RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: groat on Saturday 10 January 09 16:28 GMT (UK)
-
I'm posting this in the London section simply because I have to start somewhere and London was where Flora was in 1905. Maybe the Yorkshire section would be more appropriate?
Flora Marie Dorette Sophie McDonald was my grandmother. She died on February 12th 1915 aged 37 at Mellor Brook, Blackburn and was buried at Blackburn Cemetery on February 15th.
Both her maiden and her married surname were McDonald.
She was the wife of John McDonald born around 1874 (I haven’t found his birth record yet but he had older siblings born 1872 and 1873). They were married 6th September 1905 at the Church of Our Lady of Victories, High Street, Kensington. Her address in the Wedding Report was given as St John’s Wood Park and her parents listed as Mr John and Mrs McDonald of Scarborough. In the BMD index she appears as Mary Dorette S F McDonald. Her husband (my grandfather) was in the army and his address for the marriage was given as The Curragh.
This is all the information I can find about her and her parents. No census records – no birth record – nothing prior to her marriage in 1905. With such a distinctive name you’d think it would be easy to track down her origins. Has anyone any suggestions as to where I might look next?
Regards,
Ian
PS I have a photo of Flora if it might help but I don't know how to post it!
+++
+++
-
Hi groat,
What were the names of the witnesses on John and Flora's marriage certificate?
Kath
-
Hi groat
Does the marriage cert give an occupation for her father?
We should be able to find her in the 1881, 91 and 01 censuses unless her father was also in the army and they were abroad at the time.
Dawn
-
In the BMD index she appears as Mary Dorette S F McDonald. –
no birth record –
So - have you found birth or Not? !!!
-
There is a birth reg on FreeBMD
transcribed as
Do*Te Sophia M MacDonald
Sept 1876
Kensington
1a 51
image reads (to me)
as
Dorette Sophia M MacDonald
(note spelling of "McDonald")
Suz
-
Well done Suz,and there was me about to suggest how Scottish the whole name sounds ,and to suggest that Groat looks there ;D
Carol
-
What an avalanche of replies!
I don't have the marriage certificate - I have a "Wedding Report" filled in by hand and intended for publication in the Acton Express. It gives the names of the bride and groom and their parents, best man, bridesmaids and guests, etc, but no details as to occupations or who the witnesses were.
No Lizdb, I hadn't found the birth record (but it seems Suzard now has!) - the BMD record I found was the marriage in 1905.
If Suz's discovery is the right one - and it certainly looks like it - Flora seems to have deducted a couple of years off her age at some stage.
If she was born in Kensington and married in Kensington, where might the Scarborough connection fit in?
I'm pretty sure there's no Scottish connection on the McDonald side of my family (John McDonald's parents were Irish) unless something appears in Flora's background. The Scottish side is my maternal side of the family investigated elsewhere on this site.
Thanks for all your responses - I feel as though I've got somewhere already!
Regards,
Ian
+++
-
Ian
As regards her age-don't forget that it wasn't Flora giving the info to the registrar on her death,but distressed rellies who may not have remembered the exact date.
Carol
-
Still might help to get the actual marriage cert for names and occupations for fathers (the marriage report may not be accurate eg not using real names but names the fathers might be known by, my dad is known as John but his 'real' name is Walter). Then you should have a better chance of finding them in the 1901 census.
Freebmd
Sept 1/4 1905
John McDonald & Mary Dorette S F McDonald Kensington 1a 460
-
Hello again
I now have copies of my grandmother's birth and marriage certificates.
The BC names her as Dorette Sophia Maria, her father as John MacDonald, occupation butler, and her mother as Lucy Leonora MacDonald formerly Feldmann. Informant was L L MacDonald, Mother, residing at Paddington Workhouse, which was also the place of birth. DOB 8/9/76.
The MC names her as Mary Dorette Sophia Flora McDonald (sic), 27, spinster, living at Park House, St Johns Wood, with no Occupation. Her father is listed as John McDonald, Butler.
The witnesses were John Macdonald (sic) and George McDonald (who I'm certain is the groom's elder brother).
With this additional information I still haven't been able to trace the family in any of the censuses.
Does anyone have an idea how I can make progress?
Thanks for reading.
Regards,
Ian
+++
-
I don't know if this will be any help,but the 1911 census www.1911census.co.uk
lists a 33 year old FLORA SOPHIA DOUTHY MCDONALD in a military establishment in Guildford. Unfortunately without paying 10 credits(about a £1) to view it I can't see who she's there with.
Would she have any children by then? If so what are their names and DOB's?
Have you any more thoughts on the Scarborough link?
