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Family History Documents and Artefacts => Family Bibles => Topic started by: findem on Friday 23 January 09 01:53 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone have or know of the whereabouts of a Family Bible containing details of the Harris family of Coggeshall?
The Bible would contain the details of my great grandparents Joseph Harris and Eliza Harris nee Dalton, Joseph and Eliza were both born in 1829, Joseph was born in Pattiswick but baptised in Coggeshall, I have a handwritten extract of their details from that Bible. Other than Joseph all of the three known generations of my Harris line were born in Coggeshall. My grandmother Annie Harris was born 1871 in Coggeshall and would most likely be shown in the bible.
The Bible I believe was in the care of Joseph until he died in 1908 but my mother had no idea of where it ended up, I would of course love to own the Bible but would be satisfied with the family details the Bible contains.
Regards.
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if you google Harris family bible i have seen it on the net, i am interested in the Harris name as i have been trying to research the tree, and i wondered would these names ring a bell in your tree My gr grandfather was a Jack/ john harris his father was George, George was married to a Margaret(molly) Miller. i do not know who or if my gr grandad had any brothers or sister's they came from Essex and i beleive some of the family now live in london
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Hi Shushie,
Thanks for the tip off, I had a quick look at a few of those that came up when I googled, they only contained references to American born Harris people, when I have more time I'll look further.
The Harris names you mention do not appear in the two families I have except for the name John, My gt gt grandparents, Joseph and Lucy (nee Turner) Harris had a son John born about 1838 at Gt Coggeshall, Essex, John married an Emma Harris about 1866. I found John on the 1851 census but his baptism has so far escaped me and I haven't any info on the pair after their marriage, so I'm afraid I can't help you, that doesn't mean to say there is no connection though, it's just that I have very little info regarding Harris Ancestor's siblings. With my Grandmother's siblings for example I found her two brothers and three sisters but the only sibling marriage I have come up with is for one of her sisters. I must confess that I haven't spent much time on tracking ancestor siblings, most of my time has been spent chasing ancestors. With my Harris gt gt grandparents I have marriages for all seven known children but have no info regarding their (gt grandfather's siblings) children.
The following may help you in your research.
The Gt Coggeshall censuses show that there were other Harris families in Coggeshall along with mine who I have yet to find a link to mine, some were also born in Coggeshall but there were others born in Woodham Ferrers, Essex.
There are also some Harris families to be found in the PRs (online and free) for Chelmsford and next door parish Moulsham St Johns, in fact living next door to my Grandparents in South Primrose Hill, Chelmsford, was a George Harris & family, my grandmother was unaware of a connection.
Off the top of my head I'm fairly certain I have seen mention of another Harris family at Little or Great Waltham, Essex, if my memory serves me correct there was a Joseph Harris born there around 1806, the same year as the Joseph Harris I'm stuck on but he's not mine.
Have you tried a Harris search on RootsChat?
If there are any other Harris names or info you would like to discuss feel free to contact me, perhaps by PM would be best. Also if you get a little further back I have a few Harris people born in the 1700's in various parishes around Essex that I have on a "Spares" database.
Regards.
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Hi
I have John Turner Harris married Emma Jepp on 8 Oct 1871. It looks like she had two children before the marriage Emma b1866 & Emily b 1869, she went on to have six other children one of which Leonard James Harris b1891 is my wife's grandfather. I also have a Walter Harris but no other info.
I have just found RootsChat, how can we make contact to discuss Joseph & Lucy.
Thanks
James
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Hi James and welcome to Rootschat, Findem was last on this site at 2.17 this morning and as he lives in Australia he will no doubt be on here later this evening (UK time). One way that you could contact him is via a PM however you will have to make three posts on the main boards to be able to do this failing that I would wait to see when he comes back on as he will no doubt get a notification that someone has posted on this thread via his e-mail account.
old rowley
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Hi James D,
You have hit on a sore point with John Turner Harris, many years ago I found reference to a John Turner Harris in the 1881 census for Coggeshall, his wife was named Emma.
Having a middle name of Turner I would expect him to be a son of my ancestors Joseph Harris and his wife Lucy Turner, John's YOB calculated from the 1881 census would be 1838 and that slots in nicely with the the family of Joseph and Lucy whose known children were born from 1831 to 1843. The problem is that I have checked the Coggeshall baptism PRs three times and not found John Turner Harris, whether it's because he's not there or I'm simply missing him for what ever reason, I don't know.
Over a good few years I have had contact from a couple of people claiming descent from a John and Emma Harris, one named John's wife as Emma Harris and the other as Emma Jepp, both gave the year of marriage as about 1866.
In my two Harris families the only occurence of a John Harris is the one mentioned above.
Although you cannot send me a PM I believe I can send you one, so I will send you a PM (hopefully)and I believe if you click on the reply button attached to the PM you will be able to answer it. If it doesn't work reply via this post.
Regards
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PM sent
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I'm still very new to it all but my father's maternal side of things includes Harris' of Great Coggeshall. I have as much information as I have been able to find listed on ancestry.ca perhaps somewhere there is a connection:
John Harris 1814 marries Elizabeth Nichols b.1828
Their children:
Samuel George Leonard Harris b. 1857
Emma Harris b. 1860
Clara Harris b. 1863
Julia Harris 1866
Phoebe Harris 1869
All Great Coggeshall, Essex
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Hi Rachel,
Sorry but in my two Harris families the only John Harris is the John Turner Harris mentioned in this topic and I'm still not 100% sure if he belongs to my line, I have yet to find his baptism the only mention I've found of him is in a Census, the only reason I consider he might be a sibling of my ancestor is because of his middle name of Turner.
With my Harris line I am still at the same stage I was when I started this topic, that is still looking for Joseph Harris who claims in the 1851 Census for Coggeshall that he was born circa 1806 in Little Coggeshall, hence my hope of one day finding the whereabouts of the Harris family bible which might give me Joseph's parents.
There could be a link with your John 1814 in that he could be a brother of my Joseph c1806 but that's something we cannot confirm until the baptism of Joseph Harris c1806 surfaces.
By the way I recall seeing in Censuses for Coggeshall, Harris people stated as being born in Woodham Walter, I haven't found a connection with them to my Harris line.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Regards.
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Hi again--- a long pause between answers LOL--- okay, it turns out that John Turner Harris is my 1st cousin 3x removed. He did indeed marry Emma Jepp. John's mother, Emma was sister to my 2x great grandfather, John Harris.
How has your search been going? Any luck?
Rachel
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Hi Rachel,
Absolutely no luck at all, I'm still at the same place I was in my last reply.
Still haven't found a baptism for John Turner Harris so I can't be 100% sure he is the son of Joseph Harris and his wife Lucy Turner, although with a middle name of Turner I would expect him to be.
Joseph & Lucy had seven children, three of whom had the middle name Turner, the afore mentioned John, Caroline and Lucy.
Joseph Harris born circa 1806 at Little Coggeshall (so he claims) still remains elusive like his son John Turner Harris born c1838.
I note that you state "John's mother Emma was sister to......." what date do you have for that John Turner Harris?
If John's mother Emma is sister to your 2 X great grandfather John Harris, did Emma Harris marry a Harris or was your John Turner Harris illegitimate? I'm a bit puzzled by a female Harris having a child with the surname Harris unless as I've mentioned she married a Harris or had an illegitimate child.
