RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: skyblueFF on Monday 15 December 08 12:21 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone out there have a HEISE in their family tree or know anyone who has. There are one or two families around but they don't seem to have any connection with mine who have all disappeared without trace.
GGf Rudolph Gustav Paul Heise last record is on the birth certificate of his son Julius Paul was born and died 1904 Birkenhead.
Gustav had a brother Ernest Rudolph who also lived in Birkenhead at the same time, his wife was Ella nee HENBREY they married in London They had twins Max and Millicent born 1903.in Birkenhead They must have moved to London some time after this because they had a daughter Joan Ethel in 1921, what an age gap!!
I know quite a bit about them because I have copies of marriage and birth certificates. But can find no records of deaths for any of them.
I
Gustav and Ernest were both hairdressers. Their father was a Band Master his name was Julius and his wife Bertha possibly living in Barrington road Liverpool in 1908.
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Hello and welcome to Rootschat.
Are you hoping to track down living relatives or trace your lineage back to Germany?
Justin
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Hello Justin
In short term I thought that if I could find some living relatives they may have some idea as to what happened to him. He was my mothers GF but was always a mystery in the family. His wife was Sarah Jane Hartwell and died in 1954 in Chester and on her death certificate her name is Paul but it says widow of Gustav Heise. When I saw this it was the first time I heard the name Heise. There is quite a gap in my family tree because of his mystery.
Michael
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Hello Michael,
Have you tried searching for HEISE in the National Archives catalogue?
There is a file from 1933 regarding the re-admission to British nationality of Sarah Jane Heise of Birkenhead!!! Would make very interesting reading. It could mean that the yencountered problems during WWI if Gustav was not naturalized at the time.
Gustav's birth and baptism in Danzig (Gdansk) is also contained in the IGI on www.familysearch.org (http://www.familysearch.org)
It can be surprisingly difficult to research these 'recent' ancestors. My late father did not even know exactly when his grandfather had died.
You have a fascinating journey ahead of you.
Justin
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From free BMD - posted for reference:
Marriages Mar 1898
Heise Rudolph Gustav P
Marylebone 1a 917
Same Page:
Hartwell Sarah Jane
David
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For Reference:
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-20776.html
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Hello Justin
In short term I thought that if I could find some living relatives they may have some idea as to what happened to him. He was my mothers GF but was always a mystery in the family. His wife was Sarah Jane Hartwell and died in 1954 in Chester and on her death certificate her name is Paul but it says widow of Gustav Heise. When I saw this it was the first time I heard the name Heise. There is quite a gap in my family tree because of his mystery.
Michael
I expect you have this, but you never know?
http://www.familyhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1996
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Can someone try the Times Digital Archive - I can't do it from work.
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You may also have seen this:
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?p=218288
with this :
http://pilot.familysearch.org/record...oYear=1940;p=1 shows a Charlotte Heise of Berlin, and an Emma Heise of Berlin both emigrating to New York (Ellis Island records), one 1913, the other Sept 1921. Could it be the same family? Did your relative hear from them about life out there, go off and join them? Perhaps it might have been his intention to send for his English family when he'd got established, but things didn't go well
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You may also have seen this:
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?p=218288
with this :
http://pilot.familysearch.org/record...oYear=1940;p=1 shows a Charlotte Heise of Berlin, and an Emma Heise of Berlin both emigrating to New York (Ellis Island records), one 1913, the other Sept 1921. Could it be the same family? Did your relative hear from them about life out there, go off and join them? Perhaps it might have been his intention to send for his English family when he'd got established, but things didn't go well
No record of Emma and Charlotte's birth on Free BMD
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http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp
Chritening in Danzig in 1874 of a Gustav Paul Heise, is a possible I am by no means an expert on immigration would there be records?
Source:
C998461 1816 - 1836 0742675 Film 1180628 Film
C998461 1837 - 1875 0362949 Film NONE
Will have to sign off now, my thoughts:
On his marriage certificate who was his father, where was he born?
Was he born Germany and emigrated to England? Records?
Did he emigrate again - due to WW1?
If he changed his name - due to WW1 - deed poll records?
Obit in Times Digital Archive or local NW news paper?
Got to go time to go home from work - ho ho ho
David
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You mentioned a child born in 1903 in your first post so it looks like the family may have arrived in England well before the start of World War I in 1914.
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WOW Thanks everyone
Some of that has got my head spinning.
I don't know about Emma And Charlotte. They could be from the same family.
I have a copy of Gustav's marriage certificate his father is Julius Heise a Bandmaster (sounds Interesting).
1901 census living in Fulham.
Julius Heise b 1832 Berlin German Subject
Bertha
Ernest and Ellen with daughter Florence aged 3
I have deduced that Florence was not Ernest' s daughter but Gustav and Sarah's I have a copy Birth certificate. She was born a few days after the wedding. She became my Great Aunt.
Also 1901 census
Sarah Heise was living with Edith aged 1 at 244 Cornwell Rd, Kensington, Edith became my Grandmother.
