RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: smcb on Wednesday 04 February 09 15:34 GMT (UK)
-
Hi
I am having trouble trying to get anything on the birth of Christian Stewart of somewhere in Perthshire.I can get her details of marriage and children from the records at my local library but I dont know who her parents were so I can't go any further ( or rather there are a few people that can be her parents but I NEED a birh date for her so that I am on the right track!! Here is the info I have already.
Christian Stewart married John Stewart 2 Dec 1838 in Little Dunkeld, Perth.
She had 7 kids:
Charles Stewart 30 Dec June 1842, Little Dunkeld
Christian Stewart 1 Aug 1844, Little Dunkeld
William Stewart 25 Oct 1846, Little Dunkeld
Catherine Stewart 13 Mar 1849, Little Dunkeld
Bell Stewart 15 Jun 1851, Little Dunkeld
John Stewart 1 May 1873, Little Dunkeld (possible twins?)
Donald Stewart, 1 May 1873, Little Dunkeld
I am trying to get her birth date and her death date.
I can find birth dates for 1814 (but she would have had her last baby at the age of 59??? I don't think so)
1817 and 1822 I am at a dead end and just don't know where to turn next.
Any help and suggestions on where to take this research next would be most appreciated.
Suz
-
Hi Suz,
I saw that nobody seemed to have tried to help you, so did a little 'money-spending digging' :-)
thus ....
1881 Census Bellfield Cottage. Little Dunkeld Parish
Head of House:
John Stewart Married 75 yrs Male Market Gardener born Little Dunkeld
55 in 1861 Census
Wife:
Christina STEWART 66 yrs born Logierait Parish (47 in 1861 Census)
but in 1851 and 1861 Census born in neighbouring Dull Parish
I also have them in 1841, 1851 and 1861 Census .jpg and .tif Images...
with family in 1851 and 1861 thus ..
[All 3 Census Images available by e-mail attachment if you Personal Message me your e-mail address]
1851 ...
Charles 8 b. Little Dunkeld
Christian 6 b. Little Dunkeld
William 4 b. Little Dunkeld
Catherine 2 b. Little Dunkeld
1861 ...
Isabella 9 b. Little Dunkeld
John 6 b. Little Dunkeld
Grand-daughter Catherine 1 b. Auchtergaven
(John Stewart Snr.'s Brother Alexander 53 Unmarried b. Little Dunkeld)
Cheers,
DDJJAKE ... retired headteacher of Stirling
-
See this message on a previous thread about her:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,360460.msg2371623.html#msg2371623
Where I said:
Scotland's People have a Christina Stewart dying in 1889, Little Dunkeld. Aged 71
6 SP credits would likely give you her parents' names.
Gadget
-
Hi Gadget,
This was not her as this one was Single and a Pauper with Father Alexander Stewart and Mother Margaret Stewart ... I spent over £5 looking for the deaths of John and Christina last week all over Scotland without success ... a nice mystery eh!
Aye
DDJ
-
Hi Suz,
Could you tell us how you have worked back to this couple?
That is, who is your last known certain person on this line - the one who led you to John & Christian who married in 1838.
Births from 1842-1851 then nothing until a twin birth in 1873 immediately arouses suspicion that two couples of the same names might be involved here??
JAP
-
DDJ - Twas the only one that I could find at the time. I'll have another look.
Re spending a fortune on SP - I spend too much to even admit to :-[
Gadget
-
There's a bit about them on the last page of this thread, JAP:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,360460.0.html
Gadget
Added - no baptisms so far that match any any trad naming pattern :-\
-
Think that I've found her death:
9 Feb 1887 Brae Street, Dunkeld, age 73, married to John Stewart (labourer) . Parents - Charles Stewart, joiner and Christina m.s Scrimiger (?) or Scrimigeon, both deceased.
Son John was the informant
Gadget
Added - I don't think that the 1873 births could possibly be hers - she was in her late 50s
-
Here's the mother's name - can you make it out, JAP. It looks like Christian/Christina/Christine Scrimgeon to me :-\
Gadget
-
Here are Donald & John in 1881.
A different family.
Clachglass, Fortingall, Kinloch Rannoch, Perthshire
STEWART
John 56, Shepherd, b Fortingall G
Christian 41, b Fortingall G
Donald 6, b Fortingall G
John 6, b Fortingall G
James 1, b Dull G
JAP
-
Very different from the ones that DDJ has found who fit with what Suz has said before:
1851 ...
Charles 8 b. Little Dunkeld
Christian 6 b. Little Dunkeld
William 4 b. Little Dunkeld
Catherine 2 b. Little Dunkeld
1861 ...
Isabella 9 b. Little Dunkeld
John 6 b. Little Dunkeld
Grand-daughter Catherine 1 b. Auchtergaven
(John Stewart Snr.'s Brother Alexander 53 Unmarried b. Little Dunkeld)
-
Great work Gadget .....
It was probably written by the Registrar as SCRIMIGEOR ....
With a 1950s' spelling, an Ann Scrimgeour was a pal of mine at school in Stirling.
PRONOUNCED 'scrimidger' in Scotland.
Aye
DDJ
-
Perhaps both or either of John STEWART & Christian/Christina (STEWART) STEWART might have died between 1881 and 1891.
There's a John in 1891 of the right age and birthplace as a father-in-law but he's a retired ferryman - whereas "our" John was a Gardener/Market Gardener.
There's a Christina of the right birthplace though a bit young in 1891 as follows:
Lude House, Blair Atholl, Perth
Household of William MCINROY, Landed Proprietor
Christina STEWART, 72, Servant, Cook, b Dull Perthshire
JAP
PS: This Christina is still there in 1901 - and age (87) is a better fit. She's now a Retired Domestic Cook.
-
Great work Gadget .....
It was probably written by the Registrar as SCRIMIGEOR ....
With a 1950s' spelling, an Ann Scrimgeour was a pal of mine at school in Stirling.
PRONOUNCED 'scrimidger' in Scotland.
Aye
DDJ
That's what threw me, DDJ - I've only ever heard it spoken and it always came out as Scrimidger ;D
Suz - PM me your e-mail and I'll send the cert.
