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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Raylen on Friday 09 January 09 10:53 GMT (UK)
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I'm totally confused and need some help please. :D
Alexander Chrystie born c1839 England? died age 77 Box Hill Victoria
He married Alethea Blanche TUCK 1903 in Melbourne they had a daughter
Margaret Evelyn at Box Hill in 1905.
Pretty straight forward so far.
When I read Alexanders will (written in 1912) he mentions his daughter Margaret
but also 2 other daughters - Katherine Selina Hall and Mary Alice Crosthwaite - both presumably married.
My Alexanders parents were William and Catherine Selina Wade, so I'm pretty sure I have the right family.
Kath Selina Chrystie ( born Melb W)m Hy Douglas HALL 1906 Victoria and died 1924 Heathcote but
I can't find births for either daughter or a marriage for Mary Alice. She is on 1903 Victorian electoral roll with
her sister and father.
Can anyone help please to find the births of both sisters and the
marriage and death of Mary Alice and, if possible, the marriage of their parents.
Sorry this is a bit long but I've tried to include all I know to save wasting
your time.
Thanks for any help
Raylen
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The more information the better
now one query he was 64 years when he remarried and 65 when he fathered Margaret Evelyn?
Found this death in NSW
10947/1955 CROSTHWAITE MARY ALICE father CHRYSTIE mother D'ARCY at NORTH SYDNEY
By CatherineSelina Hall's death she was 48 years old so gives a birth year of 1878
Unfortunately my pioneer disc is broken so cannot check Victoria for you.
Going on the parents information given for Mary Alice
this appears to be a son
CHRYSTIE Alex Chas died aged 30 in 1902 at Melbourne E H reg no 2623
father Chrystie ALexr mother Evelyn Darcy
Jenn
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I found this marriage
CHRYSTIE Alexander to TAPLEY Ellen DArcy
1878 Registration Number 2734
It states on the index that he was born in Jamaica and she was born Devon.
Terra
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following on
Evelyn Chrystie died aged 62 in1901 at Box Hill reg no 12704
father Chrystie Darcy mother unknown
thats a bit odd but maybe mistranscribed etc
Jenn
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Jenn
You are a champion! :)
I don't know why I missed that in NSW
now one query he was 64 years when he remarried and 65 when he fathered Margaret Evelyn?
Jenn
I noticed that - his wife was only 30 :o
Raylen
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Hi Raylen
I found a marriage in the Pioneers Index Vic
Alexander Chrystie and
Ellen DArcy Tapley
1878
Reg no - 2734
Birthplace - Jamaica
edit - Sorry double up
Troods
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No worries Raylen, sometimes it just takes a fresh look at things, you will find a marriage for Alexander Charles Chrystie in 1897 on the indexs says he was born in Collingwood
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I found this marriage
CHRYSTIE Alexander to TAPLEY Ellen DArcy
1878 Registration Number 2734
It states on the index that he was born in Jamaica and she was born Devon.
Terra
Thanks Terra.......and troods
Now that's interesting. I think I found Alexanders family (not him) on 1871 census and a sister
Catherine was born in Jamaica.
Raylen
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and Alexander Charles Chrystie had children, but you may have allready had this ;)
Jenn
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Hi Raylen,
I live close to Boxhill cemetery and Collingwood if you need any help on look ups give me a shout.
If you have any addresses try looking at the Street view of Google earth.
regards,Billy.
ps, I have just noticed your in Melbourne also so you probably checked out google earth already and close to Boxhill and Collingwood,Billy.
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Yes Jenn,
I do have those thanks. Marriage says Alexander Charles was
born in Collingwood. Can't see any birth on Vic records for him
and
Still can't see any births for Alexanders older daughters :-\
Raylen
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Raylen did you look prior to the marriage in just her name perhaps?
and you would have tried variations of spellings I would think
Jenn
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Gee Billy, :)
That's very kind of you.
I need to ring Box Hill Cemetery and confirm details of
where Alexander is buried and if there is a headstone
I may take you up on your offer. ;)
Raylen
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Raylen
Could this be your Alexander Chrystie arriving in 1863 aged 25 yrs.
http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search_results.asp
Sorry to deviate from your original request.
Troods
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Raylen
No problem,
I was there last week taking photos,
I pass by the cemetery every second day and after 5 years only found out the behind the big trees is Boxhill cemetery!
regards Billy.
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Jenn,
I have tried all I can think of >:(
There seems to be a brother of Alexander Charles
Walter William Chrystie d 1956 Melb 77
Father - Alexander Mother - Evelyn Darcy
No birth for him c1879 either
Raylen
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Troods
Feel free to deviate ;D ;D
What was the ship name please.
I got nothing when I searched
Raylen
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Sorry should have mentioned that
"Anglesey" Apr 1863
Troods
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Thanks Troods
Found it :)
Looks likely
Raylen
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Kath Selina Chrystie ( born Melb W)m Hy Douglas HALL 1906 Victoria and died 1924 Heathcote
and
By Catherine Selina Hall's death she was 48 years old so gives a birth year of 1878
I think that should be born c1876 and that is two years before the marriage of Alexander and Ellen Darcy TAPLEY in 1878.
Cando
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Jenn,
I have tried all I can think of >:(
There seems to be a brother of Alexander Charles
Walter William Chrystie d 1956 Melb 77
Father - Alexander Mother - Evelyn Darcy
No birth for him c1879 either
Raylen
Following on from above.....
Qld Marriage
1909/B7951
GALLAGHER Mary Ann
CHRYSTIE Walter William
Qld Births
1910/B22841
CHRYSTIE Mary Helen
Father Walter William
Mother Mary Ann Gallagher
Vic births
CHRYSTIE Kathleen
Father Walt William Mother Helen Maude HILSTON
At Box Hill 1918 Reg#16971
CHRYSTIE Alethea Margaret
Father Walter William Mother Hellen Maude HILSDEN
At Hawthorn 1919 Reg#19975
Vic death but can't find the birth
CHRYSTIE James Edward
Father Chrystie Waltet Mother Hellen Maude SMITH
1 year At Mallacoota 1918 Re#2625
Walter William is on the electoral roll in Vic with a Helen Maude.
Deaths
CHRYSTIE Evelyn Rose
Father Chrystie Walter Mother Ellen UNKNOWN
At Carlton 1 year 1922 Reg#8408
CHRYSTIE Helen Maude
Father Unknown Mother UNKNOWN
At Melbourne 81 1965 Reg#1965
Australian Electoral Rolls 1936
Queensland
CHRISTIE Mary Ann 24 Constance Street, Fortitude Valley HD
CHRISTIE Mary Helen 24 Constance Street, Fortitude Valley HD
Cando
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I found this marriage
CHRYSTIE Alexander to TAPLEY Ellen DArcy
1878 Registration Number 2734
It states on the index that he was born in Jamaica and she was born Devon.
Terra
Thanks Terra.......and troods
Now that's interesting. I think I found Alexanders family (not him) on 1871 census and a sister
Catherine was born in Jamaica.
Raylen
I wonder if Ellen was correct with her place of birth on the marriage reg...
TAPLEY Ellen Darcy
Father John Cowell Mother Ellen DARCY
At Prahran 1860 Reg# 18526
Death Place:
Cheers
Cando
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By her death she was born 1839c
"Evelyn Chrystie died aged 62 in1901 at Box Hill reg no 12704
father Chrystie Darcy mother unknown"
assuming it is the correct death which it does seem to be given the vicinty and her age etc
Jenn
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I found this marriage
CHRYSTIE Alexander to TAPLEY Ellen DArcy
1878 Registration Number 2734
It states on the index that he was born in Jamaica and she was born Devon.
Terra
Thanks Terra.......and troods
Now that's interesting. I think I found Alexanders family (not him) on 1871 census and a sister
Catherine was born in Jamaica.
Raylen
I wonder if Ellen was correct with her place of birth on the marriage reg...
TAPLEY Ellen Darcy
Father John Cowell Mother Ellen DARCY
At Prahran 1860 Reg# 18526
Death Place:
Cheers
Cando
By her death she was born 1839c
"Evelyn Chrystie died aged 62 in1901 at Box Hill reg no 12704
father Chrystie Darcy mother unknown"
assuming it is the correct death which it does seem to be given the vicinty and her age etc
Jenn
Jenn do you think that Ellen Darcy TAPLEY and the death for Evelyn CHRYSTIE are for the same person?
Had a quick search on free bdm for Ellen TAPLEY b. between 1838 and 1860...none in Devon.
Births 1838
TAPLEY Ellen Sparkes London 2/139
Births Dec 1843
TAPLEY Ellen Bridge 5/40
Births Jun 1851
TAPLEY Ellen Dudley 18/372
I guess some certs are needed.