These Harris families seem to be out to confuse me. ::) :)
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You are quite right--- I am not sure how the nomenclature works. It is certainly odd:
Here's the Joseph-Emma Harris connection:
ENGLAND & WALES FREE MARRIAGE INDEX
Name: Joseph Turner
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1844
Registration district: Witham
Inferred County: Essex
Volume Number: 12
Page Number: 443
Records on Page:
Name
Emma Harris
Joseph Turner
John Turner Harris
Birth Sep Qtr 1839 in Great Coggeshall, Essex, England
Death Jun Qtr 1882 in Braintree Dist. Essex, England
The 1851 Census:
Name: John Turner
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Joseph Turner
Mother's name: Emma Turner
Gender: Male
Where born: Coggeshall, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Great Coggeshall
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Registration district: Witham
Sub-registration district: Kelvedon
ED, institution, or vessel: 2b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 133
Piece: 1783
Folio: 461
Page Number: 31
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Turner 48
Emma Turner 31
John Turner 12
Emma Turner 8
Sarah Lye Turner 3
Eliza Turner 1
Are you on Ancestry? If so I can invite you to look over my family tree. Perhaps we'll identify some people in common that can help us narrow things for you.
My profile there is:
Rachel Williams
BC, Canada
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Hi Rachel,
First off, I am on Ancestry but haven't put my tree on there.
Having a look at my family group sheets I'm wondering if the Joseph Turner you mentioned, husband of Emma, could be the brother of my ancestor Lucy Turner, wife of the c1806 elusive Joseph Harris?
Lucy Turner was bap 1802 at Pattiswick, her brother Joseph was baptised 1800 at Pattiswick, their parents were William Turner and his wife Elizabeth Betts.
From St Peter ad Vincular, Coggeshall marriage register a Joseph Turner married Emma Harris 20 Jul 1844 at Coggeshall. I can't place Emma Harris in my Family Group Sheets but she could well be related through through a sibling of one of my Harris ancestors. Joseph Turner might well have been introduced to his future wife Emma Harris via Lucy Turner's association with my Joseph Harris, or of course vise versa.
As for John Turner Harris he remains elusive, can you tell me where you got the reference to John Turner Harris born Sep Quarter 1839 at Coggeshall please? I've just done a recheck of Free BMD and the nearest I can find is a John Harris birth registered in the Lexden District Dec quarter 1840 vol 12 page 14, I get nothing for 1839. I am assuming you are referring to a birth registration because you mention Sep Quarter 1839, perhaps I'm making an incorrect assumption, wouldn't be the first time and probably not the last. ;D
My assumption that the parents of John Turner Harris might be Joseph Harris (c1806) and Lucy Turner is based on:-
1) The 1881 Census has him named as John Turner Harris and being born in Coggeshall.
2) Joseph and Lucy Harris named 2 of their 6 proven children Caroline Turner Harris and Lucy Turner Harris.
I couldn't find hair nor hide of him in the St Peter ad Vincular baptism register where I found the other children, perhaps he slipped through the net and wasn't baptised.
Incidentally the first child of Joseph and Lucy Harris was Joseph Harris my great grandfather, he was born in Pattiswick and baptised in Coggeshall.
Regards.
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We must be closing in :)
I have a Lucy Turner Harris --- The fact that first names Joseph and Lucy reappear points to an earlier relative. In other words we are just a generation or two out of sync.
ENGLAND & WALES FREE BMD BIRTH INDEX
Name: Lucy Turner Harris
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1843
Registration district: Witham
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 12
Page: 323
I got the John Turner Reference from his death record. This also matches the census data for him 1841-1881. It just didn't add in his middle name.
ENGLAND & WALES FREE BMD DEATH INDEX
Name: John Harris
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1882
Age at Death: 44
Registration district: Braintree
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 259
Because Joseph Turner married into my Harris family I have not added relatives for him but I will do so later today and report back.
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Okayyyy---- so here's how it all fits LOL (I hope)
Lucy Turner (abt. 1802-1885) marries Joseph Harris (abt 1807-1869) around 1831 --- presumably in Essex--- no Coggeshall record of marriage but eldest son Joseph is listed as being born around 1832 so 1831 is a reasonable marriage date guestimate.
Lucy's brother, Joseph Turner (abt. 1803-1858) marries Joseph Harris' sister Emma (1820-1883) in March, 1844 (Witham record)
So therein lies much of the confusion. This information is reflected in 8 shared family trees on Ancestry.
So in my case, Emma Harris is my 2x great grandaunt and Joseph Harris is my 2x great granduncle. I descend through Emma and Joseph Harris' brother, John Harris (my 2x great grandfather) all three children born to Samuel Harris (1784-1841) and Amelia Windall (1780-1879). Amelia and Samuel were both at the battle of Waterloo 1815 with their 3 oldest children Joseph, Samuel and John.
So, it looks like you and I are cousins :)
We have a small Harris group on FB if you would like to join (we'd love to have you with us). My FB page is linked through my in-progress Geneaology website-blog http://williams-thomas-doran.blogspot.ca/
The Harris branch has an entry there that may be of use to you.
Hope this helps,
Rachel Williams :)
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Hi cousin Rachel :)
Visited your great site, much impressed. Couldn't find anything of importance to disagree with although I would dearly like to know how someone linked my elusive Joseph Harris circa 1806/7 with Samuel and Amelia Harris, have I missed something? I would be over the moon to have a link of some sort to Joseph's parents, if as you say Samuel served in the Napoleonic war and Amelia plus three sons followed Samuel it's possible children, including Joseph, were born in places where Samuel was stationed even overseas.
Incidentally I have in my 'Spares Database' one child of Samuel and Amelia Harris, a son Samuel born 27 May 1805 and baptised 6 Apr 1808 at Coggeshall, I probably recorded Samuel as a reminder to myself that there were other Harris families in Coggeshall.
From my research, comments:-
Children of Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner
1) I think you're right with your thoughts on William Harris, son of Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner, marrying Ann Nichols they married 20 May 1858
2) Eliza Harris married Arthur Mayhew Dec quarter 1863 Witham Reg District.
3) Lucy Turner Harris married Albert Bright Dec quarter 1867 Witham Reg District.
Since in those days Coggeshall was in the Witham Registry District I would imagine that both Eliza and Lucy would have been married in St Peter ad Vincular Coggeshall, the various Coggeshall ancestors and their siblings whose certificates I have purchased where the Registry District is Witham the events took place at Coggeshall.
There is a problem I found with the marriage of Sarah Ann Harris (daughter of Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner) to George Rowland which I also show. In the 1881 census for George and Sarah Ann Rowland there is Ann Harris who in the relationship to the Head (George) is stated as mother in law. I’m wondering if there was another Sarah Ann Harris in Coggeshall or was it just an enumerator or transcriber error.
Regarding John Turner Harris
Have any of your group found the birth or baptism of John Turner Harris c1838?
So far the only mention I have been able to find of John Turner Harris is in the 1881 Census for Coggeshall and (I think) in his marriage entry to Emma Harris.
I note you show John Turner Harris as son of Joseph and Emma Turner, I wonder if there was a mix up and he should have been named John Harris Turner. I can't find any notes in my records regarding his 1871 Coggeshall marriage to Emma Gepp/Gepp, therefore I'm wondering where I got it from and whether the marriage entry recorded him as John Turner Harris or John Harris Turner. It could be a case of Having got the marriage from someone else and not having checked it out myself.
There is no son named John with Joseph and Lucy Harris in the 1841 Census where he would have been only about two or three years old, nor is he with Joseph and Lucy in the 1861 and 1871 Censuses. In the 1891 Census Emma Harris his wife is as expected stated as being a widow.