Regards
Carol
-
Hello Carol
Shows you how switched on I am - I didn't know the 1911 census was available yet!
Her husband John McDonald was in the East Lancs Regiment so she certainly could have been in a military establishment. Might "Douthy" be an error for "Dorette"? She had 5 children, 3 of them born by the end of 1911 (the fourth was born in July 1912 in Preston, Lancashire and the fifth was my father born Blackburn, Lancashire, November 1913). The first 3 were, in order of age, Eustace, Edmund and Enid. I think Enid was born in 1911 but the other two I don't know. I can't find them in BMD - perhaps because they were born in military places? Also all 3 would have had a second forename, but again I don't know them.
Just for clarity all 5 siblings are now dead so we're not treading on anyone's toes.
Thanks for your help.
Regards,
Ian
+++
-
Just for clarity all 5 siblings are now dead so we're not treading on anyone's toes.
Ian
+++
Only if we step on their graves ;D ;D ;D
Pm on it's way to you ;D
Carol
-
Just to tidy things up.
The 1911 lady that I found at a military base in Guildford is indeed correct.
Ian says the 1911 clearly says Dorette(if you know that's what it's supposed to say ;))
She has with her, children Edmund George McDonald b Guildford March 1909
Enid Flora Marie (b Flora E M in Guildford March 1911) mistranscribed as 3,in fact she's 3 months.
Eustace James b 1908 Curragh Co Kildare Ireland.
No sign of dad John though.
If anyone can offer suggestions as to where he is that would be great ;D
So we now know that this family are very keen on swopping the order of their names round.I wonder if we can find them on previous censuses now?
Carol
-
In the GRO regimental birth indexes I have found the birth of Eustace J McDonald in Curragh in 1907- dad John was serving in the 30th and the ref is volume 1140 page 138.
Carol
-
Hello again
With Carol's help I now have a pretty full picture of the family of John McDonald and Mary Dorette Sophie Flora McDonald (or Macdonald) in 1911. Their children were my father and aunt and uncles and I've already learnt a lot that I didn't know.
However, I've drawn a blank when trying to trace the background of Mary Dorette's family.
What I know is:
She was born on 8/9/1876 in Paddington Workhouse
Her name on the BC was Dorette Sophia Maria
Her father on the BC was John MacDonald, occupation Butler
Her mother was Lucy Leonora MacDonald formerly Feldmann
The informant was L L MacDonald, mother, residing at Paddington Workhouse
I can't find mother, father or daughter between then and 6/9/1905 when, as Mary Dorette Sophia Flora McDonald, spinster, 27 years, residing at Park House, St Johns Wood Park she married John McDonald at the Church of Our Lady of Victories in Kensington High St. On the MC her father is given as John McDonald but he signs as witness John Macdonald.
The wedding report in my possession seems to indicate the bride's (and groom's) parents as being present. Bizarrely (it now seems to me) the report says that the bride's parents are from Scarborough.
I also can't find John or Lucy (or Louise or Louisa) Leonara or John MacDonald (or variants) or a relevant Miss Feldmann (or Feldman) prior to 1876.
Can anyone help me shed any light on these mysteries?
Regards,
Ian
+++
PS I was going to attach a photo of my grandmother but when I click on "Attach a photograph ..." no Attach or Browse box appears. Does anyone know why?
-
Whoops! - "Leonara" should be "Leonora"
Ian
+++
-
Two Lucy Feldman(n)s on 1871 - married woman,aged 39, b. Burnley, Kent - husband away, children Willm J, 20, and Amelia L (or C?), 19.
Lucy Feldman(n), 20, from Germany, a housemaid living in Leeds.
Church of Our Lady of Victories in Kensington is a Catholic church, which could be a good hint.
I would check Scottish records for the marriage as well.
-
The 1911 lady that I found at a military base in Guildford is indeed correct.
Ian says the 1911 clearly says Dorette(if you know that's what it's supposed to say ;))
No sign of dad John though.
If anyone can offer suggestions as to where he is that would be great ;D
Ian
Have you tried posting on the Miltary board of Rootschat to see if anyone can suggest where the kids dad was in 1911.Or have you found his Army service record yet?
I wonder if they kept swapping their names round to avoid being found ::)
And changing the surname from Mac to Mc at the drop of a hat too!
Carol
-
Thank you for your responses
1) Jorose
I found Lucy Feldmann aged 39 who also appears in subsequent censuses. Feldmann is her married name so she doesn't appear to qualify.
Lucy Feldman(n) aged 20 in Leeds appears to be about the right age but I can't find her in the 1971 census. Can you give me a pointer? What was your search term? It would be helpful if we could find her getting married.