Cheers
Cando
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in my own opinion I think the death could be correct but don't know about the marriage
Walter William Chrytie's death also has mothe as Evelyn Darcy
Jenn
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Think I may have solved the Ellen/Evelyn puzzle.
I will list the following regs and it should be self explanatory
Births
TAPLEY Ellen Darcy
Father John Cowell Mother Ellen DARCY
At Prahran 1860 Reg#18526
TAPLEY Herbert John Cowell
Father John Cowell Mother Ellen DARCY
At Hotham 1863 Reg#9273
TAPLEY William Herbert
Father John Cowell Mother Ellen DARCY
At Williamstown 1865 Reg#12334
Deaths
TAPLEY Ellen Darcy
Father John Cowl Mother Eveline DARCY
10 years 1870 Born Prahran Reg#8999
TAPLEY Herbert John Cowl
Father John Cowl Mother Eveline DARCY
7 years Born Prahran 1870 Reg 9000
There is this death but it is the year following Ellen Darcy/Eveline marriage to Alexander CHRYSTIE :-\ :-\
Death
TAPLEY John
Father John Taylor Mother Harriet WOOLCOCK
59 years Born Kent 1879 Reg#1228
However there are two John TAPLEY's on the indexes, and one has Cowell as a 2nd given name. This could be the John TAPLEY's [whose death is above], marriage reg
TAPLEY John
BANKS Caroline
1852 Reg#3740
Denomination Methodist/Wesleyan Parish Melbourne Fiche 897
Added later
Found this marriage on free bdm
Marriages Jun 1856
TAPLEY John Cowell Newton Abbot 5b/287
D'ARCY Ellen Newton Abbott 5b/287
Cheers
Cando
Edit to add data
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On the ANL's beta digital newspapers site http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home there are some notices in The Argus (Melbourne paper)
Death notice, published 12 Jan 1923 for what looks like Alethea's brother:
TUCK - On 11 January 1923, at the residence of his sister (Mrs Chrystie) Cottage St Blackburn, Charles Tuck.......etc. It goes on to say Charles is aged 67 and his parents "Jane and the late Jack" are "of Moorabin"
Thanks notice published 23 December 1916
Mrs Chrystie and daughter thanking people for attending funeral and cards etc. Address given I think is "Balchrystie, Blackburn"
I assume this is for Alexander's death, but definitely only says 'daughter' no name given, but not 'daughters'
13 Sep 1945 List of prisoners of War from Siam has
CHRYSTIE R V., Sig, Coburg, Sigs
May be of some use to you. Judith
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Judith..good find...the notice would be from his 2nd wife and their dau...the other two daughters were married by 1912, date of his will....digitised on PROV.
Mmmmmm.......Where does this fit in :-\
Death
TAPLEY John Cowell
Father Unknown Mother Unknown UNKNOWN
63 years At Bendigo 1896 Reg#4295
http://www.bencemtrust.com.au/search.asp
Please note: Not all records held by the Trust are recorded on this database. Please contact this office if your search does not provide a result.
Will see if I can find a death for a Ellen Darcy/Eveline TAPLEY :-\ :-\ other than the one for Evelyn CHRYSTIE ;)
Later. Very few TAPLEY's in the bdm's in Victoria..and no death for Ellen/Eveline. Why she change her name to Eveline? This is going to be interesting if Raylen buys some certs :)
Cheers
Cando
Edit to add
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Hello there
Thanks notice published 23 December 1916
Mrs Chrystie and daughter thanking people for attending funeral and cards etc. Address given I think is "Balchrystie, Blackburn"
I assume this is for Alexander's death, but definitely only says 'daughter' no name given, but not 'daughters'
like Judith I had checked the newspapers and saw this but will admit to thinking that perhaps just one daughter lived at home, because we know there was also a son alive at the time. (alexander did die in 1916 at Box Hill)
interesting though.
Not one birth of the four known children to be found! very odd indeed
Jenn
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Wonder if they lived in another state for a while?
Would love to see some certs...this is getting to be interesting ;)
Now the other possibility is ......if Ellen was not a widow when she married Alexander, she may have 'avoided' registering the births. Just random thoughts.....
Cheers
Cando
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just to verify who the Mrs Chrystie was
here is here death
CHRYSTIE Alethea Blanche died in 1948 aged 72 at BlackBurn reg no 190
Father Tuck Chas
Mother Jane CHANDER
Have not been able to locate the marriage either for Mary Alice Chrystie to a CROSTHWAITE
She is on the Electoral Rolls in NSW for 1930 and 1936 but no husband with her.
will need to look them up again and detail the roll further sorry should have done that allready
Jenn
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Alexander's sister? From IGI
CHRYSTIE Margaret
Birth 11 Sep 1831 Kingston,Surry, , Jamaica, Caribbean
Father William CHRYSTIE
Mother Catharine Selina CHRYSTIE
Cando
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Mary Alice Crosthwaite in 1930
District GwyDir sub District Coolah
at Pila Butta Coolah listed as Grazier ? also listed as Male so another mistranlation!
Mary Alice Corsthwaite in 1936 cleary says Crosthwaite on the record though
Distric Gwydir sub district Cobbora
at digilah Dunedoo home duties.
Jenn
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http://cemindex.arkangles.com/inscription.php?id=2566668
Think I have found Mary Alice Husband
a search of the cemeteries found this grave for Robert Jarratt Crosthwaite
husband of M A Crosthwaite died 1923
now to find the marriage
Jenn
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:o Good grief!! Haven't you all been busy :)
I'll need time to read through and digest all this information
I have been able to get a transcription of the burials at Box Hill cemetery
Church of England Grave 205
CHRYSTIE
Alethea Blanche 1948 Age 72
Alexander Charles 1902 Age 30
Eveline 1901 Age 62
Alexander 1916 Age 77
James Edward 1918 Age 1
Raylen
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From WA Indexes
Marriages....I have listed them all as CHRYSTIE is an unusual surname
CHRYSTIE Alice M L
EDWARDS William T
District Perth Reg#239 1907
CHRYSTIE Selina E
PILLEY Cyril F
District Perth Reg#1053 1920
CHRYSTIE William H
BURNARD May
District Perth Reg#1144 1921
and death
CHRYSTIE Lillian Mary 7 months
Father Alexander Charles Mother HYNAN Alice Maud Louisa
Born Auburn, Vic Reg#2446 1902
and there is one birth....may not be your lot
JENNESS Mona Maria Leone
Fathr James Mother Caroline CHRYSTIE Kalgoorlie Reg#815 1898
Cheers
Cando
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Sorry...I should have said thanks to
Jenn, cando and Judith for adding to this complicated story ;D
I found shipping arrival in Port Adelaide SA 26/8/1856
John Cowell Tapley 20 Carpenter Newton Abbot, Devon
Ellen (D'arcy) 17
:-\ probably just adds to the confusion
Raylen
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Raylen, where did you find the shipping arrival for the Tapley's
Jenn
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Sorry.........should have posted source information
( someone will get cross with me ;D )
www.theshipslist.com/ships/australia/aliquis1856.htm
Raylen
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Point taken Raylen...from this grumpy old lady...who really only wants to help ;) ;) ::) ::)
Sorry Raylen I actually found that and another John in 1840 [perhaps the other John TAPLEY death in 1879] and with all the searching and going off at tangents forgot to post it
http://www.familyhistorysa.info/shipping/passengerlists.html
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/australia/aliquis1856.htm
The only Robert Jarratt I can find...1st marriage :-\ :-\
From free bdm
Marriages Sep 1867
CROSTHWAITE Robert Jarratt Howden 9d/143
to either
SCRUTON Hannah Howden 9d/43
SIMPSON Eleanor Frances Howden 9d/143
Cheers
Cando
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Cando
that could be the marriage for a Robert Jarratt Crosthwaite who seems to be a Bishop etc when you google him.
Raylen,
thanks for that link, and you know who will be a happy camper as well ;)
Jenn
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Perhaps his father...an unsual name.
OK OK ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cando
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Well did Ellen Darcy/Eveline TAPLEY nee D'ARCY commit bigamy?
Cando
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Point taken Raylen...from this grumpy old lady...who really only wants to help ;) ;) ::) ::)
Cheers
Cando
You - a grumpy old lady? ....................NEVER!! ;)
Raylen
and you always help :)
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http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nswsdps/rsvp/smhrsvp2.htm
CROSTHWAITE: Robert Jarratt (d 1923) m Mary Alice CHRISTIE/CHRYSTIE, Durban, South Africa 1910. Only child Florence B. (b 1913 Hunter Valley) m Edward MARTIN 1933. Seeking descendants and information for a family history. Phone Diana Thomson, deleted for privacy reasons (Published 16MAY2000)
No wonder we couldn't find any info here in Aus
You - a grumpy old lady? ....................NEVER!! ;)
Often....well old anyway ;D ;D ;D
Cando
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cando
I'm not sure if they were bigamists but
they sure have created one heck of a mess.
