RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: kneller1980 on Friday 30 January 09 18:21 GMT (UK)
-
hi all, i am new here and not sure if this is the right place but i feel like i am hitting a brick wall slightly.
i've searched all the sites mentioned and not come up with anything :(
I am searching for information about my gr gr grandfather Otto Kneller he was born on the 11th July 1870
in
Kuenzelsau, Stuttgart, Germany.
i am mainly interested in researching his family before he came to England in 1885-as i know very little about his parents and his supposed 16+ siblings :o i know his father was a brewer.
He got Interned during ww1 and got sent back to Germany leaving my gr great nan with 6 kids :( i know he lived until 1969(99 years old) but not sure where he died, i know he had A child with a women in Germany his son was called Hermann Rheinholt(took his mothers surname). And he had 2 children Renate and Roland...though there could be more.
Anyone with any ideas and any information please contact me :)
thanks so very much
Clare.
-
Hi Clare,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
THere is not many german records on the net, but as you have the great advantage, of knowing where in Germany, it means you can write to to the Registry Office (Standesamt) in Germany and ask for a copy of his birth certificate.
Standesamt
Stuttgarter Straße 7
74653 Kuenzelsau
Germany
Do you have the family details on the 1891 and 1901 censuses ?
Bob
-
on ancestry.de (Germany) there is an "Auswanderungsakten" (Emigration record) for Otto Kneller from Künzelsau (or Kuenzelsau
http://search.ancestry.de/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=allgs&gsfn=Ernst&gsln=Kneller&gss=seo&ghc=20&sbo=2&gst=40
Born 11th July 1870 in Kuenzelsau, and emigrated to England in1885.
I don't have a subscription, so I can't see any more details.
Bob
-
Still "fishing" in the net :) :
I've found a brewery (Brauerei)
11a Brauerei zum Erbgroßherzog, Nicolaus Kneller 1845-1876
http://www.klausehm.de/B.html
with a link to a page which, unfortunately doesn't tell you very much, other than that it was in in Baden-Baden. B-B is near Württemberg.
http://www.klausehm.de/Pag18121.html
my german history is shaky there, but Baden was combined with Wurttemberg at some time to give the present-day state of Baden-Württemberg, where Künzelsau is.
-
wow Bob thank you so much for you help :) i'll look at those sights now :)
He isn't on the 1891 or 1901 census...i know he married a Laura Mallett in barrow in furness but he isn't on any census with her and i've searched for her and she's back down as laura Mallett and unmarried of the 1901 census?! ??? He is on the 1911 census and is 'married' (though there are no divorce papers or marriage register for them) to my gr gr nan Eliza Jones living in Swindon, Wilts. with their children...
I know they then moved back to Wolverhampton and she remarried twice more(thus making her married 4 times as she was married to a Maros Smith before Otto).
And then he was interned and sent back to Germany :(
it's very confusing... he was a pork butcher and owned several properties and houses.
i've found an article on the net linking him with textiles and Berlin-with the dates that would tie in with his arrival in germany.
-
Hi Clare,
funny you should say textiles !
I've just found an "online newspaper " report about a KNELLER family in Künzelsau, who are one of the oldest families there (1500's).
(maybe this is the same one you saw ?)
"Born in Künzelsau, Otto Kneller opened a textile factory in Berlin, before moving back to Künzelsau" etc
http://www.stimme.de/hohenlohe/nachrichten/kuenzelsau/sonstige;art1912,1428097
(can you read german ?)
It might be worth asking the paper to put you in touch with the people mentioned.
Or if you can't speak german, I could do it for you.
Bob
-
hiya Bob that is the article i found :) and the names link in as a relative told me he met a lady in Germany on his return and had a son Hermann Rhineholt not kneller...which i thought was strange...and the name Renate is linked as well...apparently she has died tho? i am not sure how old this article is?
I do not speak/read German but to be honest the further i research my tree the more i feel i should learn the language of my ancestors.
