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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Pilgarlic on Friday 12 December 08 00:03 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I recently found that a sister of one of my ancestors was baptised in two separate neighbouring parishes on the same day in 1727. The two parishes were Reculver and Hoath in Kent.
Would anyone have any opinions on why this would be ?
Pilgarlic
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Hi
I have found this once before.
One baptism was held in a church nearest the fathers family and the second baptism at a church nearest to the mothers family. Even though the places where fairly near to each other, I have to guess that elderly members of the families couldn't travel so possibly this was arranged so no one would miss out.
Linda
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Thanks Linda
Yes that would make sense wouldn't it. The two churches are less than 4 miles apart i notice.
If you are right, i guess the mother would of come from the Hoath Parish seeing as i know the father was from Reculver. I will search the Hoath register for the mothers baptism next time i visit Canterbury.
Pilgarlic
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As far as the Church of England is concerned you should not have a second baptism, unless the Parish Priest was deliberately kept in ignorance of the first one, or the first baptism was not lawful.
The first question asked at the Public Baptism of Infants in the Book of Common Prayer is "Hath this Child been already Baptized, or no?". Only if the answer is 'no' can the baptism continue.
If the Child were baptized by any other lawful Minister, then the Minister of the Parish shall examine those that bring the Child to the Church to determine whether the Child be lawfully baptized or no. If all things were done, as they ought to be, then he shall not baptise the Child again.
The Book of Common Prayer, authorised by the 1662 Act of Uniformity, was the authority on this matter.
Stan
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If it was on the IGI them there was some discussion previously that some records appear appear twice (with a different location for each). This was as a result of mis-filing at some point in the past
As usual, more info would have been helpful.
Pauline
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I'm not familiar with Kent geography/parishes, so can't say if this is the case here, but I on a number of occassions I have seen what looks like two baptisms, with one in the "mother parish" and one in a chapelry of the same parish.
It would seem that only one baptism has taken place but an entry has been made in the regs of both the chapelry and the parish.
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Stan is correct in that they can not be baptised twice.
They should be baptised in the parish of the birth as this parish was responsible for poor relief if required.
A possibility springs to mind that the churches shared a minister and the baptism occurred once but was transcribed twice in the IGI.
Rog
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Hello all
Thanks for your help.
Regarding the IGI transcription ;
Just to clarify that i saw the baptisms myself in the original parish registers for both Reculver and Hoath at the Canterbury Cathedral Archives. The person baptised was Elizabeth Sturges on the 10/5/1727.
By the way ;
My grandad was also baptised twice in 2 separate parishes. The first when he was a couple of months old at Westgate on Sea, Kent and later at 4 years of age at Manston, Kent.
Pilgarlic
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Yes, there are instances of children being baptised twice. Most probably because, as far as the Church of England was concerned, the first baptism was not lawful, or "all things were not done, as they ought to be" Or the Parish Priest was deliberately kept in ignorance of the first one. If parents are so minded they could get their children baptised as often as they like, just as you could go through as many marriage ceremonies you like to the same person. :)
Stan
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This has been found in many families information. Some explanation's for this happening, in different parishes are:
1. That the family members of the Bride and Groom, did not get on very well, so Baptisms were held in each others Parish, so as the different families were able to be there.
2. That some of the older family members, could not travell to the other church, so another baptism was arranged for them to attend.
As for it happening in two churches in the same parish:
1. Another Baptism was speedly arranged, to placate a disgrundled older family member, who had been promised that they would be a godparent, and this promise had been forgotten.
2. Perhaps the Bride and Groom were actually, of different Religions and so the other Baptism was held in the others faith.
Regards haselbury
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2. Perhaps the Bride and Groom were actually, of different Religions and so the other Baptism was held in the others faith.
Regards haselbury
The religion is Christianity.Baptism is a Christian Sacrament. I think you mean different denominations of Christianity. As I said in my previous post you should not have a second baptism, unless the Parish Priest was deliberately kept in ignorance of the first one, or the first baptism was not lawful.
Stan
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I have also just found 2 baptisms on the same day for the same child. This actually happened with a sibling a couple of years later as well.
The dates were 1839 and 1843.
The churches were St Pancras and All Saints Camden Town
I tried to work out why this happened and on further investigation I found that it was the same minister. ::)
Looks like someone actually mixed up the records and in my case, the result looks like two baptisms on the same day in different churches ::)
Interestingly, the same thing appears to have happened to every other child baptised on the same day - ie they were Bp's in both churches
Looks like human error to me (for my lot anyway)
(maybe the Vicar had a wee dram or two ;) )
Di
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I did mean Religion's, they are all of different denominations. My Paternal Grandmother was of the Primitive Methodist Religion. My Paternal Grandfather was a Roman Catholic. Both my Maternal Grandparents were Roman Catholics.
