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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: onefortheroad on Tuesday 30 December 08 15:20 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone.
According to the 1891 Census, my GtGrandmother, Annie Elizabeth Auston was residing at 6 Westgate St., Ipswich with some forty-odd others both male and female.
She, along with the majority of her cohabitants, is listed as 'Drapers Assistant'.
Do any of you kind folk know what sort of dwelling/business property this address was and does it still exist?
Many thanks,
David - Yorkshire.
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Well I can tell you that Westgate Street is about to lose its' branch of Woolworth any day now :'(
At the beginning of Westgate Street today is a large Co-operative department store, however that would not have been there in 1891.
(This should have read Carr Street for the Co-op and Woolies - my mistake)
amended later that same day dear reader
We have an ancestor who was despatched to London to work in a Drapery Department of a large department store and was found living in what today we would call a workers hostel along with many other Drapers apprentices.
Certainly today Westgate Street is one of the main shopping streets in the town of Ipswich. there have been many alterations over the years and much of the centre of Ipswich suffered from 'modenisation' in the 1960s - thankfully, some of it now being demolished and better buildings going up in their place.
I guess directories might yield an answer - there are many on open shelves at the Ipswich Record Office - if anyone is going along (husband just returned from a days researching ).
Pat ...
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I suspect that 6 Westgate Street was part of the Footmans department store. This used to be a major commercial operation in Ipswich, before being taken over (if I remember correctly - it was many years ago now) by Debenhams. Footmans certainly had a large drapery department. It could be that Footmans had a lodging house for its staff next-door. Also on the same side of Westgate Street was the Crown & Anchor Hotel which was advertised in 1874 as a "Family and Commercial Hotel" which in the 1980s was number 10 Westgate Street.
Hope this is of use to you,
Greensleeves
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Hello again,
Footmans (or to be correct Footman, Pretty and Co Limited) were general drapers, complete house furnishers, furniture removers, china and glass dealers, and restauranteurs.
They were at Waterloo House
In my Kelly's of 1937 it shows their address as being
6, 8 and 10A Westgate Street
I had thought they were in Carr Street - doh!
Westgate Street, Tavern Street and Carr Street blend into one long shopping street, most of which is pedestrianised.
Good thing Greensleeves :D
reminded me and I looked them up in the directory.
I will now go and sit on the naughty step!
Pat ...
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Hello again - I couldn't remember either which was Westgate Street (having left Ipswich, the town of my birth, over 20 years ago) so I checked on the site below - there is a link to it in the Suffolk Resources section - and found photos of the streets. I don't know if there are any of the old Footmans store but you might want to check it out, David, as there's interesting stuff in there.
http://www.ipswich2006.com/
Regards
Greensleeves
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Good morning folks.
Come down off the naughty step ,Pat. Your interest is much appreciated and, as the old saying goes; 'time plays tricks'...... or have I just made that up....oh, I don't know.
Anyway, we're planning a couple of weeks in East Anglia this year with the caravan (apologies to following motorists), so a day or two in Ipswich checking the records office is on the cards now.
It's nice to know that the building may still be there. It's one of those things I suppose. Can't quite get my head round what she was doing there and what the 'set-up' at no.6 was. I need to see it for myself.
Thanks again, Pat and a Happy New Year to you and yours.
Regards,
David.
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Hi Greensleeves.
Thanks for the info - it has certainly shed a little light on what was going on in Annie's life in the 1890's.
When we visit Ipswich in the summer we may be able to fill in a few of the gaps and add a bit more detail. It'll be interesting, anyway.
Thanks again, Greensleeves and a Happy New Year to you and yours.
Regards,
David.
ps: I checked out the Ipswich2006 link. Excellent. Thanks.
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Hi
Was Annie from the Suffolk area or elsewhere? If her and the other residents were from other areas then could they have been in training as a drapers assistant there at No 6 Westgae Street?
Ben
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Hello Ben.
Annie was, or appears to have been, something of a free spirit.
She was born in Gt. Bentley, Essex the daughter of a pretty affluent farmer - servant, live-in-teacher, father was privately educated, etc..
She appears in Ipswich, at no.6 Westgate St., in 1891 and in a Leeds lodging house in 1901. Inbetween these dates she gives birth to 2 fatherless children who are adopted by a family in Earsham.
I wondered if she was sent to Ipswich as a young lady to learn the drapery trade, by her parents. But when you look at the '91 census return and see she was living with fortythree others at no.6, the culture-shock for her, as a previously privileged girl, must have been considerable.
Maybe that's why she sems to have 'gone off the rails'. Or maybe she was simply overwhelmed by events. Who knows?
I'm looking forward to the summer when I can actually go there and do some more research into her life.
Many thanks, Ben for your interest and a Happy New Year !
Regards,
David.
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Hi
Yes, if Annie gave birth to two illegitimate children and had no prospects of marrying the father then she would no doubt give the baby up for adoption. That is why many mothers gave up their babys for adoption if they were illegitimate and there were no prospects of her marrying. If there was, then the mother would probably keep the baby and then marry the father. Often illegitimacies can be explained because one of the parents was still married, financially hard up, away at sea etc resulting in delayed marriage plans.
She might have wanted to break free from the privileged lifestyle and hoped to make it on her own, ie independent.
Ben
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Quite so, Ben. I can't wait for the 1911 census to be released - goodness knows what she'll have been upto by then !
David.
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Our Draper's apprentices were from a good background, it seems that you were taken on by a good company who put you through the Drapers apprenticeship and often provided accommodation whilst you were training.
One of our chaps who was apprenticed to the original Bon Marche store in Brixton London and was in a hostel in Lambeth that belonged to the store - met the assistant cashier, who was also living in the hostel.
Must have taken him home to Suffolk at some time as one of his sisters later married the Chief Cashier, same chap!
Might be worth checking with The Draper's Company
http://www.thedrapers.co.uk/ContactUs/1_Introduction.html
to check if any records held on her or on her apprenticeship
Thanks, I am now on the settee with glass poised to see in the new year with my husband whose birthday it is today :D
Happy New Year everyone,
Pat ...
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Hi
Still 40 minutes to go until 2009. lets hope that the new year knocks down many brickwalls.
Ben
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Happy New Year, Pat and all that plus Happy Birthday, Pat's hubby.
That's a very interesting insight into the situation, Pat. You've given the story a new twist ; maybe Annie was not the flighty piece of my imagination.
I take it then that the accomodation provided with an apprenticeship/training of this kind would have been acceptable to a young lady of privilege and not the hovel I had envisaged. Definitely alters my preconceived notion that she had been sent away as 'a last resort' or even, at worst, disowned and ended up at no.6 Wesgate St. out of desparation.
You'll have gathered that, over the years, I have formed in my mind a picture of my GtGrandmother that she may not have deserved. Sorry Annie !
Anyway, some on-site research this summer and then all I have to do is to find out why she had two children out of wedlock in 95 and 98.
There I go again - prejudging....
Thanks again, Pat
Regards, David.
ps; The link is very welcome. I'll be contacting them after the weekend.
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Well David, a possible reason for the illegitimate children was that poor Annie just fell in love with the wrong bloke (or blokes) who promised her the world and then dumped her. Age-old story, I'm afraid - and if she came from a comfortable background, she had probably led a rather sheltered life and was therefore easy prey. Oh dear, there I go, pre-judging the situation..... but whatever the truth, it makes for a very interesting story. Hope you'll post when you find more.
Regards
Greensleeves
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Thank you for the kind greetings David.
I remembered today, that as well as Albert Edward being sent away to Bon Marche in Brixton and living in their hostel in Lambeth (huge list of young men and women in the hostel on the 1881), we also had a young Suffolk man sent to train as a draper in one of the stores in Cambridge - and he met his wife there, she was from Buckinghamshire, they returned to Suffolk to live.
Strange thing is all our drapery apprentices went on to run the family blacksmith and ironmongers in Fram - although we have not yet discovered which of them actually shoed a horse!
One of them was the Census enumerator for Fram too, think it was the 1871.
So all these drapers were of 'good family'.
http://www.senseofplacesuffolk.co.uk/ might have photographs of the centre of Ipswich at the time of your searches.
I attended a meeting at the SRO about a year ago when all of the participants* in Sense of Place were talking about a re-launch of the web site and more resources would be available via the web site. I can only think that either lack of staff or lack of finance has caused a delay in this happening. But keep looking back at the site :)
Pat ...
Including Suffolk Local History Council
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I'll certainly do that, Greensleeves. It may take a while but I will get to the bottom of it - or as near as possible.
When I was growing up, Annie wasn't a topic for conversation in our family.
In fact, I was in my twenties before I knew of her existence. My Grandmother died when I was sixteen and any questions about forebears or origins while she was alive were actively discouraged.
As a result, now in my fifties, I still have a certain sense that there was something 'naughty' about Annie. It's a gut feeling born, I fear, out of the darkness in which her existence was always cloaked.
I've posted a parish record look-up request on the Norfolk section to try and find the birth of her brother (three years her junior and again no dad).
Maybe that'll shed a little light, who knows.
But I will keep you posted as to any developments.
Thanks and kind regrads,
David.
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Good evening, Pat.
You'll probably have noticed a change in the way I view Annie's life.
The word 'flippant' probably best describes my attitude to her up to press.
A quick read of my last reply to Greensleeves may explain the light in which she has been cast throughout the family ; a bit of 'nudge nudge wink wink' to say the least.
I am now determined to get to the truth and put the whispers to bed with regard to Annie's life and just maybe get to know her !
The link to the EESOP site looks promising. I'll keep an eye on that over the next few months.
Thanks again, Pat.
Kind regards,
David.
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Hello David,
I did try a couple of searches on the Sense of Place web site, under Footman Pretty and Co a photograph came up that is at the SPS (Suffolk Photographic Survey) which states, Footman Pretty store but it is in fact their corset factory, shows the sewing machines in the old factory.
Tried putting in Footmans and no matches, tried Westgate Street and SRO has a couple of photographs taken in 2002 when the Queen visited Ipswich.
Not much luck :-[
My husband was at the Suffolk Record Office on Tuesday and was going through some photographs and noticed that although he had worked on the SPS and had identified many photographs, they were still not sorted out properly or they were labelled incorrectly (as they had been before he identified them).
We are both involved with the setting up of Framlingham Archive which will go on-line sometime this spring, similar to the photographic archive for the town of Sudbury - if only all Suffolk towns could have such a web site.
www.sudburysuffolk.co.uk/photoarchive leads the way.
Perhaps Annie, wherever she may be, is pleased that you are finally helping to dispell the myths and stories about her life and you may yet uncover the real story - I hope so.
Pat ...
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Thanks Pat. And good luck with the Framlingham website.
Kind regards, David.
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Hi David and all interested in Annie's plight
Annie's story is quite a haunting one really - full of human interest! I am wondering about her two children: were they both adopted at the same time, or shortly after their respective births? The answer to this might help paint a more detailed picture of her life and her struggles...
Regards
Greensleeves
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Hello again, Greensleeves.
You are quite right, it's haunted me for years; wondering who she was, why didn't her children have a father, why did she disappear and where to !
