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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Stovepipe on Friday 12 December 08 21:14 GMT (UK)
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Hi RootsChatters,
ESRO has a document in which a shop and household at Punnetts town is valued. The date is 1852 and the occupiers are given surnames only - SANDS & HOLLAND.
Another document has Benjamin SANDS and Henry HOLLANDS as occupiers of the former parish workhouse in Heathfield, 1836.
I'd like to find out more about this pair - are they the same people?. Could SKS please lookup the 1851 census for them at Punnetts Town? Sorry, I don't have any ages for them - and it's just a guess that they were together at the shop in 1851.
If the occupiers of the shop aren't Benjamin and Henry, please let me know. But if they are, may I then also ask for an 1841 lookup for them?
Thanks in advance,
Stovepipe
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Hi stovepipe
Despite several looks I can't pin down Benjamin Sands or Henry Hollands in Punnetts Town in the census returns. I've checked 1841 to 1861.
I decided to have a look at my book 'The Story of Punnetts Town' and see what clues that would give me.
It mentions '1851, the shop was taken over by Sarah Hollands'. It is talking about the site which was later taken over by the butcher's shop on the main road. I know it well, used to go there to buy granddad's sausages.
'Five years later, she married a farmer called Henry Buckland and, as we have seen, they had moved to the shop next to the Barley Mow by 1871'.
Don't know whether that gives any clues and I will see if I can find Sarah in the census returns.
Kerry
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Right found her on the 1851 census
H0107 1638 418 25
Punnetts Town
Sarah Hollands, head, unmarried, 46, Grocer born Herstmonceux
Mary Hollands, mother, widow, 80 born Warbleton
I wonder then if Henry was her father?
Kerry
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And just to confirm what the book says
Sarah Holland married Henry Buckland
Sept quarter 1856
Hailsham district
2b 89
Kerry
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This is turning out to be quite intriguing
The age doesn't add up being 51 when she married. The census has a black line through her age so the first digit can't actually be read so it is something then 6.
Right looked for the 1841 census and came up with
H0107 1114 11/48 3
Hellingly Union Workhouse which I think may well have been the closest workhouse to Punnetts Town but I'm not sure on that.
Sarah Hollands 25, unreadable occupation
Ellen Hollands, 7
Henry Hollands, 12
all born in county
Kerry
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Kerry, thanks for your input to this thread - it's appreciated.
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Hi Stovepipe
I was just searching on A2A for a Hollands of my own in Edenbridge and came across the following. apologies if you already have it.
FILE - Valuation book - ref. BUR/2/1/33 - date: Aug 1854 - Sep 1854
hit[from Scope and Content] p.106 Heathfield, Punnetts Town: grocer's shop (Simmons/Hollands), 1854
So by that year had Sarah changed her partner?
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
Many thanks. It's so kind of you to have remembered my query while doing your own research. :)
I hadn't seen the reference before, and it's helpful in a negative way.
I should have made clear that in the Sands/Hollands partnership at the former workhouse, Heathfield, in 1836, and later at the Punnetts Town shop in 1852, the chap I'm really interested in is SANDS, and the place Heathfield. Yet I don't know that the SANDS person is the same in both references.
I framed the question around the 1851 Punnetts Town census because the 1852 date for the shop is so close.
All my interest stems from the fact that a SANDS ancestor of mine had a shop at the Old Workhouse, Heathfield - but much later (i.e in the 1881 census). There's only a remote chance, but I thought I'd investigate a possible connection between my ancestor and the SANDS half of the partnership. So I'm looking at Benjamin SANDS around the mid 1830s - but I have no age for him. I was hoping he could be found at Punnetts Town in 1851 with an age (and be old enough to be identified with the 1836 Benjamin - or if too young or not called Benjamin then shown to be his son or nephew etc).
Regards,
Stovepipe
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Hi Stovepipe
A curious thing happened today! Whilst researching my Oliver family I discovered that one of the daughters of my Joseph Oliver, Mary born 1771 married a George Hollands. Guess where she turned up in the 1851 census.