Btw I have a 5th cousin in Ontario Canada, related to my Coggeshall Dalton line.
Regards.
PS what is FB, I don't think I've come across that site.
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Hi again :)
Okay well lets go over these points--- I'll italicize what you stated and I'll inter-space my answers between them... hope this works :)
Hi cousin Rachel :)
Visited your great site, much impressed. Couldn't find anything of importance to disagree with although I would dearly like to know how someone linked my elusive Joseph Harris circa 1806/7 with Samuel and Amelia Harris, have I missed something?
No you missed nothing. I have no documentation for the connection although Joseph appears in 9 of my family tree connections because of the Lucy Turner marriage.
Also, the Emma Harris-Joseph Turner marriage "is" confirmed and we know Emma's parents were Samuel and Amelia. So "if" Emma and Joseph were brother and sister that makes his parents the same as Emma's. I think it "very" likely that we have the right man.
I would be over the moon to have a link of some sort to Joseph's parents, if as you say Samuel served in the Napoleonic war and Amelia plus three sons followed Samuel it's possible children, including Joseph, were born in places where Samuel was stationed even overseas.
Well this is interesting --- the lack of a baptism or birth record for Joseph is reflected in brother, John. All the census data on John points to Coggeshall except the 1881 census which says he was born in Germany! Also the note in Amelia's Coggeshall burial record mentions 3 sons and the parents at Waterloo. Samuel, Joseph and John all pre-date Waterloo (1815) by birth year.
Incidentally I have in my 'Spares Database' one child of Samuel and Amelia Harris, a son Samuel born 27 May 1805 and baptised 6 Apr 1808 at Coggeshall, I probably recorded Samuel as a reminder to myself that there were other Harris families in Coggeshall.
Oh! I will add this record for Samuel :)
From my research, comments:-
Children of Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner
1) I think you're right with your thoughts on William Harris, son of Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner, marrying Ann Nichols they married 20 May 1858
Yes, and significantly my John Harris married Elizabeth Nichols! So a little more research and I will likely go with that. If we had banns and the father's name listed we'd be able to confirm that :)
2) Eliza Harris married Arthur Mayhew Dec quarter 1863 Witham Reg District.
I have a Mayhew connection for the Warner family--- Clara Harris married James Warner --- again a Harris-Mayhew connection
3) Lucy Turner Harris married Albert Bright Dec quarter 1867 Witham Reg District.
Since in those days Coggeshall was in the Witham Registry District I would imagine that both Eliza and Lucy would have been married in St Peter ad Vincular Coggeshall, the various Coggeshall ancestors and their siblings whose certificates I have purchased where the Registry District is Witham the events took place at Coggeshall.
Make sure you look over The Coggeshall Records online if you have not done so:
http://www.coggeshallmuseum.org.uk/familyresearchers1.htm
There is a problem I found with the marriage of Sarah Ann Harris (daughter of Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner) to George Rowland which I also show. In the 1881 census for George and Sarah Ann Rowland there is Ann Harris who in the relationship to the Head (George) is stated as mother in law. I’m wondering if there was another Sarah Ann Harris in Coggeshall or was it just an enumerator or transcriber error.
Not sure about that BUT we do know there have been enumeration errors before.
Regarding John Turner Harris
Have any of your group found the birth or baptism of John Turner Harris c1838?
So far the only mention I have been able to find of John Turner Harris is in the 1881 Census for Coggeshall and (I think) in his marriage entry to Emma Harris.
Not as yet. However, I have a death record for him
I note you show John Turner Harris as son of Joseph and Emma Turner, I wonder if there was a mix up and he should have been named John Harris Turner. I can't find any notes in my records regarding his 1871 Coggeshall marriage to Emma Gepp/Gepp, therefore I'm wondering where I got it from and whether the marriage entry recorded him as John Turner Harris or John Harris Turner. It could be a case of Having got the marriage from someone else and not having checked it out myself.
That is certainly possible the nomenclature is certainly unusual
There is no son named John with Joseph and Lucy Harris in the 1841 Census where he would have been only about two or three years old, nor is he with Joseph and Lucy in the 1861 and 1871 Censuses. In the 1891 Census Emma Harris his wife is as expected stated as being a widow.
Not sure about that--- names seem to come and go haphazardly in census data.
Btw I have a 5th cousin in Ontario Canada, related to my Coggeshall Dalton line.
Regards.
PS what is FB, I don't think I've come across that site.
Nice to see another family member made it to Canada.
FB = Facebook a few of our family members use it to communicate information and share family pictures.
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Hi Rachel,
Thanks for the clarification on those matters.
Regarding your comment "Make sure you look over The Coggeshall Records online if you have not done so", I have previously spent quite a bit of time on the Museum's Coggeshall Marriages and Burials, unfortunately the Coggeshall Marriages in the Museum site finish at 1851, if only they had transcribed a few more years :). I hope fairly soon to purchase some time on the ERO's Essex Ancestors so I'll check out the marriages for Eliza Harris and Lucy Turner Harris.
I think the circa 1837/8 John Turner Harris or John Harris Turner could do with investigation, I'd love to find out how his baptism entry names him, hoping that he was baptised. ::) ;D
I'm not on Facebook but I'll give it some thought.
Regards.
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Coggeshall
8 Oct 1871
John Harris 32 yrs single man labourer of this parish son of Joseph Turner labourer
Emma Jepp 23 yrs single woman of this parish dau of John Jepp, carpenter
he signed, she made her mark
witnesses James Webb, Eliza Turner, both made their mark
I cannot find the 20 Jul 1844 marriage findem quotes in either the original register on SEAX nor in the transcripts on the Coggeshall Museum website. Page 45 of the register, entry 89 is a marriage on 28 Jun 1844 and entry 90 is Sept 1844. Neither Eliza Harris nor Lucy Turner Harris marry in the parish church. They either married in a different parish or a non-conformist chapel (which was possible post Jul 1837) or the local Register Office.
Looks like John Harris was Emma Harris' son born before the marriage. Whether he was Joseph's son though is subject to debate. John's birth would appear to have not been registered. The birth Rachel refers to is for a John Turner born Sept qtr 1839 Witham Registration District, so not necessarily in Coggeshall. Chances are if he was baptised, it was probably in a non-conformist chapel. Post 1837 non-conformist registers aren't available on SEAX yet.
1841 Census
Stoneham Street, Great Coggeshall
Amelia Harris, 60 yrs, charwoman, born in county
Emma Harris, 22 yrs, tambourer?, born in county
Jno Harris, 2 yrs, born in county
Emma Harris was Samuel and Amelia's daughter, see my reply (no. 22) on this thread from January this year - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=673531.msg5186734#msg5186734
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Coggeshall
7 Mar 1841
Samuel and John base born sons of Joseph Turner and Emma Harris of Great Coggeshall, labourer
Samuel must have died as doesn't appear on the 1841 Census with Emma.
No dates of birth on either baptism but that has to be John because he's with Emma and grandmother Amelia on the 1841 Census. The vicar wasn't averse to baptising illegitimate children as there are a lot of illegitimate children baptised there at that time. ;D
So John was baptised late and was Joseph Turner's son, although it's strange that he didn't adopt the Turner surname when they married.
I doubt very much the 1839 John Turner birth registration is John Harris, there is no sign of one for Samuel under Harris or Turner so that John Turner is probably another in the area. Only purchasing the birth certificate would confirm this.
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Amelia and Samuel were both at the battle of Waterloo 1815 with their 3 oldest children Joseph, Samuel and John.
