RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: adee7 on Wednesday 10 December 08 17:44 GMT (UK)
-
Has anyone participated in Mummering either as a visitor or host/hostess?
http://modern-canadian-history.suite101.com/article.cfm/mummers_in_newfoundland
Kathleen
-
In comes I....
;)
-
....................St George
( I've seen more mummers' plays than I care to remember. A group of my friends is working on one for twelfth night, so I'll have to watch that one at least twice. )
-
Hi Scrimnet and genjen,
Thanks for responding. So, the play with St. George continues in England? Do you have any photos of the plays?
Sounds like a good time is had by all. ;D ;D
Kathleen
-
Seen loads. Morris Teams will probably be doing 'em all over the place.
Have a looke heere
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=G8lzIW2fw_Q
The ones I've seen are usually done in pubs with a collection afterwards for charity. (Morrismen are usually all quite 'mad' :D 8))
-
Thanks for the link, Silvery. :) :) :)
Kathleen
-
Seen loads. Morris Teams will probably be doing 'em all over the place.
Have a looke heere
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=G8lzIW2fw_Q
The ones I've seen are usually done in pubs with a collection afterwards for charity. (Morrismen are usually all quite 'mad' :D 8))
Oi oi oi oi!!! ::) ::) ::) ::) :o :o :o
Don't judge people by your own standards! :P :P :P :P ;)
One of the best Morris Sides I know that does Mumming at Xmas is the Moulton Morris Men of Moulton in Northants...
Actually most of the sides in Northamptonshire put out a Mummers play each year....
BTW The Morris have "sides" not teams! :D :D :D :D ;)
-
(Morrismen are usually all quite 'mad' :D 8))
Hmmph hum, she says, clearing her throat - wash yer mouth out. Most of my best friends are dorris mancers and we are all entirely sane. By our own standards
Morris "sides" or "teams" - if you can be bothered to talk morris bo****ks, there is quite a split opinion on that. Ours is a side but others have teams.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
(Morrismen are usually all quite 'mad' :D 8))
Meant it in the nicest possible way, hence the faces :) Know quite a few of 'em personally.
Sorry about the 'teams' terms :-[
-
there is a long tradition of "mumming" in ulster. this group of people perform regularly at navan fort, just outside armagh city;
http://www.armaghrhymers.com/
tony
-
(Morrismen are usually all quite 'mad' :D 8))
Hmmph hum, she says, clearing her throat - wash yer mouth out. Most of my best friends are dorris mancers and we are all entirely sane. By our own standards
Morris "sides" or "teams" - if you can be bothered to talk morris bo****ks, there is quite a split opinion on that. Ours is a side but others have teams.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
And beware the Morris Mafia...
Most of us know an awful lot of others...
And I suppose the Morris B****ks can also be seen down the seismic split that is Ring v Federation! :P :P :P ::) ;D
-
Great link, Tony, thanks. :) :) :)
I'll enjoy spending time reading it.
Kathleen
-
you're welcome kathleen :)
we were supposed to watch one of the performances the last time we visited but they scared the living daylights out off my 4 year old,we had to leave, so that put an end to that! :)
-
Most of us know an awful lot of others...
And I suppose the Morris B****ks can also be seen down the seismic split that is Ring v Federation! :P :P :P ::) ;D
You know that saying - "You are never more than ten feet away from a rat" - well I think the same applies to morris dancers. We are everywhere, so beware! ;D
Federation wins every time. :) :) :)
-
( continued from genjen)
"............a noble knight
I come to fight for England's right
England's right I will maintain
I'll fight for Old England once again!
Show me the man that bids me stand
I'll cut him down with my courageous hand!
The Moulton Morrismen came to our History Society meeting once, to speak and perform. It was packed! What really interests me is that 12 years ago we went on a Nile cruise. One night the entertainment was a group of Nubian dancers and their dances were almost identical (steps and all) to Morris. Even the stick dances!
-
Despite the theory that the Morris is a Pagan fertility rite, there is a school of thought that says "Morris" comes from "Moorish Dancing"...And came back with the Crusades...
Mind you they could have copied us!
-
There are several variations on the style of our Cotswold Morris dancing across Europe, North Africa and into Asia. My money is on the Moorish connection but I guess the source could be almost anywhere.