Yep as above, mother of Sarah in Punnetts Town at the shop.
Small world or what ::) ;D
Kerry
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Small world indeed, Kerry.
I have to confess I've put aside this line of research in favour of another that opened up with your brilliant help in finding Richard Sands his baptism in Battle, 1747. Still, one day I may connect to Benjamin, and maybe to a Hollands or two as well.
Regards,
Stovepipe
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I'm only surprised I haven't found any Sands so far! ;D
This Sarah is actually proving more difficult to pin down than I first thought, despite all the census returns saying she was born in Herstmonceux I cannot find her baptism to fit her in with this family, if indeed she is the right one. So I have ordered her marriage certificate ::)
Kerry
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Hi there Kerry,
I hope it isn't as wet in Sussex as it is in the Welsh wilds!
I have logged I think every bloomin' Sands in the Hailsham/Ticehurst areas in my backwards and forwards search for my great, great great grandfather Richards baptism which you so kindly found. I therefore have quite some tree 'map' into which I slot my family.
Now this Benjamin with the Hollands connection, the name figures a few times but the only ones that remotely fits the dates is these ones.
(1) Benjamin Sands son of Benjamin Sands and Ann Thomas born 1775 (I dont have a baptism, this is from he IGI). He marr. a Frances Bones 16/3/1830 at Heathfield. They had just one child it seems James born 1849 at Framfield but i think I can recall that the family remained in the Framfield area as at census 1871.
(2) Benjamin Sands of Wartling son of Benjamin and Sarah Unknown, born 1787 had several children Amy, Richard, Sarah, John, Benjamin, Mary and Jane 1796-1792. Benjamin year 1787 also married a Sarah Unkown and had four children Benjamin, Edwin, Sarah Jane and Henry. I have scant details on this family and if you have access to the baptismal index and SMI i would be grateful for them.
The other possibilities for finding a Benjamin Sands is from a distant branch of our family is from Mayfield through the descendents of John Sands baseborn son of Anne Sands who later married Thomas Roberts, There was substantial issue from this one person but I would have to delve into my so far unlogged papers. If you can get into Ancestry's oneworld tree I know SherriO has these posted into her tree.
THere are certainly links to Punnet's Town in my family in the later 19th century and into the 20th century. Springfield's Cottage was in occupation by a great Aunt and then my Great Uncle Charles whose last address is given as that cottage in the burial register for All Saints Heathfield. The cottage was rented from a Mr C. Sands who is distantly related to my family. His son still lives in the Heathfield area and we share grandparentage in the early17th century.
Do you have access to any marriages of Sands and births from the Dallington and Heathfield registers of the years 1680-1750 I am trying to sort out the families of a William Sandes and Mary and William Sands and Mary which span the two villages. Im not sure if they are one and the same family or two different families. I would be so very grateful if you could have a look if you have got anything at your disposal.
I have a marriage here for a Eunice Oliver/Nisa ? Oliver marrying Sands do you have her in your tree. Cant look up as people waiting to use my printer!!!! Will post more if you are interested.
Regards,
M.Ann
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Hi M.Ann
I took a look at the marriages on the SMI and there seems only one that fits.
William sands of Heathfield married Mary Monk of Dallington at Dallington on 26 September 1749
No doubt Eunice does fit in somewhere, I haven't found her yet though. But they all seem to be local to the Warbleton area.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry
Abraham Sands married Eunice Oliver at Heathfield 29/1/1799. She is often referred to as Nisa in the Heathfield registers. Abraham Sands was the son of Benjamin Sands (b. Dallington) and Ann Thomas (b. Rotherfield).
Abrm. and Nisa's children were Sarah 1801, Thomas 1803, Willm. 1809, Eliza 1814, Jeremiah 4/5/1815 bap. and Hannah 11/1/1818 all of Heathfield.
I cant see a baptism for Eunice Oliver with my limited resources but does she relate to your Olivers, perhaps born around 1779?