I am a twice Baptized Roman Catholic, and my husband is of the High Church of England. Our five children, are all Baptized Catholics, my husband's choice.
My own cousin was a Roman Catholic Priest, and has said their is no rule in the church about ather Baptisms. I have also been told that by Methodist, CoE, and also Baptist, and a few others as well.
Actually I was Baptized twice myself, once at 6 months, and again at 9 months both Baptism's took place at Roman Catholic Churches, in Victoria, Australia. The second Priest was told of the first Baptism, but said that did not matter, if my Parents wanted another it was fine by him.
The second Baptism took place because, my Father promised his only sister, before I was born that she would be my godmother. But he forgot to tell my mother. Who arranged my Baptism and arranged that her mother and step father be godparents. After finding out about the promise, my second Baptism was arranged and my Aunt was my Godmother.
Regards haselbury
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I did mean Religion's, they are all of different denominations. My Paternal Grandmother was of the Primitive Methodist Religion. My Paternal Grandfather was a Roman Catholic. Both my Maternal Grandparents were Roman Catholics.
Regards haselbury
I think that you are confused. The Primitive Methodists are a denomination of the Christian Religion. They are not a different religion.
Nearly all denominations including the Roman Catholics have a rule that children should only be baptised once. They nearly all have a special service of "conditional" baptism which can be performed if there is any doubt whether the child was previously (properly) baptised. However when this is done it is usually specifically mentioned in the register.
The exceptions usually occur in some of the Baptist and other denominations which do not believe in child baptism and will conduct an adult baptism even child baptism has previously been carried out.
The Roman Catholic Church has on occasions had difficulty in recognising a baptism which have not been carried out in a catholic church. In these terms you need to be aware that the Church of England for example is a catholic church. As a result they frequently baptised children who had been baptised in dissenting churches, primitive churches and the sects on the borders of christianity.
David
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I do not know where you get your information from. But The Methodist Religion is a different denomination to the Catholic Religion, and always has been. The CoE is not a Catholic Church, The Queen and her family are members of this church. They are not Catholics. To marry into their family you have to renounce your Catholic Faith.
Here in Australia, all the Religions are different denominations.
haselbury
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The word catholic with a small "c" means the whole church and is used to refer to any denomination which is organised so that all the churches regard themselves as being part of a single church, usually with a creed and structure of bishops. This is distinct from some of the non-conformist churches such as the Congregationalists or Baptists where each church is an entity on its own with its own ruling group within the individual church. If you look at the edicts of the CofE you will find that it specifically refers to itself as a catholic church. For example see:
http://www.cofe.anglican.org/about/history/
This should not be confused with the Roman Catholic Church which is a particular catholic church with the pope as its head.
A denomination is a named group within the Christian Church as a whole who are distinguished by their slightly different rules as to how a church is governed and their interpretation of the scriptures.
In the UK the all the churches are very keen to emphasise that they all belong to the same single religion: Christianity. We would never refer to the Roman Catholics and Methodists as being different religions and I am very surprised that you do in Australia as I have not come across this elsewhere in the world.
David
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Like Buddhism ...... 8)
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See http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/ which lists the nineteen world's major religions, although the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are Christian based.
Atheism
Baha'i
Buddhism
Candomblé
Christianity
Hinduism
Islam
Jainism
Jehovah's Witnesses
Judaism
Mormon
Paganism
Rastafari
Santeria
Shinto
Sikhism
Taoism
Unitarianism
Zoroastrianism
Stan
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JEDI is conspicuous by its absence.
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How can Atheism, which denies the existence of a God, be classified as a religion?
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That's the BBC for you :) and what is JEDI ??? a fictional belief system that some people thought wrongly, would receive official government recognition as a religion if enough people quoted it on their Census forms. It is not a major world religion.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=297
Stan
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Stan, Stan - lighten up ;D ;D
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The Nicene Creed
And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
http://www.cofe.anglican.org/search?SearchableText=nicene+creed&go=Go
The list of Denominations Certified to the Registrar-General in 1867 numbers 88 :)
Stan
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What Stan forgot to say was that the Nicene Creed is used by very many denominations although only a few include it in their normal liturgy.
David
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To return to the original point, I too have come across "double" baptisms in my family in the eigtheenth century. Perhaps what we are seeing is a double RECORDING of a single baptism - an accomodating minister might record the baptism in, say the mother's parish, even though the actual baptism took place in the parish of birth - I can see though the problems this would cause for settlement rights
Steve