1904 Gustav and Sarah are living 28 Clarence Rd Poulton cum Seacombe Birkenhead where they have a son Julius Paul who died at 28 days of syphilis.
Ernest and Ellen were living in a nearby street.
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Michael,
The IGI baptism record of Gustav Paul Heise (pronounced incidentally Gustaf Powel Hyz-uh) names his parents as
Julius Heinrich Heise and Wilhelmine Bertha nee Gollax
The surname Gollax appears to have been very unusual. I could only find one mention in a town formerly known as Landsberg an der Warthe = Gorzów Wielkopolski in modern western Poland.
This all ties in geographically with Julius being born in Berlin. The Berlin Address Book of 1835 records several Heise families.
Justin
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Hello Michael,
Have you tried searching for HEISE in the National Archives catalogue?
There is a file from 1933 regarding the re-admission to British nationality of Sarah Jane Heise of Birkenhead!!! Would make very interesting reading. It could mean that the yencountered problems during WWI if Gustav was not naturalized at the time.
Gustav's birth and baptism in Danzig (Gdansk) is also contained in the IGI on www.familysearch.org (http://www.familysearch.org)
It can be surprisingly difficult to research these 'recent' ancestors. My late father did not even know exactly when his grandfather had died.
You have a fascinating journey ahead of you.
Justin
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Michael,
The IGI baptism record of Gustav Paul Heise (pronounced incidentally Gustaf Powel Hyz-uh) names his parents as
Julius Heinrich Heise and Wilhelmine Bertha nee Gollax
The surname Gollax appears to have been very unusual. I could only find one mention in a town formerly known as Landsberg an der Warthe = Gorzów Wielkopolski in modern western Poland.
This all ties in geographically with Julius being born in Berlin. The Berlin Address Book of 1835 records several Heise families.
Justin
Thanks Justin we must have been diong this at the same time. I tried to find his bro. ernest but without success. Must get on with some work now!
Michael
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Useful to understand the history of where the IGI Gustav Heise was born:
11 OCT 1874 Sankt Trinitatis, Danzig Stadt, Westpreussen, Preussen
West Prussia was a province of the Kingdom of Prussia 1773–1824 and 1878–1919/20 which was created out of the earlier Polish province of Royal Prussia.
After Germany was defeated in 1918, in February 1920 it handed over West Prussia's central parts to become the so-called Polish Corridor and the Free City of Danzig.
Following conquest by the Soviet Army in the early months of 1945, German-speaking citizens of the former Free City of Danzig were killed and expelled, and the city was put under Polish administration under its traditional Polish name, Gdansk, and Polish people were brought in as replacement.
So Polish connectiions should not be surprise, though we have yet to confirm that the IGI entry for Gustav P Heise is or is likely to be our man.
David
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I wonder:
During World War I the British government interned male citizens of the Central Powers, principally Germany, Austria-Hungary and Ottoman Turkey. They were held mainly in internment camps close to Peel, and a smaller one near Douglas.
http://www.gov.im/mnh/heritage/library/bibliographies/internment.xml
shows what records are available. But ...
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SUSSEX-PLUS/2001-08/0996904696
(Extract of non-copyright site):
"Very few records of individual internees survive for the First World War.
Specimen lists of German subjects interned as prisoners of war in 1915 and
1916 can be found in WO 900/45 and WO 900/46 and a classified list of
interned enemy aliens can be found in HO 144/11720/364868 , a facsimile copy
of which is available in the reading rooms at the PRO. Nominal rolls of male
enemy aliens of the age of 45 and upwards, submitted to the Secretary of
State by commandants of internment camps, are included among a census of
aliens in the United Kingdom from 1915 to 1924 in HO 45/11522/287235 .
References to individual internees can also be found among the card index to
the Foreign Office general correspondence in the PRO. Any reference found on
a card needs to be turned into a modern PRO reference. Not all files have
survived".
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Could be something could be nothing, but the age and date of arrival tally with DOBish, might explain where he had been:
Gustav Heise aged 50 / Locksmith
Birth: Germany
Depature port: Corral Chile
ports of voyage
Corral, Valparaiso, Callao, Puerto Chicama, Guayaquil, Buenaventura, Crist=Bal and Curacao
Arrived Liverpool 11 June 1936
Name of Ship Boskoop
Shipping Line Royal Netherlands Steamship Company Ltd
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Now if Gustav's father was Julius (connecting with the Berlin Birth) then this is interesting:
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nychauta/CEMETERY/ForestHill/FHC31.html
Fortest Hill Cemetry, Chautauqua County, New York State
Name Birth
(Residence) Death
(Residence) Father
Mother Spouse Secn/Lot
Interment Notes
Heise, Herman Julius 8/06/1863 (Berlin, Germany)
7/24/1937 (Dunkirk, NY) Geo Heise
AA/185
7/26/1937
So maybe Gustav emigrated to Bitain with his parents, who then moved to the US and Gustav remained and married. this is speculation and needs supporting evidence.