I would love you to be able to contact the newspaper for me, this would be very helpful and very much appreciated :)
Thank you so much for taking the time to help me :)
-
I'll write to them, sometime in the next few days ......
Bob
-
Hi Clare,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
THere is not many german records on the net, but as you have the great advantage, of knowing where in Germany, it means you can write to to the Registry Office (Standesamt) in Germany and ask for a copy of his birth certificate.
Standesamt
Stuttgarter Straße 7
74653 Kuenzelsau
Germany
Do you have the family details on the 1891 and 1901 censuses ?
Bob
Hiya again Bob, sorry to be a nuisance but i am composing a letter to send on monday and wondered whether/what fee was involved for a copy of the birth certificate? Any idea?
thanks again Clare.
-
Hi Clare,
It's about 10-15 € but I'm sure they will let you know.
Be sure to write that he is your greatgreatgrandfather as there are rules about only direct descendants having access etc.
Good luck,
Bob
-
Hi Clare,
I'll write to them, sometime in the next few days ......
sorry it took longer than I said, but I have now sent an e-mail to the newspaper.
now we just have to wait ......
Bob
-
Hi Clare,
just had a phone call from a Herr Kneller in Kunzelsau !!!!!
He said that your Otto Kneller is probably some kind of cousin, as he is descended from another Otto Kneller. He has some letters from other Knellers in England and America and he will send me copies within the next few weeks, to pass on to you.
Watch this space :)
Bob
-
Wow Bob, thank you so very very much-that is AMAZING!!! i've wrote to the kunzelsau records office and emailed them so fingers crossed i'll be hearing something back soon.
it did get an email from the Wurttemberg and Baden office...which stated 'The City of Kuenzelsau has copies of the Church records. We have 1 list with KNELLER families, the youngest one 1739 born, leather specialist, later they owned a mill and later generations where millers.'
So again that is quite exciting maybe these are cousins? As i know Otto was a pork butcher and his brothers were also the same...Otto seemed to progress from Gut Scraper upwards and i know he was involved in tanning the skin..so this is kind of linked to leather specialist losely.
I have found his father was Named FRIEDRICH KNELLER and in 1892 on Ottos(1st) marriage certificate it states deceased and he was a brewer.
marriage cert also states he lived in Blackburn...though it's hard to make out the exact address.
Again thank you so much for you help, i truly appreciate it :)
-
A reply from the Kunzelsau office...
Otto Kneller was the youngest son from Georg Friedrich Kneller (1810-1870) in Künzelsau.
The father wasn't brewer but winegrower.
We didn't find him coming back to Künzelsau after being deported back to Germany.
Another Otto Kneller originating from Künzelsau (born in Berlin) is the individual who ran a textile shop in Berlin, and returned to Künzelsau, where the shop existed until last year.
Perhaps your great great grandfather run also a textile shop, perhaps he wasn't. But both Otto are originating from the same family tree.
I guess it will be possible to get more informations in the parochial register - but it will cost fees.
More confused now ???
-
me again :o
I have spoken to a relative who went to see Otto in the fifties...he was then living in Schorndorf.
I am trying to find an email address for their record offices to find out whether he died there in 1969.
anyone have any ideas what it is please?
many thanks
-
Hi Clare,
The Kneller s came to Künzelsau in 1606 and have been there ever since, so there are probably several Kneller families around.
Herr Kneller mentioned 4 brothers in his grandfather's (or maybe G-Grandfather's) generation, and even without the "family connection", Otto is a very common name in Germany (probably because one of their rulers, many years ago, was called Ottokar).
I'm looking forward to getting the letters soon, and then we can maybe unravel a bit more :)
Bob
-
Schorndorf is about 60 Km. south of Künzelsau.
http://www.schorndorf.de/servlet/PB/menu/1158171_l1/index.html
but I can't find the Standesamt (Regisry Office)
There is a City Archives here:
http://www.schorndorf.de/servlet/PB/menu/1158262_l1/index.html
perhaps you can e-mail them; if they haven't got those records, they will at least tell where you might find them.
