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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Nottinghamshire => Topic started by: babygirl101 on Saturday 24 January 09 15:23 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone possible find Eliza for me - she's gone missing!!!
My great grandmother was born Eliza Smith 30 May 1876, Caunton, d/o Hawthorn & Lydia Smith, she appears on the 1881 census, correctly aged 5 with her parents and living in Edingley.
In 1895 she has produced a son - Joseph Markham Smith who appears on the 1901 census as living with his grandparents Hawthorn & Lydia.
Eliza next appears on the 1901 census working as a servant in Beckingham. The census return gives her correct age and place of birth.
By 1903 she has married Joseph Bower and they're both on the 1911 census, again she has given her birthplace as Caunton and her age is correct.
So where on earth was she for the 1891 census, if I can find her, maybe it will help with trying find Josephs father who was missing from his birth certificate.
I'm wondering if the father was possibly a Markham or if that was just a name she picked at random. It has been suggested that Eliza was possibly in a workhouse in Markham and that's where Josephs middle name came from - not sure on that, or how to find out either
Any suggestions gratefully received on this one, as I'm completely stumped ??? ???
Many thanks
BG :)
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It would appear that he was illegitimate and theyoften "invented" fathers names.
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Hmm, I rather suspect you're right on that one as I've looked for the surname Markham, nothing even vaguely possible as far as I can tell. I'm more systified by where she's disappeared to, I feel she can't have gone far away.
I've asked my gran about her but she can't recall anything more about Elizas life than I've already pieced together.
BG :)
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I cant find her as Eliza or Elizabeth Smith b 1876 Nottingham on the 1891.
Maybe she is living under a different name. :-\
Do you have her birth cert to see if she was Eliza or Elizabeth ???
Any clues on her marriage if you have it. ??? fi so where did she marry ???
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these situations are really tough - she deffo isnt using Caunton or a similar spelling as her PoB ...
even if you find a lass of the right age in Service etc, she may well have been 'given' the PoB of the parish she was in in 1891 by the Householder not knowing any other facts ...
you really need something else to Id her, but in my experience, unless she has an unusual name etc you've had it :(
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Cant disagree with you there,
I doubt even if in 1891 she would be living with the father of her illegitimate child as he was not born until 1895 .
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I must admit this one's proving to be impossible. Her birth certificate shows her as born 30th May 1876 Caunton - Eliza Smith d/o Hawthorn Smith.
Her marriage certificate shows her as Eliza Smith, spinster, d/o Hawthorn Smith - 20th July 1903 at Edingley Parish Church.
It looks as if she never really left the area - so I'm beginning to think that for some reason she was missed off the 1891 census - there doesn't seem to be any other option.
BG :'(
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sadly there are many other options - mistran / wrong PoB / wrong relationship etc .... as I said earlier, w/o something more unique to ID her, its a tough one.
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sadly there are many other options - mistran / wrong PoB / wrong relationship etc .... as I said earlier, w/o something more unique to ID her, its a tough one.
Oh well, I'll keep searching, maybe she'll turn up eventually. Many thanks for checking for me, at least I now know I'm not missing the obvious.
BG :)
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There is a Betsy Smith aged 16 single a servant living at Marnham, Nottingham in 1891 but it gives born Balderton . :(
RG12/2642/60/9
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This looks like a definite possibility doesn't it - although as always proving it seems highly unlikely. I wonder why she changed her name and PoB, seems inconsistent with the rest of her life somehow.
Now my mind's working overtime - I wonder if her illegitimate child could be the son of the Joseph that was also working there, it would sort of be an obvious leap of faith??? or maybe/probably completely wrong ??? It might explain why she named the child Joseph Markham (slight change from Marnham to make it less obvious) - any thoughts on that one???
BG :)
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Hi BG,
Its not really a change of name Elizabeth has so many variations, Eliza, Betty, Betsy, Beth , Liz, Lizzie the list goes on. ::)
wonder if her illegitimate child could be the son of the Joseph that was also working there
I think thats a distinct possibiity they usually named them after the father when they were illegitimate, I would just keep an open mind until you are able to... if at all to find anything to substanciate this.
t might explain why she named the child Joseph Markham (slight change from Marnham to make it less obvious) - any thoughts on that one???
My answer to that one is the same as before, anything is possible, see if thats any help. :-\
I will try and find out where Balderton is in relation to Caunton.
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Trust me, I keep a very open mind on these things, especially where the Smiths were concerned, there are so many of them and they keep changing their names etc, the relationships amongst the gypsies is complex to say the least, hehe!! To date though, Eliza has been the most straightforward of them with the exception of this piece of the jigsaw, especially as she's stuck with Eliza throughout the census returns - maybe she just fancied a change?