David
???
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Could be something could be nothing, but the age and date of arrival tally with DOBish, might explain where he had been:
Gustav Heise aged 50 / Locksmith
Birth: Germany
Depature port: Corral Chile
ports of voyage
Corral, Valparaiso, Callao, Puerto Chicama, Guayaquil, Buenaventura, Crist=Bal and Curacao
Arrived Liverpool 11 June 1936
Name of Ship Boskoop
Shipping Line Royal Netherlands Steamship Company Ltd
That's not him because he was born in 1874 according to the IGI record.On his marriage certificate and the childrens birth certificates he is a hairdresser.
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Thanks everyone
Its all got very interesting and slightly confusing.
I never expected to be able to find the German record of his birth and his mother Bertha's maiden name. But still no record of brother Ernest or where any of them died. The Forest Hill cemetery is not right because the second names are wrong.
Some of the links are to my earlier posting at another place.
Great stuff
Michael
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Michael,
I really think your next step has to be to order the file on Sarah Jane Heise from the National Archives.
Justin
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Could be something could be nothing, but the age and date of arrival tally with DOBish, might explain where he had been:
Gustav Heise aged 50 / Locksmith
Birth: Germany
Depature port: Corral Chile
ports of voyage
Corral, Valparaiso, Callao, Puerto Chicama, Guayaquil, Buenaventura, Crist=Bal and Curacao
Arrived Liverpool 11 June 1936
Name of Ship Boskoop
Shipping Line Royal Netherlands Steamship Company Ltd
That's not him because he was born in 1874 according to the IGI record.On his marriage certificate and the childrens birth certificates he is a hairdresser.
I know that it doesn't seem to fit exactly, but don't dismiss it out right; let the evidence exist and see what else builds.
I quite like the idea of a translator misinterpretting hairdresser (ie Gustav's occupation) for locksmith - but then I like crosswords.
:D ;D
David
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Michael,
I really think your next step has to be to order the file on Sarah Jane Heise from the National Archives.
Justin
I agree, see what seeds come out of it.
David
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Hi David and Justin
I will order that file I don't know what details will be in it but it may be that she re applied for British Citizenship after Gustav died which would tidy things up a bit. I also want to persue Ernest and Ellen nee Henbrey and their off spring Max Ella Millicent and Joan.
Michael
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My gut feeling is that WWI and anti German feeling almost certainly accounts ofr Gustav's 'disappearance' be that via internment, deportation, emigration or change of nationality. Each will have a paper trail some stronger than others.
It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that he went back to Germany and fought for them and perhaps didn't survive the conflict, or even fought for the Allies?
Just thoughts - which you have probably already had yourself
David
Post Script: Have just re-read your orginal post and note the birth of an off-spring in 1921 which de-bunks the theory of death in WWI; hoever, there is a record of a death of a Gustav Heise in WWI at:
http://www.findmypast.com/MilitarySearchCountServlet
Which I am unable to access not having a subsricption - any kind sol who would do this ......?
No mention on:
http://www.cwgc.org/
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Post Script: Have just re-read your orginal post and note the birth of an off-spring in 1921 which de-bunks the theory of death in WWI; hoever, there is a record of a death of a Gustav Heise in WWI at:
http://www.findmypast.com/MilitarySearchCountServlet
Which I am unable to access not having a subsricption - any kind sol who would do this ......?
The one mentioned above is Private William Gustave HEISE
He was in the London Regiment 10th (County of London) Battalion (Hackney).
born in Leytonstone, enlisted in Hackney, lived in Stoke Newington .
died 28 December 1915 At sea.
Regards
Carol
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Hi All,
Just a suggestion.
If Sarah died as widow of Heise under the name Paul in 1954, and Julius the son died of syphilis 1904 , then one would presume that Gustav was the one that passed it on to his son. As this is a horrible disease he probably died in a hospital/asylum., and could have been in and out of one for years.
Possible death;
Gustav PAUL aged 42, Edmonton 3a 371
OOPS in 1904
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Dec Quarter 1900 – Kensington 1a 362 Lists these marriages:
Hanley Esther
Heise Ernst
Heise Karl Willy E
Henbrey Ella Frances
Leyland William Robert
Who is Karl Willy? :-\
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Looks like his real name was Karl Willy E but he went by the name of Ernst.
Hence both names being entered in the indexes.
Carol
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Michael,
Regarding the re-admission to British nationality, it could mean that she and Gustav lived outside the UK for a period of seven years after he had become a British subject.
Normally, this should not have affected her nationality. However, I wonder if she became a German national to evade internment in Germany during WWI?
The husband of my ggf's sister was stripped of his British nationality for the above reason in 1919 I recall.
Justin
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If she married a German national before WWI then I believe she would have had to take on her husband's citizenship and would have had to reapply for British citizenship (either through her husband if he was applying for citizenship or on her own later on).