Bob
-
Hi Clare,
the Easter Bunny came early this year ;D
Just found an envelope full of data in my post-box, from Herr Kneller in Künzelsau.
George Friedrich Kneller is described there as "Vintner and brewer".
So it looks like he was both; but maybe he didn't always give both occupations on every document ?
Apart fom his own data, Herr Kneller has sent copies of three letters from Kneller researchers, one in Canada, two in Britain.
It seems there was also an Otto Kneller who came from Canada to Britain ..... :o ::)
Send me a PM with your address and I'll send it all on to you :)
Bob
-
wow-that is AMAZING! Thank you so very very much :) i have PM'd you with my details and i look forward to reading them-this is all amazing!
Thank you.
-
Hi Clare,
have PMed you, but just to whet your appetite:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,366085.msg2418190.html#msg2418190
No, not for Otto, but a Charles Kneller :)
Bob
Update:
If we are talking about the same Otto Kneller here, then Charles (Karl Christian) was Otto's brother.
-
ohhhh that's very exciting!!!! i know that 'my' Otto came over to the UK with his brother and had other family here...Wigan and Liverpool... SO it's all adding up that it could well be Ottos brother Charles...
I am so excited, i'm not going to be able to sleep until i have the letters in my hand :D
-
The plot thickens...i have had an email from a British relative who states Otto Died in Dusseldorf...considering when in the 50s he was in Scorndorf and would of been in his 70s then.
How far is Dusseldorf from Scorndorf?
Also 'legend' (i'm a bit sceptical) has it a Dusseldorf newspaper ran a small obituary when he died in 1969 aged 99 because 'he had never worn glasses' ????
is there anyway i could find this article, if it was to exist?
thanks AGAIN :)
-
back again ::)
I was wondering is Kneller a particularly common name?
ALSO i've found Charles Kneller on a few census's AND he to was a pork butcher! This was also my Ottos trade!!!
so you can guess what me next question is going to be????
Was a pork butcher a common German trade? I mean to have several Knellers in the UK all listed as Pork Butchers...i've found about 4 so far!
ALSO why is Otto not on ANY census bar the 1911 when he was with my gr gr nan? All i have ever found was his one Marriage certificate to Laura Mallett in Barrow in Furness in October 1892...and then NOTHING...it's like he vanishes???
On the 1901 census Laura Mallett is down as single? So was a divorce likely? I'm very confused and frustrated that he can't be found anywhere...
-
I was wondering is Kneller a particularly common name?
This question is often asked, for various names, so I've given a few links here:
Topic: Germany: Distribution and frequency of surnames
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,366583.0.html
According to one of the links, there are about 225 entries in the phone books and therefore approx. 565 persons with the name Kneller (but don't ask me what they base that on)
Bob
-
Was a pork butcher a common German trade? I mean to have several Knellers in the UK all listed as Pork Butchers...i've found about 4 so far!
Just go into any german supermarket and look at the meats section !!
You want some ham ? which one ? we have .........
You want some sausage ? which one ? we have .........
They have about 5000 ways of serving up pork (or so it seems), so yes, it is/was quite a common trade ;D
-
;D i see, i thought it was a common trade in Germany but how come the UK had so many of them actually employed doing that.
i wondered what is a Bürgermeister? I found this written next to one of my ancestors.
On digging on the census's i've also found another Charles Kneller b1858 who was a roman catholic priest visiting another Priest in Prescot on the 1891 census. This is interesting...i wonder whether this fellow may be in my line as well?!
I wondered whether the Otto on the letters you have there has many siblings? i got told that he was one of 16+ children? this might/or might not be an exageration.
if so the fact i am finding so many Knellers who seem to be in the same trade coming from the same area and then moving to the UK might not be so unrealistic that they are siblings or cousins.
Everytime i hear of someone i seem to find my family is 3 times as big as intially thought and how exciting it is.