Balderton is near Newark and about 17 miles from Edingley, Elizas family home, and 12 miles from her PoB, so it's feasible that, for some reason Balderton was given as her PoB.
BG :)
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Yes Smiths are a nightmare my husband has them in his family ::)
As she was in service it may be that her employers called her that, especially if there was already an Eliza in the household
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Poor hubby!!! I thought with names like Bower and Crowder it would be easy to research, but a couple of generations back and we start with the Smiths - my heart sank!!
The sounds quite possible. Any suggestions as to how I could verify any of these leaps of faith as I can't begin to think how on earth I can prove any of this?
BG
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We could try to trace this Betsy in 1901 to elminate her but of course she may have married but I will take a look later.
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Just tried the 1901 census and there's nothing that immediately jumps out as being her, but as you say she could have married, so I'll try looking at marriages next.
BG :)
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There is an Eliza Smith age 15 domestic servant her birth place is given as "Cleton" although looking at the page it is very difficult to work out. She is with the Kirk family at Hucknall Torkard.
There is another one aged 16 living in Sneinton with her 17 yr old sister Clara .Both born Nottingham.
Another Elizabeth Smith aged 16 born Sutton- a few villages away from Caunton- living as a domestic servant in Newark with a Smith family.
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Are these on the 1891 or 1901 census so I can look them up, please?
BG :)
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I've just found the Elizabeth, Newark on 1901, but she's married so I don't think it's her somehow, I'll check out the rest
BG
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1891 census
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Hi BG
There is an Eliza Smith age 15 domestic servant her birth place is given as "Cleton" although looking at the page it is very difficult to work out. She is with the Kirk family at Hucknall Torkard.
This is the 1891 RG12/2674/37/20
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Eliza definitely isn't Betsy! Betsy appears in 1901 and 1911 always born in Balderton but living elsewhere, whislt Eliza was in other places in those censi.
Trawled through 2000 Smiths last night and still no sibn of Eliza!
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Well done and welcome to Rootschat :)
Thank you for your time in eliminating her :)
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Eliza definitely isn't Betsy! Betsy appears in 1901 and 1911 always born in Balderton but living elsewhere, whislt Eliza was in other places in those censi.
Trawled through 2000 Smiths last night and still no sibn of Eliza!
Oh bless you, thank you so much for trying, what a sterling effort, it's a bit mind blowing isn't it hehe!!!
BG :)
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Hi BG
There is an Eliza Smith age 15 domestic servant her birth place is given as "Cleton" although looking at the page it is very difficult to work out. She is with the Kirk family at Hucknall Torkard.
This is the 1891 RG12/2674/37/20
Thank you for that ref - well I've looked at this one, zoomed in and zoomed out, looked at it upsidedown and back to front and decided that it says Selston which makes me eliminate it as a possible option, don't know why it just doesn't feel right for some reason, but once again thank you some much for trying. She's becoming my worst nightmare >:( Oh well, the quest goes on. I'm rapidly thinking the little madam went AWOL on census day!!
BG :'(
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There is an Eliza Smith age 15 domestic servant her birth place is given as "Cleton" although looking at the page it is very difficult to work out. She is with the Kirk family at Hucknall Torkard.
There is another one aged 16 living in Sneinton with her 17 yr old sister Clara .Both born Nottingham.
Another Elizabeth Smith aged 16 born Sutton- a few villages away from Caunton- living as a domestic servant in Newark with a Smith family.
I've tried the one in Sneinton, but again I don't think that's her as it mentions her sister Clara, as far as I can tell there was never a Clara in the family and I don't think Eliza worked in the lace mnfr trade.
Oh well, I think we'll have to draw a line under this one, but many thanks to everyone who's painstakingly searched for her.
BG
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Seeing as you're drawing a line under this one, thought I'd add another theory. ;)
Have you tried looking for Markham as a forename and not a surname? There's a few Markham's in the Nottingham area in 1891. There's one, Markham Bailey, in Radford, who has a 15 year old daughter who is a cigar maker. Doing a search for an Eliza Smith in Radford there is one boarding with a family surnamed Bamer (?) who's age and birthplace is out (born c.1873 Radford, but she could have just been dittoed along with the rest of the family), and who is a cigar maker.
Interestingly, Markham Bailey's wife is an Esther in 1881 and 1901, but a Henrietta in 1891.
Do you have any idea what Eliza's occupation was at the time?