Not sure where I can go now.
1. No births registrations found - so no certificates to check
2. Death certificates will possibly give ages of children, but, see point 1 :D
Any advice from you experts what path I should take now?
Raylen
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Point taken Raylen...from this grumpy old lady...who really only wants to help ;) ;) ::) ::)
Cheers
Cando
You - a grumpy old lady? ....................NEVER!! ;)
Raylen
and you always help :)
Well said Raylen.........very true too it is
now what the devil was she doing in South Africa I ask you mmmm perhaps a nurse in the boer war.
Cando you better remove that phone number or you will get a telling off ;)
Jenn
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http://members.pcug.org.au/~croe/ozb/ozb_idx2.htm
Australian in the Boer War
CROSTHWAITE Robert Jarratt
Cando
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Raylen,
hard to say which way to go, perhaps the death certificate for Eveline Chrystie, that information should have been given by Alexander.
Jenn
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Great find cando :) ( details copied thanks)
And interesting to see the alternate spelling of Christie
I was going to mention that when Jenn found the
burial in Gilgandra Cemetery. There are other burials there
in the name of Christie with christian names that seem relevant
to this family.
I also have plenty of other Christies in my tree, so I'm wondering if the
spelling has been changed.
Raylen
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Some CHRYSTIE on
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/recordsearch.aspx
A couple of sons for Katherine Selena HALL.
Cheers
Cando
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I have been able to get a transcription of the burials at Box Hill cemetery
Church of England Grave 205
CHRYSTIE
Alethea Blanche 1948 Age 72
Alexander Charles 1902 Age 30
Eveline 1901 Age 32
Alexander 1916 Age 77
James Edward 1918 Age 1
Raylen I assume the age should be 62? Sorry about being nit picky :-[
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks cando
:-[ it should be 62
I've amended the original post
Raylen
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Easily done with the speed this thread has progressed...with all the tangents ;) I was actually thinking there must have been another birth ;)
Cheers
Cando
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Speaking of tangents ;D
Looks like I might have found another unregistered son of Alexander Chrystie :-\
George Wade Chrystie (born Collingwood) m Annie Larkin 1899
Just starting to look into this one further but it took my eye with the middle
name of Wade - which is Alexander's mothers maiden name and then when I couldn't
see any birth registration.......hmmmmmmmm
Perhaps that ones for another day
Raylen
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Ahha Raylen wondered if he was one of your mob :)
but I cannot see a death for him or his wife nor are they on the electoral rolls available from A......y
See his childrens deaths in Victoria though.
Jenn
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What a fascinating thread peeps. I am thoroughly interested into as to why so many births were unregistered etc . Mmmmm not sure what avenue you can follow next Raylen.
Troods
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I did check the Victoria Divorce records but no divorce there.
Jenn
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I don't know if fascinating is the word I'd use at the moment Troods.
More like frustrating :D
Looks like I might have found another unregistered son of Alexander Chrystie
George Wade Chrystie (born Collingwood) m Annie Larkin 1899
Raylen
but I cannot see a death for him or his wife nor are they on the electoral rolls available from A......y
See his childrens deaths in Victoria though.
Jenn
Jenn,
I think this might be the wife.....but where is George :-\
1909 Bethanga - Annie living alone
1914 Diamond Creek -Annie living alone
1919 28 Provost St N.Melb - Annie living alone
1924 26 Provost St N.Melb - Annie and her son Alex Peter
1931 34 Vine St Moonee Ponds - Annie, her son Alex Peter (recorded as Oster) and his wife Mary Theresa(nee Murphy)
1936 34 Vine St Moonee Ponds - Annie, her son Alex and wife Mary Theresa, and another of Annies sons Richard John
Death - Vic
CHRISTIE Annie - 1946 74 years Moonee Ponds
Father - Patk Larkin Mother - Mary Comerford
Raylen
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Back to the TAPLEY family. Three names on the Inquest Index
TAPLEY Helen Darcy
Place Echuca 1870 Reference 268
Cause Accident Drowned
TAPLEY Herbert John E
Place Echuca 1870 Reference 268
Year 1870
Cause Accident Drowned
TAPLEY John C
1896 Reference 605 No further details on index
Cando
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And another confusion!!
Have just read the service record of Alexander William Hyman CHRYSTIE, born 1897 Richmond Vic, enlisting in Perth in 1915. He gives his NOK as "mother, (father dead) Maude Edwards" at a Perth address. In the spaces for parent consent are the signature of 'Maude Edwards' and "stepfather W T Edwards" in the place for father to sign.
Cando found the following marriage in a previous post: From WA Indexes
CHRYSTIE Alice M L
EDWARDS William T
District Perth Reg#239 1907
So - it looks as though this Alexander W H CHRYSTIE was Alice's son registered under her CHYRSTIE surname and she later married William T Edwards. However who is the person listed as Alexander WH CHRYSTIE's mother as "Maude Edwards" ??
Is this another name change for this lot? Or is it someone else entirely and Alice had died by then??
And boy did your mob get around!! Devon, Jamaica and lots of Oz states!!
The sons for Selina HALL give birth places as Heathcote June 1914, and Heathcote South Nov 1906 so that seems to pin Selina down to living in Heathcote at least from her marriage to her death!
Just another snippet which may have nothing to do with anything except co-incidence - in the National Library beta newspaper site searching using "CHRYSTIE" there is a news item in the Hobart Courier 8 Dec 1845, headed "Foreign Intelligence" which mentions an "Inspector CHRYSTIE" involved in a 'serious disturbance' in Jamaica. One wonders why it would be of interest to people in Hobart? Anyhow perhaps it is your original Alexander's father.....
Cheers, Judith
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So - it looks as though this Alexander W H CHRYSTIE was Alice's son registered under her CHYRSTIE surname and she later married William T Edwards. However who is the person listed as Alexander WH CHRYSTIE's mother as "Maude Edwards" ??
Her name was Alice Maude Louisa nee HYNAM perhaps she was known as Maude
Jenn
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Hello to you all :)
Thanks for those Tapley deaths cando.
Jenn, It looks like that might be the case with Alice/Maude
Judith, I did see that and I will see if there is anything to be found about
Inspector Chrystie in Jamaica. One of Alexanders sisters was born in Jamaica
and it's possible Alexander was too.
Thanks to everyone for their input on this one.
I've still got plenty to do it seems :-\
Raylen
Just as an aside..........can someone please check these 2 sites for me.
Today and yesterday I'm getting the same message
on both - "This account has been suspended"
http://cemindex.arkangles.com
www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nswsdps
.
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Raylen
I couldn't get the Ryerson yesterday and today the same message appears on both the sites you mentioned
For interest and further researching
George Wade CHRYSTIE born Collingwood married Annie LARKINS in 1899 reg no 6476
Children
George Walter 1900 at Bethanga reg no 8813
Alexander Peter 1901 at Bethanga reg no 24723
Died in 1967 aged 66 at Moon reg no 24254
Mary Cecilia 1903 at Medgegonga reg no 20053
died in 1909 aged 5 at Myford reg no 6269
Annie Wfred 1905 at Bethanga reg no 15836
Ellen Fran 1907 at Bethanga reg no 16354
Died 1928 aged 20 at Cheltenam reg no 5145
and a looks like this one
Richard John Chrystie
Died aged 69 in 1979 at Brunswick reg no 354 parents given as George Wade Chrystie and Annie Larkins.
so we can assume perhaps that George Wade Chrystie was alive up untill 1907 and possibiby 1910 and then just dissapears off into the sunset.
Jenn
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Back to the TAPLEY family. Three names on the Inquest Index
TAPLEY Helen Darcy
Place Echuca 1870 Reference 268
Cause Accident Drowned
TAPLEY Herbert John E
Place Echuca 1870 Reference 268
Year 1870
Cause Accident Drowned
TAPLEY John C
1896 Reference 605 No further details on index
Cando
Thanks for those Tapley deaths cando.
The Inquest papers would be available from PROV...may give more insight into the family.
Cheers
Cando
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Sorry cando.......I did mean Inquest details :-[
Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information. Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical. Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted. We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of this issue.
Thanks
Raylen
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Raylen ...if you don't get a reply...what about posting on the Emigrants to United States board...perhaps some census info and death info may come to light.
I only highlighted the Inquest...as at first glance they could be death records....no need to be :-[ ;) :) ;D
Cheers
Cando
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YIKES!! :o :o
What did I post that got deleted?