To put a little more flesh on the bones of the story; from her days at Westgate street, circa 1891, she is next found in Newark, Notts. where Constance's birth is registered in 1895. Three years later, Francis ( my GtUncle Frank) is born, apparently in Earsham. Three years later, on the 1901 census, the two children are down as boarders with the Bedwells. The next information I have is from Constance's marriage certificate dated 1 Sep 1919 : Father's name - Not known to her, adopted in infancy by Benjamin Bedwell.
I have quite a few postcards to Constance, my Grandmother, from her adoptive parents sent during the first war. Both she and her brother Frank seem to have had a loving upbringing with the Bedwells in Earsham. Indeed during the second world war, Constance's daughter (my mother) was evacuated to live with 'Grandma' Bedwell.
Boy do I regret not having pressed for answers while people with the knowledge were still with us. But howmany times has that been said...
One way or t'other, the truth Will out.
Regards, David.
ps; I will try to attach a photo of the two children with their adoptive mother taken during WW1. Hope it works !
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Crikey ! I don't know what happened there. Were they supposed to be life-sized ?
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Hi David - what a brilliant photo! They certainly look a handsome pair, don't they. Am I right in thinking that their names both include 'Asthill'? If so, am wondering whether this is of relevance ie if it could be the father's name? Just a thought...
Greensleeves
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Well I managed to get the photo where I wanted it, just not quite how I wanted it.
But thanks Greensleeves, it is quite a nice shot of them isn't it.
Yes you are right. Asthill is a middle name of both of them. The same thought re a fatherly connection had crossed my mind also. Problem is, where to look; Gt. Bentley,Essex, Ipswich, Newark, Earsham or any point in between.
It's a tantalizing clue but I feel it's pretty near impossible to trace. Shame !
Still, as I think I've said before, the truth will out.
Just a thought mid-typing.....what if he (Mr. Asthill) was a soldier? It would explain the moving around the country. They may have married after the birth of Frank. He may have been killed shortly after. But how would I check on that?
6 out of 10 David. Needs more work !
Thanks again, Greensleeves.
Regards, David.
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HiDavid -
Right.... now, was Mr A a soldier...? Let's be subjective here for a moment and work out if he was, why would Annie be in Newark? Well... it would appear that the Sherwood Foresters/Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry had a base at Newark. Bit difficult w these regiments because they all amalgamated & changed names over the years. However,these regiments did fight in the 2nd Boer War, the Royal Sherwood Foresters going to South Africa in 1899 and not returning until 1902, for example.
Of course, there is no evidence whatsoever that he was a soldier, but why not? Annie certainly wouldn't be the first well-brought up young lady to (as my mother used to put it) 'throw her bonnet over the windmill' for a handsome chap in uniform! Perhaps you have received a message from beyond!
Greensleeves
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Hi Greensleeves.
...."throw her bonnet over the windmill".... what a lovely picture that paints !
I've not heard that expression before; it makes the point beautifully.
Anyway, as you'd nudged me in the direction of the Sherwood lot, I Googled 'Sherwood Foresters Boer War' and it came up with a website which has a roll of honour.
This revealed : Pte 1240 G. ASTILL 1st Btn. Sherwood Foresters. Died of disease, 28 Aug 1900. Buried Krugersdorp Cem. S.A.
Wrong spelling of surname, but surely that would be quite common in those days, I would have thought : The 1901 census has a wrong spelling of Auston for the two adoptees ( it appears as AUSTEN).
However. Back down to earth.... it's still a long shot that things panned out that way. It'd be a miracle if it were that simple.
I'll have a rummage through the ether highway tonight to try and pinpoint a male Asthill somewhere in the UK. It's not a common spelling if the 'h' is actually correct.
Yes, Greensleeves, I could do with a 'message form beyond' -
"Speak up Annie...... you're breaking up !"
Converse with you later, Greensleeves.
Regards,David.
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Well, David, I got an attack of the 'psychic shudders' when I read your last message. Wow! Can that be the answer? As you say, it all seems too easy, but what a coincidence - the name, the regiment, Newark, the date....
As you say, t'will take a lot more research, but yes, it is quite possible that the name is mis-spelled as was common on those days. I must say I am quite flabbergasted at this turn of events....
And yes, my mother's phrase is rather graphically wonderful, isn't it!
Greensleeves
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Good evening, Greensleeves.
I've just looked in the mirror and my eyes are definitely starting to turn square !
No joy looking for a male ASTHILL though. On Family Search there are only sixteen with that spelling for the whole country across the centuries.
On the other hand, there are more ASTILL's than you can shake a stick at. And it seems to be a popular surname in - yes, you've guessed it - Notts.
But how to tie the two (Annie and G.) together, that's the hard part.
By the way, sorry if my last post sent a shiver through you. I must admit I was somewhat surprised myself - almost like a ghost jumping out from the screen. I wonder......naah!
Time for some more digging !
Kind regards, David.
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Hi
Suffolk is known for its tranquility and peacefullness. In my opinion it is one of the most peaceful counties in England. I have many Suffolk ancestors who came from mainly the East but also some from the West near Bury St Edmunds and some from South West near Haverhill.
Ben
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Hmmm.... well David, how about if we try to link the regiment to Ipswich in some way...? Did they visit? Was there some kind of event...? That sort of thing. Hope you don't mind me throwing ideas in, but I really am intrigued, and I am absolutely certain that Annie would like her name cleared and the true story told!
I think that Annie would have met her bloke (whether he be Asthill or someone else) in 1893 or 1894 and the chances are that she wasn't mobile, so he must have come to her, if you see what I mean. And as her next appearance was in Newark, it is not unreasonable to assume that that is the area he came from.
I do think the Ast(h)ill death in SA is a remarkable coincidence though.....
If I find anything else I'll let you know.
Greensleeves
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I know what you're saying, Ben. Were you born in Suffolk?
David
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Hi
No but my paternal grandfathers father came from Suffolk and moved to Essex in about 1905 to work in the mills in Rochford. He later became a cobbler. I was born in Norfolk to Essex born parents.
Ben
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Or was he from Ipswich/Essex/Earsham and merely taken to Newark to enlist?
Constance and Franks' step-brother, Hennes Bedwell joined the army in 1915 but had to go to Manchester to enlist. He was then in the East Lancashire Regt although hailing from Earsham. This was the practice.
All ideas are welcome,Greensleeves and gratefully received.
Here, I'll pass you a shovel. Please feel free to dig !!!
Another question : Were the infants put into a home and adopted from there, or was it informal ie did the Bedwells know Annie ?????
One breakthrough....that's all we need !
Regards, David.
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Still, you're not far away from Suffolk are you, Ben. Close enough to feel an affinity with the county. I feel the same pride and warmth for my home county,Yorkshire.
I always said that if I left Yorkshire, I'd leave the UK.
Still feel the same.
David.
and where the heck did that 'smiley' icon thing come from in the previous post?
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Hi
I have been to Suffolk many times and have visited the villages where my ancestors came from. Letheringham, Easton, Marlesford, Hacheston, Brandeston and many more villages. They are so quiet and picturesque. All of them are buried in the local churchyards.
Letheringham Churchyard is tucked away behind a farm and the surroundings take the rural meaning of Suffolk to extremes as the area is so nice and isolated.
Ben
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Interesting about the enlisting, David - yes, seems quite possible he had to travel to enlist if that was the practice, in which case, Annie might have chosen to accompany him, or he could have sent for her later.
Regarding the Bedwells, I was wondering if they are related to the missing father's family... I think I'm right in saying that Annie gave birth to Francis there didn't she? Supposing the father was abroad fighting, can we assume that Annie planned to have her baby with the Bedwells? She obviously couldn't go back to her parents, could she? And if (as we assume in this scenario) the father was killed, this would have reduced poor Annie to penury, unable to support her children. What a terrible dilemma to be in. If this was the situation, one can understand why Annie chose to 'abandon' her children to the Bedwells, which would have been the best thing she could do for them in the circumstances.
But what puzzles me is that if this scenario is correct, why didn't she and the father of her children marry before he went abroad?
Thanks for the shovel, I hope to put it to good use. (Am currently in a cul-de-sac with my lot, being unable to get back beyond 1541 and unable to link the Suffolk family with an earlier one in Norfolk! So I am quite enjoying this little adventure with Annie...
Greensleeves
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;D - Greensleeves, our Bridges family hop over the border around 1500 and appear in Norfolk, need to get back up to the NRO and do some more research. I know the feeling of being stuck in that cul-de-sac.
I have been visiting daughter, son in law and 9 months old grandson Henry for a few days - in Nottingham, where I have recently begun researching on Henry's behalf, as he has so much information on his maternal family roots, but nothing on his paternal Nottinghamshire roots.
As for your area of research Coombs, still rural and how it has been for so many years, not so much infil building in those villages and with only Letheringham Water Mill open on some weekends in the summer, Easton Farm Park and Hach Fest just once a year - they all remain pretty quiet.
A few years ago I did some research for a friend's father who had been a Barnardo's boy.
I discovered that his mother had been a Barnardo's girl and her brothers had been sent to Canada.
When the three children lost their mother, their father was desperate and left the children with Barnardo's fully intending to collect them as soon as he could cope. When he did remarry and try to get them back, the daughter was in London and the boys across the Atlantic.
I think that 'informal adoptions' in rural areas were not uncommon. More often than not the adoptees were relations of some sort, but not always.
I suppose checking out the Bedwell family would be a good idea to see if any links?
Perhaps the father of Annie's children was considered 'above her station'.
With the family I researched, the daughter sent to London ended up in service in the home counties and had a child - the chap that I was carrying out the research for - and she gave him up for adoption to Barnardo's!!!
However, we were able to work out who his father was, the young master of the house where she was in service (middle name - inherited pocket watch etc etc).
In tracking down today's descendants of that family they welcomed my chap with open arms and said that they feel certain that he must have half-brothers and sisters as his mother was not the first young girl who had been taken advantage of by the young master :o
Their great-great uncle had a reputation ::)
It was a great deal of information for a chap in his late 80s to take in - but he now has cousins in Canada that he telephones regularly and despite his own large family, he now has cousins and their families too.
Sorry to ramble on, but who knows what you might find eventually :)
I'll take a trowel and see if I can come up with any ideas too ;)
Pat ...
Hope I gave you enough smileys :D
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Hi again Greensleeves.
Sorry for the delay in replying. We've had a very rare but extremely annoying power cut.By the time we'd made emergency arrangements, it was back on !
Anyway, yes you're right about Frank. According to the 1901 census, he was born in Earsham so either Annie knew the Bedwells (or knew OF them) or it's pure coincidence that they all sort of came together in the one spot at the right time.
I,ve posted a look-up request for the Earsham parish records to try and find Frank's birth cert. That may give us a little more info - or not, as the case may be.
I've also posted on the Nottinghamshire section to see if anyone knows what kind of property 86 Appleton Gate Newark is.This is the address on Constance's birth cert. for place of birth.
With regard to a marriage Greensleeves, if the lady in the 1901 census in Leeds is the same Annie (this one's spelled AUSTIN and the birth year is a wee bit out), then they may have married. Annie E. Austin is down as a widow in the Leeds 1901.