Our side's first attempt at a mumming play will be performed in January with half the cast being in their teens and the other half just a little bit older - fifties to seventies to be precise. ;D
One of the things I love best is that it breaks down barriers of all types. We have no sign of ageism or sexism, no concerns about who earns most money, who has the biggest house, or anything else of that nature and I count myself lucky to have hundreds of friends, all over the UK, simply because of the morris. :)
-
So the question must be asked....Do I know you???? :D :D :D
-
Which side do you dance with?
-
The Rose and Castle....Cloggies from Northampton, though the army has really done in my dancing out for a few years...I still call for Barn Dances when I can though...
I'll find a pic...
-
I do know some of Rose and Castle - have done drinking with one of your musicians! ;D
-
I expect that will be Clive then! The fiddle player...
But PLEASE do NOT confuse us with that so called Morris side Wriggly Head...
-
I expect that will be Clive then! The fiddle player...
But PLEASE do NOT confuse us with that so called Morris side Wriggly Head...
No -it's a female musician.
Wrigley Head???? Do I know them?
-
"half the cast being in their teens and the other half just a little bit older - fifties to seventies to be precise." Thanks for the 'little bit older', genjen. If I were there I'd be in that group. ;D ;D
Kathleen
-
Just to clarify, mummers are not always Morrismen.
-
Indeed we did Mummers plays at school, but...It is generally The Morris that keeps the tradition alive
-
That may well be so, but it would be wrong to give the impression that it's exclusively the case. The group that performs locally to me is not a Morris group, and neither is another that I know of.
-
( continued from genjen)
It was packed! What really interests me is that 12 years ago we went on a Nile cruise. One night the entertainment was a group of Nubian dancers and their dances were almost identical (steps and all) to Morris. Even the stick dances!
I am trying to find a direct connection between Border Morris dancing and any North African Moorish influence.
I will be very glad of any links or Youtube clips that provide the proof.
I have watched a few Nubian stick dancing clips from Youtube, and apart from the fact that there is only so much you can do with sticks, I really do not see a similarity to the Border Morris tradition.
-
There is a very different tradition of the Mummers in the Rochdale district of Lancashire, see http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=353719.0
Maybe it doesn't happen any more, but I have a childhood memory of groups of children appearing at the door, with blackened faces and dressed as charwomen, who went round the house with their dusters and brushes sweeping out the old year, never saying a word, but humming "Mmmmmm" all the time. Our Pace Egg activities took place at Easter (hence the name) and included St George, the Dragon and the Quack Doctor. There may have been Morris dancers, but I don't remember them.
-
I notice you seem to have forgotten all about Open Morris!
I don't think there is a direct connection between Border Morris and North African Moorish influences, as has been stated ad infinitum elsewhere (go on facebook if you really want to see the arguements), the face painting (often black) that is a feature of Border is traditionally said to be about disguise - it is, unlike Cotswold, a winter tradition, probably in order to gain money and you didn't necessarily want the neighbours/boss to know it was you doing it.
We are now out of mumming season and are wassailing all over the place!
-
I notice you seem to have forgotten all about Open Morris!
I don't think there is a direct connection between Border Morris and North African Moorish influences, as has been stated ad infinitum elsewhere (go on facebook if you really want to see the arguements), the face painting (often black) that is a feature of Border is traditionally said to be about disguise - it is, unlike Cotswold, a winter tradition, probably in order to gain money and you didn't necessarily want the neighbours/boss to know it was you doing it.
We are now out of mumming season and are wassailing all over the place!
I agree with you that the blacked-up border sides did so originally to avoid being recognised by bosses and by the clergy because they were, in effect, begging on the streets - absolutely necessary in many cases during the Winter months when the farm labouring jobs were more scarce than in the Spring and Summer months. I'm not getting into the blacking-up debate because, quite frankly, I am bored with it. I inhabit the world of Morris (albeit as a retired musician) and sometimes it seems that many of my friends have little or nothing else with which to fill their brains!
Wassailing events by the bucket load last weekend! I was out on Saturday, celebrating and wishing our damson orchard a good growing season. When I got home on Sunday, my Facebook page was awash with others doing likewise all over the place! :D
-
I notice you seem to have forgotten all about Open Morris!