Don't remember doing anything naughty :-[
Raylen
Added:
After reading the copyright rules
Oh...... I know now.
Sorry!
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Raylen ...if you don't get a reply...what about posting on the Emigrants to United States board...perhaps some census info and death info may come to light.
Cando, I did as you said and had some very interesting replies.
Looks like George Wade Chrystie might be another unregistered son of Alexander.
It says he was born 6 March 1879 in Melbourne, Australia
WWI Draft Registration
Sept 2 1918
Seattle Washington, USA
George W. Chrystie, born Mar 6, 1879, Australia, living at the "Astoria Hotel" Seattle, Washington
Occupation: Engine room Seaman for US Shipping, place of occupation: "board" which I assume means he lives on board the ship. Medium height, medium build, gray eyes, brown hair.
If that is the correct George Wade Chrystie then he sure got around. The Declaration of Intention referred to by Shelly indicates that he emigrated to the US from Chile aboard the SS Santa Rita but his last foreign residence was London, England. The document was filed with the US District Court in Tacoma, Washington on 2 Jun 1917. It also says he arrived in Tacoma on 29 May 1917.[/i]
His birth fits in with the time frame of his siblings 1872 - 1880
Just another interesting piece in the jigsaw puzzle.
Raylen
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well now Raylen that is good news
Does that then follow he served in the latter part of WW1 in the USA military, perhaps he was killed?
Jenn
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Raylen so pleased you followed a suggestion ;) ;) Many people just appear to ignore them :-\ :-\
Just my two bob's worth...I don't think the births were registered because Alexander and Ellen hadn't tied the knot officially because Ellen would have been committing bigamy. Legally they weren't married as Ellen had committed bigamy. I also think that the John C TAPLEY death at Bendigo is her husband. There are very few TAPLEY names on the indexes. I doubt whether any of their death certs will show the 'facts'. All these thoughts may be dismissed if you don't agree ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D
You and I were unlucky yesterday....the copyright mod was on the prowl...all I did was mention Victorian Indexes... ::) ::) Now that could have been the online ones couldn't it ;) ;)
Cheers
Cando
Edit to correct .
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Just my two bob's worth...I don't think the births were registered because Alexander and Ellen hadn't tied the knot officially because Ellen would have been committing bigamy
but Cando now confused didn't they marry?
Jenn
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cando, I like your line of thinking :D
I think the bigamy thought might be close but from the dates
we have it would seem she HAS committed bigamy.
Ellen married Alexander 1878 and John C Tapley didn't die until 1896.
Raylen
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Oh I see what you are trying to say ( I think) that having committed bigamy she didn't want to register the childrens births.
But then maybe the old man did a runner and she had to wait to have him declared dead etc?
A quick recap she had a few kids to Tapley up to 1865 and a couple of deaths for children in 1870.
Then she has at least 5 children to Alex Chrystie. from about 1876 owards, So she was a fertile woman and you would have thought if there was a husband on the scene you would expect more births?
Jenn
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Jen...Catherine or another child was born ?1876...haven't got time to re-read thread. Alexander was b. 1872 according to the info from Box Hill Cem.
Sorry Raylen...as usual the mind races....she didn't register the chn as she had committed bigamy...not legally married .....Why the change to the name to Eveline :-\
Cando
Edit to add info
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I am wondering if a copy of the inquest of the two little TAPLEY children who drowned might throw some light on the matter. I guess the marriage might have suffered after such a tragic loss.
Jenn
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regarding
TAPLEY William Herbert
Father John Cowell Mother Ellen DARCY
At Williamstown 1865 Reg#12334
I cannot see a death mentioned for him.
Jenn
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I am wondering if a copy of the inquest of the two little TAPLEY children who drowned might throw some light on the matter. I guess the marriage might have suffered after such a tragic loss.
Jenn
This has been suggested before reply no 64.
A perhaps a certificate or two for facts as well.
Terra
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I am wondering if a copy of the inquest of the two little TAPLEY children who drowned might throw some light on the matter. I guess the marriage might have suffered after such a tragic loss.
Jenn
This has been suggested before reply no 64.
A perhaps a certificate or two for facts as well.
Terra
Yes Terra I had read that but was more or less thinking out aloud as to whether or not the drownings of the two little ones did indeed affect the marriage.
Jenn
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There is this death but it is the year following Ellen Darcy/Eveline marriage to Alexander CHRYSTIE :-\ :-\
Death
TAPLEY John
Father John Taylor Mother Harriet WOOLCOCK
59 years Born Kent 1879 Reg#1228
However there are two John TAPLEY's on the indexes, and one has Cowell as a 2nd given name. This could be the John TAPLEY's [whose death is above], marriage reg
TAPLEY John
BANKS Caroline
1852 Reg#3740
Denomination Methodist/Wesleyan Parish Melbourne Fiche 897
The 'other' John Tapley
1856 electoral roll John Tapley Collins Street East Supt of Dept Salary Immigration Dept. £600
terra
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Hello again,
Thanks terra for your info. It all helps.
Well.....I bit the bullet and bought some certificates.
I’ve just summarised all the important things and as you will see
there are many errors/discrepancies/or little white lies
Alexander Chrystie Death Certificate
Died 17-12-1916 Cottage Street,Blackburn Age 77 years
Father - William Mother - Catherine Selina Wade
Born-Dunmow,Scotland In Victoria 56 years
Informant - Funeral Director
Marriage 1: Evelyn D’arcy Place: Unknown Age: abt 34years
Children: Kathleen Selina b c1874, Geo Wade b c1878, Mary Alice b c1881,
Walter William b c1885, Charles Alex - dead
Marriage 2: Alethea Blanche Tuck Place: Melbourne Age: 63 years
Child: Margaret Evelyn b c1905
Evelyn Chrystie Death Certificate
Died 26-11-1901 Junction Road, Blackburn Age 62 years
Father & Mother - Unknown Born-Devon,England In Victoria 36 years
Marriage: Alexander Chrystie Place: Deniliquin Age: abt 30years
Informant- A C Chrystie(son)
Children: Alexander Charles b c1871, Catherine Selina b c1873,
Geo Wade b c1875, Mary Alice b c1880, Walter William b c1884
Marriage certificate to follow
Raylen
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Mmmmm Marriage: Alexander Chrystie Place: Deniliquin Age: abt 30years ::) ::) ;) ;)
terra
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Marriage Certificate
31st May 1878 at Register Generals Office, Melbourne
Alexander Chrystie bachelor 39 years born Jamaica,West Indies
Father-William(dec) Mother-Catherine Selina Wade
Ellen D’Arcy Tapley widow in 1869 39 years born Totness,Devon,Eng
Children-2 living 4 dead
Both living: Moorabool St, Geelong
Father-William Reginald D’Arcy(dec) Mother-Margaret Dymond
Witnesses:John Griffin, William Cunningham
No sign of a Tapley death in 1869 for Evelyn to be widowed :-\ and her
son didn't seem to know she had been married before.
Jenn - I agree that it would be very interesting to see the inquest reports
for these Tapley's. Not only the childrens but John C Tapley, who
we have assumed is Evelyns husband.
Are these only available at PROV?
TAPLEY Helen Darcy
Place Echuca 1870 Reference 268
Cause Accident Drowned
TAPLEY Herbert John E
Place Echuca 1870 Reference 268
Year 1870
Cause Accident Drowned
TAPLEY John C
1896 Reference 605 No further details on index
Raylen
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Yes Raylen only available at PROV. Unable to link guide to ordering inquest records as only home page is available.
http://www.prov.vic.gov.au/
What was Alexander's occupation on his marriage cert please?
Wonder what John C TAPLEY's occupation was?
Cando
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I must admit to being addicted to this thread!
Found the marriage on FreeBMD of John Cowell TAPLEY Ellen D'ARCY Jun qr 1856, reg district Newton Abbot so they must have travelled imediately to match the arrival already found.
John Cowell Tapley 20 Carpenter Newton Abbot, Devon
Ellen (D'arcy) 17
In 1851 John Cowell TAPLEY aged 15 (b abt 1836) is with his parents, John and Rebecca TAPLEY in Tormoham, Devon (between Torbay and Torquay). The family appear quite well-to-do with the father's occupation given as 'Proprietor of Houses'. I notice on IGI that there have been TAPLEYs at Tormoham since the mid 1600s .
I could find no trace of an Ellen D'ARCY but there is a D'Arcy family living at Highweek, Devon with a couple of daughters at boarding school and some others at home with parents. I wonder if 'Ellen ' is not her actual forename, (especially as she was only 17)?? I note on FreeBMD and on IGI there is a birth into the D'Arcy family of Mary Elizabeth in 1839. (On IGI there is a death date for her of 1929 but it is only a submitted entry). I wonder if 'Ellen' was a pet name for Elizabeth?? Unfortunately I didn't record the names of all the D'Arcy daughters - using Ancestry at the library and my time ran out.