The William Sands you mention who married Mary Monk I give to John Sands and Mary Vallance of Warbleton, he was baptised about 1731 in Dallington wasnt he?
Again I dont have a date..this couples subsequent children were all bap. in Warbleton.
There is also a contribution on the IGI for a birth at Dallington William or Joseph Sands 1730 son of Joseph Sands and Mrs Mary Sands. Now, a Joseph Sands of Dallington is a direct paternal ancestor of mine. The son of William and Mary Sands. Joseph married Eliz. Hunt 16/4/1744 from Mountfield at Battle.
Joseph is my great, great,great,great grandfather. Since Joseph had a son baptised in Burwash called William in 1755, mother given as Mary I am puzzled by this one unless Joseph was married previous to Elizabeth to a Mary. Also Elizabeth wife of Joseph Sands died in Burwash in 1757 so was alive when William was born.
I'm really confused by all these William and Mary Sands and Joseph's marriages!! :-\ I must get down to ESCRO to see these registers for myself
Hope the Oliver info is useful to you.
Regards M.Ann
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Hi M.ann
There are two families if Olivers, one in Heathfield and one in Warbleton, mine are all in Warbleton until Thomas Oliver who married Martha Reed 1725. His baptism is not to be found in Warbleton and on a more careful check of baptisms at the weekend there is a Thomas baptised in Heathfield 1698 and if I can't find a marriage or death for him in Heathfield he could be my man.
I am currently trying to eliminate him without success that leads me to believe he is my man and he is the connection with the Heathfield Olivers.
They were quite a mobile family, they seem to have first appeared in Sedlescombe in the early 1500s so Heathfield to Warbleton is just a mere hop!
Kerry
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I have just discovered Rootchat and read with great interest the thread of messages re Sands/Hollands. In particular the references to Oliver's! I have only recently started to search the family tree and our Oliver's hail from Ticehurst area, WARBLETON. And there is a link to an Emily Sands c 1856. We visited Warbleton a couple of years ago and by chance were directed to a very helpful local historian whom I contacted and she did some basic research listing the Oliver's linked to my great great grandfather: George Oliver, Warbleton Census 1841 showed him married to Louisa and living at Sandhole Fm. Through the years the Oliver's showed addresses at Rabbetts Cotts, Warbleton, Red Pale Road, Warbleton, Culls Cottages, Warbleton.
There is also an Oliver's clock at Turners Green on the side of an Oast House which we are trying to find out more about. I wonder if we have any links to your research? Would love to hear from you.
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Hi Charlston
I have Olivers from Warbleton in my tree, although I haven't come across George as yet. I shall have to check again. My Olivers lived at Bunces, Rushlake Green from what I can see and there do seem to be a lot of them around. Who were George's parents?
Interesting what you say about the clock at Turner's Green, I know it well but I didn't know it was an Oliver's clock.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry, thank you for answering so promptly. I don't have any full details but I do have a list of Warbleton marriages 'OLIVER' family and it appears as though George's parents were a James Oliver and Louise Lade (daughter of Fill (Phil) Lade. George was actually married twice and had a total of 18 children!
Do you have a name/contact for the Dallington registers by any chance? We are travelling down to E Sussex early September and I hope to do a bit of research down there, hopefully going to Warbleton/Turners Green again and perhaps finding out where the addresses are in the area (as mentioned in the Census').
I also hope to telephone the historian again this week to ask if she had found out any more about the Oliver's clock.
Thank you once again for responding, 'Charlston' :)
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Hi Charlston
I'm not sure if the Dallingtons registers are held locally, I always view them either on the Sussex Family History Group online database or by visiting the East Sussex Record Office at nearby Lewes.
I don't know whether anyone else knows any different?
If you get chance whilst in the Warbleton area, you could always pop into the Three Cups pub at Three Cups near Punnetts Town which was run by Hannah Oliver http://www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk/html/hannah_oliver.html and family!
Kerry
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It would be interesting to find the link between the Ticehurst Olivers and the Warbleton Olivers. I have recently traced the Warbleton line back through Heathfield, Brede and back into the 1500s in Sedlescombe and it would be interesting to see whether the Ticehurst Olivers follow a line back there too.