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Looks like his real name was Karl Willy E but he went by the name of Ernst.
Hence both names being entered in the indexes.
Carol
Thanks Carol
When I applied for marriage certificates for Ernst And Karl Willy as I was intrigued I thought perhaps K.W was another brother and they were having a double wedding but they kindly rung me from GRO to say he was the same person but I hand't thought of looking fro K.W in the IGI so will do.
Thanks
Michael
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I wonder:
Medal card of Heise, Ernest C
Royal West Surrey Regiment
Reg No S/21643
Acting Corporal
1914-1920
Cat Ref WO 372/9
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?queryType=1&resultcount=1&Edoc_Id=2977062
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Michael,
I really think your next step has to be to order the file on Sarah Jane Heise from the National Archives.
Justin
I agree, see what seeds come out of it.
David
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=5121732
Nationality and Naturalisation: Heise, Sarah Jane (re-admission), from Germany. Resident in Birkenhead. Certificate AZ3255 issued 27 July 1933.
Closed Or Retained Document, Open Description, Closed For 100 years
This document was closed under the Public Records Act or is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. It is possible to request a review of the information it contains under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and this will trigger a review.
You really must get them to review this file and then post the findings ..... how exciting
:o
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If she married a German national before WWI then I believe she would have had to take on her husband's citizenship and would have had to reapply for British citizenship (either through her husband if he was applying for citizenship or on her own later on).
Hello aghadowey,
My German ggf married a British woman in 1878. Only he had to apply for naturalization in 1902, his wife was not even mentioned in the application (made in Cape Town). His brother also married a Brit in 1880; his application for naturalization in 1891 (in London) was clearly only for himself.
I do not believe that it was possible to loose one's British nationality simply through marriage.
Do you have any examples from your family?
Justin
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Michael,
I really think your next step has to be to order the file on Sarah Jane Heise from the National Archives.
Justin
I agree, see what seeds come out of it.
David
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=5121732
Nationality and Naturalisation: Heise, Sarah Jane (re-admission), from Germany. Resident in Birkenhead. Certificate AZ3255 issued 27 July 1933.
Closed Or Retained Document, Open Description, Closed For 100 years
This document was closed under the Public Records Act or is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. It is possible to request a review of the information it contains under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and this will trigger a review.
You really must get them to review this file and then post the findings ..... how exciting
:o
Can someone help me clarify my thoughts? Is this saying that Sarah Jane Heise (hopefully nee Hartwell) returned from Germany (that's what I think)? If so how can we find out when they, assuming that Gustav went with his wife, left the UK? What paper trail?
David
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Hello David,
With a bit of luck, the file at the NA will answer those questions. Sarah would have had to justify her claim to re-admission with documentary evidence.
Justin
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Justin
Hopefully Sky Blue will resource the document and we canmove forward. IF Sarh J H moved to Germany, would there be some German paperwork raised? If he joined the German Armed Forces would there be a record? If he died - record?
david
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Probably not relevant, but:
Gustav Heise from Chicago (USA) travelled at 06 September 1922 on the ship 'George Washington' from Bremen to New York
http://genealogy.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=genealogy&cdn=parenting&tm=12&gps=208_190_1020_599&f=00&tt=14&bt=0&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.schiffslisten.de/index_en.html
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Some listings in Liverpool directories:
1911 Liverpool
Heise Carl, clerk, 35 York Avenue, Great Crosby
Heise Fritz Gustav, accountant, St Andrews Birkenhead Road, Great Meols
1915 Crosby & Waterloo
Heise Carl, South View, Myers Road, Great Crosby
1938 Liverpool
Heise Charles Hy wharfinger 5 Harbord Road Waterloo
Heise Fredk Geo Director 33 Meols Drive Hoylake Wirral
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Non Copy Right Extract:
Daily Kennebec Journal
May 28, 1915
(Associated Press Correspondence)
London May 15—The announcement that all Germans In England are to be interned or repatriated has brought a flood of worried visitors to the American Embassy which is now entrusted with the task of caring for the interests of Germans In England.
Most of the visitors are German women who regard with the [utmost?] apprehension the idea of being sent to Germany. Some of them expressed a desire to be allowed to go to the United States Instead, declaring that the task of finding a living would be there than in Germany.
When war broke out there was a large number of German women clerks, typewriters students, commercial travelers and tourists but those with few exceptions have already repatriation [sic]. The women who are here now are mainly wives of German men who have been interned or middle aged. German women who have lived here so long that they have lost touch with their own country. Although their sympathies are generally German, they have no desire to go into the midst of war [??] or to be thrown on their own resources in Germany at a time of peculiar economic tension like the present.
Few of them however have been able to find work in England since the war began with the exception of the German cooks who are apparently just as much sought after in English families as before the war.
