and his prison records so if anyone is interested let me know.
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Hi Cheshiregirl2023, I've done some research on Richard Bithell's criminal career, if one can call it that. Very interested in anything you have found. Are you related to Richard?
Ray
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Hi Ray.
Richard is my 4xGreat Granddad. I'm descended from him through his son William, then his son Henry. Are you related to Richard too?
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Hi Cheshiregirl2023, Yes Richard is my gggg grandad. Descent through son William, grandson Thomas, great grandaughter Sarah Ann Bithell (my Grandmother). Think that makes us 3rd cousins! I'm also descended from Richard's sister Mary due to the marriage of second cousins. There is a lot of information re the family on www.familysearch.org (free site) added by myself and others. Just search for Richard Bithell. You said on one post Richard remarried in 1846. Can you confirm that? I did find a possible marriage in Liverpool in 1826 to Maria Boot.
Ray
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Am out and about at the mo, doing this on phone. Will check the info and reply properly later or tomorrow. Off the top of my head he remarried in 1846 in Liverpool to an Esther Maria Williams.
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So I did find a Richard Bethel married a Esther Maria Jones nee Williams on 25 May 1846 at St John's in Liverpool.
Richard is a flatman (which I expected) and a widow (expected as his wife Mary Jones died in 1824), his father Richard is a flatman (Richard's father was also called Richard). They married by Banns. Esther Maria is also a widow, her father's name is Thomas Williams so her birth name must be Esther Maria Williams. There is a marriage for an Esther Maria Williams marrying a John Jones on 14 May 1830 so this must be her.
The other interesting bit is that in 1841 Richard is living with a lady called Esther Morgan. The name Morgan is pretty hard to read but I believe this could be Esther whom he later marries.
Another clue is that on his arrival in Tasmanian he gives his wife's name as Maria, which I think is Esther Maria.
Would love to know your thoughts. Am also intrigued on what other research you may have on Richard.
Thank you third cousin.
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Hi Cheshiregirl2023, The Richard who married Maria Boot in Liverpool in 1826 was also a flatman. I wonder if Richard married 3 times? Mary Jones in 1820, Maria Boot in 1826, Esther Maria Jones (nee Williams) in 1846. I haven't been able to find an Esther or Maria Bithell in the 1851 census when Richard was in prison in Portland. I have sent you a pm. Ray