Jo.
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Jo
It's feasible, just as some of the other suggestions are, which makes me think I'll never find out for sure.
Where I'm struggling is that Eliza has maintained her PoB on all the other census returns, along with her name - Eliza.
Her parents Hawthorn Smith & Lydia Ingleton/Smith (d/o Eliza Ingleton who was married to Robert Smith, s/o Robert & Evening Smith) settled and remained in Caunton/Edingley, until they died, so I can't see why Eliza would travel so far away from her extended family at the age of 15.
I know that she had a son Joseph Markham Smith in 1895 (my gran knew him, so I know that's factually accurate) and have been told that there were rumours that Joseph was the illegitimate son of the local blacksmith, so I've also been checking out blacksmiths for each of the suggestions made and again no luck - this of course may just be hearsay.
I was also been told earlier this week that a relative of Josephs recalls going with Joseph to visit someone he called ' granny Clark', who apparently bought him up, although the 1901 shows him living with Elizas parents, so, as yet I can't find anything to substantiate that piece of information.
She's proving to be a complete pain the ****
BG :'( :'( :'( :'(
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I am getting heartliy sick of Great Grandma Eliza! How can she just disappear. Sadly she is now right under my skin and I am determined to find her in 1891! She has to be around somewhere. I have even taken to talking to her Daughter in Laws wedding ring to get an answer :(. How sad am I.
I have just come across a distant relative who has done loads of work around the family in Edingley so a letter to him is next on the cards.
Thanks everyone who is trying to help.
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Cheryl
You're getting seriously sad, but then so am I, let me know if you have any luck, I'm putting this to one side for a while before "our Eliza" drives me totally nuts hehe!!!
BG ;D
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Hi, Your quest intrigued me and I have also looked in vain, reading further postings, I realise I was on the same line with finding their marriage in 1880. So could Eliza be in mothers maiden name? In 1871 Hawthorn and 'Lidd' are in Leicestershire in a Gipsy cart, Lidd was declared as his unmarried sister,both of Skillington, she was probably pregnant with Robert who was born in Leic. (? ) - birthplaces varies with nearly each census, good job his name is unusual! Not so for you with Eliza. In 1861 Hawthorne is with parents in Glasgow, birth Glasgow for all. in 1851 with family in Lanarkshire. Could she be visiting one of them? Might explain why not showing up. Who else in the family is not there in 1891? There are other Hawthorne Smiths - could she be with extended family on either side?
Would granny Clark have any bearing on her brother Clark ?
I cannot find Lydia in 1861, or her birth in the partial index or free BMD. Happy hunting......Ruth
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Thank you so much for your reply and welcome to the mad house, we all seem to spend an eternity looking for missing dead people here - Eliza being the bane of my life right now hehe!!!
The general opinion about Eliza is that she's disappeared into a black hole somewhere, along with many others of the same family - very much a gipsy trait I'm afraid. I keep finding people on one census then losing them for 10/20 years and then up they pop again, using a slightly different name, PoB slightly different and age - well that's anyones guess - I think they just made it up as they went along - bless!!! lol.
You're quite correct about Hawthorn & Tidd (or Lidd) in 1871, they're not brother and sister as shown, Lidd being a variation on Lydia, his wife. Sadly though, this Hawthorn was very much born and bred in England as was Lydia. I've had a look at your suggestion of Glasgow, but sadly it's not them.
Lydia is on Free BMD, but again, as if to confuse she's on the March 1/4 1853 as Lydia Smith Cox, apparently Robert her father also couldn't make up his mind and used both Cox & Smith as it suited, but her mother was Eliza Ingleton who definitely married a Robert Smith - it says so on her marriage certificate - phew!!
As for where Lydia was in 1861 - well now you've reminded me I'd better start looking for her again - although I half suspect she's also in another black hole!!
Best Wishes and many thanks for your help and interest
BG :)
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Hi
I have given up on Eliza in 1881. She is my great grandmother. I know exactly where she was in the other censuses. Eliza Ingleton married Hawthorn (Orthorn) Smith and they settled in Edingley, Nottinghamshire, where they brought up 8 children, Eliza being just one of them.
The Granny Clark mystery still remains, but it is possible she was a neighbour of Hawthorn and Lydia. One of their children, my Great Aunt Beatrice boarded with another family close by and their neighbour was Mary Ann Clark. She had a grand daughter of roughly the same age so Granny Clark may have been a "courtesy" title.