Gadget
-
Scrimgeour is definitely a Logierait name where Christina was born, next to Dull Parish.
e.g.
Death in 1876 SCRIMGEOUR CHRISTINA MUNRO F 78 LOGIERAIT /PERTH
Useful corroborative evidence !
DDJ
-
Looks pretty good :)
Can't find a baptism but that's not all that unusual.
So far I've only found two baptisms for children of Charles Stewart and Christian Scrimgeour. Both Logierait (I pass there on the A9 :) )
17 Sept 1820 Catherine
12 Aug 1823 Charles
We really need a stroll through the parish on the 1841. I think you can do it with Freecen.
Gadget
-
I am puzzled why SCRIMGEOUR has been brought into the equation when the person we are looking for married John STEWART in 1838 as (I believe) Christian STEWART, and her name was given as Christian STEWART at the births of all her children in Little Dunkeld - Charles b 1842, Christian b 1844 (submitted), William b 1846 (submitted), Catherine b 1849 (submitted), Bell b 1851, John b 1855.
There's an Elizth. b 1844 Blair Athol to parents of the same names but ...
Anyway, getting the 1855 (a wonderful 1855 certificate!) record for John would seem to be worthwhile.
But I still wonder, Suz, how you worked back to this family i.e. are you sure you have the right family?
High time I went to bed!
JAP
-
I think you've misssed a few of the messages, JAP.
Suz was looking for the death of the said Christian Stewart who married John Stewart in 1838 so that she could work out who her parents were. We have ascertained that the likely parents are Charles Stewart and Christian Scrimgeor. From the censuses Christian was born circa 1815, Logirait or Dull.
DDJ has listed the children from the censuses in the quote I gave a couple of messages or so back (Reply#13) .
Gadget
-
OK, this may well be so. But the names (John STEWART and Christian/Christina STEWART) seem to be very common so I think it might well need further confirmation - though a father named Charles is good. A pity that the dc gives John's occupation as Laborer - Gardener would better!
Unfortunately we don't have any children between the marriage in 1838 and Charles b 1842 (which would be helpful as one might expect a first son to be named after John's father).
Anyway, I've disposed of the twins, Donald & John b 1873 for Suz - simply another family with parents of the same names (reply #9).
And I've found the birth in the IGI of John in 1855 (which Suz didn't have though he appears in the censuses). That really would be a good certificate to get - I've never personally had the joy of an 1855 certificate, unfortunately.
And I do still wonder what the line is back to the family (just being picky I guess).
Well, I'll see what's happened tomorrow my time.
JAP
-
John was a road surface man when John was born in 1855. It fits with the family - 2 boys and 3 girls living living Inchmore, Little Dunkeld.
Gadget
-
Ay Gadget,
Christina was married by 1841 and I originally found them childless in Freecen 1841 and she as 'Chrissy' ... a guid Scots shortnin' as ye ken.
Aye
DDJ
-
Trying to read all the cert - John was 50 and Christian was 38. Married 2 Dec 1840 at Boat of Cluny, Logierait.
Added - where did the 1838 marriage come from, suz? Just found them, I think they might well have forgotten the year after that length of time - day and month are correct on the cert but out by 2 years.
Trying to decipher where Christian was born - Drumshannachan, Strath Tay, Parish of Logierait
Her 6th child.
-
Interesting names these scrawlers disguise eh ... Gadget,
How about ....
DRUM = STRANNACHER STRATHTAY .. I don't know that area ... do you?
Kinda reminded me o Stronachlacher or something like that ..in the heilans?
DDJ
-
Gadget,
NLA maps at http://www.nls.uk/maps/atlas/thomson/531.html ...top left
Just North of magnificent Schichallion are .. farms (?)
Drumachastle and Drumachewan
border of Dull and Part of Logierait
DDJ
-
Thanks, DDJ - I've been peering and got mixed up with the Rob Roy Way ;D
I know the area vaguely - spent a few days in Dunkeld and Strathtay a long while back and have a friend who lives Little Dunkeld but my main knowledge of it at present is as signposts on the A9 :-\
Gadget
-
I guess you noticed the submitted entry for one of the children of John STEWART & Christian STEWART, Catherine 1849. It gives her birthplace as Littleton Of Inchmagrannachan, Little Dunkeld.
...annachan fits with the end of the indecipherable word but ...
Littleton and Inchmagrannachan can be found on Streetmap UK just a little NW of Dunkeld.
John & Christy/Christian/Christina were in Littleto(w)n in 1841 (Labourer), 1851 (Ag Lab) and 1861 (Road Surfaceman); then at Bellfield Cottage in 1871 (Gardener) and 1881 (Market Gardener).
I haven't managed to find the parents of Christian (STEWART) STEWART in 1841 ...
JAP
PS: There's a submitted entry for the marriage of Charles STEWART & Christian SCRIMGOUR, 22 Jan 1811, Logierait, which gives this Christian's father's name as Alex
-
Looking for John STEWART's brother Alexander before 1861, I wondered about the following.
1851
Glenalbert, Little Dunkeld
STEWART
Grace, Head, 70
Alexander, Son, 45, no occupation listed
William, Son, 35, Labourer
All born Little Dunkeld
1841
Glenalbert, Little Dunkeld
STEWART
William, 60, Labourer
Grace, 60
Alexander, 30, no occupation listed
David, 15, Shoemaker
JAP
PS: Glenalbert is also on Streetmap UK - some 2 or 3km north of Littleton/Inchmagrannachan
-
Can I just throw a spanner in the works of the Stewart lot :P
I have a John A Stewart born Blair Atholl abt 1827
On the 1851 census he is with other family members..........
Alexander Stewart 50, (he's a farmer)
Margret Stewart 51, farmer's wife
Ann Stewart 13
Christian Stewart 10
Isabella Stewart 11
Margret Stewart 22, barmaid
Catherine Fleming 48, sister in law
Alexr Morrison 24, ag lab
Their address is Bridge of Fender, Blair Athol.