There has been a considerable amount of privation and suffering among self supporting German women in England and among women married to interned Germans here. Only one per cent of the German men at large in England on May 1 were employed and there was much poverty. The German government, through the American authorities, makes an allowance in needy cases paid through the German Benevolent Society. The allowance amounts to $2.50 a week. plus 75c a week for each child, and is paid to German wives of interned Germans. The English government makes a grant of about the same amount to the English wives of Interned Germans
I would do some research here:
http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Internment
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Probably not relevant, but:
Gustav Heise from Chicago (USA) travelled at 06 September 1922 on the ship 'George Washington' from Bremen to New York
http://genealogy.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=genealogy&cdn=parenting&tm=12&gps=208_190_1020_599&f=00&tt=14&bt=0&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.schiffslisten.de/index_en.html
Could be him the age is 2 years out.
Michael
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http://www.agfhs.org.uk/about.html
This Anglo-German Family History Society are apparently very good and getting past brick walls with German Ancestors - I would say join them and enlist their services.
If you do make any advances please let us know, we are 'hooked'! (lol)
David
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Probably not relevant, but:
Gustav Heise from Chicago (USA) travelled at 06 September 1922 on the ship 'George Washington' from Bremen to New York
http://genealogy.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=genealogy&cdn=parenting&tm=12&gps=208_190_1020_599&f=00&tt=14&bt=0&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.schiffslisten.de/index_en.html
Could be him the age is 2 years out.
Michael
If it is him we should be looking for records of Gustav Emigrating to the US as the record above says that he is from Chicago.
David
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What do we think:
http://www.findmypast.com/passengerListPersonSearchStart.action
HASE Gustav born 1876 M - 1926 Liverpool to Canada, Saint John, NB
Could be worth a look
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Another possible (same fields off find my past):
HASS Rudolf Unknown M 1903 Liverpool Canada Montreal
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Just on this topic of wartime name changes - that Fritz Gustav Heise who was in the Liverpool directory in 1911 is the same person as the Frederick George Heise who is in the 1938 Directory. The notice of his change of name was published in the Gazette on 2 July 1915.
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Hello Michael,
Have you tried searching for HEISE in the National Archives catalogue?
There is a file from 1933 regarding the re-admission to British nationality of Sarah Jane Heise of Birkenhead!!! Would make very interesting reading. It could mean that the yencountered problems during WWI if Gustav was not naturalized at the time.
Gustav's birth and baptism in Danzig (Gdansk) is also contained in the IGI on www.familysearch.org (http://www.familysearch.org)
It can be surprisingly difficult to research these 'recent' ancestors. My late father did not even know exactly when his grandfather had died.
You have a fascinating journey ahead of you.
Justin
Fromm the Gazette Issue 33975 published on the 5 September 1933
NATURALIZATION.
LIST of ALIENS to whom Certificates of
Naturalization have been granted by the
Secretary of State, and whose Oaths of
Allegiance have been registered in the Home
Office during the month of August, 1933.
The date shown in each case is the date on
which the Oath of Allegiance was taken.
*Heise, .Sarah Jane; Germany; Hairdresser;
28, Balls Road, Birkenhead. 28 July, 1933.
* 'He-admission to British Nationality.
No mention of Gustav
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*Heise, .Sarah Jane; Germany; Hairdresser;
28, Balls Road, Birkenhead. 28 July, 1933.
That address was a hairdresser's shop in 1938 Kellys ..proprietor Muriel McShane.
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Trying to find Sarah J H on a passenger ship into UK
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For the record 1901 Census
RG13 27 Folio 88 Page 17
HEISE, Sarah (b. 1872) and daughter Edith (b. 1899) are at 244 Cornwall Rd, Kensington
Can't see Gustav anywhere though - a real Lord Lucan!
Don't think this is right:
RG131/89/29/16
Heise Gastav, single 21, goldsmith, germany
But
Julius Heise(b. 1832 Berlin), wife bertha(b. 1845 Berlin), son Ernest b. 1870 Berlin) his wife Ellen and their daughter Florence are at 7, Poplar Grove, Hammersmith
RG13 Piece: 50 Folio: 89 Page:36
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Florence was born in London and there is no mention of any of the Julius, Bertha, Ernest, Gustav clan in the 1891 census so it would appear that they arrived in the UK between 1891 and 1898
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Sarah may not have left the UK. Under the 1870 Act she would have lost her British nationality when she married a German national. The 1933 Act would have automatically restored it, and this gazette item may be simply recognising the re-admission to British nationality.
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This is a real headache isn't it? If their baby died of syphilis, the it can take 20 years for it to get to the brain which may mean (if Gustav was the donor) that he may have lived until 1925ish as a maximum. I can't find him on the 1901 census or any of them on the 1891 so our maximum window of finding Gustav in this country would be 1892-1925 give or take a bit.
Its not impossible that they left the country, it would be great to know what's in that National Archive folder which has a 100 year's notice on it.
What are your thoughts Shaun?
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Hi Williamscdr,
I am glad someone is thinking along the same lines as me :)
As in my earlier posting think the Gustav Paul death I found in 1904 IS a possibility, as it is just after their sons death. Age is a little out but if died in hospital could be fault of informant. Also Sarah died under the name Paul in 1954.