Hi again Pat. Barnados; now thats an idea. Excuse my ignorance, but were they going at the end of the 19thcentury. If so, would they have records going back that far?
The possibility of a liaison with a gentleman 'above her station' is also in interesting possibility, Pat. Having looked again at Constances birth cert., Annie is entered as Housekeeper Domestic. I wonder if she was actually living and working at 86 Appleton Gate.
Anyway, a bit of light trowel work would be most welcome.
I'll post tomorrow with any updates - said wishfully !
Kind regards, David.
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Hello David,
My friend, daughter of the gentleman I was carrying out the research for, had all the paperwork from Barnardo's. Certainly the children of the family I was researching were placed with them in the mid 1890s.
I think the first Barnardo Ragged Schools in London were set up in the 1860s.
I was researching in Yorkshire.
As we knew my friends father was a Barnardo's boy we were able to get his paperwork, when it arrived we discovered his mother had been in one of their homes too and we were able to send off for her paperwork - which is when we found all the details on the family.
Here is their main website
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/index.htm
Night Night
Pat ...
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Hi everyone.
Thanks for the link, Pat. I've contacted Barnardos and am awaiting a reply.
Well, I've spent all morning trailing through the 1891 census for Earsham and surrounding villages ( Bungay, Homersfield and Ditchingham ), emuneration district by emuneration district and there was definitely no Asthill (of any spelling) .
However, what I did find was the House of Mercy at Ditchingham (run by the Sisters of Mercy) which incorporated the All Hallows Orphanage.
Ditchingham is only two miles or so from Earsham. Were Annie and Constance taken in C1897/8? Was Frank born here? Were the children adopted from here by the Bedwells?
This, surely, is a posibility and would provide the link between Annie and The Bedwells. Or am I clutching at straws ?
Now where did I put that shovel?
David
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All Hallows is still there.
It is an Anglican Community of Nuns who run a hospital - I think nowadays it is just for the elderly (I know a few years ago a friend of mother in law went there to recuperate after surgery in Ipswich Hospital).
Try http://www.all-hallows.org.uk/default.htm
Might be able to find out about their history.
Think this might be better as this is for the whole of the All Hallows Community http://www.all-hallows.org/content/retreats/programme/retreat-houses/all-hallows-house-ditchingham
Pat ...
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Hi Pat.
Thanks again for the links. I've emailed the convent to see if they still have access to records - fingers crossed.
Genuki have quite some detail on the old House of Mercy and the Orphanage
What I didn't know was that Henry R Haggard was a resident of Ditchingham.
I recall, when I was a child, about the only thing that was ever mentioned of my Grandmother (Constance) 's family was that her mother had worked for the famous author, Sir Ryder Haggard as housekeeper.
I'm afraid I long since filed that one, with most of the other family tales, under 'B' for Boloney.
Still, maybe the good sisters will come up with something, or maybe Barnardos.
Regards, David.
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Good evening David - I note the continuing excavations with interest! Am afraid I am back to work now after the Christmas break, so have not had much time to pursue the shades of Annie. However, I have come across this:
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/blagg1910/cartergate.htm
which you will see gives quite a lot of info on Appletongate circa 1910. Seems quite a select area, specialising in scholars and priests by the look of it!
Right, got my shovel, am off again for another session....
Greensleeves
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Hi Greensleeves.
First day back at work, eh. Not a nice experience, I seem to remember. I went into semi-retirement (health induced) in August '07. What a shock to the system that was !
Anyway, what an interesting site that is, Greensleeves. Appletongate seems to have been at the top end of the market doesn't it.
Did you see in one of my replies that I'd had a closer look at Constance's birth cert. and saw that Annie's occupation is given as Housekeeper Domestic. So 86 Appletongate is probably her place of work as well as her abode. Unfortunately, she probably lost her job and home when Constance came along - conjecture again, I know, but it would seem to be the way things were then.
I'm hoping the sisters at Ditchingham turn something up as that would at least be one firm stepping stone on which we could stand.
Well, must get on...
Regards, David.
After thought : There wouldn't be an ASTILL living in Appletongate, would there ?
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David, I think that any old records for All Hallows will be at the NRO, might be worth emailing them to see what they hold (if anything).
Hardly anyone holds records now, they are usually deposited with the local RO.
http://www.archives.norfolk.gov.uk/nroindex.htm
Sorry, ironing had to take priority this evening or John would not have had a shirt to wear to the office tomorrow ::)
Pat ...
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There wouldn't be an ASTILL living in Appletongate, would there ?
Haven't found one yet, David, but still looking....!
Incidentally, there is also a railway station, a theatre and a number of pubs in the street as well, so ample oppoportunity to go off the rails!!!
Greensleeves
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Morning All.
I've used the link to the NRO, Pat, thanks. Received an automated reply ; I should have an answer in three to ten working days. So I think that idea can simmer on the back ring till then. But there are still the good sisters to reply.
I must say, the help and encouragement that you two have given is very much appreciated. I'd most likely have given up on Annie by now - and that would have been a shame because I don't think she's all that far away now !
Thanks. David.
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Hi Everyone.
I think pursuing the Barnardos lead is out of the question at the moment, considering it's a long shot that she was there at all.
The reply from them was briefly ; £35 non-refundable initial fee.
£50 admission package
£65 full history package
With a 300+ case backlog, they are talking about over 6 months wait.
Out of my league on all four counts, I'm afraid.
However the reply from the NRO was a little more encouraging : Surprisingly the records for the refuge and orphanage are still held (if they exist) by the All Hallows convent.
The records for Franks birth in Earsham (if they exist) are apparently held by the 'local superintendent registrar'. Am awaiting contact details.
So, as they say, 'onward and upward'.....
David.
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WOW :o
I am sure that the fees were a great deal less than that just a couple, well possibly five years ago.
I have found the following, do you think this is Frank?
Frances Wentworth Auston
Birth registered Jul-Aug-Sept Quarter of 1897
In the registration districtof Depwade, Norfolk
The volume no. is 4b
Earsham was entirely in Norfolk from 1885, and is in the Depwade Registration Distrcit.
I forget that dear husband not knowing what to buy for my significant birthday a while ago, gave me a subscription to a very useful web site. He renewed it this year, so I just took a look around.
Pat ...
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Hi Pat.
That's brilliant. I have Ancestry and have not been able to find that record.Is that the site you used?
The spelling of the Christian name - would that be the spelling for a male or female, as I believe there is a difference. Mind you, the spelling can be suspect in any name back then can't it.
If we can get the full GRO index it's worth a £7 punt just to rule it in or out.
Just one thing ; there's only one middle name - no ASTHILL.
Could that be another family myth?
Thanks, Pat.
ps; don't forget to iron John a shirt for the morning !!!
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I have found the births for both children and should have added the 'A'
I wondered if the 'A' was added in later to Frank's name, although Constance is listed as Constance Evelyn A Auston
On A......y there are Francis and Frances listed for both sexes, as far as I can remember my cousin Frank is Francis and my friend Fran is Frances :)
By the way, Robert Chambers age 23 was a Draper's Assistant with Annie in Ipswich, and he was born in Newark Nottingham.
Yes, I have set a pile of ironing ready to start on in the next half hour - urgh!
Pat ...
still busy with the trowel :D
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Well what a day.
I've eventually found Frances Wentworth Auston. I don't know how he didn't come to light before, thanks Pat. I've also found his marriage to my GtAunt Annie ( yes, I know, another Annie to confuse things), in 1921. I can still remember the sight of her in one of those wrap-around aprons, skinning live eels in the kitchen before frying them. Aaah, life was so simple.......
Anyway, I've sent for the birth cert. and I may send for the marriage cert. aswell if it is our Frank.
NRO came back in double quick time with a phone number for the local superintendent registrar's office but they were engaged allthe time and now not open until Friday. I may leave that lead until I see F.W.A.'s birth cert.
All Hallows convent secretary emailed me : They do have records for that period and could I let her have details of Annie and tribe.
That done, we now simply wait for their archivist to turn up and investigate.
The bad news is that the archivist seems to come and go on a whim and it may be some time before he/she is there again. Not to worry !
Robert Chambers aged 23 from Newark. You know, there must have been something that led Annie to Newark. Was it a soldier (G.ASTILL is still in with a chance) or someone she met at work, ie Westgate St. ???
How's your day at work been, Greensleeves ? Only another two to the weekend !
Thanks Ladies. Will converse again later.
Regards, David.
ps... the thing with the eels really happened when I was about six or seven.
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Well, Annie's story is certainly gaining legs now; the only trouble is, it is getting too many! Is she the grieving relict of a Boer War hero, or is young Robert Chambers a wolf in sheep's clothing? Or is there another shadowy figure lurking in the wings? Who did she work for as housekeeper in Newark? Were there any Ast(h)ills, Chambers or Wentworths,for that matter, living in Appletongate...?
I have been doing a bit of delving and can't find Annie's death anywhere, or not at any rate under the name of AUSTON. There are a few Austins, one being at Wolstanton at age 38 which fits, but nothing else a precise match for dates, as far as I can see. As far as Robert is concerned, there are a number of marriages on FBMD for that name in Nottingham (1878,1886,1908) Leeds in 1898 and Tendring (!) in 1890. Also in Retford in 1897.
I can't match the eels story, David, but I do remember standing on a chair when I was about four or five to watch my Suffolk granny gutting chickens.... ah, those were the days!
And brilliant digging, Pat - respect!
Regards to you both,
Greensleeves
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Hi Greensleeves.
I expected you to be relaxing with you feet up and a glass of something in your hand after a hard day's work.
Hello again Pat.
Boy have I got news for you two !
I followed up on your lead,Pat, for Robert Chambers in Ipswich. Nearest I could get on the 1881 census was in Normanton, which is a little village, almost a part of Newark.
He is there with his rather large family,headed by his ag. lab. father.
And guess who their next door but one neighbours are ...........................
...............The ASTILL family.
How's that for a coincidence!
Now treating myself to a small port and lemon. On second thoughts, hold the lemon.
I can't take much more of these coincidences. Surely one of them has to be right.
Greensleeves, I have a feeling that Annie was still alve and kicking in 1901 , in a Leeds
boarding house and she's spelled AUSTIN.
Kind regards, David.
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Hello yew tew t'gether :)
Well I am so pleased that I thought of looking through the workers at the Footman's hostel - having had a similar find with our own family a few years back, I just wondered if there might be a connection to the Newark area.
Just back from Dad's and need to do some housework (our bedroom, bathroom and airing cupboard - which looks like an explosion in a towel factory).
Regarding eels, I too have very similar memories. I was fascinated by them lying in a big 'baking tray' while Nan washed them and then cut them up - I could never understand why they moved about so much - well, I was only about five at the time too.
Off to have a hot chocolate (low cal) - it's still pretty cold and very foggy.
Dew yew hev a whully nice day.
Pat ...
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Now I'm back at work, I find my digging time seriously curtailed..... such a shame. I fear, David, that I have nothing much to report but thought I'd put in an appearance anyway. I'm currently concentrating on 86 Appletongate, Newark, to try to find out what kind of place it is/was. Using the old map of Newark, I've been attempting to deduce where it would be. As properties are numbered from left to right, and from the centre of town outwards, it would therefore seem probably that No. 86 would be on the right-hand side of the road going out of town. It also must have been a fair way along. I see we have the vicarage, Chantry House, and the Friary on that side, as well as land owned by Lord Middleton and the Duke of Newcastle.