This John married a 2x great aunt of mine Catherine Conway (Conneway)
Any relation??? says she hopefully :-)
Sylvia
-
Hi Sylvia,
In what way do you think that you are throwing "a spanner in the works".
STEWART is a very common name in Perthshire. And given names like John, Alexander, Christian etc are also common.
Do you have any reason for thinking that the Blair Athol STEWARTs you mention from the 1851 census could be related to the Little Dunkeld STEWARTs of this thread?
Regards,
JAP
-
Hi Sylvia
As JAP says, Stewart is a pretty common in the area.
Have you traced this Alexander to find out his parents - or checked for a death for him. That might help to find if there is any relationship between your's and suz's families.
Regards
Gadget
-
Do you have any reason for thinking that the Blair Athol STEWARTs you mention from the 1851 census could be related to the Little Dunkeld STEWARTs of this thread?
I've no idea JAP, hence the "spanner" ;D
Like you say..there's a lot of them about!
Gadget
My John and Catherine had no children from what I can see on any of the census and I haven't been able to find his birth in the OPR's..his mother's maiden name according to his death cert was also Stewart.
So thereby hangs another brickwall!!
sylvia
-
Probably just a case of using my lot for elimination purposes.
-
so sorry been a few days since i was last on and what a work you have done!!! ok here is the info working from my grandmother and forwards.
Jeanie Ness Robertson b 1920 married John Melville 30 DEC 1938 children:
Catherine Mcgregor Robertson Melville
Lynda Melville
Joyce Melville
mother is Catherine Mcgregor b1878 Aberfeldy,married Alexander Robertson 30 DEC 1898 middle church, perth
Children:
John Mcgregor Robertson
Alexander Robertson
Christina Mcgregor Robertson
Henry Mcnamara Robertson
Isabella Robertson
George Deans Robertson
Catherine Stewart Robertson
Helen Robertson
mother is Catherine Stewart b1849 Little Dunkeld married Donald Mcgregor 4 DEC 1868 Dalguise, Little Dunkeld
children:
Jessie Clark Mcgregor
John Mcgregor
Christina Mcgregor
Catherine Mcgregor
Isabella Mcgregor
Archibald Clark Mcgregor
William Mcgregor
Daniel Mcgregor
mother is Christian Stewart b ???? married John Stewart 2 DEC 1838 Little Dunkeld
children:
Charles Stewart
Christian Stewart
William Stewart
Catherine Stewart
Bell Stewart
(possibly a John Stewart b1855) and
(twins John & Donald Stewart which I dont think she had)
I hope this makes sense!!
Suz x
-
I have christian/christina death cert also her husband john's, they both died in Dunkeld 4 months apart in 1887
suz
-
Suz,
I started this 'ball rolling' and the others were such a great help.
If you go back to the 2nd reply to your initial query, you will find that I offer a number of GRO images which you may not have.
Personal message me with your e-mail and I'll send you any missing ones.
Aye
DDJJAKE
[Auld an] Decrepit Dominie John Jake :-)
-
There is also the 6th child, John, b 1855 that suz doesn't mention in her summary . His certificate is the one that gives Christian/Christiana's place of birth.
Were you able to get beyond Charles Stewart and Chirstian Scrimiger?
Gadget
-
Hi Gadget,
no I havent checked beyond that yet I wanted to get Christian sorted first. i now know that Christian was 73 when she died so im thinking her birth is roughly 1814/1815
Suz
-
HI Suz
I downloaded the birth cert for son John in 1855 - see reply #21 and around there on this thread.
We think Christian's place of birth is Drumshannachan, Strathtay, Logierait.
JAP found a possible location on Streetmap- Inchmagrannachan, near Dunkeld.
We've only found two births so far for Charles and Christian - Reply #15:
o far I've only found two baptisms for children of Charles Stewart and Christian Scrimgeour. Both Logierait (I pass there on the A9 :))
17 Sept 1820 Catherine
12 Aug 1823 Charles
Gadget
-
thank you gadget.....i think the inchmagrannachan one may tie in as that is where Christian's child Catherine was born. I have been up to little dunkeld to see if there were any graves stones that I could get info from but i wasnt successful.
at least now i can maybe see where this goes with the other ones.
thanks again
suz x
-
As you seem to be able to get to the Records Office and, possibly Edinburgh NAS, have you checked out the Kirk Sessions Minutes for Logierait and Dunkeld/Little Dunkeld?
There might be mention of them in there.
It does take a while to read through them but worth it if you find just one of two references :)
Gadget
-
Hiya Gadget
I think I shall have a wee trip to edinburgh next week and look them up. A thousand thank you's for the work you and JAP and ddjjake have done.
Suz x
-
I have another offering for the placename: Drumstanarchan. I found it in a book I have, and have not positively identified it on a map. It was on the Estate of Edradynate, which can be found on a map. The estate was in a detached part of Logierait Parish (shown as detached part No.2 on the 1850s OS map). That detached part was transferred to Weem Parish in 1891, following the work of the Boundary Commission set up by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889. The commission's main tasks were to do away with detached parts of parishes, detached parts of counties and parishes which lay across county boundaries.
The 1850s OS map can be seen at:
http://www.nls.uk/maps/os/oneinch_1st_list.html
Select sheet 55 - Blair Atholl
About midway between the centre of the map and the south-east corner, you will see a long bend in the river (River Tay). Click on the northmost point of the bend in the river until you can read the placenames. Then find the railway line parallel to the river. Pan left a couple of times until ABERFELDY BRANCH is right of centre in your view of the map. You should now see Edradynate onthe north bank of the river immediately west of there. Drumstanarchan must be close to there. The other places listed on the estate, which were all in the transferred parcel of land were Balnald, Blackhill, Knockreach, Lick and Lurgan. So it is fair to assume that Drumstanarchan was close to them all. It is described as a house rather than a farm. All these properties were owned by James Stewart Robertson of Edradynate at the time of the boundary commission's work.
