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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Selkirkshire => Topic started by: Chaltis on Thursday 05 February 09 12:52 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I've been investigating one of my ancestors who has been a problem tracing. She is Agnes, the wife of my great-great-uncle Walter Lockie, born in Canada in about 1855 so I have no birth or baptism record for her.
Her father, William Hogg, b. 1821 in Selkirk, joined the 54th Regiment of Foot, and was sent to Canada with his regiment. Whilst there he married a Margaret Macdonald, born in Canada in about 1833, and they had a child there (my great-great-aunt Agnes).
The regiment moved from Canada to Gibraltar in 1855 very soon after her birth. Then Margaret came to Selkirk (maybe while William went to Gibraltar) where their first son, William, was born in 1857 (William snr wasn't present - he was probably still with his regiment). Then the regiment returned to England, to the garrison town of Colchester, where 3 more children (Thomas, Rebecca, and Walter) were born between 1862 and 1866.
Then finally, the family returned to Selkirk on William's retirement from the Army, and I see them for the first time on the 1871 census. Margaret died in 1901, and William in 1910. The family don't appear on the 1861 census either in Selkirk or Colchester.
William Hogg was the son of Thomas Hogg, b. 1779, and Agnes Angus, b. 1782, Selkirk.
I'd like to find the birth or baptism of Agnes and it's proving a problem.
Some very helpful Canadian researchers on rootschat have probably found the marriage of William and Margaret in Quebec in April 1853, but no-one has yet found any record of Agnes.
One possibility is that whilst she wasn't registered in Scotland, she might have been baptised after 1855 in Selkirk. I have accounts on SP and Ancestry but haven't been able to find post-1855 baptisms anywhere.
Can anyone please advise me where to find post-1855 baptisms for Selkirk?
Or, and this would be wonderful, does anyone have any more information on Agnes Hogg, b. ABT 1855 in Canada, m. (1) Walter Lockie in Selkirk 1878, m. (2) Hugh Donoughie in Selkirk 1902.
Regards, Chaltis
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Hi Chaltis,
Ok I have been doing a wee but of fishing this afternoon on this family. To explain first though when the official registration started in 1855 the church of Scotland where no longer required to take note of every birth, marriage and death in their parish however in some places, as the books where not full, they carried on filling in the same book for the baptisms in their congregation and only sent it to Edinburgh when it was full. These are now the OPR’s, which you have been searching on Scotland’s people (however their index only goes to 1854). This practice occurred more often in smaller places so I had a wee look on the IGI (who generally indexed until the end of the books) for Selkirk and there are some baptisms post 1855 which have been indexed but sadly Agnes Hogg is not one of them.
This is by no means conclusive as there are only a few names so it may be worth looking at the end of the OPR roll to check she is not there. The next Church of Scotland book does not start until 1857 I’m afraid, although perhaps Agnes was baptised when her brother was?
Do you know what church the family went to? On a marriage certificate it would say “according to the bands of the…”
There would be several churches in Selkirk at the time all with separate baptism records. These books are mainly in Edinburgh at the National archives; un-indexed I’m afraid!
This link will take you to the NAS catalogue: http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/
Click search, leave all fields blank except the reference code and put in CH3/1229 then press search again, now click Display Catalogue results, click the reference and that’s the ones you are looking for.
There are still some records with the churches so you could write a very nice letter to the minister and ask if he could have a look for you.
Having said all this I would suggest a different starting point, the British army have there own birth, marriage and death records so I would try there first as they are all indexed! They are held in London (well actually they may be outside London now, can’t remember but down south???) Anyway there is an index in Edinburgh as well as some other Libraries and I believe find my past may have an on-line index to them.
Rootschat has an Armed forces section, I’m sure somebody there would be able to tell you how to find an index;
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,300.0.html
I know this is long and complicated but I hope it explains what you need to know, just ask if there is anything I’ve missed.
Emma
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Hi Emma,
Many thanks for all that useful information.
When Agnes Hogg married Walter Lockie (13 Jun 1878) it was at the Manse, Selkirk, after banns, according to the forms of the established Church of Scotland. Her father and mother married in Canada and the best information I have is that it was in Quebec, Canada, in the Anglican church (Saint Paul's Mariners) - I don't expect there was a Church of Scotland presence in Quebec.