Kerry
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Hi again Kerry,
I've just registered with the SFHG - looks like it may take up to a week for it to be actioned, so a bit of a delay there. Thanks for the reference to the Three Cups - will def find and visit. I've had a look at your site and there is a possibility that 'our' James Oliver could be a sibling to Hannah Oliver, it could make him approx 64-65yrs old when his son George married Louisa Lade. Charlston :)
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I've got that James marrying Sarah Christian at Bexhill in 1806 and on the 1841 at Bexhill with son, Jesse and daughter Sarah.
There is a marriage in 1797 at Ticehurst for a James Oliver and Ruth Roberts, and I presume he was born in Ticehurst??
Kerry
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On the SFHG baptism database there is a baptism at Ticehurst for George Oliver on 8 January 1817 to James and Ruth Oliver.
Could this be your George?
Kerry
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Hi again Kerry
It could be - trouble is all I have had to go on is a list of Warbleton marriages, Bodle Street marriages, baptisms and burials - which have been very useful as a start - but it sounds like I need to really 'investigate' the SFHG now. I have asked for a copy of George and Louisa's marriage cert.
They certainly seemed to have moved round quite a lot - certainly re births/baptisms and marriages. Luckily my grandfather (Fred Oliver) lived his adult life in Rye (Sussex), his father (Arthur 'Alf' lived in Edenbridge c the 1911 census).
The historian also included a list from the Tithe map entries and entries from Topographical Survey ref Olivers. The earliest entry on the topographical survey is 'John 1574 of Dallington at death - will states of Warbleton and Dallington. House called Skings, land to son William (p45/91).
You may have these already?
Thank you so much for your responses, very appreciated. :-) Charlston
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Hi Charleston,
There is a bap. Emily Sands 11 May 1856 Bodle Street on IGI, mother Frances Sands. Could be a base born child since only mother is given, you'd need to see the entry. What place of worsiph was at Bodle Street?
Frances Sands might be dau. of John Sands and Lydia Pilbeam their marr 18/7/1834 Dallington. Frances bap. 22/2/1835.
John Sands maybe the son of John and Lucy Haisleden/Hazleden of Dallington bap 2/9/1804. Try 1841 and 1851 census also to see if you can find the details.
If you scroll through the messages I have a Nisa/Eunice Oliver marrying into my Sands tree but I cant find any details on her. KerryB thinks there is a Walberton connection. As for Sands/Hollands this comes from an assoc . disc. by Stovepipe re Church Street/Chapel Row/Priors copttages which i now have further info on. I'll post this up on due course. Hope this is of some use. M.Ann
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Ahhh! ::)
The Emily Sands married your George Oliver in 1856 so the Emily I describe as dau of Frances Sands cannot be the one in your tree since your Sands connection was for Georges wife. . So your answer may lie in obtaining the marriage cert. to find out more about this union, if you dont find a register entry. There is an IGI entry for an Emily Sands bap heathfield 8/6/1834 which might fit. If this Emily is Oliver appears on the 1861 census, her birthplace may show as Heathfield. ( the 1851 wont be any good since the couple were not married at that time of course!). Otherwise, I dunno!! M.Ann
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Hi again Kerry
It could be - trouble is all I have had to go on is a list of Warbleton marriages, Bodle Street marriages, baptisms and burials - which have been very useful as a start - but it sounds like I need to really 'investigate' the SFHG now. I have asked for a copy of George and Louisa's marriage cert.
They certainly seemed to have moved round quite a lot - certainly re births/baptisms and marriages. Luckily my grandfather (Fred Oliver) lived his adult life in Rye (Sussex), his father (Arthur 'Alf' lived in Edenbridge c the 1911 census).
The historian also included a list from the Tithe map entries and entries from Topographical Survey ref Olivers. The earliest entry on the topographical survey is 'John 1574 of Dallington at death - will states of Warbleton and Dallington. House called Skings, land to son William (p45/91).