Rachel you've stated on your ancestry tree that the above statement is listed on Amelia's burial. The remark is actually on the transcript from Coggeshall Museum, it does not appear in the original burial register.
An online pay per view index for the Waterloo Medal Roll shows no Samuel Harris I'm afraid.
Probably worth someone asking them where the remark came from, and their remark only says three children and doesn't name them. :-\
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Coggeshall
23 Jul 1841
Samuel Harris of Stoneham Street, 6 months old, buried
Strange he's not on the 1841 Census because the burial is after the date it was taken. ???
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Findem
Can I make a suggestion possibly re your Joseph Harris? Unless you've already found all the Harris entries for bapt/marriage/burials for Coggeshall, I'd suggest doing this and then have a look at any Harris bridegrooms who married around 1805. Then check to see if any of the bride's had a child before the marriage because if you find a Joseph around the right time, he could be yours and assumed his step father's name.
While it's possible Joseph could have been non-conformist and not been baptised, he doesn't appear to have had a son Samuel or daughter Amelia, which you would have thought he may have if they were his parents. Personally I doubt he's their son but you never know.
For now, it's probably worth spending some pounds (or aussie dollars in your case ;D ;D) and have a look again at the original registers on SEAX. Something may come to light. It may even be a case of a marriage later than 1805. It's worth a try as you don't really have any other leads. I don't doubt your Joseph is probably related to the other Harris families in the parish somehow but to date there is no obvious Joseph to any of them.
One of my ancestors was one of five illegitimate children born to the same mother in Northamptonshire, the latter three have a "reputed" father's name on the baptism but all three surviving children, including my ancestor, assumed the aforementioned father's name even though there is no actual evidence he was my ancestor's father and their mother never married. ;)
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Excellent research and contributions as usual Smudwhisk :)
I strongly suspect that John Turner Harris was born out of wedlock.
John Turner Harris has a sister with a similar name usage born January 1843
Name: Lucy Turner Harris
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1843
Registration district: Witham
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 12
Page: 323
and the marriage for Joseph Turner and Emma Harris post-dates their births at March 1844:
Name: Emma Harris
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1844
Registration district: Witham
Inferred County: Essex
Volume Number: 12
Page Number: 443
Records on Page:
Name
Emma Harris
Joseph Turner
It looks like the marriage took place at the registrars office at Witham.
As to Samuel Harris Sr. and Amelia at Waterloo we did find a few references of Samuel Harris' with the English army as foot soldiers. The Regiments were:
6th Regiment of Foot (Warwickshire)
68th Regiment of Foot (Durham)
33rd Regiment of Foot (West Riding)
1st Battalion 4th Foot (listed as Saml Harris)
7th Queens Own Hussars (listed as Saml Harris)
I've changed the family tree reference to point to Coggeshall Museum as the source for the Amelia and 3 children at Waterloo comment
And from the online Museum Burial Records--- re: Samuel Sr' burial and by implication his death ;) :
1841 Apr 7 Harris Samuel 57 GC Stoneham Street
Thanking you for your help :)
Rachel (in Canada)
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Hi Smudwisk,
Many thanks for your helpful contributions they are very much appreciated.
Regarding your comment " Unless you've already found all the Harris entries for bapt/marriage/burials for Coggeshall, I'd suggest doing this and then have a look at any Harris bridegrooms who married around 1805."
I have already done so and turned up three possibles which I'll copy and paste plus the relevant thoughts I had from my research notes:-
1) 26 Dec 1780 George Harris & Ann Richold.
2) 12 Sep 1795 Robert Harris & Sarah Snellock, Robert noted as being “of Little Coxal”.
3) 24 Dec 1806 Samuel Harris & Amelia Windall, Samuel noted as being “of Little Coggeshall”.
Note Coggeshall was sometimes called Coxal by local people.
Of the three marriages I favour Robert and Sarah as parents of Joseph because of the date but George and Ann cannot be ignored. Nor can Samuel and Amelia be dismissed as parents of Joseph but 1806 being close to the date when Joseph thinks he was born I would have expected the marriage of Samuel and Amelia to be by licence, however often the year of birth in a census is not accurate so a licence might not have been needed.
Also note that it is possible that George’s marriage to Ann Richold may have been his second marriage, although in the marriage entry for George and Ann it did not state George was a widow, the statement may have been inadvertently omitted. A George Harris married Bridget Rose by banns 26 Dec 1771 at Coggeshall.
What I will now do is to check the PRs for Coggeshall and Coggeshall congregationalfrom 1780 to somewhere in the 1800s and compare the names of any Harris children found with the names Joseph and Lucy used for their children. Joseph and Lucy did name a child Sarah but Sarah being quite a common name it cannot be considered proof on its own.
18/1/2014 I have now searched Coggeshall C of E and Congregational registers and the baptism of Joseph Harris c 1806/7/9 is not in those registers.
Since composing the above notes I have of late leaned more towards Samuel and Amelia.
Please fell free to apply critique to any of the above.
I have two Harris families:-
1) Joseph Harris (c1806) and his wife Lucy Turner.
2) Joseph Harris (1831) and his wife Eliza Dalton.
As far as I know neither of those two families named a son George, Robert or Samuel, rotten blighters. :)
By the way Rachel I didn't put those three marriages on this topic because having found them and written them up way back and last saw the notes in January this year they had slipped my memory. It was Smudwisk's comments about checking for Harris marriages that brought them to mind, sorry about that.
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Well Smudwisk thanks again, you've now solved the riddle (in my mind) of does John Turner Harris belong in the family of Joseph Harris and his wife Lucy Turner or not, thanks to your efforts definitely not, I will now remove him from that family but add a note about him for future reference, it's obvious that way back I when got his marriage to Emma Harris it came from someone else rather than my research and I obviously didn't follow it up and check it myself as I should have.
By the way I am already in contact with a lady from the Coggeshall Museum regarding various Coggeshall related matters, I'll email her to check out what she has on Samuel and Amelia's army exploits.
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Well Smudwisk thanks again, you've now solved the riddle (in my mind) of does John Turner Harris belong in the family of Joseph Harris and his wife Lucy Turner or not, thanks to your efforts definitely not, I will now remove him from that family but add a note about him for future reference, it's obvious that way back I when got his marriage to Emma Harris it came from someone else rather than my research and I obviously didn't follow it up and check it myself as I should have.
I think I need a recheck of Caroline Turner Harris bap 14 Jul 1839 and Lucy Turner Harris 16 Apr 1843 to ensure they do belong to Joseph and Lucy Harris, John Turner Harris has me wondering if I slipped up with those two ladies. For good measure I'd better also have a recheck of Eliza Harris (no Turner middle name) born between Caroline and Lucy, Eliza was baptised 7 Mar 1841, all three at Coggeshall.
By the way I am already in contact with a lady from the Coggeshall Museum regarding various Coggeshall related matters, I'll email her to check out what she has on Samuel and Amelia's army exploits.
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The only child of Joseph and Lucy Harris baptised at Coggeshall was Lucy Turner Harris, the others are baptised at Pattiswick, so they obviously remained there after the marriage in 1831:
11 Sept 1831 Joseph Harris to Joseph and Lucy of Pattiswick, mechanic
19 Jul 1835 William Harris to Joseph and Lucy of Little Coggeshall, labourer
9 Apr 1837 Sarah Anne Harris to Joseph and Lucy of Coggeshall, labourer
7 Mar 1841 Eliza Harris to Joseph and Lucy of Coggeshall, labourer
Interestingly, there is no Caroline Harris baptised in 1839 at Pattiswick but there is a Caroline Turner baptised to Joseph and Hannah of Coggeshall, labourer. I wonder if the parish clerk entered the details incorrectly as they do have a Caroline with them born c1839 on the 1841 and 1851 Census, on the latter listed as daughter? I didn't see another Joseph and Hannah Turner floating about in there, but may have missed it.