A query - when FreeBMD puts uses a date of 'June' I realise it's the June quarter but does it start or end in June? I ask becuase of the arrival in Oz of this couple - they must have galloped out of the wedding and onto the ship!
Another aside - on IGI I notice a Kezia Clampit TAPLEY b 1833 Torquay, baptised 1833 in Tormoham (sibling on 1851 census of John Cowell TAPLEY see above) acoording to a submitted IGI entry married an Edward RENDELL in Prahran in 1859, died in Wagin WA 1918.
What a fascinating story! The more you look, the more there is!
Cheers, Judith
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Just a thought:
allow for the possibility that if he died near the end of the year the death may not have been registered until the following year.
another thought:
You could check the divorce lists for Victoria: 1861-1924
http://www.prov.vic.gov.au/publications/documents/05335-P0.asp
Robyn in Wodonga
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Hi Judith
Looks as though you had a busy afternoon :)
The June qtr refers to the registrations April May and June.
The marriage of John Cowell TAPLEY and Ellen was detailed quite early in the thread.[reply#25] Purchase of this cert would identify the parents ie if we are to eliminate assumptions.
Raylen - The occupation of John Cowell TAPLEY as a carpenter may be a crucial factor in indentifying him in the inquest papers or on his death certificate.
Still curious as to Alexander CHRYSTIE's occupation at the time of his marriage.
Robyn - The death of John TAPLEY is possibly the husband of Carolin BANKS and the gentleman detailed on the electoral roll of 1856 as a Supt. of Dept. Immigration Dept. [reply#79] There are only two TAPLEY'S on the indexes for the period we are looking at. The other death found in 1896 is for a John C TAPLEY.
No divorce on the records at PROV to 1884.
Perhaps Raylen could do a summary to save duplicate searching ;D
Cando
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By the marriage certificate Ellen Tapley had 2 living children but as yet no sign of them and then they were not mentioned on her death certificate. Her son the informant and not her husband who was still alive Did he not know about the two children she had with her previous husband.
I noted with interest that she says she was widowed in 1869 a year before the accidental drowning of her two children.
Jenn
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I wonder if 'Ellen' was a pet name for Elizabeth?
Cheers, Judith
Judith -
Got to agree with you. So many twists and turns in this story :o
Ellen has also been named as Evelyn and Eveline.
cando -
Alexanders occupation on marriage certificate - commercial traveler
and on his death certificate - retired civil servant.
I'm pretty sure that John C Tapley who died 1869 was Ellen/Evelyns husband.
The fact he died in Bendigo is interesting ( seems to be no
connection to Bendigo with the family so far) and that there was an inquest.
I've been thinking that maybe he was in jail or in the asylum in Bendigo.
If he died in either of these would there need to be an inquest?
By the marriage certificate Ellen Tapley had 2 living children but as yet no sign of them and then they were not mentioned on her death certificate. Her son the informant and not her husband who was still alive Did he not know about the two children she had with her previous husband.
Jenn
Jenn - he didn't mention the first marriage on the death certificate either :-\
The 2 living children could possibly be
Alexander Chrystie b c1872 and Katherine Selina Chrystie b c1876.
The 4 dead children
Ellen and Herbert John Tapley died 1870 and we can't find William Herbert Tapley b c 1865.
I wonder if Ellen and John Tapley had any children in South Australia?
They arrived there in 1856 and the first birth registered in Victoria is 1860.
I'll get on to a summary and post as soon as I can.
I'm up to my ears in scraps of paper and notes everywhere :o :o
Raylen
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no recorded births in Sa
but this death ( It could have been mentioned before , if so ,my apologies)
Surname: TAPLEY John Cowell died 2/2/1859 aged 10months
Relative: John Cowell TAPLEY (F) Residence Lefevre Peninsula
Death PlaceLefevre PeninsulaDistrict Code Ade
Book 5 Page 367
Jenn
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:o Good grief!! Haven't you all been busy :)
I'll need time to read through and digest all this information
I have been able to get a transcription of the burials at Box Hill cemetery
Church of England Grave 205
CHRYSTIE
Alethea Blanche 1948 Age 72
Alexander Charles 1902 Age 30
Eveline 1901 Age 62
Alexander 1916 Age 77
James Edward 1918 Age 1
Raylen
Hi all.
I have been to the beach with the wife and kids for a few days, you all have been busy.
Raylen,
Now you have the details of the burials as above I will nip over to Boxhill and photograph the gravestone if it is there, at the end of the week if you like,
Billy.
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1851 Census HO107/1872/163/44
3 Carey Parade Tormoham Devonshire
John Tapley 53 Proprietor Houses
Rebecca Tapley 57
Rebecca Cowell Tapley 26 All born Tormoham Devon.
Elizabeth Abbott Tapley 22*
Kezia Clampett Tapley 17*
John Cowell Clampett 15
2 servants
Richard Blaney 3 Physician b. Cornwall Truro
*Married in Victoria Aus.
Will pm marriages and chn to Raylen. Kezia married James Edward Rendell and was living at Rochester in 1903. Elizabeth married Robert Lawson and don't see them on the electoral rolls...and no births in Vic.
There is a contact on ancestry re the D'Arcy records. There is a private tree. However the parents names are William and Elizabeth nee Bradford not Margaret Dymond as detailed on Ellen's marriage to Alexander. Doubt it is the correct family.
There is a bit more but too late for me to type up.
terra
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http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/10421/20041220-0000/www.firstfamilies2001.net.au/namealphfed9.html?letter=t
there is information for Kezia TAPLEY on the First families site.
She arrived into Victoria.
Jenn
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Another thought on John Cowell Tapley,
Is there a possibility that he was convicted of a crime and sent to prison in 1869, the year Ellen claims to have been widowed? He wouldn't have been around and she may have considered herself a widow.
Found one of my rellies there and it explained the 5 year gap between the marraige and the birth of the first of 13 children!!!!
Robyn in Wodonga
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Now you have the details of the burials as above I will nip over to Boxhill and photograph the gravestone if it is there, at the end of the week if you like,
Billy.
Thanks for that offer Billy. Very kind of you
Raylen
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terra,
Thanks for the census details.
I also saw that tree but didn't think it seemed correct.
Robyn,
I had already thought that he may have been in jail or an asylum.
I will have to see if some kind person would do a look up on the inquests
for me at PROV. Hopefully they might tell us more.
Raylen
-
Here is a really basic summary of what has been found.
Please excuse any errors or omissions due to me being in a rush to get it done ::)
Alexander Chrystie b c1839 either London or Jamaica d 1916 Melbourne
Possible arrival for him in Vict "Anglesey" Apr 1863
Father-William Mother-Catherine Selina Wade
Alexanders occupation on marriage certificate - commercial traveler
and on his death certificate - retired civil servant.
Married Ellen/Evelyn/Eveline Tapley (nee Darcy) May 1878 Melbourne
Children
Alexander Charles c1872-1902 Melb, married Alice Maud Louisa Hynam (got childrens details)
Katherine Selina c1876-1924 Heathcote, married Henry Douglas Hall (got childrens details and war service records)
George Wade c1879-? Went to USA after marriage - Reply #68 married Annie Larkin Children - Reply#63
Mary Alice c1881-1955 Nth Sydney married Robert Jarratt Crosthwaite (got details),
Walter William c1879-1884 - 1956 Melb ,married Ellen Maude Hilsden Children - Reply #20
No birth registrations for any of these children.
Ellen/Evelyn/Eveline D’Arcy b c1839 Totnes,Devon,England died 1901 Melbourne
Father-William Reginald Mother-Margaret Dymond
Married John Cowell Tapley JuneQ 1856 Newtown Abbot,Devon
John Cowell Tapley 20 carpenter Newtown Abbot,Devon
Ellen(Darcy) 17
Arrived Port Adelaide 26/8/1856 Aliquis
John Cowell Tapley died 1896 Bendigo 63 years
Children - John Cowell ? -1859 aged 10months S.Aust,
Ellen Darcy 1860 Melb-1870 Echuca,
Herbert John 1863 Melb-1870 Echuca,
William Herbert 1865 Melb-?