Thanks for the tips. I'll follow them all up and start by posting an enquiry in the Armed Forces rootschat forum.
I've searched the IGI and SP for post-1855 baptisms, so next I'll try the NAS.
Regards, Chaltis
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My husband will be in Edinburgh on Monday, I’ll get him to check the end of the microfilm roll for you, if they where church of Scotland that’s where she’ll be.
Let me know how you get on,
Emma
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I've just checked the TNA Kew on-line catalogue, and, unfortunately, there isn't a record for William HOGG, in the WO97 series at least. That's not to say that there isn't a relevant military record for him, just that the indexes to these other record series aren't on-line.
Unfortunately the GRO REGIMENTAL BIRTH INDICES (1761 to 1924) available on a pay-per-view basis at findmypast.com don't show an Agnes ....... of the 5 kids the only one shown is Thomas, born 1862 Colchester, - I'm assuming this is the same Thomas as the date is correct and the regiment is the 54th of Foot.
Sounds like the relevant regimental returns didn't survive, or weren't kept very well !
Note that the earliest Service Records held by GROS in Edinburgh are 1881. From that date onwards, copies of the regimental returns which were sent to GRO and which contained info on soldiers who were 'Scotch' were sent up to GROS in Edinburgh, and can be viewed on-line.
ibi
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Many thanks Emma, that's very kind of you, and your husband.
Regards, Chaltis
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Hi ibi,
Many thanks for looking up Agnes on Findmypast. Yes, the Thomas, b. 1862, you found is the son of William and Margaret. There's also a civil registration for him (and Rebecca and Walter), so it looks as though either the regimental records are incomplete or William didn't always register the births of his children with the military authorities.
I've looked at TNA catalog myself and also couldn't find any record of William Hogg, but I think the index isn't on-line for this series. Maybe I should visit Kew one day [note: add to my to-do list] ??!!?
Regards, Chaltis
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Hi ibi,
Many thanks for looking up Agnes on Findmypast. Yes, the Thomas, b. 1862, you found is the son of William and Margaret. There's also a civil registration for him (and Rebecca and Walter), so it looks as though either the regimental records are incomplete or William didn't always register the births of his children with the military authorities.
I've looked at TNA catalog myself and also couldn't find any record of William Hogg, but I think the index isn't on-line for this series. Maybe I should visit Kew one day [note: add to my to-do list] ??!!?
Regards, Chaltis
Hi Chaltis
Nae prob.
I only looked up Thomas and the others to see if their was any matching 54th of Foot record. And, to be honest, for my part, being interested in seeing what form these indexes take, as it's the first time I've had the chance to use a 'real' event as the basis for a search.
It wasn't so much a question of choice on the father's part. His serjeant would probably hear of the birth and pass the info up the line !
Given his discharge in the late 1860s I'd be surprised is there wasn't a WO97 record if one exists, but must confess that I haven't lately checked whether TNA have got up to the late 1860s yet for the on-line WO97 index.....
It would be a bit of a long shot anyway if such a WO97 or related series record gave you the level of detail that you're seeking.
ibi
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Chaltis
Have we got our dates right because in the Auld Kirkyard selkirk is the following"Sacred to the memory of THOMAS HOGG born at Newhouse Ettrick 26th January 1772 died at Selkirk 28th May 1862 AGNES ANGUS his wife born at selkirk 28th March 1782 died 23rd December 1863 aged 81yrs also ANGUS HOGG their daughter who died 3rd October 1873 aged 65yrs also Margaret, John,James their children who died in infancy.(I have a photo of headstone.
In Brierylaw Cemetery selkirk there is an Agnes Angus Hogg Tait died in 1999 aged 100yrs.There is another with a canadian slant-John Hogg and Isabel Davidson their daugher Mary Hogg died Regina cananda 14-1-10 1919 aged 42 and Janet Hogg who died Vancouver 24-12-1927 aged 38yrs.(maybe no connection)
Ther is a Andrew Rutherford with a much loved wife ELIZABETH LOCKIE HOGG who died 23rd Dec 1982 aged 93yrs.and lastly a Walter Lockie died 3-6-1945 aged 81yrs with a wife Margaret Scott died 23--4-1959 aged 85yrs and several children.