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Thanks for those checks Smudwhisk, I wouldn't have been able to do them right away myself, I'm in the middle of a nasty head and chest cold and my thinking is not what it should be.
Yesterday around 1.00 pm (Aus time) I sent an email to my Coggeshall Museum contact reading the Battle of Waterloo comments attached to Amelia's burial entry, when I receive a reply I'll post on here.
The baptism entry of Caroline Turner giving her parents as Joseph and Hannah is a pain but as she appeared in the Censuses as a daughter of Joseph and Lucy that's where I've put her, like you I've found no trace of a Joseph and Hannah, I suspect it was a 'clerical' error by either the Rector or the parish clerk, it's happened before. ;D
Regards.
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Hi all,
Here is the reply to my query regarding the Battle of Waterloo entry.
"The entry about Amelia Harris is in the Burial Register which was maintained by a clerk to the Coggeshall Burial Board (which after 1895 became the responsibility of the Parish Council). This register started in 1856 with the opening of the Great Coggeshall Burial Ground established under the Burial (beyond the Metropolis) Act, 17 and 17. Vict.C 134. The burial ground is divided into Established Church sections called consecrated sections (which Amelia was) and Non Conformist (called unconsecrated in the register which does upset some folk).
This register is entirely separate to the church registers which were filled in by the vicar or curate so there is not a mention of her presence at Waterloo.
The original registers are now in the Essex Record Office. They were in the museum up until a few years ago,(so I have actually seen the entry) but they were being mis-handled by the public so we put them in the Record Office. The transcripts that you see on the web are as written in the registers, - I know this is so as it was my husband & I who spent many hours transcribing them. It was a fascinating exercise and we did have some amusement over some entries.
I hope this clears up the discussion over the entry. Best of luck with the search.
Regards"
So there is the answer, I certainly didn't know of those registers, I'll have to check with my contact to see if there is any additional info on the subject in that register.
Regards
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Error (mine)
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Hi smudwhisk,
Sorry to bother you but can I just clarify something with you please, just to make sure I have what you say straight in my mind.
You stated in your post:
"The only child of Joseph and Lucy Harris baptised at Coggeshall was Lucy Turner Harris, the others are baptised at Pattiswick, so they obviously remained there after the marriage in 1831:
11 Sept 1831 Joseph Harris to Joseph and Lucy of Pattiswick, mechanic
9 Jul 1835 William Harris to Joseph and Lucy of Little Coggeshall, labourer
9 Apr 1837 Sarah Anne Harris to Joseph and Lucy of Coggeshall, labourer
7 Mar 1841 Eliza Harris to Joseph and Lucy of Coggeshall, labourer"
Firstly the dates are exactly as I have them, the parts I need to clarify are the baptism places, do I understand correctly that you are saying you found the baptisms of all those four above children in Pattiswick registers?
What I currently have is that the first child, Joseph, was born in Pattiswick in Aug 1831 and baptised in Coggeshall 11 Sep 1831.
The remaining children all six baptised in Coggeshall.
Searching my notes the baptisms of those children were the work of a family member living in Chelmsford at a time before my wife and I were able to visit the UK and of course pre home computers. I have since cross checked any research carried out for me by others, however, I can find no record of having done so for the above family. I did think I had checked Joseph Harris 1831 but perhaps I'm mistaken. I did have a cross check for Joseph's birth date, Joseph's daughter, my great aunt Emily Harris, had at some stage obtained details of Joseph's birth and death from a family bible, my mother discovered it, copied it and sent it to me.
The one thing I do know for sure,other than the dates, is that by the night of the 1841 Census the family were living in Gt Coggeshall.
Regards.
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Sorry a little confusing of me. ;D ;D
The first four children are all baptised at Pattiswick, but on William, Sarah Anne and Eliza's baptisms the family are stated to be living at Coggleshall.
So while they were resident in Pattiswick at the time of Joseph's baptism, they were living in Coggleshall when the next three were baptised and then used Coggleshall church for Lucy Turner's baptism.
I checked the Coggleshall baptism register and apart from Lucy Turner Harris' baptism in 1843, there are no other baptisms to Joseph and Lucy in there.
Hope that's a bit clearer. ;D
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"The entry about Amelia Harris is in the Burial Register which was maintained by a clerk to the Coggeshall Burial Board (which after 1895 became the responsibility of the Parish Council). This register started in 1856 with the opening of the Great Coggeshall Burial Ground established under the Burial (beyond the Metropolis) Act, 17 and 17. Vict.C 134. The burial ground is divided into Established Church sections called consecrated sections (which Amelia was) and Non Conformist (called unconsecrated in the register which does upset some folk).
Interesting. The Samuel Harris military entries Rachel quotes in an early post do not actually refer to the Battle of Waterloo, but relate to enlistment dates for the Napoleonic War 1775-1817 and there is nothing I saw to suggest any of them definitely related to Samuel Harris of Coggleshall. Some of the transcripts do give birthplace, others don't. I'm not saying for definite he didn't serve, but I've not seen anything to confirm this. He definitely does not appear in the online indexes for the Waterloo Medal Roll which you would have expected him to have done if he had served. :-\
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Many thanks for the further clarifications smudwhisk, as for confusing me that's very easy to do at the moment with a head bunged up with a cold. :)
I suspect that Amelia's Waterloo connection comment by the Coggeshall Burial Board's clerk was the result of 'Village lore'. I dare say Coggeshall in those days was one of those places where 'everyone knew everyone else's business' and at the age Amelia lived to she would be known by a lot of people. If it was true it would no doubt have been considered quite an experience and allow the 'legend to live on'. Then again perhaps the story was mentioned by the person who advised the clerk of Amelia's burial, perhaps a relative.
At the end of the day it's beginning to look unlikely that I'll ever have proof positive of who the parents of Joseph Harris c1807 were, a rather ominous looking brick wall.
Regards.
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Here's an interesting snippet from the Chelmsford Chronicle, 25 April 1879:
“The death is reported, at Coggeshall, of a Waterloo heroine, named Amelia Harris. She was the wife of an officer's servant, and appears to have passed through the campaign which culminated in Waterloo. On the eve of the battle she slept on the field with her son, who is still alive. The morning following the first day of the battle she and her husband breakfasted upon raw meat, seated upon a dead horse and surrounded by the slain. Mrs. Harris retained her faculties to the last.”
So now we know, Samuel wasn't a soldier but a civilian, had he been a soldier he would have been classified as Batman. No doubt Samuel and Amelia were sitting on their breakfast! ;D
The info was found by a lady on another genealogy forum.
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Interesting. ;D ;D It's amazing what you do find appearing in the newspapers. ;)
Mind you it's obviously recalled by one of the family but their could be some truth in it.
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Hi smudwhisk,
I'm inclined to believe the story is mostly accurate, the mental picture of a family member sitting on a dead horse eating raw meat is not one easily forgot.
Just a shame it doesn't name the son, although I would expect it to be a Samuel and also name the other two sons if they were there. It's left me wondering if there were three sons with Samuel and Amelia as the Coggeshall Burial entry suggests or just the one as the Chelmsford Chronicle suggests, I guess we'll never know, unless there are reports of Amelia in other newspapers.