I have never been abroad but i have decided i will do a little 'tour' of the hohenlohekreis area,Schorndorf and Dusseldorf soon...i want to see where he grew up and things.
I am very proud of my German heritage.
-
:o :o please excuse my spelling on that post it is horrific, i was rushing ::)
-
Bürgermeister = Mayor
And Otto is indeed one of 16 siblings - 9 from one wife, 7 from a second wife.
(So Charles and Otto are actually step-brothers)
Sorry, but the Post Office is closed here too, so I can't post before tomorrow *nail-biting smiley* :'( ( ;D )
Bob
-
wow...all i can say is his father was a very busy man :D
so it looks like we are spot on with all this research...so Charles and Otto were step brothers? not half brothers? did they have the same father but different mothers? This is fantastic information...
again thank you so much-without you i would of been floundering still. :o
-
Bob i have sent you a PM! package received this morning-thank you eternally :)
-
the plot thickens!!!
it would appear that Otto may of had a child with his first wife... ::) :o
She was raised by her grandparents and had her mothers maiden name...was this very common? she was born in 1893...Laura(her mother) remarried after moving to America...i have litterally just found this out and my head is SWIMMING!
I have sent a letter to Micheal this morning and also to Daphne as mentioned in the letters...though whether she is alive still is another thing.
I am now also in touch with a woman in Australia who is a direct descendent from Charles in Wigan... so it's all systems go...i am on holiday next week for easter and childrens holidays...it will be a welcome break lol, i find this is taking over my life!
I hope all of you readers are well, and bob thanks again for your help, i'll be in touch more directly once back from Weymouth as i'll need some help :)
happy easter all! ;D
-
Hi Claire,
Far too many Otto's here, and Georg's, and Friedrich's ::) ;D
I've tried to summarise what we've got (and what I've understood),
and as there are 5 Kneller descendents involved, I've labelled them all:
Ch. Kneller (UK)
Cl. Kneller (UK, that's you :) )
D. Kneller (Canada)
J. Kneller (UK)
M. Kneller (Künzelsau)
It seems that J. and Cl. are related through Otto (1875)
and Cl., J., D. and Ch. are related, one generation further back (as Karl Christian, Emma and Otto are all children of Georg Friedrich Kneller ( (1810-1870) )
But I don't know where M. Kneller fits in here. I am guessing that you've all been confusing your Otto with Michael's Otto, but they are definitely two different people.
Looks like you all need to find ancestors (or even siblings) of Georg Friederich, till you find a common ancestor somewhere.
One thing that doesn't "match": J. Kneller says that Otto came to England from Canada, Cl. Kneller (and the Ancestry) record say that Otto came to England from Germany.
I was wondering, whether we are talking about two different Ottos here,
but both J. and Cl. say that he married Eliza Jones, so something doesn't fit there ???
Hope the "summary" is understandable :)
(I'm not 100% certain where you "fit" in ... i.e. whether the connection to Otto/1870 is through one of Otto/1904's siblings or through his children)
Bob
ps. J. Kneller has now written to me; I'll "point" her at this topic :)
-
thanks for that :) it's crazy isn't it-blooming family names!!!
right i've just come back off my hols to find a birth certificate waiting for me...for one Maud Kneller who as expected is Ottos daughter and his name is on the birth certificate. his occupation is of pork butcher(as to be expected) but also states 'JOURNEYMAN' so i presume this is someone who knows much of their trade and travels to jobs-is this right? as this would explain how he manged to end up in Swindon and wolverhampton.
I am awaiting a reply from Daphne...fingers crossed she is still at that address in Canada and alive.
???
-
I Also had a thought that maybe GOTTLIEB may well have been Gottlob? as in the UK he is listed on census under both names... ??? ???