Liked the Suffolk accent Pat. Reminds me of the Suffolk saying for when you have had too much to eat: "Carry Oi out, but don't bend Oi".....
Hope the port went down well, David. I am contemplating a gin and tonic later...
Greensleeves
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Good evening Pat, Good evening Greensleeves.
First time on the computer today ! I was forced out of semi-retirement this morning to do some actual payed work. It was nice for a change - only happens once a week, on average - but this was the first since mid December.
My wife thought it was great to get me out from under her feet !
I'll just have an hour rooting about in the past and an early night - shock to the system and all that.
Anyway, blow the calories, Pat. Indulge yourself once the housework's done !
Greensleeves, please don't feel obligated to the search - you do as much or as little as you want. Just know that it is all very much appreciated.And that goes for you too Pat.
I think researching 86 Appletongate and its' occupants is definitely worthwhile, Greensleeves. This could give us new clues as well as putting meat on the bones of Annie's life.
I should have F.W.A's birth cert. by this time next week, so let's hope it's the one that we want.
Have a nice evening, regards, David.
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Hi David - I am really enjoying this hunt - just a pity that work gets in the way! Hope you enjoyed doing a bit yourself today!!! I'll continue with the Appletongate hunt then, if it's okay by you. I agree with you that if we could find out how she was living, it would certainly colour in her picture considerably.
Couldn't wait until later - have gin now. Has been a difficult day at work with meetings.... I don't like meetings any more. Have spent too many hours sitting in them. When I retire I intend never to go to another one....
Greensleeves
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Has been a difficult day at work with meetings.... I don't like meetings any more. Have spent too many hours sitting in them. When I retire I intend never to go to another one....
Ah you say that now Greensleeves ;)
Mmmm! I am viewing a village community centre tomorrow afternoon at Elmswell and at 5pm I have a Committee Meeting for Suffolk Local History Council in Ipswich. I am hoping to change the venue of my annual conference day for Local History Recorders around the county. Let's hope the Committee agree with me.
At least I do not have meetings with irate parents anymore :)
Was talking to John this evening about Footman Pretty and Co, and he thinks that the upper floors of Footman's was in fact where the apprentices and assistants lived.
When he was researching his last book he discovered many assistants were housed in this way.
I am also getting hooked on discovering more about Annie (I think over the past 37 years we have found all our interesting ancestors).
Have a good day tomorrow both of you.
Cheerio!
Pat ...
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Good day to you both.
Well, after a good night's sleep, I was up and at the anc....y site first thing.
If you're happy with the Appletongate line Greensleeves, that's great with me.
Much appreciated. BTW, I don't know if Newark Council may have a department or records which may help. Just a thought.
I think I have to agree with your John, Pat. To house that number of assistants in any form of comfort would take something like he suggests.
Footman Pretty & Co aren't still in existence by any chance are they. Although
employment records from that era would probably have been lost years ago, do you think.
I was also wondering if the G. ASTILL of Boer War fame could have been the son of the neighbours of Robert Chambers in Newark. At least, that's the line I've been pursuing this morning.
Hope your meetings go well this afternoon, Pat. Incidentally, howmany books has John written?
I hope you've had any easier day today, Greensleeves. Still, it's the weekend tomorrow so a large G&T tonight Will be a good start to it.
Speak to you both later.
Regards, David.
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Hi David and Pat - it's the weekend; I made it back to the land of the living once again!
Have not been doing anything other than dabbling this evening regarding our solider, but have come up with the following possible candidates:
BIRTHS
George Astill, Nottingham, 1863
George Astill, Hinckley, 1865
George Henry Astill, Leicester, 1866
George H Astill, Sheffield, 1866
George A Astill, Birmingham, 1868
George Wm Astill, LEEDS, 1869
George Astill, Leicester 1871
George Astill, Barrow, 1871
MARRIAGES
George - Nottingham, 1881
George H - Basford (Nottingham) 1881
Geo Wm - Nuneaton, 1893
DEATHS
None of the above shown as dying in England over relevant period so this leaves our G Astill who we know died in South Africa. But is he one of those listed above...?
To be continued...
Greensleeves
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Right, had a sip of wine,turned over pages of notepad and am ready to continue:
Looks from the 1881 census that the Nottingham Astleys actually originated from Leicestershire (most of them shown as having been born in Ashby-de-la-Zouch and suchlike). But of course these places are quite close so it is not unreasonable that they could move about.
And finally.... I discover that there was a Constance G Astill in Nottingham circa 1900. However, although I can pick her up on the search engine, I can't find any details about her. But is this yet another coincidence....
I tell you David, this is driving me to drink... (Well, any excuse, I say!) Cheers - hope you enjoyed your meetings the other day. I am resolute that I shall never attend another when I am released from my labours, unless they include alcohol and no-one uses phrases like 'thinking outside the box', 'blue sky thinking', 'singing from the same hymn sheet' and so on.
Greensleeves
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Good evening Greensleeves.
My, you've had a busy evening - 'pushing the envelope' as you meeting-type people say.
You've certainly come up with a few potentials there.
I've sent a request off to the Sherwood Foresters archive dept. to see if we can find Pte.1240 G. Astill's parent and home address details.Don't know if they'll keep such records but it's worth a try.
For marriages though, we need to look post '98 and pre 1901 for it to fit.
Our soldier boy looks like a prime candidate as he died in 1900.
Yes, the coincidences that keep springing up truly are astounding. I'm not surprised they're driving you to drink. As long as you're being driven there in comfort......!!
I've managed to trace Annie's family in Essex back to, I believe, 1756.
I keep looking at all the in-law connections as I go and, so far, nothing of any note. Still, it has to be done if only to cover all the angles.
Well, that's me for the night. Glass of port and TV for an hour.
Kind regards, David.
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Good morning, David
Here I am (having first walked the dog in a howling gale) sitting with my laptop and a bowl of Force flakes.... used to be the Sunday newspaper didn't it!
It would be really good if the regiment did have records. I've looked on quite a few militry sites but they all seem to be WW1 and later. I did find an Astill family website which I've marked down for a trawl through, but am aware we could be barking up the wrong tree... but there must be a good reason for Annie to give her children the name of Asthill. On one military website I noted a complaint from a member of the Asthill family that the name was always mis-spelled as Astill.
Now I know I'm supposed to be looking for Appletongate connections, but I think I have developed late-onset ADD. I have got the current postcode from the NLPG but that doesn't help much. I suspect that a lot of changes have been made in the street in the last 100 years or so. I do have a lead which I intend to follow though.
Right, must get on with work. Daughter has interview for uni on Weds and I am helping to put her portfolio together. V stressful time, with A2 modules in a fortnight and Welsh Bacc deadline at the same time. She says she is looking forward to uni for a rest....!
Greensleeves, off to get large, strong coffee
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Hi Greensleeves.
We're also in the grip of the strong winds. They started yesterday evening and are still blowing strong. I took our old boy out this morning too. He was not too impressed with the wind - I think the arthritis was giving him a bit of stick !
When I said last night that, for a marriage date, we need to look pre 1901, I now believe I may have been wrong there, red herring and all that.
The 1901 census has an Annie E Austin from Bentley, Essex, only 3 years out in age (not unusual) and a widow. I was assuming that she was our Annie, but this may not be the case. It dawned on me that if she had been married, her surname would no longer be Austin....ddderrrrrrr - bangs head on wall for effect !
But then again, could she be declaring herself as a widow to portray an air of respectability, given that she is single, living in a boarding house next door but one to a public house.
The spelling or misspelling of her name does not worry me: her ancestors change into Austins in the 1700's.
Anyway, that doesn't detract at all from the ASTHILL/ASTILL link. There simply has to be one - she wouldn't have plucked it out of thin air.
I agree that Appletongate today is probably largely unrecognisable from the Appletongate of the late 19th century. I am beginning to believe that the purpose of urban development is purely to confuse later generations of family researchers.
BTW, fingers crossed for Wednesday. I hope your daughter sails through her uni interview, I'm sure she'll do fine. You'll be more nervous the she will !!!
Speak later. Regards, David.
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Hi David
An interesting thing I noticed today (I do other things besides trawling the internet, honest!) is that in the 1891 Census for Nottinghamshire, a lot of the Ast(h)ills are incorrectly named as ASBILL. Thought you might like to know that because, if you have A*, you could check it out. I don't at the moment but am contemplating joining, once I find out precisely how much I've spent over the Christmas period...
Oh and the only event of note which I can see happening in Ipswich in 1894 was that the Tolly Cobbold Brewery was built. Suppose that could account for a young lady going off the rails..!
Greensleeves
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Hello again yew tew,
Busy weekend, also we had a total white out here too - frost turned everything white. We drove over the county line into Essex to look at wood burning stoves (only thinking about it at the moment as the oil tank is fast becoming a luxury). All the way towards Halstead the trees were pure white - it was like being in a children's magical film setting.
Now the Tolly Cobbold brewery has gone - sad day for Ipswich.
John has written four local history books David.
He is still busy with the day job and will be travelling to Bristol tomorrow. You can see the latest book at www.poppyland.co.uk It's called 'The Commercial Life of a Suffolk Town - Framlingham around 1900'.
He has just had No3 of a series of four articles about mills published in an historical society magazine.
Must away to bed, but hope to pick up on this tomorrow afternoon.
Best wishes for your daughter Greensleeves - I remember those days well. Very stressful for the family but especially your daughter. I do hope all goes well for her.
Pat ...
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Hi everyone.
I just tried to post the reply I received from WFR (Sherwood Foresters) but the file was too large or something.
I'll try and forward it to you both via PM's within the next 5mins.
BTW, don't hold you breath !
David.
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Well that's not going to work.
I'll give the essentials manually :
Thank you for your enquiry. Unfortunately we do not have the home address or next of kin details of 1240 G.Astill on our database. The only details we hold are as follows:
ASTILL G. Private 1240 1st Battn. Sherwood Foresters.
Shown in March 1888 as landed at Bombay on 17.2.1888 and posted to A company 2nd Battn wef this date.
Shown in March 1891 as present at Headquarters on Presentation of new Colours on 5.2.1891
Shown in December 1891 as good conduct pay of 2d awarded wef 10.11.1891 and was with A company.
Served in the Boer War of 1899 to 1902 with 1st Battn.
Joined Battn. 24.3.1900 at Springfontein.
Medal Roll shows was awarded QSA with clasps Johannesburg, Diamond Hill, Cape Colony, Orange Free State.
Died of pneumonia at Krugersdorp South Africa 28.8.1900.
Buried Krugersdorp Cemetery South Africa.
Their archivist goes on to recommend a researcher at the N.A. in Kew, whose rates are reasonable (probably means it'll only cost an arm).
.....//.....
It doesn't give us much, does it. So I dare say we have to keep him as a possible candidate for the time being.
Another three days and I should be in receipt of Francis Wentworth Auston's birth cert., so that may give us something.
Anyway, a cup of coffee, bite to eat and back to it. Glad you had a nice weekend, Pat. Frost and snow look great through glass don't they !