Regard.s
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Hi all,
Wondering if anyone has checked St Peter ad Vincular Gt Coggeshall burials for any of the children of William (c1745) and Elizabeth Harris? Unfortunately the burial transcripts on the Coggeshall Museum site start at 1811 which is too late for my purpose.
I'm interested in two particular children of theirs:-
Robert born 31 Mar 1777 and baptised 27 April 1777.
Sarah born 24 Mar 1782 and baptised 19 Apr 1782.
Both baptised at St Peter ad Vincular, Gt Coggeshall.
As you know Smudwhisk found three children of a William and Elizabeth Harris all baptised 30 Jan 1816 at St Peter ad Vincular.
Samuel born Dec 1789.
Robert born 17 Sep 1795.
Sarah Anne 21 Sep 1798.
What I'm trying to get clear in my mind is:-
1) Are the parents of the three children baptised in 1816 also the same William and Elizabeth Harris as the William (c1745) and Elizabeth Harris who are parents of Robert born 1777 and Sarah born 1782.
or
2) Is the William Harris born 1768, sibling of the Robert born 1777 and Sarah 1782, the father of the three children baptised in 1816. Although I couldn't find a marriage for William born 1768 in the Coggeshall Museum transcripts he could have married an Elizabeth in another parish and then brought his bride to Coggeshall.
I'm inclined to think option 2 is more likely as I found a marriage in St Peter ad Vincular Marriage Register for Robert Harris to Elizabeth Snellock 12 Sep 1795. The thought struck me that it is just possible that the Robert Harris who married Elizabeth Snellock is not the son of either the William Harrises I've mentioned above but from another Harris family.
The aim of it all is to correctly identify which William and Elizabeth Harris are the parents of Samuel born Dec 1789 and baptised 30 Jan 1816.
Any thoughts, comments etc welcome.
Thanks and regards
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Findem put out a request for further help and received the following interesting reply. The group member from that site found a newspaper article relating Samuel and Amelia's Peninsular adventures:
Chelmsford Chronicle, 25 April 1879,
'The death is reported, at Coggeshall, of a Waterloo heroine, named Amelia Harris. She was the wife of an officer's servant, and appears to have passed through the campaign which culminated in Waterloo. On the eve of the battle she slept on the field with her son, who is still alive. The morning following the first day of the battle she and her husband breakfasted upon raw meat, seated upon a dead horse and surrounded by the slain. Mrs. Harris retained her faculties to the last.'
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Hi Rachel,
Gave me a surprise when I read your latest post, thought for a minute I'd had a senior's moment and forgot to post the Chelmsford Chronicle report on here, then checking back I found I had posted it on this topic Monday 16th June (reply #36). phew! ;D
I guess the fact that the Chelmsford Chronicle only mentions "son" instead of sons is a just an error on their part.
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Well, me and my intuitive leaps suggests that the Chronicle got the story from John Harris (my 2x great grandfather). He is mentioned as being alive in 1879 which fits my findings (John Harris 1814ish-1890). I think he related a memory or family story to the reporter and it was from John's perspective that the anecdote was related.
Samuel appears to have perhaps been an early batsman of sorts so I am curious as to whether he wore a military uniform in that role.
Rachel
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Ugh! Somehow, I never got an update from Rootschat as I usually do when posts are added to a thread I have participated in. Or perhaps I did and deleted the notification in error. My apologies for repeating Findem's discovery.
My thanks as usual to everyone participating in the discussion. :)
Rachel
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Hi Rachel,
If as the Chelmsford Chronicle states Samuel was an "Officer's Servant" he might have been just a civilian not a Batman who would be a soldier and have a uniform, just depends how accurate the Chronicle's terminology was or the info they received.
Had he been a Batman and therefore a soldier he would have fought and so should have been on the Medal Roll Index.
It's worth remembering that the person who did a search of enlistments for any Samuel Harris couldn't find one with a Coggeshall place of birth and without finding what regiment he served with (if he did) there's no telling what uniform he would have worn.
Regards.
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Thanks as always Findem :)
Now, another cousin of ours is playing catch-up on this thread and requested that I post the following which I am very happy to do for her:
@ Rachel.....I printed off all the posts from the Roots Chat conversation re Harris Family Bible....and have slowly been working through it and adding the info to my tree. I can't join in the conversation as I can't find my diary with the password. ( Everything is in boxes at the moment as we have been having some flooring put down) Anyway, on the 10th March a James D commented that his wife's grandfather. Leonard Walter Harris b 1891 was a son of John Turner Harris and Emma Jepp.....trouble is John died in 1882! I found Leonard in the 1901 census as a little boy living with his sister, Alice in Portsmouth but John and Emma never had a daughter called Alice so Leonard can't be a son of Emma and John Harris. Can you put this on Rootschat, please?
Consider the request done :)
PS... she adds:
Fantastic! I have actually just found a 1891 census for widow Emma Harris nee Jepp. It does list an Alice as a daughter aged 9 so she was born the year her father died but there is no way that Leonard Walter Harris is a child of Emma and John.
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Hi Rachel,
"10th March a James D commented that his wife's grandfather. Leonard Walter Harris b 1891 was a son of John Turner Harris and Emma Jepp.....trouble is John died in 1882!"
There's a lot of dodgy info out there in Cyberspace, quite a bit of it because some people patch a tree together with info gleaned from one tree and other bits from different trees, without verifying the info in PRs etc.
Quite a few years back one person on G R had one of my Willis ancestors married to a lady in Devon (name in Devon spelt Wills) and two in Essex, one correctly, he had children with all three but the baptisms of children of the three wives overlapped! All I can say is, if he could have manged three wives and three families, he's a better man than me. The lady in question was a Uni student so one can assume she wasn't brain dead, she did admit to getting info from other trees, I checked a few months ago and the error remains. :o ;D
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I "always" try and be sensitive to these issues as I believe questions of identity are at stake. Nonetheless, I always strive to correct genealogical errors I make when I am confronted with better evidence. Truth is a value I hold high but unfortunately, inaccuracies are inevitable when dealing with historical gaps, gaffs and insufficient data. :)
Rachel
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What I'm trying to get clear in my mind is:-
1) Are the parents of the three children baptised in 1816 also the same William and Elizabeth Harris as the William (c1745) and Elizabeth Harris who are parents of Robert born 1777 and Sarah born 1782.
or
2) Is the William Harris born 1768, sibling of the Robert born 1777 and Sarah 1782, the father of the three children baptised in 1816. Although I couldn't find a marriage for William born 1768 in the Coggeshall Museum transcripts he could have married an Elizabeth in another parish and then brought his bride to Coggeshall.
I'm inclined to think option 2 is more likely as I found a marriage in St Peter ad Vincular Marriage Register for Robert Harris to Elizabeth Snellock 12 Sep 1795. The thought struck me that it is just possible that the Robert Harris who married Elizabeth Snellock is not the son of either the William Harrises I've mentioned above but from another Harris family.
The aim of it all is to correctly identify which William and Elizabeth Harris are the parents of Samuel born Dec 1789 and baptised 30 Jan 1816.
Any thoughts, comments etc welcome.
Thanks and regards
Hi findem
I think there were two William and Elizabeth Harris in Coggeshall. There is an adult baptism in 1811 of Elizabeth Harris widow aged 66 years. See post no. 20 on this previous thread - http://www.rootschat.com/links/016j7/.
From memory when I was having a look through the Coggeshall registers the other week the later William and Elizabeth had children baptised up to 1803 so the 1816 baptisms could well be the later couple's children. Again from memory up until 1803 I think there was a fairly regular baptism of children every few years so the 1811 Elizabeth adult baptism isn't going to be the mother of those children as she would be too old. That said, it seems strange some were baptised late if it is the same couple. Needs double checking though.