No births registered for Ellen 1865 - 1872
TAPLEY John Father John Taylor Mother Harriet WOOLCOCK
59 years Born Kent 1879 Reg#1228
TAPLEY John m BANKS Caroline 1852 Reg#3740
1856 electoral roll John Tapley Collins Street East Supt of Dept Salary Immigration Dept. £600
- At this stage I don’t think this John Tapley is part of this family
Chrystie marriages in Western Aust - Reply#35
Alexander and Ellen Death certificates - Reply #80
Alexander and Ellen Marriage certificate - Reply#81
From marriage certificate
Ellen D’Arcy Tapley widow in 1869 - no divorce in Victoria
Inquests
TAPLEY Helen Darcy
Place Echuca 1870 Reference 268
Cause Accident Drowned
TAPLEY Herbert John E
Place Echuca 1870 Reference 268
Year 1870
Cause Accident Drowned
TAPLEY John C
1896 Reference 605 No further details on index
…….Need to check Inquests
I know this isn't great but it might make things easier if anyone wants
to check back on what's been found.
Thanks again for all your help
Raylen
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I was wondering if the Echuca family History or Historical group might be able to help.
The drowning of two children would have made all the papers of that time.
(It is also possible that Tapley may have been working on the riverboats. He may have set sail as a seaman, or even headed outback.)
I think that you may have to purchase the John C Tapley death certificate to be sure of what is going on.
Robyn in Wodonga
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I won't go down the path of the TAPLEY family in Aus as that seems to have been covered...but I did see some births to Elizabeth and Robert LAWSON and if they have been pm'd to Raylen, will leave that line.
Back to Ellen Darcy TAPLEY.
The only birth on the indexes of all the Ellen's registered between Sept 1837 and Dec 1840 in Totnes, Devon, with a name anything like DARCY. Now if one was illiterate and allowing for accents and of course mistranscriptions. I have done quite a bit of transcribing for UK BMD Lancashire and at times the clerk's writing is appalling.
Birth Dec qtr 1838
DECEY Ellen Margaret Totnes 9/487
1841 Census
Totnes Devon HO107/213/4
SWIFT John 50 years Licensed Hawker Not born county
SWIFT Fanny 40 years Not born county
DACY Mary 9 years Born county
DACY Fanny 7 years Born county
DACY Ellen 2 years Born county
DYMOND Mary 60 years Female servant Born county
?Maternal grandmother caring/raising the children.
Robyn I found the RENDELL's living at Rochester which is on the Campaspe River. Perhaps Ellen was visiting...the accident may not have happened at Echuca just registered at Echuca...could be anyway in the district. Just my two bob's worth but based on the Inquest data.
John's death certificate may show the reason the Inquest was held. I have a couple of certs and it was stated....death due to ....result of inquest held...and the signature, in these two cases, was the local policeman. Perhaps Raylen may consider purchasing John's cert.
Also Jenn mentioned the four children dead and two living on the 1878 marriage cert. The two living would be Alexander and Kathleen/Catherine and the four dead John Cowell, Ellen Darcy, Herbert John and ? William Herbert.
Cheers
Cando
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have you seen this:
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/DEVON/1999-12/0945271929
might be worth contacting them?
Robyn in Wodonga
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Well couldn't the contributors to this thread add a little to that lot....I think we have found all of that and more...haven't we?? ;D
-
Australian Electoral Rolls
1903
RENDELL James Edward Rochester Farmer
RENDELL Kezia Clampit Rochester HD
1903
CHRYSTIE Alexander Blackburn Orchardist
CHRYSTIE Kathleen Selina Blackburn HD
CHRYSTIE Mary Alice Blackburn HD
1909
CHRYSTIE Alexander Blackburn Orchardist
CHRYSTIE Alathea Blanche Blackburn HD
1919, 1924, 1931, 1936
CHRYSTIE Alathea Blanche Cottage Street, Blackburn HD
I will get my Sands and Macdougall directories out and see what else I can find. Of course there will be nothing if they weren't living in Melbourne.
Cando
Edit to correct spelling
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Well couldn't the contributors to this thread add a little to that lot....I think we have found all of that and more...haven't we?? cando
Well, I have to say cando and All that I often look at the discoveries made on this board in the space of a single day and chuckle at the half formed family trees published on the net after years of effort.
Then I soundly pat us all on the back . ;D
Sue
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;) ;) ;D ;D ;D :-X or our hats will be too tight ;)
-
now then girls less chat and more work ;D
Jenn ( but you are quite right)
-
These may help
DEATHS:
LAWSON Robert Lawrence
Father: Lawson Robt Lawrence
Mother: Elizth Abbot TAPLEY
Age: 70: WMSTOWN 1931
12078
MAXWELL Margt Ashton
Father: Lawson Robt
Mother: Eliz Abbott TAPLEY
Age: 69 IHOE 1934
439
and this probably no connection but here it is anyway:
STANTON
Hannah Isabel
Father: Mcgilp Neil
Mother: Florence TAPLEY
Age: 50 ECHUCA
Year: 1934
12619
Robyn in Wodonga
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Hi again
Thanks cando and Robyn for the information you found.
I have just purchased John Cowley Tapley death certificate
( the last for a while as the financial administrator of the
house just said.................no more certificates!!! ;D)
John Cowell Tapley
died 15/5/1896 at Hospital, City of Bendigo. U.R (Usual Residence?) Unknown
Male age 63 years Occupation: carpenter
Cause of death: From injuries received from accidentally falling from a
waggon when returning from the Elmore races
Verdict of magisterial inquiry held by W Webb JP on 16th May 1896
Mother and Father: Unknown
Informant: Const W Black Present at Inquiry
Buried: Bendigo Cemetery 18/5/1896
Minister: Rv Mackillop Church of England
Where born: Unknown,England How long in Colonies: 30 years Victoria
Marriage: Where, how old and to whom - Unknown
Issue from Marriage: Unknown
There you have it! Almost certain that it is Ellen/Evelyns husband.
It seems that we may never find out any more about what really happended
in the time between the birth of William Herbert Tapley in 1865
and Alexander Charles in 1872.
Thanks so much for everyones input into this..........it's been fascinating :D
Raylen
-
The value of a certificate can never be measured by mere money can it Raylen ;) However it does become rather hard to buy buy buy.
The whole story may never be known but you never know who wil be googling away looking for their grandparents and come upon this site and can add more to it.
Jenn
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Oh, I can't resist!
I THINK I am going to the National Library tomorrow. Their catalogue says they hold copies of the Echuca paper from the mid 1800s but not a complete coverage. With a bit of luck I may be able to find some reference to the children's drowning.
Cando, what great finds from the 1841 census and FreeBMD, especially as the child's second name is Margaret which is the name given for Ellen/Evelyn's mother.
Raylen, thanks for typing in all of the info on one post as I was going cross-eyed trying to go back and forth. Are you interested in the earlier UK ancestors?
Hopefully, tomorrow................... ::)
Judith
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Have been looking t copies of the Port Phillip Herald for 1870 available here:
http://www.paperofrecord.com (must subscribe but is free) (do an advanced search for drown)
and in 1870 Victoria was afflicted by extensive flooding,! including around Echuca and Rochester!!! It was so bad the trains could not get through.
Found no mention of the Tapley drownings but lots of other drownings reproted from across Victoria.
Robyn in Wodonga
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Should have asked on previous post:
Do we have any clues as to time of year of 1870 that the children died? I see the reg no 268 for the deaths so perhaps not on the 1st of January??? Is there any way we can find how many death reg's there were in Echuca that year which should at least give an indication.
Thanks for link, Robyn - very useful for all sorts of research.
Judith
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Can't use the pioneer index as only lists place of birth at that time.
consecutive registraion numbers 8999 & 9000. The other numbers refer to the inquest index I assume.
I experimented by inputing 10000 found there was a registration, and then 11000 for which there was no registration listed I then worked backwards
and there seems to be 10099 deaths registered for 1870.
This would indicate that the deaths would have been in the later part of the year.
Only by purchasing the certificates can wen know for sure.
Robyn in Wodonga
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Raylen thought the following information may interest you. I can email you the pdf image of the hospital admissions. The Victorian Gazettes dated would hold no more information that is listed here.
If you would like to pm your email address I also have a little something else for you. ;)
CHRYSTIE, Alex. Victoria Gazetted 26 Feb 1864 Gazette item sub title heading: Unclaimed Ship Letters
CHRYSTIE, Alex. Victoria Gazetted 24 Mar 1864 Gazette item sub title heading: Unclaimed Ship Letters
CHRYSTIE, Doris Catherine. Death 09-06-1988
CHRYSTIE, John Caulder. Fairfield, Victoria Hospital record 3/10/1919
Born: 1916 Age: 3y 6 m. Parent or Guardian: Chrystie, Walter
CHRYSTIE, Mary. Traralgon Cemetery Funeral notice Died: 9/1/97 wife of Robert (dec)
CHRYSTIE, Mary. Fairfield, Victoria Hospital record 25/02/1937
Born: 1901 Age: 36y. Parent or Guardian: Chrystie, Alex [image shows husband of Alex]
CHRYSTIE, Robert Vincent. Traralgon Cemetery Funeral notice Died: 25/12/94 Age: 73. husband of Mary
Cheers
Cando
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Judith and Robyn,
It will be interesting to see if anything does turn up in any of the
newspapers of that time.
cando,
Thank you for those details.