I hate to hear of breweries and pubs closing because they never get reopened and the 'pubs' they build these days ........well, say no more !
Regards, David.
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Hi David and Pat
Very rainy here today - dog refused to go for a walk this morning, which pleased me hugely as it was at 6.30 am, pitch black and a howling gale.
Interesting stuff David, from the Sherwood Foresters. I did a bit of googling (which you have probably done as well) to see that the HQ of the 2nd Bttn was Normanton, in Derbyshire in 1891 when Annie was working for Footmans. He would have gone to SA from Newark, so clearly he didn't leave the Ipswich area to enlist (if we are chasing the right person) as he joined in 1888 and was sent to Bombay.
So yes, he could be the right chap, couldn't he? If only we could peer back into the past... I mean, if he is the one, how on earth did they meet?
Your husband's books sound v interesting, Pat. I have friends who live in Brandeston and therefore have close connections with Fram...
No alcohol tonight, am getting back on the wagon after the festivities lest I get to enjoy it too much!
Greensleeves with a cup of black coffee
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Hi you two.
There are many variables involved in a possible liaison between Annie and Pte.Astill, Greensleeves, as you have no doubt realised. But there is a link at Footman's : IF Robert Chambers (family in Newark) took Annie home at some time and IF his nextdoor but one neighbours (the Astills) had a son in the army who happened to be Pte 1240. Then IF they met...........???? Bear in mind that they had the chance to team up anytime between 1891 and1895.
It's only got two letters, but what a big word 'IF' is.
There again, nothing is impossible and the more we dig, the more (or less) likely we are to turn possibilities into probabilities. Oh, I do hope that made sense !
It would be nice to know when Annie left Footman's and where she went from there. Did she go straight to work in Newark? We may have to accept that certain facts are not going to be revealed to us. Just as long as the relevant ones are !
Nevermind, friends, who knows what tomorrow will bring ?
Bye for now, David.
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Hi All.
Well, today I am the bearer of mixed tidings:
The good news is the 1911 census is online (free to view basics, pay to view detail).
www.1911census.co.uk
The not-so-good news is that Annie's not on it. I've tried a myriad of combinations in an attempt to weedle her out but to no avail.
The slightly better news is that Francis W is there, in Depwade district and this time he's correctly listed as a male.
Slightly confusing is that Constance is not there.
I have a feeling that the 1911 census has been released incomplete. I know there are certain counties which are "coming shortly".
Oh well, I'll try and sort out what we have and look at what Annie's Non-appearance means.
Speak later, regards, David.
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Hi David - and Pat too, if you do be about moi gel!
Firstly, am glad to say that the daughter has today received an offer from Swansea,which has got her into a high old state of excitement. Makes tomorrow's interview less traumatic now that Swansea loves her!
Secondly, a recap based on Annie's absence from 1911: a death of Annie Austin aged 38 at Wolstanton in March 1909. Dates fit, but could it be her? Wolstanton is Stoke-on-Trent, I discover. Another death in that period is Annie Austin who died in Hambledon, March 1910 aged 37; age a bit out here but possible. These are from FBMD.
Regarding the marriage of our G Astill which I mentioned earlier, we can't rule out that he married prior to 1893 because he could have been married to someone else. Which would be a reason why he and Annie did not marry.
Right, now I shall pull myself together and do another trawl of Appletongate and see what I can find.... Oh but first I have to cut out and stick the labels on the daughter's portfolio...... A small glass of sherry, I do think. Resolutions - what resolutions?
Greensleeves
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Hello yew tew t'gether,
Oi am about little ode mawther, but Oi hev been whully busy.
Dew Oi hope to be able to contribute some useful information tomorrow - which is my day orff.
All the best, Cheerio,
Pat ...
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Hi all.
Was I excited this morning or what !
Postman came early and I heard letters landing on the floor.
Grabbed them eagerly to find that the second one I looked at was stamped GRO.
Yippee, I thought tearing at the envelope like a six yearold on their birthday.
Yes yes yes.....it's the birth certificate I ordered last week. GREAT !!!
I opened it up to scan the document and...........oh,oh, 'trouble at t'mill !!
Frank's gender problem has flaired up again.
Yes, my eel catching, WW1 gallant soldier, greatuncle Frank, is a GIRL !!!!
I wonder what his wife thought of that.
So, details are :
When and where born : 12 July 1897, Earsham R.D.
Name : Frances Wentworth
Sex : Girl
Name and surname of father : BLANK
Name, surname and maiden name of mother : Annie Asthill Auston
Occupation of father : BLANK
Signature,description and residence of informant : Annie Asthill Auston.
Mother
Earsham
When registered : 18 Aug 1897
So to recap : Birth cert. : girl
1901 census : girl
1911 census : boy
Photograph : boy
It's something to think about isn't it ......
David. (fed up)
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Oh heck, David - talk about a nest of snakes - or more appropriately, eels! But interesting to note that Annie was by then actively using the name of Astill.
Why on earth would you register a boy as a girl???? Frances certainly is the female spelling of the name. Any chance that Frances died and Annie had another child,namely Francis? Or is there yet more melodrama - "If the child is a boy, you must give it up into the care of.... "
Annie Asthill Auston, you slippery lady, come on - give us a clue!
Greensleeves
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Yes Greensleeves, I can quite definitely say I've had better mornings!
Well spotted btw about Annie throwing the old Asthill spanner into the works again. At least it shows that the name wasn't merely plucked out of the ether for the sake of Constance's birth certificate. It obviously had meaning - I think it's relevent to the whole case !
Franks name on his b.cert. is Frances (girl). 1901, it's Francis (but girl). 1911 it's again Francis (this time boy). I think the spelling is a red herring and my wife came up with a suggestion for why Frank was labelled a girl at birth :
IF, and it is a big IF, Annie was admitted to the Home of Mercy with her children, what IF the sisters only admitted females ?????
Or is it simply an admin error....
I invested in a transcript from the 1911 census this afternoon. Frank's still with the Bedwells, aged 13, at school, single, male, boarder.
Email from Suffolk R.O. : They don't keep military records, try Kew. Awaiting a reply from them.
We now really need a favourable reply from the archivist at All Hallows convent .
And there has to be a Mr. Asthill/Astill out there !
Regards, David.
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Evening all.
I received a reply today from the National Archives in Kew re Frank's military records. Unfortunately the majority of WW1 service records were destroyed during a bombing raid in WW2 and the remaining ones (referred to as the burned records for obvious reasons) are accessible through Anc'y. Sadly, but not unexpectedly, Frank's records do not appear on there so we must assume they were lost sixtyodd years ago.
They did however offer the use of one of their researchers at a fee (starting at £30).
So, in the light of no further leads and the convent archivist not likely to make an appearance anytime soon, I think it would be prudent to leave the search for Annie until such time as something pops up unexpectedly or the convent get in touch.
Whatever, we are making plans to come to Suffolk/Norfolk/Essex in April for a week or two with the caravan. We can visit the NRO and SRO , All Hallows and Westgate St. and dig away with renewed vigour. I'd also like to trace any relatives on the Bedwell side as well as the Austons.
I thank both you two lovely ladies, Greensleeves and Pat for your interest and input and assure you that the search for Annie WILL go on. We will find her!!
As soon as anything interesting crops up, I'll certainly let you both know.
Best wishes to you and yours,
David.
Now who else can I disturb from their ancestral slumbers......
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Evening David
Well if you don't mind I'll continue to ferret around from time to time, because I am absolutely certain that the answer is staring us in the face.... This evening I have been trying once again to find out more about 86 Appletongate because I feel this is v relevant. Am going to have a rummage through the 1901 census when I have time.
So okay, we can put Annie on the back burner, but I'll certainly be trying to winkle her out from time to time. If I find anything relevant, I'll let you know.
Hope you have a good time in Suffolk. Iwant to go over and investigate Rattlesden, Brettenham and Hitcham, but time, as ever, is a problem.
Regards
Greensleeves
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Hi Greensleeves.
Of course I don't mind you carrying on the cause. Anything you can find will be most eagerly accepted and I dare say I'll contribute my four pennerth too.
Having read my last post again, It does sort of sound as if I'm pulling the plug, doesn't it. I'm sorry, it wasn't meant to sound that terminal.
I'm the kind of person who has a thought and follows it up there and then. But at the moment, I seem to have run out of ideas. I know as soon as a small light flashes on in my head, I'll be at the task like a Jack Russell.
You and Pat have been a great help over the past couple of weeks or so and I certainly wouldn't want to 'chop the legs from under you' so to speak. That would be most ungrateful of me. Plus, I've really enjoyed being able to bounce ideas around and getting different points of view.
So, Annie's just simmering for the time being. 86 Appletogate is definitely a big chunk of the story,I feel. Anything you can find, Greensleeves...
Will converse later.
Regards, David.
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Hello David and Greensleeves,
It's been a busy week and will be again next week (Suffolk Carers have found that dad age 88 has no help at all - just me). We have now got all sorts of things lined up including a visit to ascertain where they can put in handrails and grab rails and all sorts. Dad getting quite excited by the prospect of some new faces coming to the house.
Then again ..... I did spend some of my Christmas present money on the 1911 this week and found all sorts of interesting snippets. Unfortunately I am down to 60 credits now so have to think carefully about look ups.
Certainly this search for Annie caught my attention because of our own Draper's apprentices and living in the hostels and the search has been a bumpy ride here, there and everywhere. I have enjoyed the hunt.
Other people always have much more interesting ancestors :D
David if you need anything looked up at the SRO before April just holler. I visit my office in Ipswich about once a fortnight (mostly work from home) and drive past the SRO on my journey and often call in on the way home.
I'll be at the task like a Jack Russell
We rehomed a Jack Russell nearly 8 years ago, so I know exactly what you mean.
Best wishes to both of you, have a good weekend
Pat ...
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Hi again you two.
Good to hear your Dad's getting some help from the authorities,Pat. At 88, he deserves all the help he can get. We went through the same with my wife's parents a few years ago having rails, wider door frames, grab handles in the loo and a bath winch. It took years of begging to get the work done but it was worth it to see the change it made to their lives.
My credits for the 1911 are just about gone.But boy,did I get value for money this morning !!!
I was up early to take the lad out but it was raining and he decided he'd rather have a lie in. So I fired up the old pc and had a last look for Constance Evelyn. I only entered her surname and y.o.b. and 'hey presto', up she popped.
So investing some hard-earned credits, I downloaded the transcript and there was my Grandma living at No.22 Woodbine Place Leeds ; Auston C.E. Daughter Single F 16 At Home b. Nottinghamshire.
Brilliant. Thats her............wait a minute! DAUGHTER?
And when I read the top line: Smith A.E.S Widow Widow F 37 Boarding House Keeper b. Essex.
I am not joking, I just could not believe what I was seeing - it's still making me smile !
OK, you have to put the third initial (S) down to a mistake or something and the slight discrepancy with age (2to3 yrs), but IT'S ANNIE !!!!!! It has to be.
Her age actually matches an Annie Elizabeth AUSTIN on the 1901 in a Boarding house in Leeds, born Bentley, Essex and a Widow.
She's moved across the city to a better area by 1911 and runs the place!