Hope this helps.
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smudwhisk do you know if Witham's Register's Office would have marriage records from 1830 and earlier?
If we could find (purchase) Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner's marriage record we would likely gain access to the Fathers' names and occupations.
My 2x great grandfather John Harris (suspected brother to Joseph) was married there. Also, my instincts lead me to believe that Emma Harris and Joseph Turner were also married at the Witham Office. Fortunately, we have a record for them so I will see to ordering it and get some confirmation.
Rachel
PS. My great grandfather was named Samuel George Leonard Harris which lends some faint support to the notion of a George Harris connection (his grandfather?)
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I believe Register Office marriages only started in 1837 with GRO Registration.
However, you won't find any father's names on marriages prior to 1837. This came in with registration in July of that year. Prior to that, if one or other of the parties was under the age of 21 years (and admitted to it, unlike many), it may say that consent was given by a parent (and occasionally you may find the parent actually named, but it can be the mother).
That said, I'm sure somewhere it has already said that Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner married at Pattiswick in 1831 which will be in the parish registers there. ???
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Hi,
You're right on three counts Smudwhisk:
1) Registration stated in 1837 and became mandatory I think 1874 or 5?
2) Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner married 24 May 1831 at St Mary the Virgin Pattiswick, I sourced that from the ERO but haven't noted their fathers names, I don't think the names were given but it could be an oversight on my part, it was sourced on a trip back to Essex in my very early days of research.
3) I'm now sure there was a second William and Elizabeth Harris and I think that most likely, as do you Smudwhisk, that the three children baptised in 1816 belong to this second William and Elizabeth Harris.
Further I suspect strongly that the second William Harris is William Harris born 13 Nov 1768,the son of William Harris and Elizabeth Hoy. I have looked on the Coggeshall Museum Marriage Transcripts, Free Reg and Family Search for the marriage of the William born 1768, (Essex wide search) but without success. I am wondering what Feering, next door to Coggeshall might turn up, many years ago I noticed some Harris people there. I have requested a lookup in Boyd's Marriage Index books by someone who will be visiting the ERO soon for any William Harris to an Elizabeth between 1786 & 1792 in Essex.
I found some children of a William (1768?) and Elizabeth Harris on Free Reg, all born and baptised at Coggeshall, seven children in total. Starting with Elizabeth born 23 Dec 1791 and finishing in 1803 as you thought Smudwhisk, Bridget born 20 Feb 1803, I have the birth and baptism dates for all seven children if anyone wants them.
Also on Free Reg I found the following children of George Harris. all Coggeshall born and baptised:
Sarah of George & Ann born 20 Apr 1781 bap 20 May 1781.
Elizabeth of George & Elizabeth born 2 Sep 1785 bap 17 Sep 1796.
We know that George Harris married Ann Richold 26 Dec 1780 but I couldn't find a marriage between a George Harris and an Elizabeth on the three sites mentioned before. Couldn't check for a burial for Ann Harris nee Richold because unfortunately the burials start at 1811 on the Coggeshall Museum transcripts..
I did a search on free Reg of a few Coggeshall marriages I have and none were found so it seems Free Reg might not have any Coggeshall marriages.
Regards.
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Thank you both--- so, progress is being made but how to connect it all. Do the dates work in such a way that George and Anne and William and Elizabeth could be related as siblings or cousins?
I would be interested in the children's dates --- at least I'll have them and later see if they can fit into the family tree.
Rachel
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There isn't a marriage of a William and Elizabeth Harris between 1786 and 1792 on Boyds as I've had a look. That said, Boyds is not very good post 1700 anyway. I believe that Essex RO have a copy of Jack Baxter's Essex Marriage Index which does cover that period so that would be a better resource to be searched in. I believe he does still do postal lookups at £1 per marriage.
I've had a quick look at Feering, there are no Harris baptisms in there between 1804 and 1812. I've also checked Markshall and Bradwell and nothing there in that period either. There are though some Harris in Kelvedon
John Harris baptised 11 Aug 1805 to John and Phebe Harris late Edwards
James Harris baptised 6 Oct 1805 to William and Elizabeth Harris late Tatum
George Harris baptised 4 Oct 1807 to William and Elizabeth Harris late Tatum
Samuel Harris baptised 15 Sept 1811 to William and Sarah Harris late Johnson
Sarah Harris baptised 10 Apr 1814 to William and Sarah Harris, of this parish, shoemaker
Ann Harris baptised 2 Jun 1816 to William and Sarah Harris, of this parish, shoemaker
Julia Harris baptised 11 Apr 1819 to William and Sarah Harris, of this parish, shoemaker
George Henry Harris baptised 18 Sept 1831 to John and Elizabeth Harris, of this parish, bricklayer
George Harris baptised 15 Sept 1833 to James and Sarah Harris, of this parish, labourer
James Cutts Harris and Eliza Sophia Harris baptised 16 Aug 1835 to John and Elizabeth Harris, of this parish, bricklayer
Henry Harris baptised 31 Jul 1836 to James and Sarah Harris, of this parish, labourer
William Harris baptised 8 Dec 1839 to James and Sarah Harris, of this parish, shoemaker
Looked for baptism from 1763 to 1841 as I was look through the register for other names.
Burial in Kelvedon:
26 Nov 1809 Elizabeth Harris wife of William 29 years
So that's another William and Elizabeth Harris in the area as she is too young to be the mother of the other children in Coggeshall.
In any case, they married in Kelvedon:
2 May 1805 William Harris single man and Elizabeth Tatum single woman were married by banns, both signed, witnesses James Hooper, Ann Osborn.
And William's second marriage is also in Kelvedon:
19 Mar 1811 William Harris widower and Sarah Johnson single woman, both of this parish, he signed, she made her mark. Witnesses Samuel Johnson, William Osborn, Ann Osborn.
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In light of the fact there are Harris families in the immediate area, can I suggest someone takes out a short subscription to SEAX and goes through the registers from the surrounding parishes (and not just those immediately bordering Coggeshall) transcribing all Harris entries. You may then actually make some headway instead of just relying on secondary source material. ;D ;D
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Thank you Smudwisk as always. :)
Rachel
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Hi everyone---
I have been in touch with a relative much more knowledgeable than I am in all this:
She tells me William and Elizabeth are Samuels parents (born 1789). Samuel (the one at Waterloo) is listed as a fishmonger on son John's wedding licence and the William who accompanies the 3 children to the 1816 baptism is a Fisherman by occupation--- so I guess it was a family trade.
My cousin listed June 30 1816 as the baptism date but Findem had January 30. I don't have access to the records myself so wondering which is the correct date?
Of course, this means that George Harris and wife, Ann Richold are out and William (the fisherman) and Elizabeth are in for my family line.
Rachel
Edit--- looked over a past note and Smudwhisk stated June when she first brought this couple to our attention :)
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Found the Joseph Harris Lucy Turner marriage banns --- no parental names BUT Joseph TURNER signs as a witness.
I purchased a SEAX subscription so I can try and help nail things down
Rachel
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Sorry, January would be a typo error (mine), I have 30 June 1816 in my records.
I thought finding the name of Joseph Harris's father in the banns entry would be too much to hope for. ;D
Regards.
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So sorry Findem--- I would love to get this nailed down conclusively.
Rachel
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I don't know what you're sorry for Rachel, it was my stupid mistake. ::) ;D
I'll try and get my tree info which you asked for out to you today.
regards,
PS Hang on my brain has just kicked in and I realise you were sorry Joseph's father's name wasn't on the Banns, der.