You may have these already?
Thank you so much for your responses, very appreciated. :-) Charlston
Hi Charlston
As M.Ann says that marriage certificate is a good starting point. As well as George's father's name it will give his occupation which then might help to track him down through the census records.
The SFHG database when you get it, is brilliant, burials are now being added as well as baptisms and it opens up a whole load more opportunities.
No I've not seen the Topographical survey ref the Olivers at all. There do seem to be a lot of Olivers around in Sussex and its hard knowing which lot is the right lot. Sounds interesting that they were in Dallington and Warbleton that early, if they are not ancestors of my lot as I currently think, I wonder if there were links anyway and that would explain their constant movings around this part of East Sussex?? Hmmm
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
I've managed to do a little more 'investigating' - have traced back to Joseph Oliver b 1753 Ticehurst, Sussex - spouse Mary Rutley. With Joseph's parents being a John Oliver and Elizabeth Vidler - but no details on them via ancestry.co.uk. Any tips for visiting the East Sussex Records Office - where would you start or gain the most information do you think, I don't want to keep my family waiting for hours!
I managed to get George and Louisa's marriage certificate copy - threw me a bit when it said for age 'of full age' - but have found out George's age. Anyway, thanks again for all your comments. Very appreciated :)
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Hi Charleston,
Taken the liberty of replying although your message is addressed to Kerry --and she IS on the ground there in Sussex and I am not, but I am stumped on my own research at the mo. and we all help each other in this forum and we do get results most of the time!!
You have the parents John Oliver and Elizabeth Vidler, are you sure on these?
There IS a marriage recorded for a John Oliver and Elizabeth Vidler recorded on the IGI (International Genealogical Index. This is online at Familysearch.com
This index was set up by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - The Mormon Church, because they baptise their ancestors postumously to ensure their eternal salvation). Please forgive me if you know all this, but the IGI is a good starting point. Its online, carried at record offices and many libraries and their own reading rooms at their churches and it costs you nothing to search. BUT it its NOT fully comprehensive and entries when they are submitted by members or copied from elsewhere can be wrong. There are also the Hugh Wallis Batches for virtually every county of England and Wales, these are grouped IGI records but they are patchy as regards to parishes. Many parishes and one or two counties declined to hand over their records for transcription to the Mormans because of their ethics being on the fringe of mainstream Christianity. So you need to double check ideally from the Parish register ..the primary historical source and other reliable indexes and transcriptions as well. This includes those painstakingly transcribed by the OPC - Online Parish Clerks. On the Sussex Online Parish Clerks website coverage is patchy. Some parishes are very well covered like Burwash, some not represented at all and for others submissions are made only for people of certain families that the contributor has an interest in. Sorry, Ticehurst aint in it! Another good source is the National Archives which you can search online and buy and download any copies you want, it even tells you where the records are stored. Good for wills, legal disputes, military rolls of honour and so much more.
You have membership to SFHG that gives you access to the baptismal register, the sussex marriage index and other good reliable sources. They are working on a burial index for Sussex but for now try Finmypast parish records where there is a burial index for East Sussex in the cords that the site absorbed from Familyhistoryonline, you can buy credits to view
You have ancestry.com. If your time is limited do your homework first before going to ESCRO in Lewes, its not the place to go and leave your family waiting outside while you just pop in..unless you want to just order some copies of records. You can spend hours in there trawling the records. You have to book these days in advance and tell them what you what to do there, the original registers are on microfiche. You can only take a pencil and sheets of paper in everything else you bring is placed in a locker. So you need to do a bit of prep.
In 1837 BMD registration came in but it was not strictly enforced for some years but makes the task of finding people a whole lot easier. Free BMD is online.
1841 was the first national census up to 1901 online - at Ancestry.co.uk and 1911 at Findmypast.com pay per view (these sites are licensed by the National Archives). Scan and print your most important returns and save in a designated image folder..you may eventually decide the subscription gets a bit much. You'll not get at your images if you save them on the site and then cancel your subscription. These sites are most useful for getting access to the census, other peoples trees and the BMD indexes, searching post Free BMD about 1920 is a murderous task if you have scant information and a common name. Did you watch 'Heir Hunters on the BBC!!