I don't think there is a direct connection between Border Morris and North African Moorish influences, as has been stated ad infinitum elsewhere (go on facebook if you really want to see the arguements), the face painting (often black) that is a feature of Border is traditionally said to be about disguise - it is, unlike Cotswold, a winter tradition, probably in order to gain money and you didn't necessarily want the neighbours/boss to know it was you doing it.
We are now out of mumming season and are wassailing all over the place!
I bet that's fun.
I am inclined to agree with you Ggrocott, about the face blacking, but it would be good to find some sort of proof I feel. Perhaps the response to complaints about face blacking might be to start using white face paint.
-
Gillg, I can totally confirm what you say. When I was a young child I was terrified out of my mind one winter night, when a group of people, older than children, I think, who came into our kitchen, humming or mumming as you said, and swept around the table. I think they were given drink and cake before they swept out. (Perhaps that was the way to get them to go?) I also think it was somewhere round Christmas / New Year it took place - but over in Yorkshire, not Rochdale in our case.
The Pace Egg plays you mention are familiar too, and are still done each year by at least two groups touring round in the upper Calder Valley, so, quite close to the Lancashire border, and not all that far from Rochdale.
The speeches quoted seem word-for-word from these, and they are not just a Morris Tradition - the closest Morris-type dancers to that area would be the Brittannia Coconut Dancers, and it certainly wasn't them!
I think a School in the area started doing them in the 1950s, and later another group sort of "muscled in" and now seems almost to have supplanted the children/ young people doing the Pace (or Pascal) Egg plays. Years later I did a remembered version of the traditional Pace Egg Play for a young theatre group I knew, and they performed it with great aplomb.
Your account brought memories flooding back, though.
-
I am inclined to agree with you Ggrocott, about the face blacking, but it would be good to find some sort of proof I feel. Perhaps the response to complaints about face blacking might be to start using white face paint.
There is plenty of 'proof' re. blacking as disguise in both Border and Molly dancing and white face paint or indeed any other colour does not have the same effect and would be subject to different complaints. I have to say I too am fed up with the subject - I just wish we could all agree to live and let live both inside and outside the Morris World. There are plenty of things I find offensive but that doesn't mean I think they should necessarily be banned or blackballed!
-
I have to say I am inclined to agree about that too!
-
So the question must be asked....Do I know you???? :D :D :D
Which side do you dance with?
Mr Marma dances with the most hyphenated Morris Side -- Chapel-en-le-Frith
Our local Border side (Powderkegs) have decided to continue blacking up but to add some other colours on top of the black
-
With Wicket Brood now so any mixture of purple, green and black that you care to use, but used to dance North West with Flowers of May.
Trouble is there are some sides who will definitely lose part of their character if they lose the black and we can't all paint as well as Boggarts!
-
Trouble is there are some sides who will definitely lose part of their character if they lose the black and we can't all paint as well as Boggarts!
I always think they must get up in the middle of the night to get that face paint on in time for dancing! ;D
-
[/b][/quote] I always think they must get up in the middle of the night to get that face paint on in time for dancing! ;D
[/quote]
I have used full face paint for a competition routine..... getting it on can be quite swift, but getting it off takes ages.
The Border side I dance with uses black eye masks, but we have been warned we could find ourselves in litigation for even dancing at an event with another side that does use black face paint! :o
-
[/b]
The Border side I dance with uses black eye masks, but we have been warned we could find ourselves in litigation for even dancing at an event with another side that does use black face paint! :o
[/quote]
That's ridiculous, and contrary to all the legal advice I have seen, including that issued to and by Open Morris and Morris Fed. Where did it come from - assuming you are UK based.
-
[/b]
The Border side I dance with uses black eye masks, but we have been warned we could find ourselves in litigation for even dancing at an event with another side that does use black face paint! :o
That's ridiculous, and contrary to all the legal advice I have seen, including that issued to and by Open Morris and Morris Fed. Where did it come from - assuming you are UK based.
[/quote]
I dance in the South West, and the comment I made is inferred from the guidelines issued by the Fed last year: There is no need for the complainant to prove intent, nor to show that they were targeted. It is sufficient that the actions complained of took place and that the complainant can show they felt harassed, intimidated, degraded, humiliated or violated.
