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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: groat on Friday 06 February 09 10:52 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone tell me how to trace the service records of these two soldiers (my great-grandfather and grandfather)?
Here’s what I know.
Patrick McDonald was a Trooper (Private?) in the 10th Hussars (according to family papers) or possibly 21st Hussars (according to his wife’s death certificate). According to the 1891 census he was born in Belfast about 1841 but in the 1911 census this has changed to Castlebar, County Mayo in 1840. In May 1870 he married Bridget Brangan, born County Clare c 1844, in Brighton, East Sussex. At the time of his marriage Patrick was resident in Preston Cavalry Barracks, Brighton. In 1871 Bridget was living with her mother in Brighton with no mention of Patrick who was presumably away soldiering. Bridget had four children born in 1872 in Colchester, 1873 in Canterbury, 1878 in Matra, India and 1882 back in Brighton. In 1891 the whole family was living together in Brighton with Patrick now a Pensioner. !n 1901 he and his wife were in an old people’s home in Old Shoreham Road, Hove, Sussex. Bridget remained there till her death in 1917 but by 1911 Patrick was apparently an inmate in Steyning Workhouse. According to (not very reliable) family papers, Patrick died in 1924 in Chelsea Hospital and was buried in Brookwood Military Cemetery, Woking, but I haven’t been able to verify any of those facts (date, place of death, place of burial). Also according to family papers, Patrick's father (or more likely grandfather) Walter McDonald, fought at Waterloo, but maybe I should post that in a separate topic.
John McDonald was born in 1978 in Matra India. In 1905, possibly on leave from his posting at The Curragh, County Kildare, he married Mary Dorette Sophie Flora McDonald (or possibly MacDonald) at a Catholic Church in Kensington High St. He (or rather she!) had 5 children born The Curragh 1908, Guildford 1909 and 1911, Preston (Lancashire) 1912 and Blackburn 1913 (my father). In 1905 he was a sergeant in the East Lancashire Regiment. In 1911 his wife was at a military base in Guildford with 3 children but no sign of husband. From family papers I understand he ended WWI as a Lieutenant and Quartermaster but haven’t been able to verify this. He died around 1951 at which time he was a resident Chelsea Pensioner. What happened to him between the end of WWI and his death I don’t know. His wife died aged 37 in 1915 and he apparently had very brief compassionate leave from France to organise his children which he did by scattering them to relatives around the country and, in my father’s case, to an orphanage.
I have been trying to build up a better picture of the careers of these two men but don’t know how to find out about their military records. Can anyone help?
Thank you for reading this far.
Ian
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Hi Ian
Regarding Patrick, surviving service records for men discharged up to 31 Dec 1913 are original documents in series WO97 in Kew. His will be in the box covering McDonalds for men discharged between 1883 and 1900. If you cannot get to Kew you can wait for Findmypast to digitise them. His papers will include all his service, even if he changed regiments.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm
If his papers do not survive you will certainly find him in the Muster Books and Pay Lists (WO12 and 16). To do this you need to know his regiment, and both the regiments you mention appear to have their Depots in Canterbury rather than Brighton. Can you post the names of a few offices from the census so I can look them up in the Army Lists.
John may be harder, as the muster books stop during the 1890s. If his service ended before the end of 1913, and he re-enlisted during WW1, there will be two sets of papers. However if he served for one continuous period there will only be one set, and they will be in the 'WW1' series.
According to the September 1918 Army List there is a Captain J McDonald, QM with the 4th Battalion, attached to the 1/7th Bn of the Gordon Highlanders. He also held the Military Cross. It gives an effective date of 14 Nov 1914. Using that in the LG search I found this - http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28988/supplements/10116
Although on the NA medal index card website I can only find this - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=3972557&queryType=1&resultcount=5
If you have Ancestry you may be able to get this for free. The cards on Ancestry sometimes have addresses on them, which you do not get with the NA scans.
Maybe the 1918 Army List is wrong about the attachment to the Gordons. The 4th Battalion were based in Blackburn.
Ken
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Hello Ken
Thank you very much. This is very helpful. I can see a trip to Kew may be the best solution. From what you say that's where I'll find the Chelsea Pensioner information as well.