-
sorry, also J is related to me...i've been in contact with her and her tree is my tree he grandfather was my gr grandmothers brother...but she's new to this and though she does have him down as going from Canada i believe this to be a different otto that she has presumed was Our Otto IYSWIM?
nice and confusing but we are the same line definately. ;D
-
Otto's galore ;D
or wotto lotto Otto ;D ;D
Yes, Gottlieb could also be Gottlob, but even so, the Gottlob Friederich on your side is definitely not the Gottlob Friederick on M.Kneller's side.
(and we mutter about all ours being called John and Peter .... ::) )
A Journeyman is just someone who's completed his apprenticeship
RootsChat Reference Library (http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/index.php) => Lexicon (click here) (http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/reflib-lexicon.php?letter=J)
her grandfather was my gr grandmothers brother.
Aha ! so you are connected through the "other children", rather than J's father :)
Bob
-
Hello,
Doing research on German pork butchers in Britain, I looked into my lists of emigrants and found a Gottlob Kneller, born 1841 in Untermassholderbach, district Oehringen-Künzelsau. He became pork butcher in London and was married to Katharina, née Seitz.
Referring to the question: "Was a pork butcher a common German trade?" I would say, it was not more common in Germany than elsewhere or than any other trade. But as they were specialists in pork butchering, they were cornering the market in those fast-growing industrial towns in Britain in the middle of the 19th century, where there was a need for basic, cheap and ready-made food. For more information on that topic see the following link: http://www.surrey.ac.uk/Arts/CRONEM/CRONEM-papers09/Wuestner.pdf
Kind regards
Histres
-
Thank you so much for your reply, i must say the piece you referred me to is amazing and shone a light on what really happened. thanks so much for sharing it with me ;D
I must also hunt out Sue Gibbons' book now, i'd had a little break from this branch of tree as i again hit a brick wall with it-but you have set me on another path with it.
again thank you :)
-
i have had a reply frm D. Cook in Canada...it would appear we are definately related, her grandmother was my Ottos sister.
She told me that apparently he did go to Canada(Toronto) from Germany aged 15 and hated it...then went on to Chicago in the US and hated it there also and ended up in London with Emma (d.cooks grandmother) and from there he travelled around the uk.
So one mystery over...slightly :)
Now on to the Heerleins and Knellers further back! ::)
-
Hello Claire,
When going through the censuses and the BT phonebooks I realized that there are amazingly many Kneller families listed. I always thought that Kneller was just a German name. The striking number of them, however, makes me suspicious and I wonder whether it is also a common English name. Or do all the Knellers descend from German immigrants?
Best regards
Histres
-
My uncle's father married a Caldecott and a family story says that a Caldecott portrait,
painted by Sir Godfrey KNELLER (1646 - 1723) was stolen in New York in the 1950's.
Godfrey Kneller was born Gottfried Kniller in Lübeck, Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfrey_Kneller
It doesn't say anything in the wiki article about any children,
nor (as far as I can make out, in this dutch article )
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/houb005groo01_01/houb005groo01_01_0391.htm
but if he did have any male children, then there were KNELLER familes in Britain from the 17th century onwards :)
Bob
ps. more searching: he did marry, but still no mention of children:
When Sir Godfrey died he left about 800 pictures in Kneller Hall which were sold by his widow. She continued to live at Kneller Hall until 1729.
http://www.twickenham-museum.org.uk/detail.asp?ContentID=62
update:
Gosh, there must be millions of 'em !
An elder brother, John Zachary Kneller, an ornamental painter, had accompanied Godfrey to England, and had died in 1702.
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Sir_Godfrey_Kneller
and
http://www.answers.com/topic/godfrey-kneller
-
Hi Berlin-Bob,
Thank you so much for your detailed information. The links you sent me are very interesting, informative and they give a good imagination of how many Knellers there must be around all over Britain. I realize that you must have invested a good deal of time to collect all those connections. Thanks again for that. In addition I now understand your special interest in the Kneller family topics and their family trees much better.
Regards
Histres
-
Hi Histres,
now and again someone posts a name or topic here which catches the imagination.