But what a shock seeing her daughter living with her. That's the bit I can't understand. Did she keep in touch with the children after leaving them in the care of the Bedwells for years? And where was that connection? Constance and Frank referred to the Bedwells as Mum & Dad. Indeed in 1911, Frank is still with them. And who was this Smith bloke? And,come to think of it, what happened to the Asthill tag?
Bless her, she did not like being put on the back burner last night !
And true to form she's raised even more questions, like ; was my gtgrandad a Smith or an Asthill. Who were they both.
Answers on a postcard please to:..........
Regards, David ( a lot happier than yesterday ).
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Just splashed out on the full version of the 1911 for Annie and Constance.
Will try to attach it to this reply :
Sorry, didn't work. File too large. I don't get on too well with these new-fangled gadgets !
Anyway I think Annie simply made a mistake filling in the form: She wrote A.E.S.Smith (I think) in the column. But she signed it Annie E.A.Smith (again not sure about the 'Smith').
The next bit puzzles me. In the column titled 'Children born alive to present marriage', she has entered
1 child born alive and 1 child still living. Has she misunderstood the question or is this another of Annie's curved balls.
If either of you want this original emailing to you please let me know.I'd also value your opinion.
Best wishes, David.
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Goodness gracious, David, what an exciting journey we are having - seldom a dull moment! I have PM'd you with my email address as I would really love to see the original, if it wouldn't be too much trouble.
I wonder if Annie adopted the name of Smith to give herself an air of respectability; after all, Smiths are notoriously difficult to trace because there are so many of them. But there is no point in me conjecturing because whatever we decide might have happened usually turns out to be the precise opposite of what actually did!
Anyway, I shall now include Smith in my trawls of Nottinghamshire, Leeds and all places east.....
V windy here tonight - managed to drag the dog out before it got dark so he's now in 'nose-under-tail' mode, and who can blame him?
Greensleeves
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You should hopefully have received the email, Greensleeves. I forgot to ask you what you make of the entry under 'children born alive...., columns 7 and 8.
David.
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Hi David
Just emailed you and get back to find your latest post. I'm afraid the columns you mention are not too clear when viewed from my laptop, but I think either Annie misunderstood the question or was doing a classic Annie cover-up. If she was living as a respectable widow with a 16 yr old daughter, it might set the cat amongst the pigeons to add another child. Easier to describe circumstances as evident in Leeds. After all, they didn't have computers to check up on people then, did they?
So did Annie misunderstand the question - well, quite frankly, the question itself could be construed as being rather ambiguous. Going back to Pat's problems,I would say that it's a bit like the forms you have to fill in for DLA and suchlike. (My husband is v ill and over the past few years we, too, have been trying to find our way through the bureaucratic maze!) Anyway, interesting to find that forms then were just as confusing as they are now.
Greensleeves
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Hi Greensleeves.
Thanks for the email - you appear to be as chuffed as I am at this piece of hard evidence. Well, you deserve to feel pleased; you and Pat have been there all the way (not that we're at the end of the road yet - not by a long chalk).
I've had another look at the 'children alive....' columns and taken a slightly different angle to it :
The question is, 'Children born alive in PRESENT marriage'.
If Annie married Mr.Smith after the birth of Constance but before the birth of Frank then, in THIS marriage, column 7 (total children born alive), 1 is correct and column 8 (children still living), 1 is also correct.
It follows then that Constance's father is probably Mr.Asthill (she carries it in her name) and Frank's dad is probably Mr.Smith. Does that make sense?
Where this theory crashes onto the rocks is when Annie becomes a widow and the marriage is thus at an end! But would she read it like that?
My wife certainly tends to agree with your view that it was taken for convenience and to avoid having to make embarrassing explanations.
However, as a widow, did she really need to answer that question ?
I can now feel a large glass of something that's bad for you coming on !
I'll be back in an hour
David.
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My goodness!
My husband insisted we take a day off, so yesterday we took the dog and went for a long walk along the front at Felixstowe and down to Felixstowe Ferry. Then into town for a snack and a browse around second hand bookstores.
When I connect this morning to catch up . . . . .
This little ode gal Annie did get about a bit!
Regards the A.E.S. - I think that the S is there for Smith - she just wrote down all three initials, than added surname (false or otherwise).
I wonder if it's possible to find the marriage? I have two friends locally, both researching Smith in Suffolk - there seems to be a lot of them just about everywhere in the UK.
Haystack and a needle come to mind.
Pat ...
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Good afternoon Pat.
I don't blame you for taking time out for yourselves, you,ve got a lot on at the moment haven't you. Did your Dad get his visit from the carers re his handles and things?
We found that once all the paperwork and interviews were finally over, the work was done in very short time. It's just the damned bureaucracy that takes the so long.
Yes Pat, I agree with your suggestion about the initials. I'm sure that's what she did - I've made similar errors through not concentrating enough.And they didn't have 'spell check' in those days !
If and when you get a minute Pat, could you check on Anc....y for the 1901 census, please : Annie E. AUSTIN b.1874 Essex, res. Leeds.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that entry - I know what I think....
With regard to a marriage to Mr. Smith, I don't now think it could be before 1897 as Frank would have then had a father on his birth cert.
And if your thoughts on the 1901 census are the same as mine, we can narrow it down to a 10 yr window.
I couldn't do this for a living, you know. The old heart just wouldn't take it !!
Speak to you and Greensleeves later
Regards, David.
ps. I like Greensleeves new cat, don't you .
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Hi David
Dammit, I'm sure Annie is at work here because I just typed a post and the thing disappeared! Still playing her games, I see - bet she was a real laugh at Christmas parties!
Anyway, I thought you might be interested to look at this website which shows Woodbine Place and Woodbine Square, which appear to have been adjacent. Although the area looks a bit grim in the photos, they were taken in the 1960s, probably just before clearance. But some of the properties were probably rather nice at one time.
http://www.leodis.net/
Glad you like my leopard. I started painting about two years ago, and although I paint all sorts of stuff, I find painting animals is becoming a bit of a passion, because they are so, so beautiful.
Greensleeves, with glass of white wine
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Morning Greensleeves.
Thanks for the link. It's a good site - I've looked at it before,when researching another (less interesting) line of the family. I don't think there are going to be many photos of Woodbine Place in circulation although I'm off to Leeds library to check next week.
I had an unexpected message from a member yesterday, regarding a request for information I'd place on the Notttinghamshire section. I asked if anyone knew what kind of property 86 Appletongate was.
This member reckons it was one of a row of desireable Victorian houses and is still there. And to cap it all, they're going to Newark on Saturday and will take a photo of the house ! Isn't that just grand ! So as soon as they email it to me, I'll forward it on to you.
Going to see if I can find a marriage for Annie and Mr.Smith today - haystacks and needles spring to mind !
Will speak to you and Pat later.
Regards, David.
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Evening all (said in my best Sgt.Dixon voice).
Well, I've had a really good trawl through the Yorkshire BMD website looking for a marriage for our Annie Elizabeth to her Mr. Smith.
Put it this way................how broad are our imaginations ? How flexible are we prepared to be with the facts ?
Bearing in mind that on the 1911 census, Annie was a widow named Smith :
1909 ANNIE E EASTWELL ( imagine that in handwriting) married Maurice Smith at Holbeck District Registered Office Leeds.
If that's not a step too far, bear with me....................
1909 Maurice Smith Death in York East District. That is where the 'widow' bit comes in.
If the actual dates fit, and I can see the parish records in Leeds next week, that would appear to be that with regard to her name on the 1911.
One other thing the YorksBMD through up, and one that I'm not at all sure I want to chase up, or even dwell on for too long :
1911 Annie Smith Death in the sub-district of Ardsley, Leeds.
I know there are probably an awful lot of Annies and an awful lot of Smiths in Leeds and it could be any one of them. But I don't want her life to finish when we've only just found her for goodness sake. We'll see .
Anyway, that still leaves the Asthill/Astill connection..............
Plenty more to come out of this tale yet, I feel.
Kind regards, David.
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Hi all.
This is a liittle post by way of a thankyou to a RootsChat member who offered to photograph 86 Appletongate, Newark, Constance's birthplace , for me.
It would have cost me an arm and a leg to go and see the place in person, but this kind member was as good as their word and I received a set of photos by email today.
So many thanks, Larkspur.
David.
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So pleased to hear that Larkspur was able to help with the photographs in Newark for you David.
I shall be going to the SLHC office on Thursday, if you need anything I can call in on my way home?
Did you manage to find a marriage for annie and her elusive Mr Smith?
Off to bed, late as usual ::)
Night Night each,
Pat ...
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Hi Pat.
I did find a marriage record that fits, if A.E.EASTWILL, presumably in handwritten form, could be interpreted as A.E.ASTHILL.
Everything else fits and the marriage was in 1909.
Unfortunately (fortunately for our purposes), Mr Smith (Maurice) died later that same year. This would make Annie, Mrs.Smith, widow, by the 1911 census.
Unfortunately, an Annie Smith died in Leeds later that year (1911).
So I really hope this isn't a true match and am going to Leeds library this week to do some digging there.
Larkspur came good with the house in Newark. I now need to find the family who were there circa 1898, when Annie was there as Housekeeper Domestic.
Yes Pat, on your trip to the SLHC, could you see if they have any information on burials for Beccles, Bungay and Earsham please. Sounds like a firm of solicitors!
I don't need the records, just the appropriate church yards for me to wander through looking for M.I.'s for the Bedwells (adoptive family) and Gt.Uncle Frank Auston. We'll be staying in the area for a week or two in May.
That would be great if you don't mind, Pat.
Speak to you later.
Regards, David.
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Hello again,
Without looking it up - I have a suspicion that Earsham will come under Norfolk Record Office in Norwich. Beccles and Bungay should be with both Ipswich and Lowestoft.
I can check through the Suffolk Burial Index if you wish, and see who was buried and where?
Is it a search for anyone name of Bedwell and Frank Auston?
Better get supper started,
Back later, Pat ...
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Hi Pat.
Sorry,forgot Earsham is actually in Norfolk. I think it's the Suffolk border that curls out around Bungay isn't it.
Anyway, the Bedwells (Constance and Franks' adoptive parents) lived in Earsham. So I'll have to check with the NRO for them.
But, unlike Constance, Frank didn't move away and I think he lived in either Bungay or Beccles with his wife Annie (not our Annie). He was certainly there, in his old age when I met him approx.1962ish.
Anything you can find will be great, Pat. But don't worry if you can't. I'll be down for a couple of weeks in May with time to kill then.
Thanks again, David.
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Hi David - nice to see the house in Appletongate. So, this was where Constance was born. It seems we have built up quite a detailed picture, even without some of the vital facts! I am still amusing myself trawling through the G Ast(h)ills of the time, trying by process of elimination to try to find the likely one. I am assuming that he was the father of Constance, because all the dates fit, but of course I could be barking up the wrong tree. But after so long, I don't think we'll ever get any proof will we? As our soldier died abroad, his death won't be registered in this country. Equally, as a military man, he won't be on the census records either. So if I look for an invisible G Ast(h)ill....