What do you mean by "the names of a few offices from the census"?
I've managed to find John McDonald's medal card on Ancestry but I don't understand all its information. It does indeed give his address and on the same side it reads EF9. 29.8.10 (the 10 could just possibly be 20) the last bit clearly being a date but what does EF9 mean?
On the other side in the Roll column it reads OFF 129 followed by a page number. The next row "dittos" this information and the two rows are bracketed and covered by hard to decipher numerical data in the Remarks column. Theatre of war first served in looks like ( 11 and date of entry therein is 1.3.17 followed further across by more numerical data.
Can you throw any light on this?
Thanks again for your help.
Ian
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What do you mean by "the names of a few offices from the census"?
I meant officers. They appear in the Army Lists, so if you list a few we can probably find which regiment they were in.
Ken
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In the censuses where I have found Patrick McDonald he is already a Pensioner (1891, 1901 and 1911). No sign of him or his wife in 1881 when I suspect they were in India with their eldest three children - John McDonald born Matra, India 1878 (I have a photograph of Bridget with a small child and a baby, annotated by an earlier generation family member "thought to be in India"). I cannot find Patrick in 1871 although his wife is in Brighton with her mother. The only Officers I can find potentially associated with Patrick are in Colchester Infantry Barracks in 1861. There are two Patrick McDonalds from Ireland there, one born 1840 the other 1841 so I'm hoping that one of them is "mine"!.
Officers: Samuel Dunning Capt Adj (?) aged 59. RG9; Piece: 1097; Folio: 104; Page: 1; GSU roll: 542753.
Edward C Bicknell Lieutenant aged 25. RG9; Piece: 1097; Folio: 152; Page: 1; GSU roll: 542753
John Smith Nelson Ensign aged 19. RG9; Piece: 1097; Folio: 152; Page: 1; GSU roll: 542753
The children's births appear to place Patrick (or at any rate his wife) in Colchester in 1872, Canterbury 1873, India 1878 and Brighton (perhaps Preston Barracks?) 1882.
Ian
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So glad you've had some positive response to this Ian- I knew you would!
Carol
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Hi Ian
Both Bicknell and Nelson were with the 38th Regiment (1st Staffordshires) at the end of 1861. The Depot was in Colchester while the regiment was in Dinapore, India.
You will need to post a scan of the medal card for McDonald. OFF = Officers, and "(11" is probably (1), meaning France.
Ken
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Hello Ken
I've just got back from holiday.
Thanks for the further info about the officers.
Does the fact that the 38th regiment, 1st Staffordshires were in Colchester in 1861 mean that the Patrick McDonalds listed in the census were attached to that regiment? Would it be normal for one of them ("my" one!) to transfer subsequently to another regiment (10th or 21st Hussars)? I'm trying to assemble all the info I can before embarking on a visit to Kew.
Here's a photograph of Patrick McDonald inscribed on the back "Grandad Mac 10th Royal Hussars (PWO) about 1879"
Also scan of the medal card for John McDonald. (I didn't know I had an MC holder in the family!)
Ian
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Hello Carol
Here's a photo and its inscription of my grandmother, wife of the John McDonald in the previous post. (Since I can't post it on the thread devoted to her).
I don't know whether you may be able to glean any further info from this.
Ian
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Double WOW Ian ;D
Once for the fact that you've got a medal card with an address(rare as hen's teeth)
Twice for that jacket of his- what an intricate pattern of embroidery- I'm sure one of the clever people on here will be able to tell you all about him.
Watching with interest ;)
Carol
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Hi Ian
This link to the LG might be relevant - http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28988/supplements/10116. If you check the LG further you might find when he was transferred to the RAOC and received the honorary Captaincy. The OAC became the ROAC in 1918.
Regarding the MIC, officers had to claim their WW1 medals. Other ranks received them automatically. In the remarks IV is issue voucher and the date 8 Dec 1921 will be when they were sent to him. I am unsure of EF 9, but this probably refers to when they received his claim.