In this case because I had heard the name before, I got interested. the links from my previous post came from a search engine; I just entered sir godfrey kneller :)
Gruß aus Berlin,
Bob
-
hi im lydia-amelia my nan is ruby kneller her dad is otto kneller (albert) he was married to edna may smith. ottos dad was called albert kneller and his sister was eliza kneller he had a brother called fredrick kneller were not sure of alberts wifes first name but we know her last name was gunter. otto lived at half penny green(bobbington) with his family then later on went back to germany leaving granny gunter who remarried a man whos last name was bright in disledorf germany one of the ottos were given the key to the city thre is family history in disledorf.
otto and edna may smith married and edna became edna may kneller and had nine children: otto (first born), stanley(second born),eileen(third born), geoffrey (who went to australia), wilfred, ruby (my gran), olga, thomas, and denis. and thats all we know i realy hope that this information has helped you.
lydia-amelia. :)
-
we have just found out quite a lot about sir godfrey :Sir Godfrey Kneller (real name Gottfried Kniller) was an Anglo-German artist. He was born in 1646 at Lubeck and died in 1723. He studied in Amsterdam under Ferdinand Bol and received some lessons from Rembrandt. He visited Rome, Venice, and Hamburg, and gained a good reputation for historical paintings as well as portraits. He settled in England in 1684 following the death of his father, and succeeded Sir Peter Lely as court painter to Charles II. He filled the same position under James II, William III., Anne and George I. George I made him a baronet. In addition to all the celebrities of the English court, including the Ten Beauties of the court of William, now at Hampton Court, he painted the 43 members of the Kit-Cat Club, and portraits of ten sovereigns, including Louis XIV. and Peter the Great. He was highly praised by Dryden, Pope, Addison, and Steele, but his works have more value historically than as works of art., Kneller was the greatest master of the English baroque portrait. As Court painter to four sovereigns, he dominated English art for more than thirty years.
Born in Lübeck, Germany, Kneller trained as a painter in Amsterdam under Rembrandt’s pupil, Bol. He visited Rome and Venice probably painting portraits of Venetian nobility before coming to England in about 1676. He was appointed Principal Painter to the Court of William and Mary in 1688. He was knighted in 1692 and made a Baronet in 1715, the first painter to be so honoured.
Kneller acquired a property in Whitton then known as Whitton Hall which he adapted or rebuilt between 1709 and 1711. It has come to be called Kneller Hall.
Kneller Hall was large with a studio where he and a number of assistants worked. His commissions were many and his output prolific. As a member of the Kit-cat Club pledged to support the Protestant succession to the throne, Kneller painted an intriguing set of portraits - the Kit-cat Club portraits, some of which can be seen in the National Portrait Gallery.
some of his paintings are being sold for over £6,00,000 - £8,00,000 :D :D :D
lydia-amelia
-
hi im lydia-amelia my nan is ruby kneller her dad is otto kneller (albert) he was married to edna may smith. ottos dad was called albert kneller and his sister was eliza kneller he had a brother called fredrick kneller were not sure of alberts wifes first name but we know her last name was gunter. otto lived at half penny green(bobbington) with his family then later on went back to germany leaving granny gunter who remarried a man whos last name was bright in disledorf germany one of the ottos were given the key to the city thre is family history in disledorf.
otto and edna may smith married and edna became edna may kneller and had nine children: otto (first born), stanley(second born),eileen(third born), geoffrey (who went to australia), wilfred, ruby (my gran), olga, thomas, and denis. and thats all we know i realy hope that this information has helped you.
lydia-amelia. :)
Hi i think I can help I no the of the sons of otto kneller
-
Bob i have sent you a PM! package received this morning-thank you eternally :)
. My family are knellers my grandad is Otto Albert kneller im trying to track down lydia-Amelia on hear we are part of the family my email (*)
(*) Moderator Comment: Personal details removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
The Rootschat personal message system will be automatically activated
when a member has made two or three posts on the boards.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Lydia my family are related to u Otto is my dads dad please could u reply to me