So before you go to ESCRO see what you can do from your own computer and dont forget Rootschat!!!!!! Kerry found my 4X's great grandfather when I couldnt. A trip to ESCRO without knowing his baptism was in the Battle register and not where I expected him to be would have been a probable 300mile round trip waste of time.
Now then John Oliver and Eliz. Vidler. The IGI gives a date as 29/9/1746 at Ticehurst, submitted by a member of the Mormon Church Karla Shelton.
She has a website but there is no mention of this union on her site. Neither does it appear in the Ticehurst, Hugh Wallis Batches. So check the Sussex Marriage index.
John Oliver possible parents Thomas and Martha bap at Warbleton. Their children
John 9/5/1725 m. Eliz Vidler...son Joseph 1753
James 10/9/1727
Martha 12/11/17?
Joseph 23/10/1737
Susannah 30/8/1741 1743
Did they move to Ticehurst?
By looking at the names it does look promising
Eliz. Vidler possibly from Eastbourne no early Vidlers in Ticehurst did they move there? Bap. Eastbourne 23/10/1727 parents Wm. and Sarah
Well see what you can do happy hunting, I hope that some of the above is useful even if you know about most of the things I've told you!! :) M.Ann
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Hi Kerry,
Sorry poached a reply to Charleston on an message addressed to you. Quiet morning, dreadful rain here. Can you help me out here, with your local knowledge??
I'm trying to pipoint my greatgrandfathers cottage in Church Street, Heathfield.
I stumbled upon an interesting docu. in the national archives re the ownership history of Priors cottages. Thread http://www.national archives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=179-amsh..
Additional manuscripts Catalogue H
Deeds of Priors, 4-8 Church Street, Heathfield amsh/AMS5624 1733-1902
My great grandfather being Julius Caeser Sands yes.. really.. ::) They kept a general store and bakery
I cant fit the occupants of the road into the census 1861 onward or establish in which cott my ancester lived or if indeed if it wasa separate building further up the road where the old workhouse is. If you google Little Priors Cottage, Heathfield one of those cotts in the row of 3 is up for sale. See the photo, but you prob know it. Could it be next door..the shop. Doesnt quite add up with the Nat Archives Docu or the census
Nat Archives sale 1889 by auction at Crown Hotel, Hailsham Lot 10
a tailors shop and wkshp. w. dwelling attach. occup. Mr Steph. Taylor, a dwelig house called 'Priors' (front used as shop) let to Julius caeser Sands, two cotts. one occup mrs Covell, one vacant and a row of three brick built cotts Ramond pettit, Joseph Barrow and Geo. Haffenden. = 17 cotts Tower St.,a double fronted grocer's shop w. warehouse behind = pub the Gibraltar Arms. All in Geo. Pipers estate
Also, about Kitwish ..is the present building the same one mentioned in the census 1881, it looks too new. Was there another house called Kitwish before the detached house standing on the corner in Church Street now.
I cant get my hand on a detailed enough map on line with enough annotation on it and I dont have Ancestry membership at the mo. but i may start it up in the winter.
Do you have any ideas. Of course at the back of these buildings is heathfield House and Arthur Carthew Langdale the Fuller heir bought Priors in 1902 and these details were with the papers pertaining to the estate. There is a map with them but that is not shown on the site. All is at ESCRO now.
Any ideas much appreciated.
M.Ann
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Hi Charlston and M.Ann
I've checked the Sussex Marriage Index which incidentally is not available via the SFHG database, as they have published it some years ago on CD and I think the plan is for now to leave it that way.
Anyway
John Oliver married Elizabeth Vidlar at Ticehurst on 29 September 1746, both of this parish and by banns.
This looks the probable marriage of John Oliver baptised 9 May 1725 at Warbleton (from parish register) to Thomas and Martha Oliver.