I'd appreciate the pdf image of the hospital admissions when you have a
spare moment.
:o I love surprises! my email address is on it's way to you
Raylen
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Awww, come on- what secrets does Cando have for you LOL LOL ::) ::) ;D ;D :-* :-* :-X :-X (Trying to ensure you (and Cando) can appreciate that I am being facetious!!)
Have had a lovely afternoon trawling the papers and found articles in
The Riverine Herald : Echuca and Moama Advertiser published in Echuca.
I'll put the gist of the articles in as I kow there are quite a few people following this. If you pm me your email I can send you the scans of the articles. Direct quotes shown; I have put in anything about Mrs Tapley as a direct quote.
Wed 12 Oct,1870
The four children of Mrs Tapley "on whom devolved the sole duty of bringing them up, were playing on Sunday afternoon, about 5 o'clock, in a bark canoe at the back of Mr Langley's, the tailor. The eldest, Fanny, about thirteen, had secured the boat, as she thought, with a rope. With her was her sister Nelly, ten years old; a brother, Bertie, seven years and a half; and Willie another brother, about five." Boat capsized; there were a number of people involved in trying to rescue the children. Fanny managed to grab a stick held by another child and get to safety and "Willy" was rescued by a man who managed to grab Willy, hold onto the boat and drift down to the bridge where they were rescued.
The river was draggged but the bodies of the other two, who had been seen being carried along on the current holding on to each other, not recovered. "Mrs Tapley's grief we shall not attempt to portray; she seemed stunned on hearing the news."
Sat 15 Oct 1870
Comment stating that the bodies had not yet been recovered.
Wed 19 Oct 1870
"CORONER'S INQUEST
The bodies of the two children, Ellen D'Arcy Tapley and Herbert John Cowl (sic) Tapley were found in the river yesterday afternoon. A verdict of accidentally drowned was returned.
The first witrness called was Alexander Christy (sic) who identified the bodies." (My bold type)
The rest of the report is from eyewitness accounts of the accident much as the first article.
There had been prolonged flooding of the Murray in the couple of months preceeding but it was not in flood at the time, from what I can gather, although pretty full. Interesting that there is no mention of burial etc - there was another child drowning ealrier in the year with similar article but adding funeral details. Obviously Elln/Evelyn was known as a single parent and obviously Alexander knew tha family well enough to identify the children.
Hope that sheds a little more light.................
Cheers, Judith
-
What a great find.
It really puts one right in the middle of a family drama.
It still leaves open the question of the wherebouts of John Cowell Tapley who it seems was not in Echuca at that time. It would be interesting to see just what is included abour him on the children's death certificates.
Robyn in Wodonga
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Oh well done Judith
it certainly did bring the tale to life, I can only begin to imagine the mothers pain and anguish.
So now then another Tapley daughter Fanny ( perhaps short for FRances )
what happened to her and her wee brother Willie.
I have had a good look around and found nothing on Fanny either.
Jenn
-
Great job Judith! ;D
I'd love to have the scans of the articles you found.
I'll pm my email to you.
As Jenn says - - - another Tapley daughter :-
Hmmmm.....I think I'll have to look further into this too. ???
The saga continues.......
Raylen
-
It seems that Ellen and John and Darcy can be attributed the following
Fannyc 1856 eldest rescued 1870*
John Cowell b&d sa 1857-1858
Ellen Darcy 1860-1870
Herbert John 1863-1870
William Herbert rescued 1870*
The relationship with Taplet had ended by th edrowings in 1870
the two * would have been alive at the time of her marriage to Chrystie in 1878.
So there is at least one more deceased child of this marriage to be found.
Fanny possibly married or left home by this time aged over 20. (still to trace)
William Herbert may well be the William Herbert Chystie in WA marriages.
http://www.saghs.org.au/graves.htm
has John Cowell Tapley's burial details for 1858 and a cryptic one for an Eveline Tapley 18xx and among the John Tapleys there is one for 1869.
Not many early Tapley deaths.
They offer a look up service.
regards
Robyn in Wodonga
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A decision to substitute coffee and cake for a certificate was made ;D ;) ;D
Birth certificate
Herbert John Cowell TAPLEY
born 18th April 1863 38 Lothian St, Hotham,Victoria
Father-John Cowell Tapley 29 (carpenter) born Torquay,Devonshire,England
Mother-Ellen Tapley formerly D’Arcy 25 born Totnes,Devonshire,England
Married 1856 Torquay,England
Children: Living Frances Rebecca age 5, Ellen D’Arcy 3 years One dead.
Robyn - Thank you for trying to make things clearer.
I'm starting to get 'brain pain' :-\ from this family
Having read the marriage certificate it asks for ‘children of former marriage’
so when Ellen stated 4 dead 2 living, was she meaning just her children from her marriage
to John Tapley or had all 4 of the Tapley children died
prior to her 1878 marriage to Alexander and the 2 living children were Alexander Charles
and Katherine Selina Chrystie??
I suppose one can only guess until anything is found on William Herbert and Frances Rebecca.
There is a tree posted on A......y with William Herbert married to Maud Pratt. no date,no place :-\
so who knows how correct that is.
To help me stop flicking between pages :) :) :)
c1857 - Frances Rebecca Tapley born
1858 - John Cowell Tapley jnr born
1859 - 2nd Feb John Cowell Tapley jnr, age 10 months dies in S.Aust
?(Listed on SA cemetery indexes 1858)
1860 - Ellen D’Arcy Tapley born Victoria
1863 - Herbert John Cowell Tapley born in Hotham,Victoria
1865 - William Herbert Tapley born Victoria
1869 - Ellen Tapley claims to have been widowed
1870 - Ellen and Herbert Tapley die in Echuca
Ellen/Evelyn is a sole parent. Alexander Chrystie is an informant at the inquest
and his address is given as Echuca.
1872 - Alexander Charles Chrystie born
1876 - Katherine Selina Chrystie born
1878 - Alexander and Ellen/Evelyn are living in Geelong at the time of their marriage
1896 - John Cowell Tapley- died in Bendigo. His usual residence in unknown.
Raylen
added......Thanks Judith for the files you sent me. All received eventually ;D
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Robyn I feel that all I am doing lately is being negative with your suggestions :-[ I had traced the John TAPLEY who died in SA in 1869 and eliminated him, so didn't mention him at all. His death reg shows an age of 56 years. If I recall I think he may have emigrated to SA c1840. There are quite a number of TAPLEY families in South Australia.
TAPLEY John
23 Jan 1869 56 years Status not known No relative recorded.
Residence Cape Willoughby Lighthouse Death Place Cape Willoughby Lighthouse Ade 34/137
John Cowell Jnr's death reg has already been detailed.
There is no Eveline in the death indexes in South Australia in the 1800's. The only female death with a name starting with E is Ellen in 1860 a 2 day year old daughter of John TAPLEY of Myponga...this John is traceable also.
William Herbert may well be the William Herbert Chystie in WA marriages.
CHRYSTIE William H
BURNARD May
District PERTH Reg#1144 1921
Australian Electoral Roll
1925 WA
CHRYSTIE William Hynam Kalamunda Draughtsman
CHRYSTIE May Kalamunda Housewife
Raylen I wonder if all Ellen's chn [five] were deceased at time of marriage to Alexander. Perhaps she didn't count the infant death of John C in SA. Where are their death regs? The two living chn would surely be Alexander and Kathleen/Catherine. Again we are back to guesswork.
Cheers
Cando
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Raylen,
ah ha whats the saying a minute on the lips a lifetime on the hips, well you swapped that cake for a slice of History instead ( oh groan I know pretty bad )
Did you happen to contact the lady who was looking for information on Crosthwaites.
If she went to South Africa one wonders why? and if so could her missing half sister gone with her.
Regarding the bigamy issue , just my owned scattered thoughts here, according to the newspaper articles she was alone by 1870 raising her children, but Mr Chrystie was also there. So did they meet after she went to Euchuca or before?
If John Cowell Tapley had abanded his family then perhaps they waited the 7 years to have him declared dead and marrying.
All supposition but might be probable.