Anyway, this is giving me hours of fun, albeit that I have absolutely nothing concrete to report. Hope things go well in Leeds - I find that one of my Sedgwicks was born in Leeds although the family spent most of their time crossing and recrossing the river between Middlesbrough and Hartlepool!
Regards
Greensleeves
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Hi Greensleeves.
I think you're absolutely right; Constance's father must be an ASTHILL/ASTILL.
I don't think Annie could have married him as Frank would then have had a different surname and a father on his birth cert.
Military must be favourite, but how we can prove it at this stage .........?
I'd love to know when Annie left Ipswich and when, let alone why, she arrived in Newark.
Plus, of course, Annie is using the Asthill handle in Leeds in 1911, so it wasn't merely a fad it had been around for sixteen years at least.
Don't know what I'll turn up tomorrow in Leeds. BTW, do you want your Sedgwick looking up while I'm there? Let me know if you do.
Speak later.
David.
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Hi David
Thanks for the offer re the Sedgwicks, but I've got them more or less. It's my Suffolk Pearl(e)s who remain obdurate!
I have just uncovered an ASTHILL of the right age from Norwich, so I'm off - digitally speaking - to meander down that particular track. I agree with you that the father MUST be AST(H)ILL and it couldn't just be a whim or an affectation. I think we might end up with an "on the balance of probabilities" situation, but nevertheless, it is an absolutely fascinating story.
Have fun in Leeds!
Greensleeves
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Evening ladies.
Well yesterday's trip to Leeds Library was a bag of mixed fortunes.
Had some success with the RILEY line of 1854 but research on Annie was an abject failure.
I had wanted to see if I could put a start date to her residence in Leeds and to prove/disprove the EASTWELL/SMITH link.
To search for Annie either side of the 1901 and 1911 census returns would mean rooting through the electoral roles. I could have as much time with these records as I wanted but was told there'd be little point ; at that time, you were only put on the electoral role if you were a) male, and b) moneyed.
Not to be deterred, I set out to find the marriage of Our Annie only to find that their marriage records for that period were no more detailed or extensive the BMD.
So, having had a look at where Annie's house used to be I called it a day and headed home.
I believe if the library had been less busy - the four staff were rushed off their feet, bless them - there would have been assistance available and other options may have been explorerd. I don't know.
I may be rash and send for the EASTWELL/SMITH marriage cert. to prove yea or ney. But I'll do some digging first to make sure Annie Eastwell is no more than a transposing error.
I wish the lady from the convent would get in touch with some good news. We could do with it !
Best wishes to you both - and anyone else who is following this saga.
David.
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Hi David, Pat and all our readers (I've just noticed, prompted by David's last post, how many people have been following this story. Perhaps it should be made available in paperback!)
Anyway, so sorry that the Leeds venture was a mixed bag. I do think Annie plays games with us, and every time we feel we're beaten she throws a little scrap for us to pick up. About time she threw another one!
I've found a Frederick Astill in Bar Gate, Newark, aged 19 in 1881 census, Railway Clerk. Perhaps he got free rail tickets to Ipswich? Am going to follow him up and see if I can find anything else about him. Bit late tonight; have just got back from daughter's drama group and after hard week at work, don't feel strong enough to go onto A*y, because it's like a time-warp and suddenly four hours will have gone by and .... Am sure you know the routine!
All the best,
Greensleeves
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And a cold snowy good evening to you two.
Thought we'd got away with it this afternoon ; barely a dusting of the white stuff. It was sneaky and waited until dark - didn't think we'd notice.
Let the dog out just now, to perform his pre-bed ablutions, and couldn't get him back in till he'd left a pawmark in every square foot of virgin snow.
Seriously, we've had a good inch and will probably wake up to more.
Anyway, I bit the bullet and sent for the EASTWELL/SMITH marriage cert.
Having searched everywhere I can to try and eliminate her, this is the only way to make sure. Dispatch date is 6 Feb so I should have it by Saturday.
There is an Eastwell family in the area at that time with a daughter, Annie, of the right age but she seems to have married a Mr. Morgan. Anyway the one who married Mr.Smith is an Annie Elizabeth.
We will see what we will see, as they say.
Speak to you both later.
David.
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I will keep my fingers crossed that the certificate will help further the research into dear Annie.
I had just replied to a friend in Canada about the snow - Just let our little doggy out for his last wee wee of the day in the back garden and since we closed the curtains earlier, more snow has fallen, and yes, little paw prints everywhere. Thank goodness we can do so much on the internet nowadays.
Hoping to catch up with the research tomorrow afternoon :)
Pat ...
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Snowing hard here this morning. Why do dogs love snow so much? Young Titus has been rolling around in it, making what my daughter describes as "snow goblins" as opposed to the snow angels which children make. Then he gets back indoors, thaws out, realises he's wet, and goes off crashing into the soft furnishings!
Fingers crossed for the certificate results, David. I am hunting down the Ast(h)ill connection. Interestingly, it is often in census records as Astell, Astall, Asbill and in one case Astili. I am now scrutinising three Georges, one William and one Frederick. There is another George a bit older than Annie who was Clerk to the Justices in Newark. But any relationship here seems unlikely as she was a housekeeper domestic; unless .... Hmmm, wish we could find out who was living at Appletongate in the 1891 census. Any idea if you can search for properties rather than people?
Greensleeves
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Hi Greensleeves.
The only way I know of searching by address is as follows:
On Anc....y, click on 1891 census. Scroll down past the search box to a list of counties. Click Nottingham. On the next list, click Newark. All the enumeration districts will be displayed. Click on 'view details of enumeration district'.
This gives you a walking route, a bit like a postmans round. When you think you have the right district, click on 'district no. 1/2/3/4/ and so on.
You'll then be at page one on that 'round'. Problem is, some districts have 60-70 pages, while some only have a handful.
It's then a matter of looking for the right address and the right name.
It's an idea to print off a street plan of the area before starting so you can identify the places on the enum.dist. description.
The good news, Greensleeves, is that I actually did all that the other night and it would appear that the the bit that we need is on district 4 or 5, both of which are missing from the records !
But feel free to have a look at 6 & 7. I'd value a second opinion. The house is at the corner of Appletongate and Sydney St, on the east side of Appletongate. I worked this out from the photos and a street plan.
BTW, I love the idea that her chap may be an ASTILI .
Always thought I had some Italian blood in my veins !
Imagine; Annie, a mafia gangster's moll !
Settle down David...................it was just a thought.
Off to play 'roll the dog in the snow' now ! We awoke to 3 to 4" this morning and it keeps coming down really heavy from time to time. I understand we're in for it again tonight.
That's a thought......shouldn't you be at work? Not being nosey, just wondered.
Speak to you later.
David.
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Hello yew tew t'gether,
I did have a look through Enumeration District 6 this morning before I drove down to Dad's. It did say Appleton Gate on the details page, but only a very small part of it, and no help at all.
I wondered about missing 4 and 5 - might have known they held the key to Appletongate!
I keep putting the dog's coat on him when he goes out, as otherwise he gets 'lost' in the snow! He is coming up to 12 years old, a docile very white Jack Russell that we rehomed 8 years ago.
Hardly any traffic on the roads between here and next village to see Dad this morning.
Must do some housework for a while now ::)
Tanti Auguri cari Davide (e anche a Greensleeves) ;D
Pat ...
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Hi Pat.
There's a bit more of Appletongate on district 7 but no junction with Sydney St.
The only bit that may be what we're looking for is the part that mentions "the new houses". But this only covers a few properties and in the photos, there are quite a lot of them.
It's coming down thick and fast here. The forecasters reckon we won't get the worst of it until tonight.
It's a long time since I've seen this amount of snow around here.
Our lad's 14 but still like a pup (typical Labrador).
He absolutely loves the snow but the second he starts to feel the cold, that's it! Game over ! He makes a beeline for the house and heads straight for the fire.
Which, come to think of it, is not such a bad idea !!!!
Regards, David.
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Hi David and Pat
Heavy snow here - have just got back from taking Titus for an early walk, as I don't think I'll be too keen to go out when it starts getting darker. It has been snowing all day and looks very picturesque, so long as you don't have to go anywhere!
I decided to work from home today - I have a link into the Authority's network, which means I can send & receive emails and get to my files. I am supposed to wfh at least once a fortnight (fuel-saving initiatives) but it hardly ever happens. But really, really didn't want to get trapped in town, about 10 miles from where I live, with a lot of hills in between...
Thanks for the info on how to search by address. I will give it a try this evening. Oh, last night I discovered the burial in a pauper's grave in Notts of one George Astill in 1911 and my heart gave a lurch; but he was 68 and hence (one would hope) a bit old for the role of Annie's lover. Phew!
Greensleeves
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Good morning all.
Fed up with the snow now. It's been here too long - outstayed it's welcome - time for some sun and warmth
I hope you two are both surviving the weather ok. I think we've seen the last of the white stuff till tomorrow night at least but further south, there's some more on it's way for next week.
On a cheerier note; the EASTWELL/SMITH marriage cert arrived this morning.
Annie Elizabeth Eastwell is more than a spelling error after all - she is the spinster daughter of one Joseph Eastwell, labourer, of Holbeck, Leeds.
So obviously, the 1909 marriage to Maurice Smith is absolutely nothing to do with our Annie.
While I am not unrelieved at this turn of events, it does now leave a gap that we thought may have been plugged. Heyho !
So there is a real likelihood that, as Maurice was the only Smith to marry an Annie Elizabeth in Leeds in the right timeframe, our Annie will have married her Mr.Smith somewhere else. In fact, given Annie's penchant for travel, the deed could have been done absolutely anywhere in the country !
I can feel a headache coming on...................thanks Annie.
Best wishes, David.
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Hi David
Weather here has been pretty vile; still can't get car out so daughter and I trudged through the snow down the hill to the next village today to get provisions (mostly food for the dog and cats, needless to say!).
I have been amusing myself with trying to eliminate G Astills from our list of potential candidates ie if they appear in the 1901 census then they are of no interest to us. Currently my two favourites are George Astill b. 1863 St Mary, Nottingham, and George Astill b. 1860 Plumtree. There is a marriage in 1881 of a George Astill in Nottingham but without certificate obviously I don't know who it is.
I have found all sorts of interesting things during my meanderings: for example, I stumbled upon the entire complement of the Leeds Cavalry Barracks in the 1901 census, which is absolutely fascinating (no Astills, but interesting nonetheless). Most of the officers appear to have been born in East India, as did the lady wife of the CO. And there are rather graphic job titles such as 'Rough Rider' which makes on wonder what on earth was required of the poor fellow.
A rather sad appearance was of one Gertrude Emma Astill, born 1884 in Nottingham, who in the 1901 census, at age 17, is an 'inmate' of Millers Orphan House, Bristol. How on earth did she get down there? I feel so sad, and wonder which part of the family she came from. Can't find her in any records further back, though. Am wondering whose child she was and what awful events led her to this.
Nice to hear from you again, David. Let's hope weather improves soon so I can do some shopping and get back to work (note order of priorities!).
Greensleeves
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I have been watching news reports and realise both of you have had much worse snow than here in Suffolk, where we avoided the really heavy snowfalls.
Apart from shady areas, it has pretty much all melted away in the sunshine earlier today.