There are six Hoggs on the !st war memorial including a william hogg KOSB
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chaltis
sorry line three should read also AGNES HOGG their daughter NOT Angus Hogg
Hope all this helps
alan
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Hi Alan,
Thanks very much for that. Sorry I'm being a bit slow but could you point me at where the dates are wrong.
I've got the Selkirk graveyard MIs on CD from the Borders FHS, and obtained a bit of Hogg history from them - there were a lot of Hoggs around at that time.
The Thomas Hogg you mention (b. 1772, m. Agnes Angus, d. 1862) is William Hogg's father (William was born 1821). In fact Thomas and Agnes had 9 children, including the Agnes Hogg who died in 1873 but never married.
I've got William Hogg's death registration entry from SP which says William died 18 Mar 1910, was the son of Thomas Hogg and Agnes Angus (both deceased), and husband (widower) to Margaret Mcdonald.
William Hogg and Margaret Mcdonald had 5 children (Agnes b. abt 1855, William b. 1857, Thomas b. 1862, Rebecca b. 1864, and Walter b. 1866). Agnes Hogg (b. abt 1855) married Walter Lockie in 1878. I've got the marriage registration entry from SP. Walter Lockie (b. abt 1855) was the son of Hugh Lockie and Helen Fairbairn.
The Walter Lockie you mention, who married Margaret Scott and died in 1945, was the son of George Lockie and Ann Armstrong and was born abt 1864. George Lockie was Hugh's brother.
I've also noticed Agnes Angus Hogg Tait and Elizabeth Lockie Hogg in the graveyard listing but not traced them yet - more items on my "to do" list.
Regards, Chaltis
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Many thanks to all who contributed to this thread, and I'll now close it as Completed. Chaltis.
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Hi Chaltis,
Sorry for delay. My husband had a look and found nothing unfortunately, how’s your search going?
Emma
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Hi Emma,
Please pass my thanks to your husband for looking.
I've decided to put Agnes Hogg on hold for the moment, and it's possible I'll never find her baptism for a number of reasons. However, I've got lots of other lines to investigate and plenty of other puzzles to solve.
I've got a holiday booked to visit Selkirk in June and will spend some time visiting the local graveyards in Hawick, Galashiels, Kelso, etc.
Regards, Chaltis
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Hi Chaltis
I've been dipping back into my family history research and came across your post. Agnes Hogg is my Great Great Grandmother. I don't have any more information on her birth records but I do have on her death records and her Father William Hogg's military records including a photo of him. More than happy to share with you if your still interested?
Jan
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Many thanks Jan.
I've sent you a personal message.
Chaltis
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Thank you for replying, yes I've got your personal message but I'm not allowed to answer you until I've posted 3 things on this board so bear with me. I definitely have more info on the Hoggs for you on Agnes Hogg's father William and back from there. Agnes Hogg and Walter Lockie's daughter Helen Fairbairn Lockie had 3 children with Robert McLaren Finney - Agnes & Mary but also Helen Lockie Finney (who I don't see on your info) she was my Grandmother. Fascinating stuff, like you say takes a while to get back up to speed!
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Hi Jan
Sorry, I didn't realise that limit existed.
However, you've now got my website address, and on it there's a contact page for you to email me directly.
Chaltis
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I've just come across a 3G-Grandfather of mine John Hogg b1822 in Selkirkshire, was this a brother of William b1821?
This John Hogg raised a smile because in 1846 he married an Alison Cowe.
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"I've just come across a 3G-Grandfather of mine John Hogg b1822 in Selkirkshire, was this a brother of William b1821?"
Thanks you - it looks like we are distantly related. John Hogg could well have been William's brother. I have children Thomas (b1819), John, James, William (b1822) and Margaret (b1823) born around that time, but I have no birth/baptism for John and James. Can you please provide birth/baptism data for him, and his marriage to Alison Cowe, or point me to an online tree?