This is our link as one of their other sons, Joseph born 1737 was the father of my Hannah Oliver and her line including the links to the Hollands family. I was feeling guilty about this thread being hijacked by the Oliver family but as they seem to have a few links with the Hollands family I don't feel so bad! Sorry Stovepipe ;)
I have lots of information about this family and a tentative tree going back to the 1500s which is currently being looked into in more detail. If you send me a PM with your email address Charlston I'll send you some more information.
I agree with M.Ann's point about going to ESRO, I think the family might get bored waiting outside while you get heaily involved, no chance of getting them involved in the hunt inside is there?
I believe you said you had joined the Sussex Family History Group? Their baptism database is brilliant, not only for combing the available registers but also for the search on a name facility which allows you to find those strays that were not born in the parish you expect!
Kerry
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Hi M.Ann
A day of what I suppose you call sharp showers here, you get caught in an absolute deluge, turn round to run and the sun is shining! ::)
Not sure about Kitwish and Priors Cottage but if you don't mind waiting till Friday when I'm not working and have a bit more time, I'll get some of my local books out and see if I can find anything. I know that part of Heathfield is featured in a book of old photographs.
I agree about Kitwish looking newer, I've had a good look when I've passed it lately and it does look newer, I wonder though, if it was a shop that the front has been altered at some time.
Kerry
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Thanks Kerry,
I would be so grateful if you find anything of interest. Perhaps ESRO has some old centre village maps or plans. Their is mention of a plan with the Heathfield House Estate papers but it is not available online from the National Archives with the transcript of the document.
I am going to send you my simplified file which will show how the property changed hands down the years. There is no mention of Benjamin Sands and Henry Hollands in the document and I cant tie up the names found to those in the censuses. Really, the earliest that affects my great grandfather and the Stovepipes great great grandfather is 1861. The Ben. Sands could be a son of Ben and Ann (nee Thomas but I will have to look further into this.
The Haffendens feature prominently in the docu. namely Richard Haffenden and James Haffenden who were also voters, I disc'd. from the Poll Books. they are a massive family, Marquick and Sarah Haffenden of 'Hooks' near Vines Cross (nee Holmes)were my 5x's great grandparents and Holmes and Haffenden family members as well as the Upfield's were all some time occupants in these houses in Church Street.
be nice to see your photos or have the details of the book Kerry to compare the present day views. But they cant be older than 1860 which doesnt help us for any earlier image of that part of the village so I'll have to see if I can get a plan.
Looks like yours and Charleston Oliver's are fairly sorted from what I have found from here. Wonder who the Nisa/Eunice Oliver is then, nothing in your baptismal index?
yes I was aware that the SMI was on CD but you can purchase it if youve a mind to from SFHG cant you. Nice if they could bring down the cost, I have too few look ups now to justify the expense. I thought it was about £22.
Thanks Kerry look fwd. to hearing from you if you have any more info on Priors. :)
M.Ann
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Hi M.Ann - WOW what can I say, the same as I sent to Kerryb in PM - a HUGE THANKYOU!! For the information and taking the time to put it all down - and I do appreciate you answering. I have learnt so much from your message, I am certain the John Oliver and Elizabeth Vidler are correct. I knew nothing about the Morman's info or the other websites you have mentioned - so now have other aspects to 'investigate' - thank you!
Thanks also for the advice re ESCRO - will give it a miss on this visit, think I had better get my head round all this information to start with.
If I can help you out in anyway let me know, I have several family members still in Sussex - Rye, Hastings, Icklesham areas and of course am going down to Rye/Warbleton area soon.
Hope you both have a great weekend - Summer IS coming back!! Charlston. :)
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M.Ann
Now to Priors Cottage.
One of the books I have is Around Heathfield in old photographs by Sutton Publishing. Possibly not in print now but you might pick up a copy of www.abebooks.co.uk
I've put together a Sussex book list on my website http://www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk/html/book_list.html which you might find useful and I seem to be adding to it all the time.