(1) does mean France, and this is extra information, as normally this is usually only with pre 1916 dates to justify the award of the 1914 or 1914-1915 Star. Notice at the very bottom (in red) 10/19 stands for October 1919 and is when the design of this MIC was finalised. It surprises some people how long it took for men to receive their medals.
Ken
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Thank you for that Ken
I've searched the LG with as many combinations as I can think of but can't find anything other than the reference you have posted. Shouldn't I be able to find a citation for his MC somewhere?
The medal card suggests that he didn't go to France until 1917. That seems hard to believe since he must have been a soldier for at least 15-20 years by then (he was already a sergeant when he married in 1905) and oral family history relates he returned from France on compassionate leave when his wife died in 1915. Is it possible to find out what his regiment was doing prior to March 1917?
Or is this the kind of thing I can find out at Kew?
Also where should I be looking to find the type of information information you have provided from the army lists (for example the details about people and regiments at Colchester in 1861)?
Ian
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In the September 1918 Army List he is a Captain with effect 16 January 1918. He is one of about a hundred Asst. Commissaries of Ordnance. There is no mention of where he was stationed. There is also no mention of an MC. That might refer to his surname (?). If he went overseas in 1914 or 1915 there should be a second MIC proving his entitlement to one of the stars. His experience may mean he was more valuable working at home. He may have worked at a munitions factory.
If he was still serving into the 1920s his papers may be with the MOD. Finding an obituary (or a will) will make things a lot easier. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/
Regarding Army Lists, some have been published on CD. Other than that there is a virtual full set in Kew.
Ken
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Regarding the Hussar, if you are going to Kew you can look firstly for his papers in WO97. There will only be one set so they will show all the regiments he was in. If you cannot find these you should look in the Muster Book for the 10th Hussars in 1879, and then work forwards and backwards.
If the date of 1879 is correct he looks too young to have been born in 1840 or serving in 1861. I suggest you post it on the restoration section to see what photo experts think of the date. You should also tell them the size and also a view of the back if you have the original.
Ken
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Hello Ken
The inscription on the back was written by his youngest son (born 1882) for the benefit of his daughter born 1914. The inscription also says "all dates approximate" so there is obviously room for error. All census entries indicate him to have been born in 1841 and he was married in 1870 (although I don't yet have the marriage certificate). I also have a photo of his wife c1870 and again c1874 this time with two small children said to be taken in India. Do you think it's worth posting all these? I don't want to waste anyone's time.
Ian
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There will be people on the photo board that can date a woman's dress for example. The other important thing is any information about the photographer.
But you are asking the wrong person. I wouldn't know a 1880s dress from an 1980s one.
Ken
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Hello again
Anyone still looking at this?
After further research I've found a little more information about Patrick McDonald. He was discharged from the army in Canterbury, August 17th 1881.
I have tracked him down fairly well from then on but am still researching his ancestry.
I have now posted a new topic on the Mayo board.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,474065.msg3336101.html#msg3336101
If anyone can help I would be grateful.
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Hi Ian,
My wife is a direct descendant of Patrick McDonald so we were astonished to see your photos!
Is there any way we can share info via email? To see the address Barclay Road in Fulham appear in your post was amazing too. My Father in law was born there - although not at no. 4.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Colin and Alison King (nee MacDonald).
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Hi Colin,and welcome to Rootschat.
Ian hasn't been on here since May 2017,but as long as he hasn't changed his email address he will be notified that we have both posted here and hopefully be back online.
To be able to send each other personal messages,so you can swop email addresses,you will need to post here at least once more.
Regards
Carol
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Hello Colin
I'd be happy to communicate by email.
What was your father-in law's first name?
And what number Barclay Road? The move from No 4 was (I think) in the 1920s.
Patrick was a McDonald not a Macdonald although one of his sons adopted the Macdonald spelling.
Ian McDonald
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Hi Ian
Great to hear from you!
My Father in law is David MacDonald born 1936, son of Kenneth McDonald (think he changed the spelling), who was son of George McDonald - John’s brother.
My email address is whitseaking@gmail.com.
Any photos of the ancestors would be gratefully appreciated. We don’t have any!
Regards,
Colin