Which Scottish records should I search and why? The marriage was in London. The groom was an English soldier and his parents were Irish but living in Brighton.
2)Carol
I'll post a question on the Military board but can you tell me how I go about finding his army service record?
I know that in 1905 John McDonald was a sergeant in the East Lancashire Regiment. I also know that he was a Chelsea Pensioner (living in Chelsea Hospital) when he died around 1951 but I haven't found a record of his death or of his time at Chelsea Hospital.
The Mac/Mc problem is a nuisance but unlikely to be deliberate. If your'e called McDonald in England you learn very early in life not to worry how people spell your name. By and large it's not worth the effort of correcting it every time it's spelled wrong!
Regards,
Ian
+++
-
Lucy Feldmann the 20 yr old German housemaid is enumerated in 1871 at:
RG10/4560/53/15
Anna
-
Which Scottish records should I search and why? The marriage was in London. The groom was an English soldier and his parents were Irish but living in Brighton.
The marriage of Dorette to to Mr Mc was London, and he was English soldier with Irish parents
BUT we havent found marriage of her mum Lucy F to another Mr Mc, who we dont know form whence he came! I think it was for this marriage that Scotland was suggested, as this Mr Mc could be a Scottish one, maybe. And no one can find the marriage in England .....!
-
The BC names her as Dorette Sophia Maria, her father as John MacDonald, occupation butler, and her mother as Lucy Leonora MacDonald formerly Feldmann. Informant was L L MacDonald, Mother, residing at Paddington Workhouse, which was also the place of birth. DOB 8/9/76.
The MC names her as Mary Dorette Sophia Flora McDonald (sic), 27, spinster, living at Park House, St Johns Wood, with no Occupation. Her father is listed as John McDonald, Butler.
Ian, just an observation (from someone trying to find rellies in Paddington/St Marylebone with Catholic origins).
I do have my grandmother's Confirmation Certificate, usually the person being confirmed takes a 'confirmation name'. My friends daughter's all took Therese after Saint Therese of Lisieux.
It's possible an extra name came from her confirmation (although I have just realised the extra name is Flora? Not sure if I have ever heard of Saint Flora (but I could be wrong - it would not be the first time ;D
Pat ...
-
Yes, that was my thought - also in Sculcoates in 1901 there are John McDonalds born both in Scotland and one in Ireland...
Irish records are also a possibility.
We should probably also check overseas bmds in case there was a marriage elsewhere.
If he was a butler, he could have travelled about - either when his employer was travelling or having originally been working in Scotland and then was recommended for a post in London.
There is a John McDonald, aged 45, b. Bedale, Yorkshire in St. Marylebone in 1901 who is widowed and has occupation of Domestic Butler, if anybody can supply the full info for him.
-
There is a John McDonald, aged 45, b. Bedale, Yorkshire in St. Marylebone in 1901 who is widowed and has occupation of Domestic Butler, if anybody can supply the full info for him.
He's one of several lodgers in a lodging house at 19 Seymour Mews, St Marylebone (RG13/108/48/51):
John Macdonald Lodger Widr 45 Butler Bedale Yorks
The other lodgers are all single male workers.
Anna
-
From a combination of the Times and census I found who was living in Park House in 1881 - John E. Gardner, 69, b. St. Martins and three of his children (his son listed as John J was John Starkie Gardner who is mentioned in the times as J. Starkie Gardner). They had several servants - perhaps Doretta was working at this house when she married.
-
J Starkie Gardner LOL
I used to work for a Company of that name in Hadleigh Suffolk in the 1970s.
They had moved from south west London and made balustrading and staircasing.
Wonder if it is the same Starkie Gardner :o
Pat ...
Now off to do some Googling :D
-
Lots on J Starkie Gardner 1844-1930 ::)
Looks like JSG the son.
The following has an article on the Company
http://www.glias.org.uk/news/213news.html
It also mentions that he was known as 'Metalworker to King Edward VII'
Pat ...
-
Hello
The Gardner family were still living at Park House, St John's Wood Park in 1901 and 1911, each time with 4 servants, but no sign of Mary Dorette.
Thoughtless of her to have been there right between two census dates!
I have had a further look at the (fragmented) 1905 Wedding Report of Mary Dorette (referred to in the Report as Flora McDonald) and John McDonald. Intriguingly a Mr Gardner Esquire and Miss Gardner (from Park House maybe??) are listed as having given a wedding present although it's not clear whether they were actually wedding guests.