The 1832 John Thomson atlas, the Perthshire map http://www.nls.uk/maps/atlas/thomson/531.html shows the same area on its north-east section. About a third of the way up the west edge of that map, you will find that same detached section of Logierait Parish with Edradynate Estate. Within that you will find Drumshandy which may be Drumstanarchan - I've no proof, but I have no better offering. Drumshandy shows on some of the other early maps (pre-Ordnance Survey).
ADP
-
...thank you so much for this. It gives me an idea of where the area is and this area seems to have significance with our family...it seems as though its all connected but it might be my wishful thinking!!
suz x
-
ADP,
You are a star!
I thought this one might have stumped you - but no!
Brilliantly done.
I see that a search for Edradynate on Streetmap UK finds it - and Blackhill and Lurgan also appear.
I looked at the 1841 census on FreeCEN for the ROBERTSONs (owners of Edradynate) and they are there - James & Dorothie (sic) ROBERTSON. Interestingly, in view of the names in this thread, their two female servants are a STEWART and a SCRIMGOUR.
Perhaps more interestingly, in view of the place name query, four households along from Edradynate is a place called Drumshanchan (people in it are ROBERTSONs). Balnald, Blackhill and Lirgan (sic) also appear.
There are quite a few STEWARTs and SCRIMGOURs/SCRIMGARs in the district.
Of most interest is the following (three households from Edradynate in the other direction) - surely the father and siblings of "our" Christian (STEWART) STEWART.
1841/376 ED9 Folio 9 Page 6
Crockreach, Logierait, Perth (probably the Knockreach you mention)
STEWART
Charles 60 Wright
Catherine 20
John 20 Sawyer
All born Perthshire
Catherine's birth we saw earlier in the IGI (submitted entry):
Catherine STEUART bap 17 Sep 1820, Logierait Perth, parents Charles STEUART & Christian SCRIMGEOUR.
JAP
-
That 1841 find is a great one, JAP.
If you recall, I suggested that a walk through the 1841 might reveal something - you started earlier :)
Gadget
PS - the two submitted entries for Catherine and John are on SP so they're pukka :)
-
I had looked in the 1841 census earlier (as one would) - but I was looking in entirely the wrong place i.e. near Little Dunkeld.
I would never have found Charles STEWART & co were it not for ADP's brilliant find of Edradynate which sent me looking in the right place.
Yes, there are many submitted entries for Logierait which look very reliable. It does rather seem as though there is much more in the parish registers (and on SP) than has been extracted into the online IGI. So Suz might find much more - fingers are crossed for you Suz.
JAP
-
Did we get the 1851:
Knocriach(?), Logierait
376 ED 9 Page 6
Stewart
Charles, 71, carpenter, b. Weem
John, 33, son, carpenter, b. Weem
Cathrine McKay, dau, 30, dressmaker, b. Logierait
Neil Mckay, daughter's son, 3, b. ? Perthshire
Now - if John was b. Weem could 'our' Christian have been born there too?
Gadget
-
:D :D :D
Charles is on the 1861 - same place - so we'll be able to get a death cert :D
Gadget
-
Not sure if it is him but it's the only one and the plot thickens ~
Charles Stewart died 16 December 1864, Littleton, Little Dunkeld
Joiner, widower of Christina Fraser, aged 86. Father was Duncan Stewart, labourer, dec.
Informant - John Stewart/Stuart (bad signature), son in law
Gadget
-
Hi Suz,
In your summary, you wrote:
... (possibly a John Stewart b1855) and
(twins John & Donald Stewart which I dont think she had) ...
As Gadget has pointed out, 'your' Christian (STEWART) STEWART most definitely did have John in 1855. Gadget kindly downloaded John's birth certificate which was a mine of information- it (correctly) showed that John was her 6th child, which led to the names of her parents (Charles STEWART & Christian SCRIMGEOUR), and which led to her birthplace.
And as was pointed out earlier (see my reply #9), 'your' Christian (STEWART) STEWART most definitely did NOT have twins John & Donald. They were children of a much younger couple - coincidentally also John STEWART & Christian STEWART (these names are common in the general area!) - who lived in Fortingall.
Anyway, it seems you can now add quite a lot to your summary taking it further back in time.
The submitted entry for the 1811 marriage of Charles STEWART & Christian SCRIMGEOUR is on SP (see reply #25). And we have possibles/probables for John STEWART's parents (see reply 26).
And (see Gadget's latest posts) it seems that you might well be able to get the parents of Charles STEWART.
Lots of fun ahead!
JAP
PS: Gadget, perhaps that is yet another Charles Stewart though that seems unlikely. Perhaps Christina Fraser was a second (or first) wife? Or confusion by s-i-l John with other generations?
-
The only other Charles of roughly the same age was single and a retired Factor in Fortingall. I'll put in a wider age band just in case*.
I'm thinking that the John Stewart, son in law, could be the John Stewart who married 'our' Christian.
The Fraser is confusing but it might be that John didn't know/gave it in error.
Gadget
* did a birth range of 1770-1790 and still only these two
-
:)
IGI extracted
Bpt. 16 March 1780, Weem - Charles Stewart
Parents - Dun(can) Stewat and Christ(ian) McGrigor
Gadget
-
There's a Charles STEWART, Christian FRAZER marriage in the IGI 1780. And an Alexander to parents of those names in 1783.
Yes, I'd assumed that s-i-l John was 'ours' given the Littleton address.
Of course, with all these STEWARTs, perhaps John got confused with family members on his own side.
JAP
-
I've been trying to investigate the Neil McKay/ Catherine McKay (I presume this is Charles daughter, Catherine Stewart). I've searched for marriages and birth registrations (as Stewart and M*cKay) 1855-1859 but nothing and nothing really on the 1861 when she was not with her father and brother.
Hoped to get mother's name from a marriage as a check but so far no luck.
It's getting late here so I'll have another go tomorrow.
Gadget
-
I have christian/christina death cert also her husband john's, they both died in Dunkeld 4 months apart in 1887 ...
Hi Suz,
What are given as parents' names and occupations on these certs?
JAP
-
The Christina one would be the one that I looked at, JAP, that led us to Charles Stewart and Christian Scrimgeor/n. Are you thinking that John's mother might have been a Fraser? He was b.c. 1805.