Trish
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It won't do any harm to ask for a review of the papers at TNA under FOI.
Michael should point out that he is a descendant, say that Sarah is deceased and when she died, and that he wishes to know if the papers shed any light on her marital status at the time of her re-admission to British nationality, on the whereabouts of her husband (his great grandfather), or any other information relevant to his family history research. The application can be made online.
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For the record 1901 Census
RG13 27 Folio 88 Page 17
HEISE, Sarah (b. 1872) and daughter Edith (b. 1899) are at 244 Cornwall Rd, Kensington
Can't see Gustav anywhere though - a real Lord Lucan!
Don't think this is right:
RG131/89/29/16
Heise Gastav, single 21, goldsmith, germany
But
Julius Heise(b. 1832 Berlin), wife bertha(b. 1845 Berlin), son Ernest b. 1870 Berlin) his wife Ellen and their daughter Florence are at 7, Poplar Grove, Hammersmith
RG13 Piece: 50 Folio: 89 Page:36
This is right Sarah and Edith were living at 244 Cromwell road. Edith became my grand mother.
Florence was with Ernest and Ellen But she was not their daughter she was Gustav and Sarah's. The goldsmith is not one af ours as far as I know.
Michael
PS I have applied for the release of the Readmittance papers.
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Hi Williamscdr,
I am glad someone is thinking along the same lines as me :)
As in my earlier posting think the Gustav Paul death I found in 1904 IS a possibility, as it is just after their sons death. Age is a little out but if died in hospital could be fault of informant. Also Sarah died under the name Paul in 1954.
Trish
Apart from the age this is a real possibilty, but I agree that it could be an informant or transcribers error. Just checked and see that Edmonton is a London borough and had 2 instutions which might have records of such a death from syphilis (ie North Middlesex Hospital and Millfield House (former work house)) and also Edmonton Federation Cemetery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton,_London
Millfield was still a school - so no go
http://www.parkexplorer.org.uk/park_intro.asp?ID=enf15
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London Metropoliton Archives:
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/londonGenerations/registerSearch.aspx?panel=results&page=1
Edmonton was in the London Borough of Enfield. The LMA has Edmonton house workhouse: creed registers
which may be useful
The National Archives show that N Mddlesex hospital has records from 1910:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=20&page=42
before then the workhouse above has the information
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This is almost repeat almost too good to be true:
http://www.mi5.gov.uk/output/the-german-spy-ring.html
Karl Gustav Ernst hairdresser in Islington of german descent convicted in 1914 of being the 'postman' in a German spy ring.
:-\
http://www.archive.org/stream/germanspysystemf00exin/germanspysystemf00exin_djvu.txt
I will keep looking but I think we need some detail from the National Archives folder to help focus us. Although the Karl Gustav news is almost certainly unconnected (you never know), it does show the climate for being of german decent at that time. Our Gustav Heise (being a hairdresser as well - like Karl Gustav) must have been very nervous. Perhaps he was interned?
I will keep looking but I think we need some detail from the National Archives folder to help focus us. Although the Karl Gustav news is almost certainly unconnected (you never know), it does show the climate for being of german descent at that time. Our Gustav Heise (being a hairdresser as well - like Karl Gustav) must have been very nervous. Perhaps he was interned?
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Hello everyone
Sorry I haven't been joining in during the last few days, I've been so busy in my business (Picture framer) with Christmas orders.
Thank you all for beavering away finding all sorts of avenues to pursue. Some will be interesting.
I have asked for a review of the Sarah Jane Heise file at National Archives but I expect it will take some time.
I have had the medal card for Ernest C Heise. It doesn't tell much only that he was in the Sussex Regiment .
I am interested in death of Gustav Paul in Edmonton and will order a death certificate.
But look at this 1901 census PAUL HESIE born Berlin 1873 hairdresser living alone in Buxton Derbyshire. Could it be a miss spelling and this is why Sarah and Edith were living alone in 1901. Was he an itinerant hairdresser? It would probably offer lots of opportunities to catch syphilis.
:)
Michael
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Looks highly likely doesn't it, fingers crossed for the 1911 census! When do you expect to hear from the national archives?
Merry Xmas
David
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Happy New Year David and all
I am hoping to have an interesting New Year present from TNA in the next few days.
Michael
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Hi Michael,
Thank you and PLEASE keep us updated on findings.
This is a very interesting chase ;)
Trish
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Hello everyone
Just to keep things going.
Still waiting, but not really patiently for news from TNA.
In an idle moment I spent some time going through the Telephone directories on Ancestry and found MRS S PAUL , 28 BALLS ROAD, BIRKENHEAD. ( Ladies and children's hairdresser) From 1923 to 1933. So it would seem she went under both names because when she applied for re nationalisation she used the name SARAH JANE HIESE.
I wonder if she ever changed her name officially by deed poll. Would there be any records of that anywhere.