Lydia is Lida in the 1861 census see below
1861 England Census
about Robert Smith
Name: Robert Smith
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Robert
Mother's Name: Liza
Gender: Male
Where born: Melton, Leicestershire, England
Civil Parish: Melton Mowbray
County/Island: Leicestershire
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage: .
Registration district: Melton Mowbray
Sub registration district: Melton Mowbray
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 185
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Smith 30
Liza Smith 30
Robert Smith 3
Lida Smith 8
George Dennis 16
By the way both Lydia and Hawhorn are buried at st Giles Church,Edingley, Notts
Are you researching this family? They all stayed local to Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire as far as I can see. You will find loads more info here in Rootschat... look out for posts by BabyGirl! She has tremendous knowledge of the family on the Smith side.
Cheryl
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Thanks BG got there almost before you on this one. Yoou posted as I wrote.
Cheryl :P
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Great minds eh Cheryl lol ;D
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Hi, Sorry, thought Rob and Liz Smith were Hawthornes parents.
No I'm not researching them but have some family from Caunton / Beesthorpe who am struggling with Mary Jebb circa 1787, who married John Snodin. I can't find her parents or his. He was of Southwell at marriage, but caanot find birth there. I keep returning to knaw at it.
I do enjoy trying to solve the puzzle of them, but........ hey ho.Ruth
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Ruth
Again, thank you for trying, they're such a complicated lot, both myself and Cheryl (who's also looking for the same people) frequently manage to get them mixed up.
Anyway, not sure if you already have this :-
John Snodin married Mary Jebb 21st Aug 1808 at Caunton.
There's a baptism for a Mary Jebb on IGI, she's a bit older than I was expecting, so I'm not sure if it's the right one:-
13th March 1782, Flintham parents William & Ann
I can't find anything at all though for John, maybe someone else could take a look. I've tried IGI and Notts FHS records, but others may have other sources.
Hope that helps a little and once agian thanks for your help with Eliza.
BG :)
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Hi, just lost all my reply! Try again. Brilliant, I had looked at LDS but they have put more online. I had not realised - is it an ongoing project?
Yes, it quite possibly is her, she said 21 on marriage bond, but thats often put or full age, so.....
I saw and held the bond at Nottm archives, amazing the feel of 200 yrs ago. Witnesses were James Jebb, Millicent Jebb and George Shoemaker who was fellow bondsman.
I cannot find any info on 'Melicents' birth, in 1841 she ticks born Notts, and in Notts, she has Marys daughter, as Mary has died. Millie dies before 1851 census can give me help. Millie married in Derby, had no known children. That side has links with Derby, so unsure which Jebbs she was for sure.
Good luck with Eliza, I have 2 Eliza Smiths and struggle with one. Never mind her fathers 3 wives, he also travelled alot with work. I know how hard it is locating moving Smiths!
Cheers R
:D
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No idea if there's any connection, but feel that there must be - I've found the marriage of 2 James Jebbs in Caunton, thought they might be of help:-
1. Mary Bralsford 4.10.1778
2. Elizabeth Blackney 3.4.1877
plus
Tracey Jebb m. John Pears 2.5.1798
Matha Jebb m. Lodge Richmond 2.11.1810
As for the Smith family, seriously don't go there unless you want to give up the rest of your life lol, complicated doesn't even begin to describe the family connections there.
Hope this helps
BG :)
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Is your Eliza Smith b: 1876 Caunton actually Elizabeth May Smith baptised Caunton 10 Nov 1878? Father William & Harriet Smith of Beesthorpe Hall Lodge. Father's profession: gardener.
My interest is the Jebb's of Beesthorpe/Caunton.
Regards, Dave
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Hello Dave, Thank you. I'm about sorted on her but my Jebbs / Snodins are still ongoing, I have had contact with you before on Ancesty or Genes. I have assembled some Jebbs into a small tree.
I found Melicent Jebb 1788 who I was chasing, she is very feint on the Caunton baptism microfiche, I must have seen it 3 times before I detected it. Ruth
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Is your Eliza Smith b: 1876 Caunton actually Elizabeth May Smith baptised Caunton 10 Nov 1878? Father William & Harriet Smith of Beesthorpe Hall Lodge. Father's profession: gardener.
My interest is the Jebb's of Beesthorpe/Caunton.
Regards, Dave
Hi no my Eliza is definitely Eliza, born 1876 in Caunton, parents Lydia and Hawthorn Smith. Eliza is my great grandmother, her son Joseph Markham Smith was my father's father. They were gypsies.
Cheryl
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No worries, I sorted her, shes not your Eliza. The remainder was about Millicent who was born in Caunton, Ruth