Gadget
-
John's parents - William Stewart and Dorothy, m.s McIntosh.
Gadget
-
From IGI:
Neil MCKAY m Catharine STEWART, 30 Dec 1844, Logierait
Parents Neil MCKAY & Catherine STEWART:
John MCKAY, b 19 Oct 1845
Neil MCKAY, b 25 Sep 1847
Both Little Dunkeld
As Catherine & little Neil are with her father in 1851, perhaps Neil snr had died?
JAP
PS: Gadget, I didn't know that you had looked at Christina's death cert. I thought it was her son John's 1855 birth cert which you looked at which led you to Charles STEWART & Christian SCRIMGEOUR, and to her birthplace.
I'm not really thinking anything in particular except that if might even have been a grandmother's name - or, of course, just have been a total error.
-
I think I'm losing it or it's late - it was the 1851 census that I found them on and I was looking for marriages/births in the 1850s rather than the 1840s :-[ :-[ :-[
I'll see if I can find a death for Catherine and then it must be bed.
Got the death for Catherine very early on in the thread and got the 1855 cert when you identified it.
Gadget
-
Hi Gadget,
Ah yes, I thought that's what you'd done i.e. mixed 1851 and 1861. Staying up so late is not the best idea as I found yesterday when I got muddled about SCRIMGEOUR.
John's parents - William Stewart and Dorothy, m.s McIntosh.
I'm wondering whether this is a mistake too ...
In reply #26 I suggested a household of William & Grace in 1841, Grace in 1851, for John's parents - because it had an appropriate person for John's brother Alexander (the Alexander who was with John in 1861 and 1871). And if this was the right Alexander another good fit was that he had no occupation recorded in 1841 or 1851. The brother with John had no occupation in 1861, and was a pauper in 1871. I wondered if he might not have been able to work.
And the IGI has submitted and extracted entries for a John STEWART 1805 Little Dunkeld, with parents William STEWART & Girzel (Girzel/Grizel an old form of Grace) MCINTOSH as parents ...
There are also some submitted entries for later children of William STEWART/Grace MCINTOSH.
JAP
-
Informant on John's death cert is John Stewart, son so he, again could have given part of the name wrong :-\
A final word from me for tonight - I've just peeped at Charles Stewart and Christian Scrimigeor's marriage entry of 1811, Logierait.
Charles is described as Wright in Torrchelie/Tomchelie and Christian as daughter of Alexr Scrimguer in Tulloch
Gadget
-
I think I mentioned that the IGI (submitted) entry for the 1811 marriage mentions Christian's father as Alex.
But doesn't mention Charles's father's name.
Oh! Now we have two more place names! Let's hope they are easier than Drumshannachan.
JAP
-
Here they are:
-
Tomchellie appears in Logierait in the 1841 (address just Tomchellie) and 1851 (address given as Tomchellie Killiechassie) censuses.
It would seem to be SW of Edradynate towards Aberfeldy. It's not on Streetmap UK but, if the census routes were walked in order, then it would be between Killiechassie (now owned by JK Rowling) and Tombuie (both of which are on Streetmap).
And for Alexander, is this Tulloch in the parish of (East) Perth - on the northern outskirts of the city of Perth?
JAP
-
I'm not sure about Tulloch. The only one that I'm familiar with is near Dingwall.
I've just found this though:
http://www.residential-property-scotland.co.uk/sale_central/pdf/ABE080042.pdf
It's a small row of houses near Aberfeldy called Tulloch of Ballechin.
Gadget
-
Nearest that I can find on Streetmap is this:
Click for Map (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/oldmap.srf?x=293585&y=753430&z=120&sv=293585,753430&st=4&ar=Y&mapp=oldmap.srf&searchp=oldsearch.srf&lm=0)*
To summarize:
Christian Stewart's parents were Charles Stewart and Christian Scrimigeur of Drumshannachan
Charles Stewart's parents - Duncan Stewart and Christian McGrigor of Weem (possibly later of Tomchellie)
Christian Scrimigeur's father - Alexander Scrimigeur of Tulloch (east of Aberfeldy?)
Gadget
Edit - Map link changed to Ballechin :)
-
Gadget,
Excellent find.
Go to Ballechin on Streetmap - it's a few km east of Edradynate but unfortunately Tulloch doesn't show.
However, on the John Thomson 1832 map there's Mill Tullich (sic) just next to Balinchin (sic).
JAP
PS: Not too far from the Edradynate Estate! And not too far for Charles to come courting from Tomchellie.
Later edit: On the John Thomson map, Mill Tullich is located at a spot which would be about half-way between Pitnacree and Ballechin on Streetmap.
-
That's an even better location. I was searching around Aberfeldy itself. I'll update my map link
:)
PS - I'm going up in a few weeks time. I might be able to do a slight detour off the A9 and take some photos
Added - I've just found this:
The place name comes from the Gaelic word "tulach," meaning a "hillock."
I always thought it meant something like Brae
-
Hi
yes gadget you are right about the death certs.
John's parents - William Stewart and Dorothy, m.s McIntosh.
Christian's parents - Charles Stewart and Christian Scrimgeor/n.
and on both certs its John Stewart -Son that is the informant.
Suz x
-
Gadget,
There are some photos of the area on:
www.geograph.org.uk
I was thinking that you might be able to go and spook yourself at Ballechin House. :P
"Ballechin House was considered the most haunted house in Scotland with its sightings and sounds. Animals reacted to these. Parapsychologists investigated. There is the legend ... "
See:
http://www.dark-stories.com/eng/the_ballechin_house.htm
But then I read the legend - unfortunately the house was demolished in 1963!
The link you found to a site re a cottage for sale at Tulloch of Ballechin gives good directions to it. However, it says that the row of four cottages are thought to date from the late 19th century; I wonder whether there are any earlier buildings nearby.