Edith married in Dec 1923 from 28 Balls Road, Fathers name Paul Heise (Hairdresser) in he presence of Sarah Heise and Florence Heise .
Michael
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UPDATE
I have just received an e mail from TNA to say that the document regarding Sara Jane Heise (Paul) Nationality and Naturalisation: re admission is to be released and will be available from January 15 th.
As I live 200 miles from Kew I will have to order a copy so I expect it will be a couple of weeks before I know any thing. But it is progress.
I still want to know what happened to the rest of the family i. e his parents Julius and Bertha. Also brother Ernest and his wife Ellen plus their children twins Max and Millicent born in Birkenhead in 1903 and Joan born in Kensington in 1921! I find it odd that there are no records of marriages for any of them.
Incidentally Ernest was an assistant hairdresser on all the certificates I have so he did not progress very far. apart from his possible war service which I must pursue. Whereas Gustav was an assistant hairdresser at his marriage but on Sarah's death certificate he was a Master Hairdresser. WOW!
If Gustav had syphilis and infected the baby Julius Paul who died at 28 days why was Sarah not infected?
Michael
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HELLO EVERYONE
The 1911 census has come up with the goods
Heise Paul, Head, Hairdresser b. Germany
Heise Sarah, Household duties, b. Middlesex
Heise Anna Florence, School
Heise Edith, School
Heise Bertha, Widow
So they are all here living at Balls Road Birkenhead as a family .Julius has died. But where?
I cant find Ernest and his family.
What happened next?
Michael
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http://cheshiredirectories.manuscripteye.com/
- interestingly in 1910 there's at 28 Balls Road a hairdresser - R. Paul.
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http://cheshiredirectories.manuscripteye.com/
- interestingly in 1910 there's at 28 Balls Road a hairdresser - R. Paul.
I am not sure who that is but it is probably Gustav using an English name probably for business purposes. He did seem to use variations of his full name which was Rudolph Gustav Paul Heise.
Michael
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Any news yet on the national Archives file? Doesn't the clock tick slowly ;D
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Thanks for keeping up the interest. I am expecting something in the post in the next few days. Once they had agreed to release the file I had to wait a few days until it became available then I had to get an estimate of the copying cost. Then to apply for it ,so it's all taken some time. Our post here out in the wilds of Wales doesn't come until about 11am. Hope I wont be dissapointed when it comes.
Michael
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THE GREAT UPDATE
So the file has arrived.This is the gist of it from the police report to the Home Office to support her application to be readmitted to British Citizenship. As I had suspected Sarah Jane was known as Mrs Paul for business purposes.
They had a hair dressing business in Balls Road Birkenhead and the customers were of the better class, they employed 2 girls and also lived there.
In 1914 Rudolph Gustav Paul Heise was interned in a camp in Lancaster.
On his release he returned to Germany and was in interpreter with the British Forces. Sarah did not hear from him for several years until he started writing to her demanding money, which she sent. Eventually he demanded that she sold the business and joined him in Germany. When she refused he instigated divorce proceedings in Cologne. She had the business valued and sent him a third. So they were divorced in 1930 and in 1933 she applied for re admittance to British Citizenship. She did not have a passport and had never been abroad. She was well respected in the local community.
Florence was living with her. Edith my grandmother was now married and living in Blackburn. My mother would have been 9 at this time but knew absolutely nothing.
So, quite satisfying really I suppose that now we know where he went it would be possible to find out about his death.
We still know nothing of the rest of his family brother Ernest and his family and parents Julius and Bertha.
Soon after this Sarah and Florence went to live in Parkgate on the Wirral, where they carried on the hairdressing business on the seafront and Florence became a respected breeder of Cocker Spaniels.
Thanks you to everyone who helped me with this.
Michael
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Wow what a great result - nice to see that our hunches on internment were correct. I wonder what happened to him during WW2? You can't help but speculate as to whether he rued his decisioin to stay in Gemany during Hitler's rise to power and then during the 2nd war, or, whether his allegiences changed. At least you now have resolution on that line of the family, unless of course you try to find living relatives in Koln / Germany!
Warm regards
David
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The Cologne City Archives (Historisches Archiv der Stadt Köln):
http://www.stadt-koeln.de/5/kulturstadt/historisches-archiv/
Although how much information they'll be able to give by mail I'm not sure.
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Many thanks for the link.
I have found someone who speaks German and was going to ask her to contact the archives for me but I saw a photo in todays Daily Telegraph showing the building in ruins. Apparently it has fallen down.
Michael
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I saw a photo in todays Daily Telegraph showing the building in ruins. Apparently it has fallen down.
see Topic: Cologne archives collapse.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,365875.0.html for more on this
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Hi all,
This message is primarily aimed at carol, but I'd appreciate any help from anyone!
Carol - Your note about William Gustave Heise intrigues me as that's exactly who I'm searching for, and matches where he lives etc.
I'm actually trying to trace his daughter. Lilian Cecila Heise (married into the Cutler family in 1926).