One book not on there which I recently purchased is
On the Edge, the story of Punnetts Town by Molly Beswick 2006, very interesting
Anyway back to Heathfield, you are correct the photos are not early enough but its always worth a look because sometimes the information with the photos can give little clues
There is a 1910 view of All Saints Church with the church tower and it says
.......'The church tower only had its clock added in 1920, the three Priors Cottages on the left were demolished in c 1915, whilst the Star Inn had the stables demolished in the mid 1960s....'
So Priors Cottages no longer exist and from the photo and my knowledge I think they seem to be on the left hand side of Church Street opposite what is now the car park of the pub. I believe there is a track there now going down to Heathfield House and Highlands Farm.
HTH
Kerry
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Did you mention a Butchers Shop?
The next photograph is a view of the Star Inn and says that the corner of the building, now Star Inn Cottage used to be a butcher's shop.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
Sorry not to have got back earlier to you but I have been rather busy lately.
I have E Mailed you my history docu on the history of Priors to you. This is my transcript, but the original wordings are on the National Archives site filed under Deeds of Heathfield House Estate amsh/AMS5624
I'll need to check all the enumerators walks in the censuses to see who was living where. I'll restart my Ancestry.com membership again shortly since I do most of my research in the winter months.
My Great Grandmother Mary Sands (nee Upfield) kept a Bakers shop/general store in Church Street in one of the Priors buildings but my Great grandfather was described as a hawker. In fact he was a herbalist and made up many 'hedgerow' pills and potions that he sold around the countryside and as far as London we believe. Sadly, I have found out less about him than I have my great,great great grandfather. There does not seem to be any will and his death is registered at Hailsham in 1913 a year of course before the Great War.
Tantalisingly its the 1921 census that will reveal whether his widow is still living in the same cottage.
All for now. M.Ann
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Hi M Ann and anyone else who might be interested in properties in Old Heathfield.
Today after a haircut in Heathfield I nipped along to the bookshop, supposedly for a Christmas present but came out with a present for myself ;D
A book called Old Heathfield and Cade Street in the 19th Century by 4 authors and published in association with the Old Heathfield and Cade Street Society, published last year and reprinted Feb this year. As it is printed locally I don't suppose you will get it anywhere but locally but there is a contact email which if anyone is interested send me a PM and I'll let you have it.
It has chapters on all properties in the village including Kitwish and Prior Cottages and is very interesting.
Kerry
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I'm not so sure about the marriage of John Olliver and Elizabeth Vidlar being that of John Olliver from Warbleton - I have it tentatively as being a John Olliver bapt Ticehurst in 1724.
I haven't had a chance to check the burial registers yet, so can't be sure this John made it to adulthood, but if he did, then this has to be a strong possibility.
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Hi Bagpuddycat
Well that's a very strong contender if he was actually born in Ticehurst, more likely than one from Warbleton. Do you have details of his baptism, who were his parents? I wonder where he fits in to the Ollivers.
I recently had been trying to find a farm called Ollives farm near Heathfield which is said to have been home to the Heathfield Ollivers some 500 odd years ago but was looking in the wrong place. I eventually found it and discovered I have been driving past it on my way to work every day for the past 10 years. It is just outside of Broad Oak on the main road to Hurst Green so between Heathfield and Ticehurst.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry
I made a slight error in my last post in my excitement at finding my own ancestors discussed! It's actually a John Ollive, no "r", which makes it a little more questionable. According to the SFHG baptism database, he was baptised 2 Dec 1724, and his parents were John and Sarah Ollive.
One thing that makes me less sure that this is him is that there would be no link at all between John's siblings' names and those of his children - which would be unusual in my experience.
Anna
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Hi all
Does this help?
Benjamin Carley-Oliver
Married Mary Hollander in Warbleton Sussex in 1827.
He was a shoemaker. Born Warbleton 1801 to Hannah Oliver. Maybe Hannah later married Mr Carley, who may have been his natural father or stepfather. However throughout his life in Herstmonceux he was Benjamin Carley. His photos are on ancestry.
Mary Holland was I think the daughter of George Holland(e) of Herstmonceux.