At the moment I am 'snowed under' at home - with Annual Reports arriving from the Local History Recorders all over the county. I have not been into the office for over a week and I had a telephone call to let me know of a meeting next Friday morning and to advise me that my Intray is overflowing with Reports for 2008. I am reading every one and replying individually, so takes up a lot of time.
Once these are out of the way I can get back to the family history research, even if dear Annie is not one of my own, I have become quite fond of her ;D
Best wishes to each and I hope the sun will soon come your way too - although the worry then will be where will all the water go - Lavenham was flooded on Friday with the melted snow and ice coming off the fields and whooshing along the High Street!
Pat ...
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ANNIE RIDES AGAIN !!!!...............AND THIS TIME, WE'VE FOUND HER!
And as usual with Annie, there's a sting in the tail............
Well, to pick up the story from last year; having been to her birthplace in Essex, her place of employment in Ipswich her son Frank's grave in Earsham, and eventually found her in Leeds on the 01 and 11 census, the trail went well and truly cold. Freezing, in fact! On the 11 she was running her own boarding house with her daughter Constance (b.1894), and had change her name to Smith. She also listed herself as a widow.
Over the last year, I've periodically looked for her under Smith and Auston in FreeBMD, FamailySearch, Ancestry and Leeds Library. Not a sniff!
Then, last week I went through the routine again and, low and behold, there, in Ancestry, is a death for Ann E Auston, Leeds, 1954. I daren't hope that it could be her but, of course, had to send for the cert.
The thoughts that have gone through my head in the last week............and the questions.
1954 : My grandmother Constance (her eldest child), had wed, had a daughter (my mother) and been made a widow. My mother had wed and had a child (me) and nobody EVER mentioned Annies name????
Anyway, the certificate dropped onto the mat this morning. It WAS her :
When and where died: 2 July 1954, St. James's Hospital UD.
Name and Surname : ANNIE SMITH otherwise ANN ELIZABETH AUSTON
Sex : Female
Age : 83 years
Occupation : of 134 Chapeltown Rd. UD. Spinster (Home Duties).
Daughter of Edward Alexander AUSTON, farmer (deceased)
Cause of death : Myocardial Infarction
Coronary Thrombosis
Certified........
Signature, description
and residence of
informant : E.A.Auston. son 36 Cardoness St., Dumfries, Scotland. ------WHAT???? WHO???
When registered : 5 July 1954
ANNIE STRIKES AGAIN !!!!!! A third child out of wedlock
Honest, hand on heart, the biggest smile spread across my face. Not at the thought of yet another child being brought up by strangers - and, yes, the 1901 lists Edward aged 2 months living with four other 'boarders' on a farm in Cookridge, Leeds - but just because Annie hadn't let me down. She'd more than paid me back for all the time spent chasing shadows, hoping the next time it would be her. And I was smiling because I was happy!
Now there are just the loose ends to tie up ; where is she buried, what happened to Edward, did he have a family? And who will I look for then??????????
David (still smiling).
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David, I was just putting this PC to bed when the little bleep signalled an email - and a connection to this thread, had to read the link twice :o
How absolutely amazing, she has certainly taken you on a merry dance all over the place, what a gal ::)
I can imagine the smile on reading that certificate - but now, a new journey to discover Edward Auston.
Congratulations I am so pleased for you and can really appreciate how you feel.
Night Night
Pat ...
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Wow David, what wonderful news! Am away from home at the moment so have just had a quick read of your post. Will look forward to digesting it at leisure when I return home. Good old Annie! What a girl!
Best regards
Greensleeves
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Good morning Pat, Good morning Greensleeves.
Many thanks for your replies. Yes, somehow we all knew Annie wouldn't disappoint didn't we.
I've posted on the Dumfriesshire site for any info on Edward Alexander Auston as, it would appear, he ran a Chiropody business in the town from the 1940's to at least 1968 ( Ancestry Phone Directories).
I really hope he had a family - I've recently found a 3rd cousin in British Columbia, and another in Esholt nr. Halifax, both from the Devon connection in my tree. I'm now in regular contact with them both.
This genealogy thing is fantastic isn't it!
I do hope you are both keeping well and will keep you informed should Annie pull another fast one.
Best wishes, David.
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Hello again,
Footmans (or to be correct Footman, Pretty and Co Limited) were general drapers, complete house furnishers, furniture removers, china and glass dealers, and restauranteurs.
They were at Waterloo House
In my Kelly's of 1937 it shows their address as being
6, 8 and 10A Westgate Street
I had thought they were in Carr Street - doh!
Westgate Street, Tavern Street and Carr Street blend into one long shopping street, most of which is pedestrianised.
Good thing Greensleeves :D
reminded me and I looked them up in the directory.
I will now go and sit on the naughty step!
Pat ...
I am not sure if this is of any interest to someone, but I was recently searching through old Frith Collection photographs from my old town of Braintree and came accross one photo from 1907 that had a sign up advertisitng their company. I thought out of interest I will Google the name to see if the company has any history availible which took me here to rootschat. The sign clearly states "Footman & Co. General Drapers" with the address underneith of "Waterloo House Bank Street" I think this is just a coinciedance becasue there was (and still is) a Bank Street in Braintree, and back in 1907 wouldnt it of been much unheard of for businesses to travel to and from far towns? Anyway, here is the link to the photo in particular:
http://www.francisfrith.com/braintree/photos/from-station-road-1907_57567x/
Reference is also 57567x if the link doesnt work.
Good luck!
Greg
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Hi Greg.
Thanks for posting the link, it's very interesting. All my Auston relatives had left the area before 1907 with my gtgrandmother, Annie, living in leeds by 1901 and her father, Edward, had sold the farm in Gt.Bentley and retired to Stowmarket.
But thanks for taking the time to make contact.
Regards, David
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I do know that Salmon & Gluckstein had a tobacco shop in Westgate St the 1890's. There is well known picture taken at this time showing this area viewed from the town hall steps!
Salmon & Gluckstein created the Lyons catering business in the 1890’s.
The lovely Nigella Lawson is linked to the Salmon family!
Additional information: Tavern Street etc
Frederick Corder & Son (situated in Tavern St & Butter Market) like Footman Pretty & Co were owned by Debenham Freebody & Co.
Footman Pretty (also had a branch in Woodbridge) and at one time owned the William Pretty underwear/corsets/hosiery factory in Tower Ramparts (later run down by Courtaulds).
Corder's had a staff hostel situated in Norwich Road, Ipswich
In the late 1950’s & early 1960’s Corder’s created a show called “Gardiners” which, I think was for the young & trendy younger women, this was at the corner of Tavern St & Dial Lane! They also opened a restaurant! The original Gardiners on the site were a mantle makers!
At this time, opposite to Corders was THE “gown” shop called Frank J Mason, a shop of some distinction, catering for the more mature lady!
Frederick Fish & Son were linen & woollen drapers on the corner of Tavern St & St Lawrence St at number 46 & 48, next door to” Croydon the Jewellers” shop. When Frederick Fish & Son closed down the shop site was taken over by “Boots the Chemists”.In the mid 1960’s Boots moved along the road to the old Picture House cinema site! Between Corders & Boots was Thompson’s , where you could smell the aroma of roast coffee wafting down the street!
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I do know that Salmon & Gluckstein had a tobacco shop in Westgate St the 1890's. There is well known picture taken at this time showing this area viewed from the town hall steps!
Salmon & Gluckstein created the Lyons catering business in the 1890’s.
The lovely Nigella Lawson is linked to the Salmon family!
Additional information: Tavern Street etc
Frederick Corder & Son (situated in Tavern St & Butter Market) like Footman Pretty & Co were owned by Debenham Freebody & Co.
Footman Pretty (also had a branch in Woodbridge) and at one time owned the William Pretty underwear/corsets/hosiery factory in Tower Ramparts (later run down by Courtaulds).
Corder's had a staff hostel situated in Norwich Road, Ipswich
In the late 1950’s & early 1960’s Corder’s created a show called “Gardiners” which, I think was for the young & trendy younger women, this was at the corner of Tavern St & Dial Lane! They also opened a restaurant! The original Gardiners on the site were a mantle makers!
At this time, opposite to Corders was THE “gown” shop called Frank J Mason, a shop of some distinction, catering for the more mature lady!
Frederick Fish & Son were linen & woollen drapers on the corner of Tavern St & St Lawrence St at number 46 & 48, next door to” Croydon the Jewellers” shop. When Frederick Fish & Son closed down the shop site was taken over by “Boots the Chemists”.In the mid 1960’s Boots moved along the road to the old Picture House cinema site!
Between Corders & Boots was Thompson’s , where you could smell the aroma of roast coffee wafting down the street!
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Many thanks, Dulverton.
You've given me some fascinating background to Annie's early work surroundings. I visited Ipswich some time ago and found it difficult to envisage how it would have been at the turn of the twentieth century. But with a few old photos and information like yours I've started to build a mental picture.
Thanks again.
David.
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Footman, Pretty and Company department store was indeed owned by William Pretty of the corset factory, which also employed women all over the county as home-workers or in smaller factory units. Many of the smaller units opened up as the railway developed, Stowmarket, Haverhill etc.
The shop was sold to Debenham's in the 20th century.
If anyone is in Suffolk, do check with local history societies to see if Roger Kennell (Local History Recorder for Hadleigh) is giving his excellent talk on William Pretty, who was a well known businessman in the town.
It was indeed he who put up GBP1,000 of the 1,300 purchase price for the land to build the Museum Street, Methodist Church, he laid the foundation stone there in 1860.
Corder's was also a family business opened by John Shewell Corder whose story can be found at
http://www.historicalsuffolk.com/suffolk-people.php
Pat ...
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Hi, my gtuncle Edward Alexander AUSTON was born in 1901 in Leeds but adopted in childhood. I have him (through brilliant Rootschatters) in later life, married and working as a chiropodist in Dumfries.
However there is a massive gap in my knowledge of him from his entry in the Leeds 1901 census, where he is listed as a boarder at what turned out to be a baby farm, and his 1940 marriage in Gloucester and his 1947 appearance in Dumfries. From 1947 he plies his trade in Dumfries until his death in 1973. I've searched for him in England But there's nothing after 1901. He did keep his Birth surname so it's possible he was fostered rather than adopted. But if someone has come across the name and a whereabouts in 1911ish, I'd be grateful to hear.
Many thanks,
David
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Have you checked the 1939 register - there appears to be only one entry for his profile and it's in Islington London
1938 and 1939 electoral registers show an Edward & Inez Auston at 18 Angell Rd Brixton
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This is the thread where you discussed about him 6-7 years ago :)
Merged.
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I will ask the moderator to merge this current thread otherwise readers may waste time going over old ground
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1911 Census Familysearch has a 10 year old Edward AUSTIN born Leeds Yorkshire , inmate at a school , Shadwell Leeds, Yorkshire (West Riding), England.
ev
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Hi ev.
This could well be him. The mis-spelling of the surname is quite a common occurance.
I'm now going to research the school and see if I can find what happened next !
Many thanks.
David
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Hi CaroleW.
I posted the query where I did, because I know he spent the most of his life in Dumfries and I wanted to draw the attention of users of the Scottish boards.
Regards,
David