Therefore the risk of litigation is present for even dancing at an event where someone can claim to have felt any of the above? Or have I overstated the case? ::)
-
What a shame, and how pathetic!!! And not made any better when you look at the current advertisements for 2017 Shrewsbury Folk Festival, who I believe have banned Border Morris. Turn to the Morris page and out of the 12 photographs, 3 of them are for Border Morris :o :o
-
Shrewsbury haven't banned Border Morris - if they did it would be really ridiculous since most of the sides round there are Border but they have refused to book sides who wear full black face paint - and what is 'full' we ask ourselves?
I know many dancers who will not now be attending on principle. Even worse is the attitude of EDFSS who have banned black face paint but seem to think painting your face red and sticking feathers in your hair is OK, I wonder what certain First Nation groups make of that!
However, two other festivals, Lunar and its 'sister' have said they are banning all Border sides - where's Terry Pratchett and the Dark Morris when you need them!
Meantime most of us will just carry on having fun.
-
Apologies, I misunderstood what I had been reading. - yes, it does say "full face".
Makes me wonder what will be next to be banned :-\ So very sad that we may lose our heritage, because we may upset someone. :'( :'(
-
Even Shropshire Bedlam have moved away from blacking up now and had masks made. I never thought I would see that day.
I was at the Federation AGM weekend last Autumn but stayed well clear of the actual meeting as I thought it would be one long argument over this issue! ::)
-
Even Shropshire Bedlam have moved away from blacking up now and had masks made. I never thought I would see that day.
I was at the Federation AGM weekend last Autumn but stayed well clear of the actual meeting as I thought it would be one long argument over this issue! ::)
Apparently no need for argument or discussion - Britain is required to abandon all apects of heritage and culture in favour of any individual who claims to take offense. :-X
-
Here we go....
-
Here we go....
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
[/quote]
Apparently no need for argument or discussion - Britain is required to abandon all apects of heritage and culture in favour of any individual who claims to take offense. :-X
[/quote]
Many a true word spoken in jest :'( :'( :'(
-
Even Shropshire Bedlam have moved away from blacking up now and had masks made. I never thought I would see that day.
I was at the Federation AGM weekend last Autumn but stayed well clear of the actual meeting as I thought it would be one long argument over this issue! ::)
Pity you didn't go to the meeting I believe there was a very good address on the subject - are you with Enigma?
Apparently no need for argument or discussion - Britain is required to abandon all apects of heritage and culture in favour of any individual who claims to take offense. :-X
Many a true word spoken in jest :'( :'( :'(
[/quote]
Don't despair yet. There's still a big discussion going on and Sahid Javed has come out on the nothing illigal side - some teams will carry on regardless, others will adjust and I don't envy anyone who dances in a mask, hats and tatter jackets are hot enough on a warm day!
Meantime we have ploughs to dig out, the sun to dance up and numerous charity and other events to bless with our presence!
-
I do hope the Britannia Coconut Dancers referred to earlier don't have to unblacken their faces, too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8XsKIwuQOM
They do say that Morris Dancers from other parts of the country watch in awe when the Coconutters perform on Easter Saturday!
-
I was at the Federation AGM weekend last Autumn but stayed well clear of the actual meeting as I thought it would be one long argument over this issue! ::)
Pity you didn't go to the meeting I believe there was a very good address on the subject - are you with Enigma?
[/quote]
I'm not officially with any side any more, though still very much connected with Crook Morris. I was only at the AGM because my partner was the ceilidh caller on the Saturday evening.
-
Do you know, as a non-Morris Person, I honestly haven't understood much of what's been going on in this thread, after the original few entries, since it got on to Morris Dancing ... but it's been fascinating reading!
I posted on here because of Mumming, it brought back memories, but I must admit I'd never known that Morris was such a hotbed of change, dispute and differences! I'll never watch a Morris troupe in action again without recalling all this.
-
Me, too, ThrelfallYorky. As a someone who doesn't know much about Morris dancing, but has seen a few of them performing in different parts of the country, I have to say that I have never seen them with blackened faces. Am I alone in this?
-
Me, too, ThrelfallYorky. As a someone who doesn't know much about Morris dancing, but has seen a few of them performing in different parts of the country, I have to say that I have never seen them with blackened faces. Am I alone in this?