JAP
-
I'll make sure that I take a bottle of water with a spray attatchment then ;D
A couple of possibles for marriages of Alexander Scrimgeor (IGI extracted). Both Dull:
8 December 1781 to Nelly Scrimgeor
12 November 1785 to Girsal McFarlan
Nothing on Duncan Stewart/ Christian McGrigor/McGregor so far.
Gadget
-
Hi Suz,
I wouldn't worry too much about possible errors in death certificates - they are notoriously unreliable.
And remember, John (born 1855) probably knew only one of his grandparents - Charles STEWART - and even he died when John was only 9.
I'd be pretty confident that John's parents were Wiliam STEWART & Grizel/Grace MCINTOSH (as per reply #26).
I looked for Grace's death on SP and found it in 1855. I usually resist the temptation but this being an 1855 cert ...
1855 Deaths in the Parish of Little Dunkeld in the County of Perth
Name:
Stewart Grace
Sex:
Female
Age:
78 years
Where Born and how long in this District:
Glenalbert, Parish of Little Dunkeld. Resided in the district where the Death occurred all her life.
Parents' Names and Occupation:
John MacIntosh, Farmer, Deceased. Bell MacIntosh, maiden surname Macintosh, Deceased
If Married to Whom:
William Stewart, Labourer, Deceased
Issue in Order of Birth; their Names and Ages:
1. John Stewart 50 years
2. Alexander - 48 . do
3. Donald - 46 . do dec
4. Janet - 44 do dec
5. William . 42 . do dec
6. Bell - 40 . do
7. David - 38 . do dec
8. Dorothy - 36 . Dec
When Died:
August Twenty Seventh, 1h pm 1855
Where Died:
Glenalbert, Parish of Little Dunkeld
Cause of Death
Stroke of the body. No medical attendant.
Where Buried
Burial Ground of Logierait as certified by Chas Fraser(?) Undertaker
Signature of Informant
(Signed) John Stewart, son
When and where registered, and Signature of Registrar
28th August 1855 at Little Dunkeld. (Signed) Ross Gow, Registrar
All of the above children are in the IGI (extracted or submitted) except Dorothy.
John (1805), Alexander (1807), Donald (1810), Janet (1812), William (1815), Bell (1819), David (1822).
Father is given as William/Wm. STEWART.
Mother is given as Girzel/Grizel/Grisel/Grace MCINTOSH/MC INTOSH.
JAP
-
oh wow!
now i see why you get excited for a 1855 certificate ..so much more info. once again thanks for all the work you have done.
Suz x
-
That's the first 1855 death cert that I've come across. As Suz says, wow! It's even better than the 1855 births.
It might also explain the mix up with the Dorothy
A bit more on the Srimgeors:
A more complete set of OPR banns/marriages on SP - all variations of Alex Scrim*ge* (1750- 1795) (for parents of Christian Scrimgeor - m Charles Stewart)
In Dull:
10 Nov 1753 - Mary Morison
12 Dec 1753 - Ann McPherson (James Alexander)
8 Dec 1785 - Nelly Scrimgeor
12 Nov 1785 - Girsal McFarlane
In Logierait:
7 Aug 1871 - Elizabeth Robertson) These two are probably banns
17 August 1782 - Isobel Robertson) for the same people (Elizabeth=Isobel)
Gadget
-
yes I was getting a little mixed up with the "Dorothy"
Gadget what is the difference with an actual marriage and the banns?
suz
-
Hi suz :)
JAP is pretty good at Scottish marriages but not sure if she's not away to her bed by now.
Before a marriage could take place in the C of Scotland (and England for that matter), it was usual for Banns to be Proclaimed in the parish(es) of the couple three times before they could marry. This was to make a public statement of their contract to marry and to allow for any objections to their marriage. They could then marry.
The OPRs are more often than not entries for these Proclamations (with successive dates) rather than the marriage itself. If you are lucky, the marriage date might be given in the entry as well.
Gadget
-
Thanks gadget. Its only the banns that I have mostly seen then!!
-
I have found a marriage on LDS for the parents of Grace/Grizel Mcintosh (John Stewart's mother),
they are John Mcintosh and Isobel Mcintosh married 16 may 1773 Little Dunkeld
Suz
-
unfortunately I cant find a Christian Scrimgeour* with a father called Alexander on Scotlands People :(
suz
-
Unfortunately. so far, neither can I. This is all I've found:
I've just peeped at Charles Stewart and Christian Scrimigeor's marriage entry of 1811, Logierait.
Charles is described as Wright in Torrchelie/Tomchelie and Christian as daughter of Alexr Scrimguer in Tulloch
Gadget
-
this is all i can find at the moment but it looks unlikely
Christian Scrimgeour
born 28 DEC 1794
Christening: 04 JAN 1795 Logierait, Perth
parents: ROBERT SCRIMGEOUR
ANN SCRIMGEOUR
Christening: 14 JUN 1810 Little Dunkeld, Perth,
parents: JAMES SCRIMGEOUR
ANNE MC KENZIE
-
Don't think it's that one - the banns entry does not support it and tha Banns shows that she married Charles Stewart in 1811 - on SP and the IGI.
Not all the records have survived so it looks as if 'our ' Christian Scrimigeour's has not survived or was not entered.
Gadget
PS - I think a read of the Kirk Sessions minutes might be the best way forward with this line. There are so many Srimigeours and Stewarts in the area and we're missing births to Charles and Christian from 1811- 1820 :-\
-
oh wow!
now i see why you get excited for a 1855 certificate ..so much more info. ...
Suz,
Eat your heart out!
My genealogical research started in Victoria, Australia.
We had all that sort of info on death certs (statutory registration started in 1854 1 July 1853 - not sure what current certs have). Historical certs are like Scotland 1855 with the following variations:
- hour of death was not stated
- it asked where born and how long in the Australian Colonies stating which
- it asked not only to whom married but also when and at what age
- it asked when, as well as where, buried and also asked the names of the minister of religion and witnesses of the burial
That said, they can still be misleading!
The one I'm just looking at was my Ggran. Informant was her second husband and he made no mention of her first marriage or of the seven children of that marriage (one of whom was my Gran) - he mentioned only their own marriage and the two children of it!