The registrations of none of their children's birth is a bit baffling. We know that Ellen and John registered their children's births in Victoria at least. Perhaps Alexander was not in favor of that?
muddled ramblings from Jenn
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Hi again,
I think that posts of Raylene's are very helpful, her suggestion that they waited 7 years and had him declared dead is also possible. Just how to search for this in the court records is the question. (will have a go)
&
"Birth certificate
Herbert John Cowell TAPLEY
born 18th April 1863 38 Lothian St, Hotham,Victoria
Father-John Cowell Tapley 29 (carpenter) born Torquay,Devonshire,England
Mother-Ellen Tapley formerly D’Arcy 25 born Totnes,Devonshire,England
Married 1856 Torquay,England
Children: Living Frances Rebecca age 5, Ellen D’Arcy 3 years One dead."
confirms Fanny's exixtence and gives us the name Rebecca to look for and an alternative.
So the question is was she still alive when Ellen married Chrystie.
Information on the youngest son William Herbert b 1865, may clarify things further.
None of this of course answers the question of why none of the births of the children of the marriage with Chrystie were registered.
I might be worth writing the old snail mail way to the Victorian PRO, with all the informaation and copies of the documentation you have and ask for their assitance. It may be that some of the registrations have not been included in the indexes.
It is not the first family I have seen that had numerous children who do not appeare in the births but only on parents death certificates and their own marriage and death certificates. I think this is th 4th indicence in 2 years!!!! Remeber you are not alone in this frustration search.
Robyn in Wodonga
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I think that posts of Raylene's are very helpful, her suggestion that they waited 7 years and had him declared dead is also possible.
It is not the first family I have seen that had numerous children who do not appeare in the births but only on parents death certificates and their own marriage and death certificates. I think this is th 4th indicence in 2 years!!!! Remeber you are not alone in this frustration search.
Robyn are you suggesting that Jenn's [who suggested the 7 years] and my posts aren't helpful. :( Surely not :-\
I did address you by name when detailing the information about William Hynam CHRYSTIE in WA...as you had detailed that a William Herbert CHRYSTIE had married....and in fact the index listed him as William H.
I understood it wasn't uncommon for births not to be registered and especially from one family especially during the first few decades of civil registration in Vic. How could all births from one family be omitted from the Index - one or two yes...more likely the parents' failed to register them. Perhaps you have noticed when researching how often three or four children from one family were registered in the same year but years after their births and then cross referenced. BDM Vic will pass the query on to a "Heritage" and have no idea who or what this is. Info given verbally to me by VicBDM a couple of weeks during an enquiry.
Perhaps some kind chatter may be able to get the inquest papers from PROV for John C TAPLEY [the only name in the indexes in Vic, SA and NSW other than the death of his son in SA]
The saying information on the death certificate only as good as the knowledge of the informant must surely be applied on the John C TAPLEY death in 1896. John C TAPLEY in not on the Bendigo Cemetery Index but that does not mean he isn't buried there. Notice on website states that not all burials are listed.
Oh I agree with Raylen and the 'brain pain' with this lot ;D.....? a rest and no more red herrings for a while.
Cando
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My apologies to all if I have been ambiguous with my thanks or attributions. The thread is getting quite lengthy and I have difficulty following the small print when posting a reply.
All suggestions have been helpful and offer avenues for furthewr investigation.
regards
Robyn in Wodonga
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Today I found an account of the inquest for John Cowell TAPLEY in Bendigo on 16 May 1896, in the Bendigo Advertiser, 18 May 1896.
Tha account really added nothing extra to the information contained in the death certificate that Raylen has already transcribed. There was no information about his family, employment or residence.
Just thought I'd let people know that another possible source of informtion has drawn a blank.
Cheers, Judith
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Thanks Judith for taking the time to look that up.
It looks like he was a real mystery man
The search continues..................... :)
Raylen
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As this post is beyond lengthy :D, I'm locking it.
Please begin a new topic for further questions, including a link to this one.
Great detective work, folks!!
Grub
The intent of locking this topic was for Raylen to open a new topic with the heading: Re: Alexander CHRYSTIE - missing daughters, Part II, with a link to this topic included. I felt that this one is long and convoluted and it would be easier to add to a new topic.
As Raylen has not responded, and more information appears to be available,I will unlock it.
Moderator.
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Hi Moderator,
Thank you for unlocking the Topic.
I appreciate the work that your self and other moderators do, the rootschat
website would be chaotic( to say the least ) without the fantastic work you all do.
My only gripe is the unexpected lock down with no prior warning of this post.
As we are working in different time zones notice of the lock down would have been appreciated,
Kind regards,Billy.
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:o Good grief!! Haven't you all been busy :)
I'll need time to read through and digest all this information
I have been able to get a transcription of the burials at Box Hill cemetery
Church of England Grave 205
CHRYSTIE
Alethea Blanche 1948 Age 72
Alexander Charles 1902 Age 30
Eveline 1901 Age 62
Alexander 1916 Age 77
James Edward 1918 Age 1
Raylen
I managed to get over to Boxhill cemetery on Thursday morning.
I found the burial plot but alas no Grave stone to photograph
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Raylen - alexanders daughter Catherine Selina( birth was never registed as far as we know!) m.Henry Douglas HALL as stated earlier they had 4 Children - can give you all the details if you are still interested!
Moderator Comment: name of living person removed.
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Welcome to Rootschat MPC
It allways interesting when fellow researchers drop by to add to our findings
Jenn
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Raylen - alexanders daughter Catherine Selina( birth was never registed as far as we know!) m.Henry Douglas HALL as stated earlier they had 4 Children - can give you all the details if you are still interested!
Moderator Comment: name of living person removed.
I have had contact with members of the family from this
line and I think I have them pretty much covered.
Thanks so much for the offer :)
Raylen
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Hi again,
I have always thought that some records are out there but we just don't know about them or how to access them. The answers to problems like missing birth registrations may be waiting to be rediscovered among PRO records in storage.
Ada Ackerly a renowned and passionate researcher of all Victorian records makes the following points as she works her way through transcribiing the records made available to hermany are damaged:
This series I indexed from a big register partly eaten by rats about ten years ago, on loan from the Prothonotary of the Supreme Court. The
actual case files, then, were on pallets in storage at the PRO. The
1922-1936 files have just been released. I'm working through them,
noting errors in titles and spelling and allocating box/unit numbers as
they are examined. 2286 case files in total, I've checked 308 files in
the first 6 boxes... a long way to go! Takes about 3-4 hours per box,
depending on condition and number of files per box.
and
There are several files, water damaged in
unit 6, and unreadable, and archivists will likely withdraw the whole
box if individual files are requested and they become aware. Putting the
damp files in plastic sleeves seems folly... the ones I read actually
dried out in the air-conditioning and became readable and the pages
separated as they dried without any forcing. you just have to be patient
with the few files so damaged. Two were so damaged I made no attempt to
open them at all, just noting their title and case number with
"unreadable" in the notes.
and others may hold missing links for many researchers
EQUITY: Applications for late registrations of birth, actions for
custody of children after marriage breakdowns, sad stories from widows
who seek "maintenance out of corpus" or to use the lump sum inheritance
to feed and educate their children, with sad tales of desperation,
farming out of hungry children, seeking to get income through the
Neglected Children's Department, etc... there are some harrowing tales
in "Equity Case Files".
I think that it is worth continuing to look,explore and "google" as new information is being made public every day.
We are indebited to all researchers such as Ada, without their hard work most of the on line records we access would not be available.
regards
Robyn
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Bit More,
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13218201
SMH Monday 17 October 1870 page 2 details about Mrs Tapley, needlwoman and the two drownings at Euchuca on the Sunday afteroon.
Cheers,
JM
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It's not a bit more JM....the gist of the article is already on the thread.
Perhaps this thread should be locked again.
Cando
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Just going to post something similiar to you comments Cando.
Not wishing to appear disparging to JM but the information regarding the article is on the thread, JudB went to a lot of trouble to go to the library and get the relevant articles.
Sometime repeating information .. which we can all be guilty of... just bogs down the thread so that peeps don't bother to read every page after page aqnd then go adding information that they think is new.
Just my observations
Jenn
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Sorry All,
I had read the thread before I posted the newspaper link, which noted Mrs Tapley's occupation and employer. I apologise if that type of detail is not of interest to you all, and I note that there was no mention of her missing Mr Tapley in the article. I had not found mention of her occupation in this thread.
I am sorry that my posting has caused you all these concerns. I have again read back through and cannot find mention of her occupation or employer. Again, sorry.
JM
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Please no need to apologise, the extra about Mrs Tapley will no doubt be of interest to Raylen
Jenn
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The gist of the article was posted on thread and a scan of the newspaper item was emailed to Raylen.
The NLA newspaper database was not online at the time.
Cando
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Hi to you all,
Thanks for everyones input on his thread.
It certainly has been an interesting journey
and I've had some fantastic results from all your hard
work.
I think all that is left to say now is.......................
Case closed! ;D
Raylen