It's only the Border and Molly Sides which use blacking so, if you have seen Cotswold or North West styles of Morris, you wouldn't see black faces. Having said that, there are more sides dancing N.W Morris in the South than there are in the North and the side I was with, based in the North West, dances Cotswold, Border and Rapper Sword ( from the N.E.). There are no rules!! ;D
-
I'd be interested (genuinely) to hear how this debate plays out within the world of morris.
Some thoughts from an outsider:
1. Would the dancing be any less fun or interesting if they didn't black up? I doubt it. How about other forms of face painting - green leaves, abstract patterns etc?
2. Traditions change and evolve with society. Plenty of things that were taken for granted in the past would be unthinkable now. Scolds' bridles or ducking stools for talkative women, "No blacks or Irish" signs on doors, bear-baiting, persecution and prosecution of gay men are a few that come to mind.
3. The Morris tradition pretty much died out at the end of the 18th century and was revived by the Victorians, along with other traditions such as maypole dancing. Many of the associated costumes and traditions only really go back as far as the 19th and early 20th century.
4. The history of blacking up has very uncertain origins. Some think it goes back to rural disguises, some that it references coal miners, but there is a strong thread linking it to the American Negro Minstrel tradition (to use a slightly more polite version of the original phrase.) If this is the case, blacked up morris dancers have far more in common with the black and minstrel show than they would like to believe. Personally, I have no idea which version of history is correct, but I can understand why morris dancers cling to the rural disguise version.
5. It's not the most important thing in the world to those facing ongoing stereotyping and discrimination. There are much bigger problems.
6. I can't see why preserving a dubious tradition of blacking up is so important either. Why not just let it go and let the tradition evolve?
Just my thoughts
Mike
-
I do hope the Britannia Coconut Dancers referred to earlier don't have to unblacken their faces, too.
The Nutters are the one traditional side where there is a possible link to minstrelsy.
-
I'd be interested (genuinely) to hear how this debate plays out within the world of morris.
Mike
Really....you really want to hear what the Morris world thinks of this? ::)
This debate has been going on for such a long time that I lose the will to live when I see yet another round appearing on social media.
All of your points have been aired ad infinitum, they are all very valid and worthy of consideration. But the Morris world, as I suspect is true in any group, has people on both sides who simply will not listen to any other point of view than their own and the result has been, at times, unpleasant and vitriolic.
My suspicion is that the "tradition" of blacking up will die out within the next twenty years or so but that the in-fighting will continue for much of that time. In the meantime, I'm keeping my head down whenever I find myself in the company of anyone of extremist views - on either side!!
-
In the meantime, I'm keeping my head down whenever I find myself in the company of anyone of extremist views - on either side!!
Sounds like a good plan!
-
Speaking of changes in tradition - I guess that women Morris dancers are pretty much accepted as the norm now?
Apologies to Norm.
-
Totally agree with ALL your thought processes Mike in Cumbria. Green, white or camouflage seems like it might be acceptable, though I guess the intent could still be viewed as the same.
There is a female side I often see who do use face paints.... one of them has such bad skin reactions she now uses a veil rather than face paint. If I were part of that side I guess I would push for everyone to do the same.
But part of me still feels that all Morris dancers want is to have fun and be entertaining. Any minority group can hurl accusations and insist that traditions must be changed. Perhaps, as a minority group, Morris dancers should "move the boot to the other foot" and threaten litigation on the grounds of being intimidated, degraded and humiliated due to a hostile spectator?? However I will not hold my breath for that to happen. :'(
-
Speaking of changes in tradition - I guess that women Morris dancers are pretty much accepted as the norm now?
Apologies to Norm.
There are still those who believe it ought to a men only tradition but they are dying out (literally). If it weren't for women, the whole thing would be pretty pathetic by now. Lots of sides struggle to attract younger dancers - there can't be much about a load of old men who struggle to get two feet off the ground when "dancing" to appeal to the younger generation. The same applies to some of the women's groups when the image is staid, sober, middle-aged and frankly, downright dull. If I were a young person now, I'd probably just walk past without a glance.
But there are many, many young people involved, giving a whole new lease of life to traditional dance. Rapper sword is really exciting at the moment; there are young and vibrant Cotswold sides around and the clog-stepping tradition has some wonderful dancers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-vAMDEGvdY
The link is to a show which is a few years old but it gives some idea of what the younger element is up to at the moment!