JAP
Much later edit: Solely to correct starting date of Statutory Registration in Victoria.
-
oh my god JAP thats unbelievable! I am expecting to go to Edinburgh on Wednesday so if you need a look up for anything then let me know.
Suz x
-
Suz,
That's most kind of you.
But I think I have most of the available information - I've been battling away at this for many years! And over the years I've had help from very kind people on earlier forums (including the long defunct ScotlandsPeople Discussion Group and even on other unrelated forums ).
However, on this thread ADP's post added much information re my own ancestors. They initially caused me enormous puzzlement by sometimes being in Perthshire and sometimes in Stirlingshire (it transpired that they lived in Kippen and surrounding areas and obviously hadn't moved). Now all is revealed - as ADP's explanation and those old maps show clearly. My people hadn't moved - it was their counties and parishes which had moved!
Have fun in Edinburgh! The only time I had the pleasure of looking at the records there I managed to follow up entirely the wrong family :-[
All the best,
JAP
PS: Yes, the records from Victoria, Australia really are great!
-
I have found a marriage on LDS for the parents of Grace/Grizel Mcintosh (John Stewart's mother),
they are John Mcintosh and Isobel Mcintosh married 16 may 1773 Little Dunkeld
Suz
Hi Suz,
I wouldn't worry too much about possible errors in death certificates - they are notoriously unreliable.
And remember, John (born 1855) probably knew only one of his grandparents - Charles STEWART - and even he died when John was only 9.
I'd be pretty confident that John's parents were Wiliam STEWART & Grizel/Grace MCINTOSH (as per reply #26).
I looked for Grace's death on SP and found it in 1855. I usually resist the temptation but this being an 1855 cert ...
1855 Deaths in the Parish of Little Dunkeld in the County of Perth
Name:
Stewart Grace
Sex:
Female
Age:
78 years
Where Born and how long in this District:
Glenalbert, Parish of Little Dunkeld. Resided in the district where the Death occurred all her life.
Parents' Names and Occupation:
John MacIntosh, Farmer, Deceased. Bell MacIntosh, maiden surname Macintosh, Deceased
If Married to Whom:
William Stewart, Labourer, Deceased
Issue in Order of Birth; their Names and Ages:
1. John Stewart 50 years
2. Alexander - 48 . do
3. Donald - 46 . do dec
4. Janet - 44 do dec
5. William . 42 . do dec
6. Bell - 40 . do
7. David - 38 . do dec
8. Dorothy - 36 . Dec
When Died:
August Twenty Seventh, 1h pm 1855
Where Died:
Glenalbert, Parish of Little Dunkeld
Cause of Death
Stroke of the body. No medical attendant.
Where Buried
Burial Ground of Logierait as certified by Chas Fraser(?) Undertaker
Signature of Informant
(Signed) John Stewart, son
When and where registered, and Signature of Registrar
28th August 1855 at Little Dunkeld. (Signed) Ross Gow, Registrar
All of the above children are in the IGI (extracted or submitted) except Dorothy.
John (1805), Alexander (1807), Donald (1810), Janet (1812), William (1815), Bell (1819), David (1822).
Father is given as William/Wm. STEWART.
Mother is given as Girzel/Grizel/Grisel/Grace MCINTOSH/MC INTOSH.
JAP
-
I have found a marriage on LDS for the parents of Grace/Grizel Mcintosh (John Stewart's mother),
they are John Mcintosh and Isobel Mcintosh married 16 may 1773 Little Dunkeld
Suz
Hello The Grizell McIntosh you mentionnis the sister of my great great great grandfather Robert McIntosh born GlenAlbert Logeriate via dalgusie in 1782
There parets are correct as above John McIintosh .b.1746 johns father was William McIntosh .b.1712 & his father is Donald Mcintosh .b.circa 1680 he married Jonet Robertson of little dunkeld who apperas to be the daughter of John Robertson heir of GlenAlbert ... for further information & research please email me direct at.... (*)
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Hi Jaiya
I have sent you a pm!
Suzie
-
Hi Suzie thanks for the reply... I have a lot of information on Grizal McIntosh family & ancestors ..her brother was Robert McIntosh .b.30.1.781 at GlenAlbert
he came to Australia as the Bandmaster for Governer MacQuarrie in 1814 & his descendents are many ...I have been researching & documenting this line for a number of years..This McIntosh family of Glenalbert descend from the 2 well documented mackintosh lines that lead back & descend from the Earl of Fife Shaw Mac Duff
one line is the MComie Mackintosh line & the other is the Farquarson Mackintosh line...... Re : Grizel & Roberts if we go back 8 generations from them we find that their 5th great grandparents we John MCComie (McIntosh ) ( & Janet Farquarson ( McIntosh ) .
( johns brother is Robert McComie the 4th Chief of McComie Mackintosh who got killed by cattle rustlers & the his brother John becomes the 5th Chief of clan...
& Janet Farquarson McIntosh is the daughter of William Farquarson McIntosh
who is the son of the famous Findley Mor Farquarson who was killed at the battle of Pinkie.....that Farquarson part of the family owend Balmoral Castle If you look on the net for the web site called the CLAN OF THE CAT ..run by the late Kennetn McIntosh ( who is my 11th cousin)...you can see a lot of history about these famlies..unfortunlety Kenneth recently passed away,& our most recent research has not bee posted as yet, I am still documenting it....if you look under the heading of Mcintosh of Australiaon on the CAT site you will see me listed as Denis Johnson (also know as Jaiya)as a Clan of the Cat Society researcher
Suzie you can also go to another web site called the McComie Clan Gathering & ask to join ( its a private site, you can mention my name )& when you are excepted you can get to me direct by my email its listed there ... hope to hear from you soon... also re the Stewarts & Robertson connections these famlies have been internmarring for a number of generations & I have lost more info on this.............................
o
-
Good evening all
Discovered your site last week and have been trying to get my head round the Stewart line - the reason being that my grandmother was Helen Ann Stewart b.1886 Caputh d. 1940 Dunkeld, her parents were John Stewart b.1855 Little Dunkeld and Helen Ann Laird b.1855 d. 1929.