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I am busy adding records to my family tree from SEAX I just saw that Sarah Harris daughter of William and Elizabeth nee Hoy married John Cheek and this generated 21 connections with many familiar Ancestry member names :)
You and Smudwhisk both have great research skills!
Rachel
PS --- yes, this is what I meant re: sorry :)
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I'm hoping to get stuck into the SEAX Essex Ancestors sometime soon, now that we are getting the colder weather the grass growth should slow down and give me more time.
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I took some screenshots of some of the SEAX baptism records--- are these allowed to be posted?
Basically a look at the June 30 1816 Coggeshall Baptisms list 3 Harris children that day:
William and Sarah--- children of Robert Harris and wife Sarah, nee Snellock
and
Samuel Harris son of William and Elizabeth Harris
I cannot find a baptism on that date for Robert b. 1777
Rachel
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Basically a look at the June 30 1816 Coggeshall Baptisms list 3 Harris children that day:
William and Sarah--- children of Robert Harris and wife Sarah, nee Snellock
and
Samuel Harris son of William and Elizabeth Harris
Woops, well it just shows its best to check original sources rather than rely on transcripts from others. We all make mistakes occasionally. ;D ;D
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Welcome to the Human League lol...
Seriously, Smudwhisk, if I had half your researching prowess 99% of my family tree would be "accurately" completed by now!
I am extremely thankful for all the effort you have put into helping us solve the various family tree puzzles we have presented.
Your friend in Canada
Rachel :)
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Wow, that's good work Rachel, puts a different complexion on things, to my way of thinking, now that two of the three 1816 children, William & Sarah, belong to Robert & Sarah, I think that we can assume that Samuel Dec 1789 belongs to William Harris and Elizabeth Hoy.
What do you think, anyone?
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Hello, my name is Ria en i both a national family bible, with the name of James M Harris, Phoebe M. Harris, Reginald M. Harris, i can send you a photo if you want. Kind regards, Ria The Netherlands.
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Hi Ria,
I have just checked all my Harris families and I don't have a James, Phoebe or a Reginald in any of them, a bit surprising really because James is quite a common name and most of my other name branches have at least one James in them but not one James in any of the Harris families. :o ;D
I would be very interested to see a photo or scan image of the names.
Are you related in any way to a Harris?
Regards.
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Good morning, if you send my your e-mail i can send you pfoto's friendship to Ria Kooistra, . (or can i post on this site some photo's ?
Kind regards
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Hi Ria,
I will send you my email address but first you need to have to make one more post before you can use the RootsChat Personal Message (PM) system, there is a rule which states a person has to make 3 posts on RootsChat before they can use the PM system.
All you need to do is reply to this post of mine, just the word OK will do, then you will have made 3 posts.
You can post photos on here if you can work out how to do it but it will probably be easier by email.
Regards.
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OKE :)
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Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner.
I have read a post mentioning that Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner had a child Eliza Harris who married Arthur Mayhew. I have these two people in my family tree and have actually come to a still stand reseaching them. My Arthur and Eliza married october 1863. Arthur born 1842 and Eliza born 1843 Ferring Essex. It maybe that my birth for Eliza is wrong. It would be wonderful if these were my relatives. My question do any of you have proof that your Eliza, daughter of Lucy an Joseph married Arthur Mayhew?
thanks Kaye
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To continue from my previous posting, and to make 3 postings in total Authur Mayhew and Eliza Harris (Eliza born from Lucy Turner and Joseph Harris) are my 2nd great grandparents.
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And to make my third post my family that I am chasing Eliza Harris and Auther Mayhew b 1842 and married 10 oct 1863.
I have seen my family bible that gives the wedding date of Arthur and Eliza on this date. So that is right. When I look at the census of 1871 it gives the birthplace of Eliza as Feering, Essex and not Coggeshall. There is another Eliza Harris born in Feering in 1843 which I thought was my Eliza. But I have read here that Eliza Harris married to Arthur Mayhew was born in Coggeshall. Therefore I am enquiring for any information that could help me sort this out.
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Hi Kayelesley,
Not sure why but I haven't received previous Rootschat notification of your posts on this topic, this one you posted today is the first I've received notification of.
Eliza Harris daughter of Joseph Harris and his wife Lucy Turner was baptised 7 March 1841 at Great Coggeshall, St Peter ad Vincular, C of E Church.
My record of Eliza's marriage to Arthur Mayhew shows the date simply as Dec 1863, this makes me think that I got that reference from Free BMD marriage certificate index, which therefore would see the marriage registered in the Dec quarter of 1863. If as I think I got the details from Free BMD then that's where the reference to the groom being Arthur Mayhew would come from.
I will check it out in a while
I think I might be able to confirm the date and place if it's a Coggeshall marriage, after I've got a couple of chores done I'll check it out and post the details here. I'll reply to your PM a little later in the day.
Regards.
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10 Oct 1863
Kelvedon
Arthur Mayhew, of full age, single man, labourer, of this parish, son of James, labourer
Eliza Harris, 20 years, of this parish, daughter of William, sawyer
both signed, witnesses James Mayhew, Mary Ann (x) Mayhew
From the original on Seax, the date and place are on familysearch.
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Hi Kayelesley,
Well having had time for my brain to catch up with the rest of me I'm pretty sure that the info regarding Eliza Harris marrying an Arthur Mayhew came from my mother who of course would in turn have heard it from her mother, I can't be 100% sure but I'm pretty confident that where the names came from. As for the date Dec (quarter) 1863, that I would have sourced from Free BMD, I noted that you quoted Oct 1863, how did you narrow the month down to October?
I did go to the Coggeshall Museum's online Marriage Transcripts to check the marriage forgetting that it only covers to 1851 so no help there.
Joseph Harris husband of Lucy Turner was a Miller. if Eliza and Arthur's marriages certificate shows her father's name as Joseph and his occupation a Miller, that would be proof enough, I feel, that Eliza wife of Arthur is the daughter of Joseph and Lucy Harris.
You could of course search the Coggeshall marriages in the Essex Records Office's online Essex Ancestors but I'm not sure whether the Coggeshall Parish Marriage Register would give you as much pertinent info as the marriage certificate.
Regards.
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You could of course search the Coggeshall marriages in the Essex Records Office's online Essex Ancestors but I'm not sure whether the Coggeshall Parish Marriage Register would give you as much pertinent info as the marriage certificate.
It will provide the same information as the GRO marriage certificate because the GRO entry is a copy of the one from the parish register.
Joseph Harris husband of Lucy Turner was a Miller. if Eliza and Arthur's marriages certificate shows her father's name as Joseph and his occupation a Miller, that would be proof enough, I feel, that Eliza wife of Arthur is the daughter of Joseph and Lucy Harris.
If you see my previous post, Eliza wife of Arthur Mayhew's father was William NOT Joseph as per the details from SEAX.
Obviously if you doubt my accuracy, I suggest viewing the original on SEAX. ;D
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Oops, I should have read Smudwhisk's reply before I posted my reply, thanks for that info Smudwhisk, I'll delete Arthur from my Records.
Looks like my memory played tricks with me, must have got the marriage info from a contact some time.
The fact that Coggeshall was also in the Witham Registry District didn't help.
Thanks also to Kayelesley for bringing the marriage up otherwise I might not have corrected the error, fortunately in my tree Eliza Harris is only a sibling of an ancestor so the marriage error is an annoyance not a disaster. ;D
Regards.