In addition, although the bride's parents are stated to be Mr John and Mrs McDonald of Scarborough, the list of guests and presents includes "bride's father, eiderdown quilt" with no mention of the bride's mother so perhaps Mrs McD was not present. This would put John McDonald, aged 45, b. Bedale, Yorkshire in St. Marylebone in 1901 who is widowed and has occupation of Domestic Butler
in contention. Bedale is only across the Yorkshire Moors from Scarborough and only a similar distance from Leeds where a Lucy Feldmann was employed in 1871.
Downside is that John would be only 19/20 to Lucy's 25 when Mary Dorette was conceived/born and how would she have got from employment as a single girl in Leeds in 1871 to Paddington Workhouse as a married mother in 1876. Perhaps, if this is the right couple, they simply didn't marry.
And where was their daughter between 1876 and 1905?
Has anyone any ideas?
I still don't seem able to post a photo here. Can anyone help me?
Regards,
Ian
+++
-
I think some boards don't allow attachments - I can't attach an image to this thread either.
If she was working for the Gardners then that would explain both the address and the gift. (Hmm). Also, the age of John in 1901 might be off as he's a lodger, as could the
There is a Doretta C. "Fettmann" on the 1881 census in Manningham (Bradford area), Yorkshire, 25 years old, single.
In Aiskew, Yorkshire in 1881 (very near Bedale), there's a Sarah MacDonald, 60, b. Ireland, lodging house keeper, with granddaughter Flora MacDonald, 5, b. Bradford.
I think in 1871 Sarah is in Kirby Fleetham parish, with husband Walter and a son, Joseph, listed. Joseph is 28 in 1871 and doesn't marry until 1880. No sign of them in 1861 that I can see.
-
Hi Ian
Re: attaching a photo to this post
Historically, the majority of attachments that used to be posted on the request boards were census and certificate images.
For copyright reasons this is not allowed, so the facility to attach images is blocked on the 'look-up request' boards.
Sorry.
Dawn.
-
Hello Carol
I was just about to post my questions on the Armed Forces board when I noticed it specifically asks for no look-up requests. Did you have another Military board in mind?
Thanks
Ian
+++
-
Ian,this is the one I meant,as opposed to the armed forces resources board ;)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,300.0.html
In that section you also have the option to choose a WW1 or WW2 board too.
Carol
-
Hello again
I've spent some time now trying to trace my Grandmother's parents and this is a resume of what little I have found. Much of it has already appeared on this thread but I have tried to tie together all the bits and pieces I have (which is not really very much).
According to her Birth Certificate (September 1876) she was born Dorette Maria Sophia MacDonald on 8th September 1876 in Paddington Workhouse. Her father is listed as John MacDonald (although the cert is not signed by him), occupation Butler.
Her mother is listed as Lucy Leonora MacDonald formerly Feldmann who signs herself LL MacDonald
According to her Marriage Certificate (September 1905) on which she appears and signs as Mary Dorette Sophie Flora McDonald, her father is John McDonald (although signed by him John Macdonald), occupation Butler. In the Wedding report (apparently intended for a local newspaper) the Bride’s parents are listed as John and Mrs McDonald of Scarborough.
In 1901 there is a John Macdonald, aged 45, b. Bedale, Yorkshire, widower, living at 19 Seymour Mews, London (St. Marylebone district), occupation Domestic Butler.
In 1891 there is a John Macdonald, aged 34, b. Catterick, Yorkshire, (quite close to Bedale!), said to be single, living at Cadwell Hall, Lincolnshire, occupation Butler.
In 1881 I can find no candidate.
In 1871 there is a John McDonald, aged 14, b. York (perhaps Yorks?), an errand boy living at the Wheatsheaf Inn, 32 Upper Head Row, Leeds. This is within half a mile of where Lucy Feldmann, aged 20 according to the census – but maybe she overstated her age – from Germany, is living as a housemaid at 5 Fallowfield, Leeds. I realise this is stretching it a bit but I need straws to clutch at.
The factors linking (you may think somewhat weakly) these entries are the occupation of Butler and the county of Yorkshire.
Apart from the Lucy Feldmann living in Leeds in 1871 and the Lucy Leonora MacDonald appearing on the BC, I can find no references identifiable as the Lucy Feldmann/Macdonald/MacDonald/McDonald who was my great-grandmother.
Nor can I find a death record for either of these people.
Can anyone help me confirm or eliminate any of the above listings or suggest other avenues to explore?
Perhaps I should post this on the Yorkshire board as well?
Any advice welcome.
Regards,
Ian
+++
-
Update in case any more descendants turn up. 2 recent threads with more information.
Flora Sophie Dorothy MacDonald
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=849658.0
Patrick McDonald
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=846754.0