Attached is a family photo of three Stewart generations round about the time my grandmother got married - as this is a first post I will wait and see what the response is! I have concentrated on the other lines in the family over the last twenty years as true to what someone has said in the posts Dunkeld and surrounding areas are a Stewart nightmare for those chasing their forefathers - however its now time to bite the bullet.
Hopefully I may be able to contribute to the discussion in the future!
Kind regards to all
Bermadoobob
-
Bermadoobob...welcome to RootsChat :)
Look forward to your contributions!
Monica
-
Evening Monica
A question! I posted a query on the site in November 2013 and was hoping for a reply but to no avail. I am a new member and I have to make three postings prior to making a PM which I quite understand, however it looks as if all contributors have gone dormant! Is there anyway that they can be given a "nudge" in the direction of these pages to review them and hopefully start the ball rolling again!
I was brought up in Dunkeld and still have family locally who are also interested in the family history and would possibly be able to investigate any queries.
Appreciate this is a long shot but thought it was worth asking!
Kind regards
Bermadoobob (aka Grant) :)
-
Hi Grant
People receive an email when a new post is made on a thread they have contributed to. The email notification goes to the email account that they have registered on RootsChat. Over time though a number of things can happen. For example, people can change email providers and not be receiving notifications. Sometimes also in error, people can click on the wrong bit and disable notifications etc.....
To find out the last time someone was on line, just click on their user name on the l/h side. Up comes the user's profile page and on this you can tell the last time that user was active on RC.
Good luck with your research :)
Monica
-
Many thanks for your info Monica - all makes sense now!
Kind regards
Grant
-
Evening all - wonder if anybody had picked up my previous posting from 23 Nov '13 regarding the Grizzel/Grace Stewart thread. Would be interested in a chat about the Stewarts, my 94 year old uncle ( Helen Ann Lairds son) has some distant memories of an Auntie Bell who lived above old Blair, he used to stay with occasionally - would like to dig a bit further with him to see if he has any further memories.
Kind regards
Bermadoobob
-
Hi Grant,
I've been researching my ancestral Stewart family around Dalguise for a while now. I believe William (husband of Grace McIntosh) is listed on the Stewart Atholl census in 1817, along with 2 of his brothers. They are recorded as descending from the Cairney branch, which would make them related in some way to the owners of the Dalguise estate. I wonder, would your Uncle have knowledge of his family being related to the historical Lairds of Dalguise? It must go back quite a few generations, but I'm just wondering if a story might have been passed down?
many thanks,
Jason.
-
Hi Jason
Nice to hear from you, unfortunately my uncle died two months ago being the last of nine brothers, there is a sister still alive although I doubt if she knows anything. In the days after the funeral I spent some time around the Dalguise/Logierait area trying to locate the farm /cottage known as Glenalbert and eventually found it and had a chat with the owners daughter. Unfortunately she did not know much of its history re the Stewarts, as I am sure you are aware the Stewarts were well established in the area up as far as Blair Atholl across to the Aberfeldy area and down to Caputh - also where mention is made of Dunkeld in records it seems to be the Diocese of Dunkeld they are referring to not the village of Dunkeld. There seems to have been two branches of the Stewarts one either side of the Tay valley and I think this is where a lot of the problems arise with common names. I have a cousin who lives nearby who has recently become interested in FH and hopefully we will be able to dig a bit deeper as time permits.
Sorry I could not answer your question however will update this thread as and when more information becomes available.
Kind regards
Grant
-
HI Bermadoobob
I just received an email from Roots dated 26.2.2016 alerting me of your posting here.
I was in contact with Suzie Stewart who originally posted on here re the Stewarts we were communicating on email, but I have lost contact with her. maybe she got a new email address. Suzie is the great x3 or 4 granddaughter of Grizell Stewarts (Nee McIntosh) this Grizell McIntosh is the sister of my great x3 grandfather Robert McIntosh of Glenalbert Little Dunkeld.
Now regarding the Stewarts of Little Dunkeld the main line there is the Stewarts of Dalgusie. ( of Dalgusie House ) there is a lot of documentation available on the net about this line. they are also married in to the Stewarts of Kinnard with is just close by near Logeriate.
There is also the Stewarts of Ladywell in Little Dunkeld just next to Glenalbert this line is from James Stewart 1st of Ladywell who was beheaded in about 1650.
& there is also the Stewarts of Bellichan close by who are also married in on the female line line to the Stewarts of Dalgusie.
Regarding the photo you posted I think I have seen that pic before also. possible connected with Susie Stewart mentioned above the great x 3 or 4th grand daughter of Grisell Stewart (nee McIntosh) I am not sure if it was from her.
ALSO If Suzie Stewart happens to see this post Suzie I am Denis Johnson of Australia aka Jaiya on this forum. Please get in contact with me again as I have a lot more information to relay to you.
& Bermadoobob I would suggest looking at the Mcfarlane & Clan Genealogies website it covers many of these families .
Thanks Denis P Johnson Aka Jaiya
-
Hellloooo Denis! ;D
...such a long time since we last spoke, I will PM you!
Suzie x
-
HI Suzzi Good to make contact with you again, I need to speak with you about more research please email me please thanks Denis. I just found your other msg right now & I tried to reply but this site would not let me. as it said that I had already replied .......so I came back to this msg I posted to you to modify it .. Do you still have the same email address that you had before ? if so I will try email you there. (I tried to email you a few years back but got no response )
& please just refresh my memory is it Glasgow where you work because if I cant get to you on your old email I will try email you at work . Ooooo you have had some big changes happening in your life also ,Congratulations on your soon to come wedding..
I have also some new news for you, I have been back & forth to Thailand over the last years..& I have a new partner named Sasi she is Thai & we have a 2.5 year old son named Indiana . We are still living at my farm property here in Oz . I will try email you today at your old email address. & also In regards to the post by Bermandoobob regarding his & your Stewart line I have been looking at it over the last days trying to work it out & I think he may be related to you.. I will do some more research & get back to him on here soon. Good to hear from you Suzie lots of love.