I wondered if you knew any more about William or Lilian, as I'm trying to locate when & where Lilian died and is buried.
Any help would be much appreciated,
Many Thanks,
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Hello
I do hope you get some results from your search. You are the first person I have come across searching for a Heise I wonder if they are any connection to mine?
Michael
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Hi there,
Unfortuntanately, the only names I have are William & Lillian and they lived in the London area (mainly East End) during the first world war.
I have no idea of their origin, and even where they went to as I only have marriage certificates & birth records. Lilian appears to have not died in the UK though as there is no death record for her. (and she'd be 110 by now...)
Do the names match up with anything you have?
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Hello
Many thanks. Alas the names William and Lillian do not connect as far I my researches have gone. Do please get in touch if you find any link to Julius,Gustav or Ernest.
Michael
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paolo 75
It is possible that your people changed their surname during the war.
Michael
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I think this is your Heise family in 1901, Paolo
RG13/1615/5/2
18 Park Grove Road Leyton
George G Heise 31 printer journeyman Poplar
Marion 29 dress & mantle maker Poplar
Willie 10 Leytonstone
Elsie 8 do
Ethel 3 do
Lily 1 do
Free BMD Birth: Lily Cecilia Heise West Ham Q/e Dec 1899 4a 332
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Hi Michael, I don't know how I missed this posting when I was looking up my Heise relatives. I followed your story with great interest and can tell you that you have only HALF the story but you certainly filled in a lot of blanks for me. You went down a number of blind alleys by assuming that Rudolf Gustav Paul Heise and Karl Willy Ernst Heise were two different people, however they were one and the same, my grandfather Rudy, but Sarah Jane was not my Grandmother. You had a lot of names but what you were missing was how they all connected. So now I can fill in a few blanks for you. You can e-mail me at (*)
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to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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This looks as if it could be an interesting day!
Michael
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Hi Michael, thanks for the PM, contents noted. I don't have time now to give you all the details but things will start to become clear when you realise that Rudy Heise had TWO families. His first marriage was to your Great Grandmother Sarah Jane Hartwell and his second (bigamous) marriage to my Grandmother Ella (Ellen was a typo) Francis Henbrey. He married my Grandmother using his brothers name Karl Willy Ernst and after that as far as officialdom was concerned he was Ernst Heise. And where did he keep disappearing too? Simple, He moved with his second family, my Grandmother, their first son Ernest and the twins Max and Ella (Millicent was her second name) to Dublin. I will post more later.
Peter
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This does make things a bit clearer. He married Ella only 2 years after he married Sarah Jane. When they lived in Birkenhead and the second family were born and Julius who died at 28 days they only lived a couple of streets apart. I wonder if his parents knew. I always thought that Ernest was his brother.
Oh there is alot to talk about. No wonder my grandmother and her sister would never talk about him.
Michael
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Here's the family in 1911 Irish census-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Pembroke_West/Belmont_Park/11390
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Thank you for that, very interesting, and now we must add Dorothea to the family tree.
Michael
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Hello all Heise relations.
My (maternal) grandmother was Ella Heise. In the 1911 Census of Ireland the Heise family is listed as: Ernst; Ella parents (married for 10 years at that time); Ernst, Max, Ella and Dorothea as children - mother and children all born in England, Ernst senior born in Germany. However, my mother - Edith Evelyn Heise - was born in Ireland in February 1915.
Other bits of information: Ernst Junior died young - from T.B., I think. Max did not marry. Ella married Bill Demery and Dorothea married a man called Kelly, I think.
From earlier items it looks as if Peter is a direct first cousin of mine, and Michael too, I guess.
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What a very interesting thread. I've just read it all the way through, and it's quite amazing.
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Hi Robert,
Yes I am your first cousin and it wasn't Dot that married 'a man called Kelly' it was her sister Sheila, my mother, my dad was Michael Brendan Kelly and known to all as Brendan. I have been in correspondence with Michael and we have been sorting out the family secrets..lol. Its great to hear from you and I will PM you my email address if you want to get in touch.
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New members usually need 3 posts to use PM (Personal Message) system.
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That was my third post on this topic...this is now my fourth..will PM work now?
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It's Robert that only has 1 post- he'll probably need to more to get your message and be able to respond.
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Desperately trying to send Robert a PM but it seems his inbox is full.
Michael
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That message means that he doesn't have enough posts to get PMs.
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"I have had the medal card for Ernest C Heise. It doesn't tell much only that he was in the Sussex Regiment"
Hi Michael
re your comment above - this Ernest Heise is actually my great uncle. My Heise family has always been located in Brighton and seem to have arrived around 1860. My search is as frustrating as yours started out. People disappear, have no death records and I cannot get back to find where in Germany the family came from. I believe they had a difficult time during WW1 and there is some family talk of a name change to Heath. However, I continue to dig...
Anyway, hope that helps you eliminate one mystery person from your search.
all the best
Sally